Now batting in the World Series of Pokemon Suspects: Shaymin-S!

[cim]

MetaNite, are you seriously insinuating that (1)shaymin has no textbook counters (it has several!) and that Tyranitar is only not über because some obscure bl pokemon is a textbook counter? Both of those are meaningless (obviosly tyranitar is kept in check by other pokemon)

Ignoring the fact that textbook counters aren't practical or needed, what pissed me off in this debate is that people keep repeating "Shaymin has no counters" when he actually does have some in addition to being checked by all of the top 4.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Metanite, I got to agree with Chris that you're being ridiculous.

Anyway we all know that there is only one real reason Skymin has so many people calling it Uber: Hax Abuse

The only reason people are voting it Uber (whether they admit it or not) is that they hate getting haxed to death by it (which is bound to happen once in a while).

Thinking along the lines of Smogon philosophy and tradition, I have to agree with Chris and the others that banning a pokemon just on that is ridiculous. However I also have to acknowledge that getting haxed is not fun, and we play this game for fun.

I just think that if we were going to really put value on that fact, there are a things a lot worse than skymin. Skymin hax doesn't piss me off nearly as much as Machamp Hax, and quite frankly Jirachi is overall a lot better at abusing serene grace than Skymin could ever hope to be (people really need to try the body slam/iron head sets themselves).

I don't mind banning things to make the game more in the shape we want it, but lets face it there are a lot of pokemon much farther down the rungs who produce headaches that are even worse than skymin.

 

[dr00]

Jirachi is overall a lot better at abusing serene grace than Skymin could ever hope to be (people really need to try the body slam/iron head sets themselves).

man i love that set ;_________;

i don't play shoddy, so i can't comment on the difference, but i chose Iron Head over Zen Headbutt even though Steel is much worse than Psychic simply for the 100% accuracy and 60% > 40% flinch rate.

and i use secret power cos i have no body slam, but yeah. this thing can be really annoying to take down and i can attest to its awesomeness.

 

[Goodbar]

For what it's worth, I think skymin's hax is pretty reliable. Seed flare is basically expected to hit and lower spdef (see stone edge), it's air slash that's the only real controversial move imo. And from my experience one air slash hax is enough to get things in your favor. For example, Blissey switches into seed flare, spdef drops, skymin uses air slash, bliss flinches, now it's in seed flare KO range. Or you're towards end game and a full health salamence comes in on shaymin and you cant handle it with a dance on its hands, so you air slash and get hax and now its in KO range. Shaymin does not quite seem broken but one air slash can turn the game in your favor, seems to me the people for OU underestimate and the people for ubers overestimate ?_?

 

[Tleilax]

For what it's worth, I think skymin's hax is pretty reliable. Seed flare is basically expected to hit and lower spdef (see stone edge), it's air slash that's the only real controversial move imo. And from my experience one air slash hax is enough to get things in your favor. For example, Blissey switches into seed flare, spdef drops, skymin uses air slash, bliss flinches, now it's in seed flare KO range. Or you're towards end game and a full health salamence comes in on shaymin and you cant handle it with a dance on its hands, so you air slash and get hax and now its in KO range. Shaymin does not quite seem broken but one air slash can turn the game in your favor, seems to me the people for OU underestimate and the people for ubers overestimate ?_?

I understand how the flinches can turn the game. However, what needs to be proven is that it's more gamebreaking than Jirachi or Togekiss. Those two not only abuse flinch, they can abuse paralysis to make it even less likely you attack and cripple for the rest of the match. They can also survive if they don't get their way with the flinch. If these are still allowed despite their advantages, then I don't see why Skymin should be banned for doing what others do better.

 

[the_artic_one]

For example, Blissey switches into seed flare, spdef drops, skymin uses air slash, bliss flinches, now it's in seed flare KO range.

You need three flinches to kill Blissey (calcs here).

 

[ViVi]

Since I cant post this in the voting thread, does it seem odd to anyone else that nearly everyone with a badge or is otherwise pretty well known voted OU and most people voting Uber are relativly unknown (making a couple generalizations with those statements)

 

[RBG]

Since I cant post this in the voting thread, does it seem odd to anyone else that nearly everyone with a badge or is otherwise pretty well known voted OU and most people voting Uber are relativly unknown (making a couple generalizations with those statements)

Rag, Maniaclyrasist, Jimbo422, Arin, KD24, JabbaTheGriffin, Imperfectluck, Veteran in Love All voted Uber, nowhere close to nearly everyone

 

[cim]

And many more than them voted OU.

Arin doesn't have a badge.

 

[RBG]

Since I cant post this in the voting thread, does it seem odd to anyone else that nearly everyone with a badge or is otherwise pretty well known voted OU and most people voting Uber are relativly unknown (making a couple generalizations with those statements)

Arin is pretty well known imo

 

[lilyhollow]

I just think that if we were going to really put value on that fact, there are a things a lot worse than skymin. Skymin hax doesn't piss me off nearly as much as Machamp Hax, and quite frankly Jirachi is overall a lot better at abusing serene grace than Skymin could ever hope to be (people really need to try the body slam/iron head sets themselves).

I don't mind banning things to make the game more in the shape we want it, but lets face it there are a lot of pokemon much farther down the rungs who produce headaches that are even worse than skymin.

The biggest problem in my mind is something that Chou pretty much already addressed: people are just going to be biased against new things, period. We painted ourselves into a corner with Skymin by making it a suspect immediately based on little to no practical experience, allowing mostly-baseless hype to somehow propel it to "obviously far superior to/luckier than Togekiss, I mean it has better speed" status. Now that we're looking at almost every untested suspect being almost entirely foreign to us in DP/Pt standard, I personally would call this a problem.

I'm going to be honest and say that I have no idea how proposals to make the voting process a little more exclusive will help the situation (partially because I'm not sure how motivated some of our "ignorant" voters might end up being), but I do think that something needs to be done to counteract the overall pro-ban bias which I think is just an inherent part of a Suspect Test that wants to be as quick and efficient as possible. Whether that's something artificial like a 60/40 majority requirement for something to be deemed Uber, I don't know (that'd be nice actually). Maybe the "checkpoint" system would help us along somehow as well, and the questionable Bold Voting system has been brought up I guess.

I'd personally like to see Stage 3 fleshed out more though-- my current impression based on the little I've read is that it's a nice band-aid fix to some of our current complications, but I'd love for someone to tell me that it's a lot more than that (a thorough, Aldaron-style "pseudo-reset" test would be nice in my opinion).

I kind of had a lot more to say than this but oh well, I guess technically it's a bit off-topic anyway.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Rag, Maniaclyrasist, Jimbo422, Arin, KD24, JabbaTheGriffin, Imperfectluck, Veteran in Love All voted Uber, nowhere close to nearly everyone

Correct me if I'm wrong, but most of these guys are not the most outspoken opponents of skymin. A bunch were more like "If I had to say one, I'd rather see it in Ubers."

 

[dr00]

I kind of had a lot more to say than this but oh well, I guess technically it's a bit off-topic anyway.

i don't see how it's off-topic. or if it is off-topic, i don't think it's unnecessary discussion.

i was thinking earlier how there isn't really a definition of the term "uber" going into this. what exactly is skymin supposed to achieve before reaching uber status, and how much subjectivity is given to the voters.


and then we have comments like this (which i feel are worse than the 6 CM rachi nonsense):

I voted Uber since Shaymin of all forms is banned from Nintendo's official tournaments.

I feel that the most competitive metagame is the one that best prepares us for the worldwide Nintendo tournament. My vote in every suspect poll has adhered to the following ban list:

Non-ToysRUs Dragonite
Mew
Mewtwo
Tyranitar
Lugia
Ho-oh
Celebi
Kyogre
Groudon
Rayquaza
Jirachi
Deoxys (all formes)
Rotom (all formes)
Dialga
Palkia
Giratina
Phione
Manaphy
Darkrai
Shaymin (all formes)
Arceus

is this the kind of rationale we want when people vote?

if the suspect test is made so that people can actually experience a metagame that includes a suspect and therefore make an accurate decision instead of just running off of theorymoning, the integrity of this process is ruined if someone has made a decision beforehand that cannot and will not be changed by any amount of testing.

i'm not necessarily arguing against the reasoning, i'm arguing against the fact that this vote was decided before any suspect testing was even conceived and the suspect test provided nothing for the basis of his decision.

 

[c l e a r]

it is best to leave the single battling and double battle tiers separate though. Although Nintendo still knows Jack about their game, I mean making Wobbuffet to have an absolutely retarded ability is one thing, but... Phione?

Come the fuck on.

 

[ViVi]

Rag, Maniaclyrasist, Jimbo422, Arin, KD24, JabbaTheGriffin, Imperfectluck, Veteran in Love All voted Uber, nowhere close to nearly everyone

Thats why I said 'nearly everyone' not 'everyone' though I guess 'most' would have been a more proper word. There is also alot more 'unknowns' who voted Uber then otherwise, which is the point I was getting at: The people that the Smogon community recognize as being the most skilled and knowledgeable, way more often then not, voted OU. (with the aforementioned exceptions)

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Text.

Chou, you have a way with words. As a Jirachi user I do have to say so myself. Choice Scarf Jirachi with Iron Head 60% of the time prevents leads like Areodactyl and Azelf from setting up SR and can really be quite a headache if your team is not prepared for it. The key words being "if your team is not prepared for it". I mean why not then make Jirachi a suspect because of how it abuses hax worse than Skymin (sarcasm)?

I know and have observed how some players downright refused to adjust their teams accordingly to Skymin. Why? People know I hate SR, but I still adjust to trying to find ways around it. You have to throw your biases aside and adjust or you are simply not willing to adjust to the metagame and that is a hinderance to the progress of these tests.

Try to find a solution when ya complain about something, this helps things go much more smoothly.

 

[MetaNite]

I didn't mean that was Tyranitar's only counter, I was just giving an example, obviusly Hippodown and Gliscor and the like do well too. I know Shaymin-S has counters, but it's not like how a Weavile will never beat a Forretress. Skymin can come on top thanks to hax, over his counters.

For example, similiarly to Scizor it can simply predict to kill the switch in. Tyranitar can always use Aqua Tail, but has to worry about a miss when something like Gliscor comes in. Aqua Tail isn't a sure fire kill on the switch in is what I'm trying to say while Skymin can Earth Power that Heatran switch. I don't why we started comparing Tyranitar and Skymin though, they are quite different. You can't say that Tyranitar would be Uber too if it was new, because we don't know that.

SpecsMin can pretty much 2HKO every Pokemon in the game, so I've heard many times.

And I did state the serene grace abuse as a reason, but obviously there must be more to it if all the people Golbat mentioned voted Uber.

But perhaps I was a little ridiculous... or exaggerating. This whole thread seems to be a matter of opinion.

 

[sbc]

I may be out of context but SpecsMin can 2HKO every pokemon in the game is irrelevant as CBMence does the same thing without having needing luck to half Blissey's SpDef.

 

[cim]

There are plenty of Choice Banders that can effectively 2HKO anything in the game. Nothing can with one move, though, so it doesn't matter.

Also, Specs Skymin can't 2HKO Regice. Boom. Sorry. Paper counter.

Even so, you're completely ignoring that stuff like Choice Band Tyranitar could 2HKO everything in the game if it could run any move, or Choice Band Salamence, or Choice Specs Lucario...

Anyhow, I absolutely fucking love everything Blame Game has ever said because he's right on the money and I want to be his friend now. I do think that a Bold Voting style system would help reduce the rampant pro-ban bias, especially if you get rid of ridiculous arguments like "My old team from before the test couldn't handle it" or "It forces you to carry a counter".

 

[Bogmire]

Also, Specs Skymin can't 2HKO Regice. Boom. Sorry. Paper counter.

Modest Specs Skymin has a 17.42% chance to 2HKO max/max calm Regice if stealth rock is down and leftovers is factored in. It has an 89% chance to 2HKO if a sandstorm is raging. If its against the standard 252 hp/252 def calm regice then Modest Specs Skymin has a 100% chance of 2HKOing with SR down regardless if their is a sandstorm raging or not.

Regice is not a paper counter.

 

[Tangerine]

Modest Specs Skymin has a 17.42% chance to 2HKO max/max calm Regice if stealth rock is down and leftovers is factored in. It has an 89% chance to 2HKO if a sandstorm is raging. If its against the standard 252 hp/252 def calm regice then Modest Specs Skymin has a 100% chance of 2HKOing with SR down regardless if their is a sandstorm raging or not.

Regice is not a paper counter.

Because we all know the Regice player does not recognize the specs and switch to a resist, and Seed flare has a 100% hit rate =)

Come on. not being able to deal with choice itemed Pokemon, especially specs? MODEST skymin? you can do better than that.

 

[Jonathan]

Maybe we wouldn't have had this problem of people voting Skymin as Uber because they didn't want to modify their team to account for it, or because they thought it wouldn't be around for long so why bother making a team with it, had Skymin been introduced to the Smogon community in a different way.

The problem is that pretty much from the moment Skymin appeared on Shoddy, we all knew there was gonna be a suspect test for it in the near future. So although Skymin was technically in OU, many people out there were firmly under the impression that it would only be a matter of time until Skymin was gone, which ultimately affected many peoples' views on Skymin.

And I think part of the problem here is that Smogon made Skymin a suspect the moment it was introduced in September. Had Skymin simply been introduced into OU with no mention of when or even if it would be considered a suspect in the future, I think we would have gotten a much better representation of Skymin's true usage, and thus potential in battle. You can't expect people to treat Skymin in a completely unbiased way when everyone knows there are plans to test it in the future.

Had we left Skymin in OU for a few months before even considering it for a suspect test, I'm positive that reasons like "I would have had to modify my team for it" or "why should I bother making a team for it when there's a good chance it will be gone soon" would not have been brought up in the voting process. How this would affect the outcome is anyone's guess, but at least we'd have a greater proportion of votes based on actual legit reasons.

 

[Bogmire]

Because we all know the Regice player does not recognize the specs and switch to a resist, and Seed flare has a 100% hit rate =)

Come on. not being able to deal with choice itemed Pokemon, especially specs? MODEST skymin? you can do better than that.

yes, modest skymin. Timid is a waste of time as you lose out on the possible 2HKOs on Skarmory and Calm Blissey. The only reason to run Timid on a specsmin is if you really want to outrun Azelf who's usually a lead anyway. You'll still outrun Gengar and most Starmie with Modest.

there really aren't that many resists that can switch into a modest specs seed flare and live after the special defense drop. the only ones I can think of are heatran and registeel (because of clear body)

 

[cim]

Or Dragonite, Crobat, etc.

But come on. Specs? Easy to deal with if you build your team right. And no it's not overcentralizing to pack a basic check. You can even stall Seed Flare out of PP if you're so inclined, but SR usually kills it first.

And who uses Skarm as a Shaymin counter? "It can 2HKO something with roughly 70 HP and Special Defense" wooooooo

Bogmire: Go read SDS's sig.

 

[Bogmire]

Or Dragonite, Crobat, etc.

But come on. Specs? Easy to deal with if you build your team right. And no it's not overcentralizing to pack a basic check. You can even stall Seed Flare out of PP if you're so inclined, but SR usually kills it first.

And who uses Skarm as a Shaymin counter? "It can 2HKO something with roughly 70 HP and Special Defense" wooooooo

Bogmire: Go read SDS's sig.

I stand corrected. And you'd be surprised how many people switch their Skarmory into Skymin, its not the worst counter there is for non specs skymin.

I never said specs skymin was overcentralizing, I was using it to disprove Regice as a paper counter for skymin.