God I hate the term late-game sweeper, Ninjask would be likely to prove BL in UU, though this is jsut Theorymon UU BP would run rampant, I don't really see who using it; 2 very easy and common ways to stop it Stealth Rock, Priority leads face immunity to the former but once switched out there easy targets for both Stealth Rock and Prority not to mention it cant switch into anything barring a Close Combat or Earthquake.
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OU's Overrated mons
- Thread starter TAY
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God I hate the term late-game sweeper, Ninjask would be likely to prove BL in UU, though this is jsut Theorymon UU BP would run rampant, I don't really see who using it; 2 very easy and common ways to stop it Stealth Rock, Priority leads face immunity to the former but once switched out there easy targets for both Stealth Rock and Prority not to mention it cant switch into anything barring a Close Combat or Earthquake.
Encore is really frickin good for the Dual Screen lead though. It is a really excellant mov for those suicide leads. And that extra speed, and beastly special attack make him quite good. 2hkoes Aero with Psychic and no SpA EVs.
Alright, I'll buy that. Except that Tyranitar, one of the most common leads, kind of steps on it. :/
Precisely, not to mention that both gets taunt, which shits over encore with the DS strategy anyways.
Besides, the fact that we're only looking at zam vs azelf as a lead (or at least this is where we got to) should shed some light on just how useful both are in general.
If we're talking about leads, azelf has stealth rock, u-turn and explosion. Alakazam has none of them. Advantage azelf.
If we're talking about the sweeper set, azelf has that sweet ground immunity and nasty plot, which obvious beats the slight sp.atk raise zam has. Advantage azelf.
I think it's really pretty clear here.
Erm... wouldn't T-Tar be crushing Azelf. Azelf doesn't have Focus Blast. So if I had a T-Tar, I'm pretty sure I would not stay in on Alakazam.
Alakazam does survive CB T-Tar's Pursuit after a Reflect is up, and can proceed to get his Light Screen up as he dies, and then he switches in something that can set up against Tyranitar. Not too shabby.
Obviously Azelf is the better suicide SR leader, considering its something that Alakazam can't do.
But there is one thing that Alakazam does better and that is the Dual Screen lead:
For one thing, Alakazam is faster. Therefore, he can always Taunt other Azelf leads.
Another is Inner Focus. Not getting flinched is excellant against the fake out leads, and it turns Infernape leads into a total joke. Inner Focus is totally great.
Also, Dual Screen Azelf can't take advantage of his otherwise spectacular support move pool, since he has three spots, R/LS/taunt already used up, and can only choose one more. Get fucked over by Aerodactyl Taunt with Explosion or SR? Not beating Aero leads or nape leads by choosing U Turn? Or being outclassed by Alakazam by choosing Psychic?
Also, with his slightly higher SpD, Alakazam with 40 SpD Evs has a 69% chance to survive a non boosted Gengar Shadow ball. And he can put 40 SpD EVs there because he only needs 216 to outspeed base 115s.
And of course, there is Encore. Encore is fucking awesome. Screw over set uppers, substituters (like Ninjask), force switches, and do some all around awesome stuff with it. Encore is just a bit of a special thing that allows him to do some things actually better than deoxys-e dual screen lead, like completely screwing over Substitute users, instead of still allowing them to attack.
Dual Screen Alakazam is the superior Dual Screener by far, if you are looking for one.
I wouldnt call many of the pokemon listed here overrated - Alakazam, Dusknoir, Dragonite and Donphan, because they aren't used that often, and most of them just manage to be OU. They're rarely used. I rather call them bad than overrated.
Pokemon that are used enough to be called overrated - Electivire, Porygon-Z, Gliscor and Ninjask.
Here's my opinion on these:
Alakazam - bad. Scarf Azelf already outspeeds Scarf Gengar, he has horrible defence for a Dual Screen user, and Signal Beam is only a slight improvement over Shadow Ball, whilst he lacks Azelf's incredible movepool.
Dusknoir - bad. Despite 100 base Attack, his best physical STAB has 60 base power - Earthquake does more damage. He struggles to deal damage. Rotom outclasses him as an anti-spinner.
Donphan - bad. Forretress and Tentracruel do a better job, for they can set up an entry hazard other than the ever so common SR, and not be hurt by Toxic Spikes. Starmie has Recover. For a bulky ground and one with high Attack, Hippowdon, Swampert and even Rhyperior are better. For a Ice Shard user, he lacks STAB, and has pitiful results. Scizor's Bullet Punch does more damage than a x2 super effective Ice Shard and does >50% to Salamance.
Porygon-Z - bad. Lacks speed and is walled by Blissey.
Dragonite - bad. He has a hard time separating himself from Salamance, especially when his most common set is one that Salamance is completely better at utilising - Dragonite's other sets usually aren't worth the team slot.
Electivire - Not overrated. Does get walled by Cresselia, but she at least lacks a reliable recovery move, so damage done to her brings her closer to her death, unlike Blissey. As well, Electivire has fantastic type coverage and resists Bullet Punch. He always gets a speed boost thanks to Thunderwave and TBolt being so common and the element of surprise. Bulky grounds only wall him if he is sufficiently healthy. However, I admit that his Dusknoir, Cresselia and Swampert weaknesses are very disturbing. I feel that Dusknoir isn't common, and Swampert is a beast to take down, but I understand why he is believed to be overrated.
Ninjask - To call a pokemon with Speed Boost, 160 Base Speed and Baton Pass overrated is insane. Substitute protects you from priority attacks, the most common Taunt lead (Azelf) hates X-Scissor and Roar/WW isn't as common as it once was - many Swampert forgo Roar for SR, and Hippowdon's usage is dropping. Skarmory is mauled by Magnezone.
Gliscor - As a physical wall - overrated. He has to overspecialise in speed to beat Lucario, taking away much of his walling potential. If I want a Ground Wall with a recovery move, I'll use Hippowdon. As a Baton Passer, he isn't overrated thanks to Taunt.
Pokemon that are used enough to be called overrated - Electivire, Porygon-Z, Gliscor and Ninjask.
Here's my opinion on these:
Alakazam - bad. Scarf Azelf already outspeeds Scarf Gengar, he has horrible defence for a Dual Screen user, and Signal Beam is only a slight improvement over Shadow Ball, whilst he lacks Azelf's incredible movepool.
Dusknoir - bad. Despite 100 base Attack, his best physical STAB has 60 base power - Earthquake does more damage. He struggles to deal damage. Rotom outclasses him as an anti-spinner.
Donphan - bad. Forretress and Tentracruel do a better job, for they can set up an entry hazard other than the ever so common SR, and not be hurt by Toxic Spikes. Starmie has Recover. For a bulky ground and one with high Attack, Hippowdon, Swampert and even Rhyperior are better. For a Ice Shard user, he lacks STAB, and has pitiful results. Scizor's Bullet Punch does more damage than a x2 super effective Ice Shard and does >50% to Salamance.
Porygon-Z - bad. Lacks speed and is walled by Blissey.
Dragonite - bad. He has a hard time separating himself from Salamance, especially when his most common set is one that Salamance is completely better at utilising - Dragonite's other sets usually aren't worth the team slot.
Electivire - Not overrated. Does get walled by Cresselia, but she at least lacks a reliable recovery move, so damage done to her brings her closer to her death, unlike Blissey. As well, Electivire has fantastic type coverage and resists Bullet Punch. He always gets a speed boost thanks to Thunderwave and TBolt being so common and the element of surprise. Bulky grounds only wall him if he is sufficiently healthy. However, I admit that his Dusknoir, Cresselia and Swampert weaknesses are very disturbing. I feel that Dusknoir isn't common, and Swampert is a beast to take down, but I understand why he is believed to be overrated.
Ninjask - To call a pokemon with Speed Boost, 160 Base Speed and Baton Pass overrated is insane. Substitute protects you from priority attacks, the most common Taunt lead (Azelf) hates X-Scissor and Roar/WW isn't as common as it once was - many Swampert forgo Roar for SR, and Hippowdon's usage is dropping. Skarmory is mauled by Magnezone.
Gliscor - As a physical wall - overrated. He has to overspecialise in speed to beat Lucario, taking away much of his walling potential. If I want a Ground Wall with a recovery move, I'll use Hippowdon. As a Baton Passer, he isn't overrated thanks to Taunt.
Except for the fact that when you see Ninjask, a first turn switch into Steelix owns it. What's he gonna do, sub then BP to exploud on the second turn to counter your roar, worst case. You have to switch out of overhead, so you've got a -2satk+1speed exploud behind a sub, and you've probably got a bulky water out, which shuts down Exploud completely. Ninjask has been legal in format2 since day 1, and we've never had any trouble with it. It's just too easy to stop baton pass teams.
Dusknoir has access to pain split and taunt though, two useful moves that separate Dusknoir from the Rotom appliances. Taunt shuts down walls and set-uppers completely.
just giving that a mention.
Bah, I've never seen painsplit as anything but "meh." blocked by substitute, thwarted by enemies with less HP, and oh so predictable. >>
Dusknoir's speed isn't exactly "taunt-worthy" either (though I guess it could be used in conjunction with trick room, but that seems like a waste of trick-room turns).
Dusknoir's speed isn't exactly "taunt-worthy" either (though I guess it could be used in conjunction with trick room, but that seems like a waste of trick-room turns).
It does have arena trap, and you souldn't be using trio on ghosts and psychics anyway, because there are other pokemon that handle it better. Sucker Punch is useful against really powerful attacks like explosion or if you use a Band Dugtrio for the extra power boost. When I use dugrio on a team, it's only there to trap/kill certain counters, like the electric attacker you use against my rain dance team or my gyrardos team. I also usually pair it with an intimidator so that I can lower a pokemon's attack even if it does get off a dragon dance.
@Azelf/Zam against Tyranitar-- Tyranitar's special defense is monstrous, and it can be ev'd to always survive a focus blast (and frankly, 70% accuracy moves are not my thing). Azelf can at least accomplish his goal of getting SR up.
That's actually quite convincing. O.O
That's actually quite convincing. O.O
....Then who would you use Sucker Punch on, if not ghosts and psychics?
...ALL of the OU Pokemon who learn Explosion but can be trapped by Dugtrio are Steels. So why would you use Sucker Punch and not Earthquake in that situation? Really, the only OU Pokemon who I could think of that Sucker Punch would be remotely useful on is perhaps a Jolteon that is not trapped on Thunderbolt, as he is faster than Dugtrio and is not resistant to Dark. And even then, you're still setting yourself up and giving your opponent a free turn.
Still a bad thing, as he does get +1 speed. From my perspective, one should attempt to prevent their opponent from getting as free many turns as possible, and Dugtrio gives your opponent that. Consequently, its role as a revenge-killer is completely overrated.
I agree Pain Split is pretty meh, but not because it's predictable. Predictability doesn't make a move bad; look at Wish on Blissey.
I use my Trio with a choice band, so when my opponent sends out that frail pokemon that's faster than mine, I sucker punch to Ko it before it can attack. There aren't too many things to use it on, but it's still pretty useful to have it.
kay said:
I use my Dugtrio with a choice band, so I'd use sucker punch if my opponent is faster unles EQ or Rock Slide/Stone Edge is super effective and a OHKO. It's just a matter of knowing your damage calcs. Sucker punch is also a good bailout move if you've mistakenly let your opponent set up. For example, if a mence sets up a couple of DD's, you can bring in Dugtrio to sucker punch it before it gets an attack off.
kay said:
Any choice user can be a liability because it can give your opponent a "free turn." That's why defense is important to consider when you build a team.
Yeah, my thoughts
As far as a transition Dual Screener goes, he sucks compared to Bronzong. As a lead however, he is definitely the best dual screener bar Deoxys-S (but Encore does give him one little bump up).
As for his crappy defense, he packs just enough to survive what he needs to. This is what he survives after he sets a Reflect up (252 HP/0 Def):
CB Tyranitar Pursuit
CB Weavile Night Slash
CB Scizor's BP does 49.36% max, a 3hko!
Those are probably the heftiest moves he will end up facing, and he survives them all well and good. And all these Choice users then provide perfect set up bait for something that resists these attacks.
Nothing else really compares as a good suicide Dual Screener. Memento Dual Screen Uxie is cool, but it is pwned by Taunt from anything, while Alakazam easily 2hkoes the only faster Taunter, Aerodactyl.
He is beaten Weavile leads if they don't fake out off the bat, but you can't win everything.
The difference is that when you can predict pain-split you can do something about it (switch to a weak pokemon, use substitute). With Wish, there's really not much you can do about it. Predictability matters in conjunction with the options in leaves.
You saved me 10 minutes of typing. I agree on every last thing you said. I'm not sure Ninjask is OHKOed by Bullet Punch, but yeah.
I'd never call an OU Pokemon "bad."
Lee said:
The fact that Zam has Encore, and higher speed makes him a better one time Dual Screener. Instead of Exploding on the incoming Rotom, you just die. But really, focus on Encore. With a few screens up, your opponent won't try to kill you because they know it'll do a lot less damage. Thus they will try and set up or spread status. If you Encore them, they are pretty much useless and you get a free switch.
Your average Azelf has a 0% chance of beating Heatran, while Alakazam has a 70% chance, thanks to Focus Blast. 10 more base special attack does go some ways too, netting you cool kills on stuff like Salamence after Stealth Rock. You also outspeed enemy Azelf, and Starmie. No worry about that.
Ninjask is always OHKOd by a CB/Life Orb Bullet Punch from a Scizor unless you have max HP EVs.
Jolly Weavile however, never 1hkoes if you are at perfect health (very close, but you always live, by like .7%). Your calcs are based off Adamant Weavile; you outspeed it in that case.
Still, I don't believe that is the only thing he does better. 120 base speed is pretty cool, since you can outpseed Azelf and Starmie, and 135 SpA is really sweet when using a STAB psychic.I would say he is the better user of Specs; the whole point of specs is to spam good neutral coverage attacks and hit hard with them. Between Psychic and Focus Blast, he does the job pretty well, and together with Signal Beam, HP Fire, or Shadow Ball backing him up, along with his higher speed and SpA, he definitely does the job better than Azelf.
Zam doesn't answer all of those things though: if you need dual screen and encore, what's your fourth move?
Focus Blast? Okay, you have a 70% chance of beating leading tars, adamant weaviles (if those even still exist) and incoming heatrans (who the hell switches heatran in on alakazam?). Encore still messes with Azelf but you can't HURT it. Starmie hoses you, and ghosts put you in a 50/50 situation (you can encore and die if they attack, or switch out and they set up for free). That's BAD.
So, if we don't like 50/50s and 70% chances...Psychic? Well now we lose to Tyranitar, all Weavile, and random steels can come in on us all day. Something with brick break is just going to come in and break your stuff.
Alakazam is not OU material. It never has been, and never will be. Neither are many others of the supposedly large format we're currently playing. They're situational at best, and that's all there is to it. OU is a 20-pokemon metagame, tops; you're just ruling out the fact that Pokemon is very much about surprise and janky tech. Anything, if used correctly and with the element of surprise, can turn a match. That doesn't make it format-defining.
Focus Blast? Okay, you have a 70% chance of beating leading tars, adamant weaviles (if those even still exist) and incoming heatrans (who the hell switches heatran in on alakazam?). Encore still messes with Azelf but you can't HURT it. Starmie hoses you, and ghosts put you in a 50/50 situation (you can encore and die if they attack, or switch out and they set up for free). That's BAD.
So, if we don't like 50/50s and 70% chances...Psychic? Well now we lose to Tyranitar, all Weavile, and random steels can come in on us all day. Something with brick break is just going to come in and break your stuff.
Alakazam is not OU material. It never has been, and never will be. Neither are many others of the supposedly large format we're currently playing. They're situational at best, and that's all there is to it. OU is a 20-pokemon metagame, tops; you're just ruling out the fact that Pokemon is very much about surprise and janky tech. Anything, if used correctly and with the element of surprise, can turn a match. That doesn't make it format-defining.
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