Glitched Weather in English Platinum [Part 2, Clearer Video] (Update March 18, 2009)

[obi]

A default loose, similar to the default-loose caused by Self-KO clause, also doesn't have its basis in game mechanics and is straying from cartridge play. To be simulating the games, it has to be purely on the honor system.

Not true. For purposes of ladder rating and tournament play, we can say "You lose if X" and define X to be anything we want. That's not changing the game itself, just what we consider victory. You can disqualify people for whatever reason you want. Putting multiple Pokemon to sleep (if playing under Wi-Fi rules) is another kind of sleep clause that we can enforce just fine. Obviously this would be a poor rule for freeze clause.

Going at this another route, despite precedence for its existence, Sleep Clause itself, no matter how its implemented, is technically altering game-mechanics of the cartridge games, which Smogon seeks to simulate.

Yes, Sleep Clause is currently implemented improperly. That doesn't mean we continue to implement future things improperly. I would favor a Wi-Fi vs. PBR system of determining game mechanics (where our current Sleep Clause is only possible with PBR mechanics, and all things that come with that).

Surely you don't mean to say the acid rain has even the slightest possibility of being intentional? Beyond the fact that it is completely nonsensical, unprecedented and undocumented, the fact that the damage is done (in the case of the four-weather glitch) by the Pokémon's own abilities, rather than the weather itself, smacks of mussed code.

The point isn't that this is necessarily what the developers intended, but rather, you can't tell whether any given thing is intentional or a bug. Maybe they meant to give Heracross X-Scissor. Maybe Chatter should be Sketchable. Perhaps they meant for Brick Break to not break screens when it hits a Ghost. That is all irrelevant. It doesn't matter what they meant to do, could have done, or should have done. All that matters is what they did.

 

[Naxte]

Meh, well I suppose I'm beat then. I still don't like it, and feel that it will be terribly counter-productive in the end, but that's due to my difference in philosophy, which I can't think of anything else to support it with. And I suppose that if it does prove to be broken and Nintendo doesn't do anything with it, then I suppose we can then consider banning Pursuit or whatever is deemed most appropriate at dealing with the problem at that time. I still don't like it, and feel it will hinder the natural progression of the meta-game, but I don't really have anything left to say beyond that, which of course isn't enough, so if the majority decide to and manage to get it implemented, then I suppose that I'll just accept and deal with that then.

 

[alive]

okay, lets say everyone agrees that it is right to implement this. now, how do you go about doing it? how are you going to decipher when things happen and when they do not? if what syberia said was true and it doesn't happen every time then how do you determine a number to go with this glitch?

 

[Naxte]

okay, lets say everyone agrees that it is right to implement this. now, how do you go about doing it? how are you going to decipher when things happen and when they do not? if what syberia said was true and it doesn't happen every time then how do you determine a number to go with this glitch?

If possible, have someone go into the game's code and try to figure out what's going on with it. If not, or no real answer can be found in it, then we'd do what we do for anything else to determine such chances; test it a few hundred times or so in order to get a pretty good estimate (the best we're going to get) of the chance of it activating, and then go with that.

 

[RBG]

okay, lets say everyone agrees that it is right to implement this. now, how do you go about doing it? how are you going to decipher when things happen and when they do not? if what syberia said was true and it doesn't happen every time then how do you determine a number to go with this glitch?

You'd be surprised how much we can find out with testing. I'm sure if this glitch does exist in American Platinum, I will spend my time figuring out every detail about this badge to prove that I can still earn it.

 

[jamespicone]

I'm willing to bet it's a subtle memory corruption bug caused by a dangling pointer - in other words, it probably doesn't have a clear-cut chance. It probably depends on what was happening in the game before you use Pursuit. And I don't just mean "What move you used last round", I mean "How long the cartridge has been on, what the RNG's last seventeen values were, how many battles you've been in up until now, etc. etc.".

This bug will not be simple to reproduce in a simulator. I strongly suspect it will be impossible to reproduce accurately. What are we going to do then? Implement a 'fake' version of the glitch where we assign a probability based on testing? But then we're not playing pokemon. Do we leave the glitch out? Then we're not playing pokemon.

I'm somewhat curious, though, so I may have to see if I can get my hands on a copy of the game and dig through the code.

If someone finds a reproducible test case - i.e., an exact series of steps they can take to make this bug happen 100% of the time, you might want to mention it.

 

[Erazor]

Ok , quick question: does Nintendo/GameFreak know abou this glitch yet?

If possible, have someone go into the game's code and try to figure out what's going on with it. If not, or no real answer can be found in it, then we'd do what we do for anything else to determine such chances; test it a few hundred times or so in order to get a pretty good estimate (the best we're going to get) of the chance of it activating, and then go with that.

Even after testing, we're probably not going to completely figure it out.
This could lead to an instance when the glitch activates on shoddy, but according to it's in-game "mechanics", it wouldn't have occured. This is just theory, but if we have to simulate link play, then we should at least completely figure it out before implementing it.

There's a line between simulation, and common sense.

Exactly. It shouldn't matter whether this glitch is in the game or not, we shouldn't implement it, because it's ridiculous. Scizor suffered recoil from Technician? Come on!!

 

[alive]

Ok , quick question: does Nintendo/GameFreak know abou this glitch yet?

I'm pretty sure there have been hundreds of angry japanese letters and phone calls to nintendo about the subject.

 

[Caelum]

We are getting a bit ahead of ourselves when talking about implementation on Shoddy. We don't even understand the glitch fully yet! However, I do agree with the principle that our goal is to replicate game mechanics and that we must adhere to it (we can ban ANYTHING as long as we don't modify the actual coding of the game - let's remember that people) otherwise we aren't even playing Pokemon. That said, since this obviously "unintended" and has a lot of, what I believe at least, negative ramifications that before we make any decisions about implementation we should wait until the North American release to see if this glitch is fixed. In principle, I would be in favor of immediate implementation (under the assumption we fully understood the mechanics behind the glitch); but in practice, I honestly wouldn't want to bother having to deal with this and have someone go to the trouble of implementing it (most likely Doug) if it turned out that the mechanics changed in the NA release to change it. That's why I believe we should wait till the NA version is released before considering implementation. If it's unchanged in the NA version and we are reasonably able to implement its effects (i.e. understanding the game mechanics & it's not nearly impossible to shoddy code), it should be. It doesn't matter if it were intended or not by the game creators.

 

[twash]

Ok , quick question: does Nintendo/GameFreak know abou this glitch yet?

Whether they do or not, it shouldn't affect our decision on whether to implicate this on Shoddy. What should affect our decision is whether or not it is implemented in the game, which in this case, it is.

Even after testing, we're probably not going to completely figure it out.
This could lead to an instance when the glitch activates on shoddy, but according to it's in-game "mechanics", it wouldn't have occured. This is just theory, but if we have to simulate link play, then we should at least completely figure it out before implementing it.

I wouldn't say we can't figure it out. Seeing as we haven't really gone to test it yet, we cannot pass judgement on whether we can figure it out or not. There may well be a way of working it out, but obviously it will need testing first. Of course it would be tested before being added to Shoddy, otherwise there isn't a real point in adding it, as if we add it beforehand, it may not be simulating the game.

Exactly. It shouldn't matter whether this glitch is in the game or not, we shouldn't implement it, because it's ridiculous. Scizor suffered recoil from Technician? Come on!!

Ridiculous or not, you yourself know that it is in the game. "Scizor suffered recoil from Technician", and? Oh no, Life Orb gives recoil damage, therefore it must be ridiculous, and shouldn't be implemented into Shoddy!

 

[Griffin]

"Scizor suffered recoil from Technician", and? Oh no, Life Orb gives recoil damage, therefore it must be ridiculous, and shouldn't be implemented!

Completely different, and you know that.

 

[twash]

Completely different, and you know that.

I disagree. I have a feeling the only reason that Scizor receiving recoil from Technician was called "ridiculous" is because it didn't happen in Diamond or Pearl. If we always knew Technician as "If a move has 60 base power or less, damage is increased by 50% at the cost of 10% health per turn.", I bet it wouldn't be called ridiculous. Why? Because that's how it would have been made, and people wouldn't say "we must change it so the user does not receive the recoil".

 

[Griffin]

I disagree. I have a feeling the only reason that Scizor receiving recoil from Technician was called "ridiculous" is because it didn't happen in Diamond or Pearl. If we always knew Technician as "If a move has 60 base power or less, damage is increased by 50% at the cost of 10% health per turn.", I bet it wouldn't be called ridiculous. Why? Because that's how it would have been made, and people wouldn't say "we must change it so the user does not receive the recoil".

Still a large difference. When you pursuit while there is hail, there are suddenly 4 weather effects at the same time, which hurt everything apart from ice types, but it's not actually the weather hurting those Pokémon, it's their own ability.

Technician having recoil isn't ridiculous, but this phenomenon is.

 

[133tSneasel]

In this video there is a Slowbro with the Nap Timezzzz (The Z's are in the square formation) Is that name even legit to have or is that a hack?)

Back in September I made a thread documenting a strange occurrence of random rain in a WiFi battle on Pokemon Platinum. I had no idea what set it off, and I could only manage to take a very fuzzy video of the occurrence. Here is a link to that thread.

Recently, It happened again and I was able to take a clearer video of it. I believe it has something to do with Pursuit screwing up weather effects, as clearly the game thinks that it is both raining and sandstorming, though for some reason the rain hurts you like sandstorm (1/16). More testing should be done on this, it appears to be a simple glitch.

Here is a link to the new clearer video (apologies to all for keeping animations and music on in the video, I know Smogon doesn't exactly care for such frivolities): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pH0ohPZJiM

For reference, here is the link to the older, fuzzy video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCosjwPE-qM

 

[Naxte]

I disagree. I have a feeling the only reason that Scizor receiving recoil from Technician was called "ridiculous" is because it didn't happen in Diamond or Pearl. If we always knew Technician as "If a move has 60 base power or less, damage is increased by 50% at the cost of 10% health per turn.", I bet it wouldn't be called ridiculous. Why? Because that's how it would have been made, and people wouldn't say "we must change it so the user does not receive the recoil".

...Or in FR/LG. Or in R/S. Or in Emerald. And also how Nitendo has never changed the actual game mechanics in the middle of a generation, in the third installment of the game; between generations, but not within the same one. And even in Platinum, there are no tutorials or anything saying "abilties, even those like Natural Cure, can now hurt you due to Pursuit and Hail, which also trigger Sun, Rain, and Sandstorm, but instead of being hurt by Sandstorm or Hail, we'll now it saying that the damage is being done by your ability, even though it's really the weather".......

Wanting Smogon to implement something because it's in the game and Smogon strives to be true to the game is a very valid position. But please, it is obviously a glitch that is causing this; that, at least, should be something that we can all agree on. It's fine if you don't think it should matter if something is a glitch or not, and it should still be implemented in the game regardless of things like that or intent, but at least acknowledge this for what this is: a glitch. People are already annoyed enough that that something like this might be implemented; trying to convince them that something like this wasn't a gltich, but was actually intentional on top of that only makes your position that much tougher.

Again, if you think that whether or not it's a gltich, or what Game Freak's intentions were don't matter, then that's fine, but please just say that instead of actulaly trying to argue that this isn't a glitch.

 

[RBG]

...Or in FR/LG. Or in R/S. Or in Emerald. And also how Nitendo has never changed the actual game mechanics in the middle of a generation, in the third installment of the game; between generations, but not within the same one. And even in Platinum, there are no tutorials or anything saying "abilties, even those like Natural Cure, can now hurt you due to Pursuit and Hail, which also trigger Sun, Rain, and Sandstorm, but instead of being hurt by Sandstorm or Hail, we'll now it saying that the damage is being done by your ability, even though it's really the weather".......

Wanting Smogon to implement something because it's in the game and Smogon strives to be true to the game is a very valid position. But please, it is obviously a glitch that is causing this; that, at least, should be something that we can all agree on. It's fine if you don't think it should matter if something is a glitch or not, and it should still be implemented in the game regardless of things like that or intent, but at least acknowledge this for what this is: a glitch. People are already annoyed enough that that something like this might be implemented; trying to convince them that something like this wasn't a gltich, but was actually intentional on top of that only makes your position that much tougher.

Again, if you think that whether or not it's a gltich, or what Game Freak's intentions were don't matter, then that's fine, but please just say that instead of actulaly trying to argue that this isn't a glitch.

I understand that it is a glitch. But that is besides the point. The point is we are simulating link battles, and this happens in link battles.

 

[Naxte]

Exactly; that's a good reason for implementing it, as I admitted to earlier when I conceded. I was pretty much just saying the exact same you just did, only applying it to the other side, since Twash brought it up as part of an analogy to support it. Like you said, I was just saying that either way, whether it's a glitch or not, is completely irrelevant and should be dropped.

Back-tracking the conversation that lead to that comment though, it seems that it seems I misinterpreted a bit, since Twash also admitted that it being in the game was enough and wasn't denying what it was, so sorry about that. Correcting that and replying to what was actually meant, it being such a completely nonsensical glitch, based on what I said earlier, is what causes it to be taken as ridiculous. The logic of it is completely nonsensical, doesn't follow precedent and there's no given reason for the change or that it should even be there, which is why it's seen as ridiculous. If certain things were different, then it wouldn't be ridiculous, but they aren't different, so it is. As said, it's irrelevant though, so I don't get the need to continue going down this road.

 

[Syberia]

I would love for someone to test Ice Body Walrein in combination with the Hail version of this glitch (I will do it later, if I can replicate it), as restoring 12% HP for each weather condition (50% per turn) might just be grounds for it to be banned if this glitch were to be implemented. Though I wonder, in such a case, would we ban the ability Ice Body (really, who uses Glalie?) or the pokemon Walrein?

Pursuit might also become a totally useless move, as no one in their right mind would switch away from it for fear of activating the glitch. Especially the Hail version.

 

[lati0s]

If we can ban anything we want but can't change the game mechanics why don't we ban the glitch

we could implement a "glitch clause" that states that if the glitch activates the game is void,

playing with this clause would essentially be the same as playing on an emulator that doesn't have the glitch.

 

[RBG]

A list of things that (I think, off the top of my head) would need to be tested, if it exists in American Platinum

1. Does it always activate in any weather with Pursuit KOing a fleeing foe?
2. Does this happen in all weathers, or, like i Hypothesis, in all of them except rain?
3. Does it have to be perma weather to activate the glitch? If no, does it then become permanent weather?
4. Does it increase healing from Ice Body/Rain Dish?
5. Does it raise speed for Swift Swim/Chlorphyll Pokemon?
6. Do you get the Sp.Def Boost from sandstorm?
7. What does this do to Fire/Water Type moves/Solarbeam?
8. How much do Moonlight, Synthesis, and Morning Sun heal when there is Sun and Rain?
9. Other Abilites: Leaf Guard, Hydration, Dry Skin, Flower Gift, Sand Cloak, Snow Veil, Solar Power
10. Accuracy of Thunder, Blizzard.
11. How does it interact with Cloud Nine/Air Lock? What if you KO a poke with one of those abilities with pursuit? Will that start the weather?
12. Most importantly, what happens to Castform and Weather Ball???

 

[Griffin]

I would love for someone to test Ice Body Walrein in combination with the Hail version of this glitch (I will do it later, if I can replicate it), as restoring 12% HP for each weather condition (50% per turn) might just be grounds for it to be banned if this glitch were to be implemented. Though I wonder, in such a case, would we ban the ability Ice Body (really, who uses Glalie?) or the pokemon Walrein?

Pursuit might also become a totally useless move, as no one in their right mind would switch away from it for fear of activating the glitch. Especially the Hail version.

I doubt whether Pursuit would be useless, quite the opposite. Right now it threatens to deal double damage, but if we implement the glitch it threatens to deal horrible damage PLUS quadrupling the weather. Just the threat will keep Pokémon in. A voluntary Shadow Tag, if you will.

Also, I don't know if Ice Body would be very broken. If you could get the quadruple weather then yes, probably. However, it requires Abomasnow and a pursuiter, which your opponent has to switch out of when it uses pursuit and even then it won't always activate.

Point being that IF it happens it's broken, but that's like saying if you pass Lucario +6 in all stats he is broken. It's true, but it takes several turns and several Pokémon to get these boosts passed. Just like it'll take Abomasnow and a successful pursuiter to set up the quadruple weather.

It could be broken, but I don't think you can tell by just theorymon here.

 

[Syberia]

I doubt whether Pursuit would be useless, quite the opposite. Right now it threatens to deal double damage, but if we implement the glitch it threatens to deal horrible damage PLUS quadrupling the weather. Just the threat will keep Pokémon in. A voluntary Shadow Tag, if you will.

My point exactly. No one will switch, so it's "useless."

 

[twash]

I don't think we can pass judgement on whether anything is "broken" or not, at least until we have tested it properly.

RB, we forgot one - does the Rain / Sun become permanent? This is pretty vital considering there is currently no way for permanent Rain / Sun in OU, or even UU.

 

[Griffin]

My point exactly. No one will switch, so it's "useless."

Up to the point where people stop carrying it, because nobody switches.

Up to the point where people start switching again, because nobody carries it.

Up to the point where people start using pursuit again, because people switch again.


It'll keep itself balanced. That's the nice thing about Pokémon. A Pokémon/move becomes overabused, its best counter will be overabused next.

 

[nyczxjay]

I fail to see how this glitch would even be successfully implemented to "test" on Shoddy, considering how I can say with 100% certainty, that it doesn't happen every single time Pursuit KO's a fleeing foe since I've done it a good number of times without it happening.