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np: UU - A New Beginning
- Thread starter RBG
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Oh T__T that's terrible. I was always under the impression that it had 85% accuracy like Hydro Pump and Fire Blast. That's what I get for not using it since RBY.
Edit: Although my point stands, there is nothing new about 120 base power moves.
Dang, Scarfphlosion is quite good. I love him. But I doubt he is bannable, as he is stopped cold by bulky waters.
Only a Million games+, why would we need to ban something?
I hope that wasnt a serious comment.
The test isnt much longer, people already Realize what is too strong, in their opinions of course. My fear with this Voting thing, is i dont know if people are mature enough to vote the correct pokemon out. There are people with extremely high rating, using broken teams, such as Hail teams, who would rather not ban the team they have been easily winning with. Or they may not realize its broken, and credit themselves with the rating, or even they may have never tried to use a regular team versus a hail team.
I know some very ignorant people in the top 20. I wish i didnt DC or get haxed from 1615 to 1570s....:(. Im seriously going to start a threat about Shoddys RNG.
I hope that wasnt a serious comment.
The test isnt much longer, people already Realize what is too strong, in their opinions of course. My fear with this Voting thing, is i dont know if people are mature enough to vote the correct pokemon out. There are people with extremely high rating, using broken teams, such as Hail teams, who would rather not ban the team they have been easily winning with. Or they may not realize its broken, and credit themselves with the rating, or even they may have never tried to use a regular team versus a hail team.
I know some very ignorant people in the top 20. I wish i didnt DC or get haxed from 1615 to 1570s....:(. Im seriously going to start a threat about Shoddys RNG.
Well, Slowbro is 2HKOd by a full powered Eruption,I think. I'm not sure.
slowbro is a physical tank and does not have the best special defense, so that is a poor argument. the fact that some milotic can be 2HKOd by specs eruption is a much scarier
point taken, sorry.
The difference is that someone competitively interested in winning is not likely to use blizzard, since it WILL be missing more than most are comfortable are with, and with only 8 pp.
I'm talking about other 120 base power moves with higher accuracy. We've always had to deal with moves along the lines of Fire Blast, Flare Blitz, and Close Combat. How the addition of another 120 base power move would be unbalancing is beyond me. Edit: This, of course, pertains to the discussion about Abomasnow and Hail teams
There are these things called "flash fire" and "ghost type," and they kind of make a difference.
Not to mention Ice is arguably the best attacking type in the game.
Also, Fire Blast, Flare Blitz and Close Combat have calculated risks built into them (and in the case of Flare Blitz and CC are limited to a very relatively pool of pokemon). Once Abamasnow's in, unless your team is packing some type of weather user and you waste a turn to use it, you are facing basically risk-free blizzards the rest of the game.
Oh wait, nix that. There is a risk. There is a very real risk that getting hit by all those blizzards, your pokes will get frozen over at one point or another-- and seeing how there's no ice immunity, it's likely to happen sooner rather than later.
Not to mention Ice is arguably the best attacking type in the game.
Also, Fire Blast, Flare Blitz and Close Combat have calculated risks built into them (and in the case of Flare Blitz and CC are limited to a very relatively pool of pokemon). Once Abamasnow's in, unless your team is packing some type of weather user and you waste a turn to use it, you are facing basically risk-free blizzards the rest of the game.
Oh wait, nix that. There is a risk. There is a very real risk that getting hit by all those blizzards, your pokes will get frozen over at one point or another-- and seeing how there's no ice immunity, it's likely to happen sooner rather than later.
Yeah, but those Ice types do have to worry about SR and have to switch when a wall pops in.
Besides not too many Ice types have that great of SAtk, durability, and the speed to consistently pull it off.
Glaceon (130) and Jynx (110) are the only two Ice types with SAtk over 100 in UU and are fairly easily walled (Chansey, Registeel, etc.), not to mention Jynx won't be surviving long with a base 35 Def (I haven't even seen a Jynx yet in any of my UU ladder battles).
Froslass is the only Ice type to have Speed over 100, hell only 3 pokes have Speed over 80. With so many weaknesses and so many pokémon who can easily exploit them... I haven't seen too many Hail teams accomplish too much.
Besides not too many Ice types have that great of SAtk, durability, and the speed to consistently pull it off.
Glaceon (130) and Jynx (110) are the only two Ice types with SAtk over 100 in UU and are fairly easily walled (Chansey, Registeel, etc.), not to mention Jynx won't be surviving long with a base 35 Def (I haven't even seen a Jynx yet in any of my UU ladder battles).
Froslass is the only Ice type to have Speed over 100, hell only 3 pokes have Speed over 80. With so many weaknesses and so many pokémon who can easily exploit them... I haven't seen too many Hail teams accomplish too much.
Have you even considered the possibility that new UU is, so far, the most balanced and diverse metagame since...ever, and that nothing needs to be banned?
Why can't people handle the concept of a metagame where nothing needs banning? There's a general mindset of "we need to ban something" here. But nothing is broken. Don't fix it.
Something may be broken later, and we can ban it then. Remember how long it took to ban something from OU? Because the magic combo of Garchomp + Yache took a long time to be discovered. Nothing even remotely close to being that overcentralizing has reared its head yet.
The only calls for bans in this topic have been complaints of being unable to beat certain things. That clearly means the complainer is not doing enough to prepare for and handle the threat, not that the threat is broken.
I don't think it "clearly" mean anything. All it says is that they find it difficult to counter whereas you do not. I hate in these topics when we get into the stupid insinuation that the person complaining somehow is incompetent and doesn't know how to counter a certain threat. Maybe your team is just prepared for it? Have you considered that possibility? For example, I have OU teams in my box that could easily counter Rayquaza - does that make him not uber because a few of my teams happen to be able to deal with him? Of course not.
If some people find a threat difficult to prepare for, that is not a reason to ban it. I did not mean to imply a lack of skill on the compaliner's part, but rather a lack of effort to incorporate a defense against the threat. For such a person the easiest way for him to "handle" it would be to lobby for its banishment.
In regards to your Rayquaza-countering teams: No, it doesn't make him not uber; however, the fact that many people couldn't counter him with their current OU teams is not what makes him uber. His uber status was deigned independantly of his ability to be countered (or avoid being countered) by existing OU teams. (Or so I assume, as he was never tested to my knowledge)
As for the point of my post: I am hoping that, before calling for a ban, more people will
a) Use the threat themselves. If they find it easy to win with it but hard to win without it, then maybe it is broken.
b) Focus more on preparing for the threat than they currently are. If the amount of preparation required becomes disproportional (so much so that the team is at a disadvantage when not facing the threat, for example), then maybe the threat is broken.
That, and I still get the impression that people want to ban something for the sake of banning something.
In regards to your Rayquaza-countering teams: No, it doesn't make him not uber; however, the fact that many people couldn't counter him with their current OU teams is not what makes him uber. His uber status was deigned independantly of his ability to be countered (or avoid being countered) by existing OU teams. (Or so I assume, as he was never tested to my knowledge)
As for the point of my post: I am hoping that, before calling for a ban, more people will
a) Use the threat themselves. If they find it easy to win with it but hard to win without it, then maybe it is broken.
b) Focus more on preparing for the threat than they currently are. If the amount of preparation required becomes disproportional (so much so that the team is at a disadvantage when not facing the threat, for example), then maybe the threat is broken.
That, and I still get the impression that people want to ban something for the sake of banning something.
IMO the tier is currently on a delicate balance. It is very diverse and I've seen many different teams using different strategies. Hail stall teams while annoying and probably one of the best strategies for a stall team doesn't seem to cause the game to be overcentralizing. Not everybody is using a hail stall team and really once they start losing their key players the match becomes easier, though the same can be said about the team that's battling the hail stall team. It comes down to who can outsmart the other battler.
This is why im concerned about the public vote. People like this who either a) Dont play enough, or b) dont know enough, even c) Not using their good judgement, to realize that these teams are infact over centralizing.
There is no such thing as a "best" strategy, but there is definately such a thing as a "broken" one. You are saying the best way to beat a hail team, is to get rid of their key pokemon, but the point of hail teams, is that you either cant hit the pokemon, or you get outstalled by a pokemon who is nearly unkillable.
This is even more worrysome. I dont understand how people can even argue this. I think Caelum did a great job of explaining this, but ill try to add, as I guess its clearly needed. A pokemon such as well, lets say Groudon or Kyogre would be allowed in the OU according to your logic. These pokemon have very functioning counters in OU, and could possibly be handled. But, they are just TOO strong for the metagame to handle. Groudon and Kyogre are way to strong, regardless of the fact that they CAN be countered, nothing else even compares to their strength in this metagame, and it would cause overcentralizing. People could run permanent Rain Dance teams for pokemon like Kingdra, they would be nearly unstoppable. Abomasnow is the same way, just too strong for the metagame. It's Unique Typing, and Unparalelled support, while sporting a Stab Priority move, its too much for the metagame to handle. Much like Kyogre, Abomasnow makes other normal-ish pokemon such as Froslass and Walrein, just plain broken. Overall, a team that is COUNTERABLE can still be banned, if its just too strong(I hope this is what you meant Caelum, otherwise i appologize).
You realize, a VERY significant number of teams being used right now are hail teams? I see a hail team every other battle. Well, this is at least true in the top 20. People need to realize when they see the statistics, and not deny that something is too much for the metagame to handle.
Its even more rediculous that you claim this metagame is the most Balanced one yet, thats just a slap in the face to smogon, who worked painstakingly hard to balance the Standard Tier and Uber Tier. And it cant even compare to the balance and Diversity Level of Adv Tiers either.
Thank you for your time. :D.
Edit: @ Umbarsc. That is a result of the options a), b) and c). I can say someone is "stupid"(which i have never said), or rather misinformed, illogical or just not experienced enough to know what the difference is between Broken, and powerful/effective. E.G. Blaziken is strong, and 2HKOs everything in the metagame, but you dont need a SPECIFIC counter for it, or gimp your team to include this weakness. For hail, you need so many different things to properly counter, it effects your team and makes the metagame in a very boring state, full of the same teams everwhere, and these teams ALL win.
Steinhauser said:
This is a much better explanation than the one you gave previously and one that I largely agree with. Although, A. is a bit sketchy since it could be the player just uses a particular Pokemon quite well.
charmander6000 said:
Most "new" tiers will often be just filled with random experimentation like we're seeing in UU now. This is to be expected because people are still trying to figure out what works and what doesn't. Metagames tend to centralize over time so it's not surprising that a metagame in its infancy is quite sporadic and almost random.
HeYsUp said:
Don't bring statistics into this until we actually know them. Otherwise, I could say, 92% of all teams use Swords Dance Gallade and you would have no way of refuting it. Stay away from statistical arguments until we actually have them available.
Point Taken, but i do know which people in the top 10 use hail teams, and at least 4(i can list them) of them do, but ill edit that out because 72.35% of all statistics are made up anyway :/.
I think this will always be a problem no matter how much effort we make to try and eradicate it, which is why I think it is important that we put people's reasoning for banishment under heavy scrutiny.
I'm open to the possibility that infinite Hail support, and therefore Abomasnow (possibly Snover too), is broken. However, it doesn't help in the slightest when we get arguments like this:
So we're stupid if we don't (yet?) agree with you? I'm sorry but that's not the way to argue your case. You're claiming your opinion is absolute fact, which is the same thing you did before when you said something along the lines of 'A well-played Hail team should never lose'. Now I know from personal experience that this statement is blatantly untrue, as like I said before I've managed to beat many Hail teams comfortably with several different teams.
Notice I am not saying that Hail teams aren't broken, I am simply saying that your reasoning is false, and therefore insufficient. The way I see it, Hail teams are certainly not unbeatable by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm prepared to look into different avenues that may reveal them to be unhealthy for the metagame overall. For instance, I wouldn't consider personal playing experience (mine or anyone else's) as enough to make a call on this particular issue. It may be that drawing on your own experiences would lead to severe bias if say, for example, you have a certain affinity for particular strategies or Pokemon that happen to be very effective at combating Hail, yet in the grand scheme of things these particular elements form a small minority?
What I think we need therefore is some way in which we can all look at the big picture so that we can get a clear idea of what the overall situation really is. The best way I can currently think of doing this, at least for starters, would be for as many of us as possible to gather a large sample of battle logs that demonstrate 'good' Hail teams performing against a wide variety of well-built and well-played teams. Now don't get me wrong, I know that battle logs never suffice as 'proof' of anything, but what they hopefully will do is allow all of us to see just how effective Hail teams can be in a more objective light, and will give us more in the way of objective evidence to back up our arguments one way or the other.
That is only one possible way. If you have any others I'd like to hear them.
Maybe then it is true that Hail gets you high on the list, because I have faced a grand total of one Hail team, and one team that had an Abomasnow on it but didn't really seem like a Hail team, only a Glaceon really benefited from it (no Froslass/Walrein or anything). If the the stronger players (the ones I wouldn't encounter with my rating) are indeed often using Hail teams, that may be an indicator that those teams are in fact overpowered.
Or that better players use Hail Teams. But I'd draw the same conclusion then.
Or that better players use Hail Teams. But I'd draw the same conclusion then.
Firstly, please use some reading comprehension. A pokemon being "overcentralized" isnt really opinion. And stop putting words in my mouth, i never once used the word "Stupid". I was pointing out, that if people were actively playing with a standard team, are comfortable with the general aspect of tiers, and have good judgement would realize, these teams are quite dominant if not broken, or at least a suspect based on usage. Overcentralizing, i thought, meant that an aspect of the metagame was getting used so much, and was so strong that you need to effectively change your team to stop this overly used aspect of the metagame.
I think you also missed alot of my post. Hail teams ARE beatable. I have beaten alot of hail teams, especially the ones who dont spam protect. Otherwise i couldnt have gotten to 6th on the Leaderboard. The point is, they are getting used to much, while fitting the definition of a bannable aspect of a metagame as is shown in the Uber thread. They unbalance the metagame, its really not just me who thinks it.
Also, a well played Hail team SHOULDNT lose, but they do because people can either gimp their team to carry a counter(if there are any surfire ones) or the other player just plays better, while having a balanced team, they can STILL lose. My point is, the average hail team should usually beat the average standard team, assuming equal skill levels.
An example of over centralizing, is that people would use X pokemon, just because it counters Y overcentralized pokemon, no other reason, but it may lead to pokemon A-W severely harming the team.
I think you also missed alot of my post. Hail teams ARE beatable. I have beaten alot of hail teams, especially the ones who dont spam protect. Otherwise i couldnt have gotten to 6th on the Leaderboard. The point is, they are getting used to much, while fitting the definition of a bannable aspect of a metagame as is shown in the Uber thread. They unbalance the metagame, its really not just me who thinks it.
Also, a well played Hail team SHOULDNT lose, but they do because people can either gimp their team to carry a counter(if there are any surfire ones) or the other player just plays better, while having a balanced team, they can STILL lose. My point is, the average hail team should usually beat the average standard team, assuming equal skill levels.
An example of over centralizing, is that people would use X pokemon, just because it counters Y overcentralized pokemon, no other reason, but it may lead to pokemon A-W severely harming the team.
Saying that you are right and that everyone else who agrees with you is wrong is hardly a good way to argue. Read what others have posted on things they suspect, and emulate them, rather than simply throwing around your opinion like that. It destroys your argument when you voice it so badly, whether it be good or bad.
wow this is gettting to be an angry thread aint it?
Anyway, made a new team, i think i may need a Steelix at some point (Raikou likes ot hurt me) but other than that ill post more stuff later :)
Anyway, made a new team, i think i may need a Steelix at some point (Raikou likes ot hurt me) but other than that ill post more stuff later :)
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