Neither do you. Does that make you a nobody?
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Now batting in the World Series of Pokemon Suspects: Shaymin-S!
- Thread starter Jumpman16
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Everytime I use Seed Flare, it either misses, doesn't get the Sp.Def drop or does get both, but on a weakened Pokemon like Azelf.
I'm not sure where people are getting this 'it flinched me 4 times in a row' stuff from. I tried the 'cheap' tactic and Air Slash only flinched once before I was shot down by Ice Beam.
Obviously the context of the quote is completely improtant here and rather than try and make me look like an ass and make a personal shot at me you could see the part where I thought he said "prominent badged users" rather than "prominent and badged users" or whatever.
By the way, the Scizor thread totally proved my point. People vote against change..
I'm quite appalled at the suspect voting this time around. I had no idea that so many uninformed votes would be cast. Shaymin-S is not an uber. It's annoying, but seriously, read LR's post. It has a 10% chance of defeating Blissey. That's right. 10%.
Specially defensive Zapdos can take it on too, so can Registeel and Regice quite feasibly, although no one uses them. Heatran, Weavile and Mamoswine can revenge kill. Specially defensive Dragonite can beat any version, and isn't even OHKOd by Hidden Power Ice.
A few of the Uber voters are respectable members, but the majority of them are uniformed "newbies" that decided they were going to vote Uber regardless of any findings during their time spent laddering.
Specially defensive Zapdos can take it on too, so can Registeel and Regice quite feasibly, although no one uses them. Heatran, Weavile and Mamoswine can revenge kill. Specially defensive Dragonite can beat any version, and isn't even OHKOd by Hidden Power Ice.
A few of the Uber voters are respectable members, but the majority of them are uniformed "newbies" that decided they were going to vote Uber regardless of any findings during their time spent laddering.
It's really ridiculous. People are voting it uber because they have a personal vendetta against it from the one time it "flinched my +6 CM Jirachi to death". Like skiddle said, although there are a couple of highly regarded members on the uber side, the majority of them are people with <50 posts who joined just to ban Skymin!
As for the voting process, I don't think a suspect should be banned by a simple majority vote. I think there needs to be a large majority of uber votes in order to ban something, somewhere along the lines of 2:1 uber or 5:3 uber. A 51:49 majority is simply not convincing enough to completely ban something.
Innocent until proven guilty. OU until proven Uber.
LR.
EDIT: Just saw the scizor thread. What a joke.
As for the voting process, I don't think a suspect should be banned by a simple majority vote. I think there needs to be a large majority of uber votes in order to ban something, somewhere along the lines of 2:1 uber or 5:3 uber. A 51:49 majority is simply not convincing enough to completely ban something.
Innocent until proven guilty. OU until proven Uber.
LR.
EDIT: Just saw the scizor thread. What a joke.
Even though the Scizor thread is "obviously ridiculous" to just about everyone, I think it does further support an "anti-change" bias. I've heard complaints about Salamence, Trick, Heatran ("is the new Garchomp?"), and now Scizor, all of which received fairly significant improvements whether directly or indirectly due to Platinum move tutors. Obviously I'm not saying "oh see look, everyone would vote Scizor Uber if given half the chance!!!" but let's be honest, if any of these things were just as prevalent since the beginning of DP, we wouldn't even be discussing them.
I'm not even saying that it's unnatural to discuss new things from a "how does this affect the metagame" perspective, but the fact that we'll be testing and discussing future suspects at the same time is going to skew things towards Uber in my opinion. I also do agree with Legacy Raider that a large majority of Uber votes should be needed to make a conclusive decision, but I'm a little worried as to how that might affect the Suspect Test process/the community in general, now that we've apparently established that "Uber = someting we're better off not playing with" (something I personally disagree with).
I'm not even saying that it's unnatural to discuss new things from a "how does this affect the metagame" perspective, but the fact that we'll be testing and discussing future suspects at the same time is going to skew things towards Uber in my opinion. I also do agree with Legacy Raider that a large majority of Uber votes should be needed to make a conclusive decision, but I'm a little worried as to how that might affect the Suspect Test process/the community in general, now that we've apparently established that "Uber = someting we're better off not playing with" (something I personally disagree with).
Guys, you realize when I mention "paper counters" I'm humoring people? So few Pokémon have so few paper counters that an argument that "you need specialized paper counters" is stupid. Perhaps it is time you got over your "counter" mentality. Use checks. Set up your own sweep. Stop looking for textbook, paper, absolutely flawless counters.
I'm a bit frustrated at the careless votes being made. Simply because something is a pest to deal with does not mean we should ban it. At this rate more and more things will be tested and soon our choices will we clawed down to nothing but a small selection of pokes.
When it comes to the voting thread, I think in the future smogon's criteria for voting on whether or not something is uber should be the top X from the standard latter are those able to vote, as those would be the people most experienced with the current metagame.
EDIT:
That was an ignorant comment from me. That is what was in fact done. I saw some complains when reading the voting thread, or at least discussion on what should be done to choose those eligible to vote. Should have first went to the threat that talks about voting. In fact, I should have done that a few days ago because it turns out I would have been, had I posted.
Moral of the story: educate yourself before making foolish statements.
EDIT:
That was an ignorant comment from me. That is what was in fact done. I saw some complains when reading the voting thread, or at least discussion on what should be done to choose those eligible to vote. Should have first went to the threat that talks about voting. In fact, I should have done that a few days ago because it turns out I would have been, had I posted.
Moral of the story: educate yourself before making foolish statements.
just because people are good at Pokemon doesn't make them smart, and people who aren't good at Pokemon aren't necessarily stupid. Changing the skill required to vote wouldn't help much.
Maybe an age limit, over 16 to vote ?_? because seriously, 13 year olds with <50 posts shouldn't be determining the fate of the Pokemon community.
Maybe an age limit, over 16 to vote ?_? because seriously, 13 year olds with <50 posts shouldn't be determining the fate of the Pokemon community.
I don't know if it's that an age limit should be required, but maybe a certain register date? ie, someone must have been a Smogon member for at least 2 months or something, to prevent people from joining, laddering a bit, and voting "uber" because they're annoyed?
Pretty sure anything that can be directly avoided by merely lying won't work out too well in the long run, lol
edit: and the idea is just kind of bad in general too lol
Honestly, the whole theory, "I'm skilled at this game so I know everything about it" is just stupid :(. My brother -SS4Azelf(who quit Pokemon not too long ago)- actually knew enough about the metagame to be considered "intelligent" while he couldn't use a team he made worth shit (I do belive his ladder rating was 1400-ish). I, myself am the same way, but, I just suck at everything else other than knowing the metagame. While on the flip side, you have the people who you never would have expected be qualified to vote for Shaymin-S (like the guy who's 6 CM Jirachi was haxed to death with no Leftovers >.>). That group of people MAY be skilled, but, their knowledge of the metagame is lackluster at the most. Anyone can build a team and use it, I mean, RaikouLover made a RMT which was simple and could be used by anyone to win a few matches. That doesn't make the people who use that team "smart", it just shows that they can build a team and use it right.
;_; Hey, I'm in between that gap.
;_; Hey, I'm in between that gap.
Like post count and age matters
I know at least two 14 year olds that are more capable of making decisions for the community than 90% of the voters that voted
You stole the words right out of my mouth.
I might trust the moderating team + the elite top of the ladder (likes of panamaxis).
Really, is it that easy to just "ladder a bit" to get into the top and be eligible to vote?
I don't think it's as easy as it is made out to be; I consider myself at least moderately intelligent and objective, and I've done at least two battles a day for over a month yet I've never even entered the top 50.
The stats posted in the voting thread are:
"PARAMYLODON | 1,658.30 | 27.73"
It took me quite a span of time (as I said, at least a month) to reach this.
Although, the issue of copying someone else's team who is good, and just using that to ladder is a bad one. I-as I assume is also the case for most everyone else-actually made the team I used myself, as well as continuously modified and tweaked it myself when necessary.
Although I often asked some people if they see any potential things to change, simply for new ideas, I don't believe this would then brand someone as not knowing much.
If it matters, I never used Skymin myself, but have faced it regularly (of course). My vote would have been to "OU", as much as I'd like to not see it's face anymore, I simply don't think it is an uber.
I do agree that some of the people appear suspect within the top 50-not what I would have expected considering how much better they all are then me (based off the fact that most of their ratings must have been higher, as I was towards the bottom end). However, if they made their own teams, and are good enough at battling to get there, I believe they would overall represent quite well whether or not Skymin should be banned. The question should not be "do you hate it?" or "would you like to not have to see it again?", but "is Skymin really an uber, and 'to good' for OU?", in which case the answer would be a resounding "no".
We should really see the November usage statistics, and see how high it ranks. I'm willing to bet it isn't in the top three, let alone at the pinacle of brokeness, like Garchomp was. And it isn't at all comparable with the case of Doexys Speed either, which, while not being the highest up in terms of use, very clearly demonstrated overcentralization, something no one has jet really provided examples for when it comes to Skymin.
Really, is it that easy to just "ladder a bit" to get into the top and be eligible to vote?
I don't think it's as easy as it is made out to be; I consider myself at least moderately intelligent and objective, and I've done at least two battles a day for over a month yet I've never even entered the top 50.
The stats posted in the voting thread are:
"PARAMYLODON | 1,658.30 | 27.73"
It took me quite a span of time (as I said, at least a month) to reach this.
Although, the issue of copying someone else's team who is good, and just using that to ladder is a bad one. I-as I assume is also the case for most everyone else-actually made the team I used myself, as well as continuously modified and tweaked it myself when necessary.
Although I often asked some people if they see any potential things to change, simply for new ideas, I don't believe this would then brand someone as not knowing much.
If it matters, I never used Skymin myself, but have faced it regularly (of course). My vote would have been to "OU", as much as I'd like to not see it's face anymore, I simply don't think it is an uber.
I do agree that some of the people appear suspect within the top 50-not what I would have expected considering how much better they all are then me (based off the fact that most of their ratings must have been higher, as I was towards the bottom end). However, if they made their own teams, and are good enough at battling to get there, I believe they would overall represent quite well whether or not Skymin should be banned. The question should not be "do you hate it?" or "would you like to not have to see it again?", but "is Skymin really an uber, and 'to good' for OU?", in which case the answer would be a resounding "no".
We should really see the November usage statistics, and see how high it ranks. I'm willing to bet it isn't in the top three, let alone at the pinacle of brokeness, like Garchomp was. And it isn't at all comparable with the case of Doexys Speed either, which, while not being the highest up in terms of use, very clearly demonstrated overcentralization, something no one has jet really provided examples for when it comes to Skymin.
![Mia [old]](/forums/data/avatars/m/17/17136.jpg?1387813379){kind=avatar}
I think the staff should be given a bit more credit in that they were surely aware of the possibility of ill-founded votes. While the majority of the members here are not familiar with the intricacies of advanced Pokemon play, the site staff chose to give some means of expression to the masses that they didn't have to at all. It could have easily remained a discussion exclusive to the Policy Review. If the votes were ill founded and dismissed as a result, it is their right to do so, but would remain an insult to all those involved up to this point. It doesn't really come as a surprise that some of the voters have frustrating reasoning to others, but we should still honor them, if only to allow members a rare opportunity to formulate their community in a direction which we best see fit, something that those eligible to vote are expected to do as statistical representations of the rest of the players. We have to assume that these voters are aware of the implications that go along with changing the rules in question, something that was never mentioned for this particular vote. The vote would have been more apt to the voters had it said, "Should Shaymin-S be removed from competitive play?" rather than simply offering two tier choices. While both are fundamentally the same, the implied impact on the community as a whole is not stressed enough.
That said, I can see the finer points of choosing a Policy Review discussion over utilizing a vote. It seems apparent to me that Policy Review members are more likely to target the ideal goal behind the vote, as those members have shown themselves to be more familiar with competitive Pokemon play and the ideology that Smogon produces for its members to learn from. Assuming that the voters are responsible towards the community, despite their vote, we still have to determine which eligibility to speak bears more weight: there are screens to voting in terms of the ladder requirement proposed, and there are the less obvious screens needed for entry into the Policy Review forum. This ultimately comes down to choosing one over the other, and trying to find a conclusive argument. The problem is, we still don't have one.
It is unfortunate that this frustration is the cause for a potential undermining of the system chosen. I hope it doesn't turn into a huge waste of effort. The real tragedy here is that once the system was implemented, the votes that are so frustrating are in question for dismissal. Is this a method to revert to what should have been a Policy Review discussion in the first place? This is akin to dismissing the entire vote, if only to a lesser magnitude.
I know this is very long, I've been thinking about this over the past few days and I wanted to have a firm and conclusive stance when I posted in this thread that accumulates my ideas.
Ah, Smogon experiences the pains of democracy. Touching.
Really though, this is nice and all, but I'm curious as toward the real numbers and if they are significant enough to worry about.
How often can Skymin take out it's most realistic 'counters'? Assuming standard sets and EVs, of course. To me, it seems it's taking out things it 'shouldn't' be a decent percentage of the time. I mean, there are plenty of pokemon that can turn a crit on a sketchy counter into a kill, and we all understand that's a part of the game (though whether we enjoy it is another story). We also understand the % we're dealing with when that happens, though. If Skymin is dealing with Zapdos, Blissey, etc. at even 30% efficiency, that's a significant difference from the amount of 'hax taking out a relatively safe switchin' that we're used to.
Of course, the question then is: are we okay with that? Personally, I'm not a fan of any more unpredictability in a game which is already suspect competitively at times due to the many random effects out there. As much as I hate to go here, I draw a parallel to the king of modern competitive gaming - Starcraft. The numbers in Starcraft are static - there is no damage variation, there are no critical hits, and a miss chance is only brought in under distinct situations which provide a tactical advantage. That design mechanic likely came about to ease the balancing of the game at the time, which would explain why Blizzard (and other RTS designers) were blind toward how future RTS games they made would turn out when they added more variability to the equation. Sure, wide damage ranges, critical hits, miss rates and such are cool, but they actually hurt the competitive side of the game. While this is only but one of the reasons that Starcraft endures as the most balanced RTS ever made, it is nonetheless a significant one.
Keep in mind I'm not trying to say we need to get rid of variability in pokemon or anything. Some of it is even positive for the game - choosing to use Hydro Pump over Surf is a calculated risk on the part of the user. My point is merely that Skymin presents an element of 'luck' to the game that makes even Togekiss and Jirachi look tame. I think too much of the focus in this argument was about it's strengths and weaknesses, rather than how unpredictable it was (for both user and victim). Though obviously, we can all agree it's a strong pokemon, else the discussion would never have come up (hi dunsparce!).
Now, I know that many people out there have a different view on exactly where we should draw the line in between making pokemon more competitive and staying true to the nature of the game itself. The reason for my post was simply that I don't think I've seen this viewpoint adequately brought forth, and I think it merits consideration.
(Note: In case there's any confusion, I use the term 'unpredictable' in this post to say that there is a large variation in what the same pokemon will do in every single battle it's in, not that it has a wide movepool or can have so many sets as in: 'Salamence is unpredictable!')
Really though, this is nice and all, but I'm curious as toward the real numbers and if they are significant enough to worry about.
How often can Skymin take out it's most realistic 'counters'? Assuming standard sets and EVs, of course. To me, it seems it's taking out things it 'shouldn't' be a decent percentage of the time. I mean, there are plenty of pokemon that can turn a crit on a sketchy counter into a kill, and we all understand that's a part of the game (though whether we enjoy it is another story). We also understand the % we're dealing with when that happens, though. If Skymin is dealing with Zapdos, Blissey, etc. at even 30% efficiency, that's a significant difference from the amount of 'hax taking out a relatively safe switchin' that we're used to.
Of course, the question then is: are we okay with that? Personally, I'm not a fan of any more unpredictability in a game which is already suspect competitively at times due to the many random effects out there. As much as I hate to go here, I draw a parallel to the king of modern competitive gaming - Starcraft. The numbers in Starcraft are static - there is no damage variation, there are no critical hits, and a miss chance is only brought in under distinct situations which provide a tactical advantage. That design mechanic likely came about to ease the balancing of the game at the time, which would explain why Blizzard (and other RTS designers) were blind toward how future RTS games they made would turn out when they added more variability to the equation. Sure, wide damage ranges, critical hits, miss rates and such are cool, but they actually hurt the competitive side of the game. While this is only but one of the reasons that Starcraft endures as the most balanced RTS ever made, it is nonetheless a significant one.
Keep in mind I'm not trying to say we need to get rid of variability in pokemon or anything. Some of it is even positive for the game - choosing to use Hydro Pump over Surf is a calculated risk on the part of the user. My point is merely that Skymin presents an element of 'luck' to the game that makes even Togekiss and Jirachi look tame. I think too much of the focus in this argument was about it's strengths and weaknesses, rather than how unpredictable it was (for both user and victim). Though obviously, we can all agree it's a strong pokemon, else the discussion would never have come up (hi dunsparce!).
Now, I know that many people out there have a different view on exactly where we should draw the line in between making pokemon more competitive and staying true to the nature of the game itself. The reason for my post was simply that I don't think I've seen this viewpoint adequately brought forth, and I think it merits consideration.
(Note: In case there's any confusion, I use the term 'unpredictable' in this post to say that there is a large variation in what the same pokemon will do in every single battle it's in, not that it has a wide movepool or can have so many sets as in: 'Salamence is unpredictable!')
See, this is the big point I have an issue with. As I've said many times, Jirachi and Togekiss abuse luck much more than Skymin ever could. Both could paralyze to make up for a potential speed deficient, and with ParaFlinch odds of attacking are way less than with Skymin. Using Air Slash is often a calculated risk for Skymin, because with it's SR weak and fragility it's often in no shape to take hits, and without that flinch it's in a lot of trouble. Togekiss and Jirachi don't have to worry as much due to their bulk.
I'm getting a bit peeved at everyone looking at Skymin's speed and saying that Air Slash is the more threatening than the hax of Togekiss and Jirachi. It's simply not true. Statiscally, you will hit Skymin far more than Togekiss and Jirachi once they paralyze you. Not only that, Skymin's bonuses against it's targets are gone after they switch out. Paralysis, Burn, or whatever Skymin or Jirachi do to you stays with you the whole match. They have just as good a chance at paralyzing as Skymin does flinching, so if people want to ban Skymin for luck abuse, then turn a blind eye on the abuse by Togekiss and Jirachi, I question their judgment and ability to look past hype and actually view the situation as a whole.
Well, by no means do I consider Togekiss and Jirachi's luck shenanigans to be great for the game, though I do think Skymin presents problems those two do not. Togekiss can paralyze and Air Slash spam Zapdos or Blissey, but can it actually defeat them at anywhere near the rate Skymin can? I remember running SpDef Zapdos on my teams over a year ago, when I decided I was tired of getting beaten around by Yanmega and Togekiss and relying on Blissey to sit there and wall them. I don't ever remember having a problem with either of those pokemon again.
Jirachi has a new level of annoyance (Zen Headbutt + para was rarely that useful), but it suffers from the same problem Togekiss does, with an even more advanced case. 100 base attack isn't bad, but nor is it great, and steel isn't the best attacking type as we all know. What is it really going to kill? I'm much more afraid of Jirachi when it's wishing all battle long, or sub/CMing up.
Agreeing with Tleilax, that bolded reason is absolutely the most frustrating one I've seen. The idea that there is a very clear distinction between Skymin's "luck factor" and Jirachi/Togekiss' "luck factor" just seems insane to me. Why is this line so obvious to some people? What is it exactly? Togekiss/Jirachi can't thunderwave ground-types, while Skymin's stab hits them super-effective? Is that really it? Because aside from ground-types (which really only Jirachi has to fear thanks to EQ weak), what's the difference? Wish/Roost provide much more durability for repeated flinch-haxing, along with Jirachi's SR resistance. Skymin's seed flare can't possible be the issue, 2 turns of seed flare on a random pokemon from the metagame is significantly weaker than 2 turns of Heatran's fire blast, accounting for accuracy+sp def drop. Zapdos resisting it and having pressure and Dragonite/Salamence quad-resisting it, and Metagross resisting it and having clear body, etc. etc. should all make Seed Flare seem quite benign.
Do you really know the odds of Skymin beating Blissey? About 10%. Most Blissey I see pack Ice Beam. That means Skymin has a 90% chance of being KOed by Blissey. Legacy Raider posted the exact equation earlier in the thread if you wish to see it. Specially defensive Zapdos dominates Skymin as well. On paper Skymin seems invulnerable, but in reality it has many easy checks. How about Bronzong? Skymin can't touch it and gets destroyed by Gyro Ball. Dragonite can come in on anything but HP Ice and take it down. If Skymin is injured Scizor has a field day with Bullet Punch. ScarfTran comes in on anything but Earth Power with ease. Weaville and Mamoswine force it out. Metagross, Regice, and Registeel don't need to fear Seed Flare drops and also chase it out with super effective attacks. Can much counter it perfectly? NO. Can many things check it? YES. The metagame is no longer about simply playing counters. People need to shake that mentality off.
You want to talk about type coverage? Take a look at OU. Almost as many Pokemon are 4x resistant to Seed Flare as there are Pokemon weak to it, and that's not counting the 2x resists. Grass has awful coverage. Flying isn't good coverage either in a steel dominated metagame. Iron Head has bad coverage as well, but it has higher accuracy than Air Slash with the same flinch chance. It can Wish itself back to health, and support it's team with it as well. I also can't seem to understand how you are calling Zen Headbutt and Body Slam not useful, while saying how overpowering Skymin is when it tries to do the same thing.
Of course, Grass is awful. But, I'm pretty sure that every time X-Act provides some sort of type damage comparison, Flying is high on the list. For example, his October list has Flying as the 4th best type. Interestingly enough, three of the top four types(Ice, Rock and Flying) are weak to Steel.
You're completely missing the point, and going off on some 'Skymin is okay' tangent. I was discussing the unpredictability of Skymin's general use, and you chose to respond to that arguing that Togekiss and Jirachi add more randomness to the game than Skymin does. I noted that while they can run sets that are about as luck-based as Skymin, they simply don't have the power it carries as they literally have no conceivable chance of beating their 'counters'.
Now you're going off with this silliness. Nowhere did I claim Skymin is impossible to deal with, and invulnerable, and all that crazy stuff. Although, it's strength (I don't think anyone is arguing that Skymin is not an incredibly strong pokemon) is what separates it from the other pokemon who have Serene Grace.
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