Salamence Testing: A Feasible Proposition?

[QibingZero]

I don't buy this. How can an attack type be "broken"? Why would you try to ban only certain moves... this opens up a whole new problem and is the epitome of "ban happy". Flygon's usage went up because Garchomp is nonexistant and Ground types are hard to come by these days. Kingdra's use went up not just because of Outrage, but the fact that hes the only Dragon not weak to ice that can abuse Dragon Dance + Outrage. You could theoretically say this is Outrage's fault, but Kingdra would probably be in the same position if it got a physical Dragon STAB other than Outrage (say "Dragon Tail" 80 BP). It's more the fact that kingdra did finally get a physical STAB.

I'm sorry, but, as I'll note in response to Blame Game, labelling me and others 'ban happy' is not an acceptable argument. I don't see how you can say Flygon's usage went up because 'Ground types are hard to come by'. Garchomp's banning only helped it in the sense that Flygon was beaten out by 2 speed.

That's a joke right? Flygon saw no use when Garchomp was being used... why? it was outclassed in every way shape and form. Period. Even if Chomp had 100 Base Speed, I'm sure the 130 Atk, and 95 / 85 / 107 Defenses had something to do with it as well...

This is complete BS and I even mentioned why Garchomp did not totally outclass Flygon. U-turn, one of the best moves period, is the biggest reason. Levitate is the other reason, giving Flygon many more opportunites to come in, and allowing it to take much less residual damage on average.

So basically, we are turning the game into a stall fuck-fest? Seriously, Salamence is one of the best, if not the best mixed sweeper / wall-breaker in the game. Yes, he can be tough for a stall team to handle... but the same shit can be said about Infernape, SD Lucario, MixDragonite, Mixed Kingdra, etc.

And so then why does the possible removal of Salamence threaten to turn the game into a stall fest? Especially considering stall teams still have to worry about those dangerous sweepers you mentioned... And besides, if Salamence is the only thing holding the game back from being nothing but stall (having a hard time keeping a straight face here), doesn't that say quite a lot about how strong it is in the first place?

And speaking of Dragonite, what makes Salamence uber that doesn't apply to Dragonite? Intimidate? Don't even try it. I dont hear people screaming "uber" for Salamence' intimidate. DD + Outrage? Dragonite had it first. Draco Meteor / Outrage Mixmence? Nope, doesn't wall-break as smoothly as Mixnite (just ask Blissey). Choice Band Mence? Dragonite has the same success, and actually gets Fire Punch to 2HKO Skarmory. Choice Specs Mence? Dragonite can do the same fucking thing... and Focus Punch Blissey...

I really don't understand why this keeps coming up. Salamence has 110SpAtk and 100Spe to Dragonite's 100/80. Come on, 80 speed. If you can't see why that's a huge deal, I don't think we can even continue rational discussion here.

A bunch of stuff

I respect you as a poster, even though I disagree with you the vast majority of the time. It's just that if I actually respond to your arguments here, it's going to go around in circles for quite a long time without ever solving anything. Why? Well, the problem is we disagree on a key position that specific arguments like these do not actually address.

What I'm talking about is the fact that you view Pokemon in terms of other competitive games, and thus assume that less bans are always preferable. Personally, I think you take even that argument to an extreme level, but the issue here is only that we disagree at all. I simply do not agree that Pokemon is like any other competitive game, and thus I don't think that we can apply that standard (or any other) without significant argument on why it applies to Pokemon as well.

I think that until we (Smogon as a whole) can come to a conclusion on this, there are still going to be masses of unproductive arguments about each proposed suspect or clause. Everyone has their own opinion on what kind of a ban is acceptable and which one is not, hence why we're even having the argument in this thread about revenge killing (which I plan to follow up on when I have more time).

 

[IcyMan28]

I'm sorry, but, as I'll note in response to Blame Game, labelling me and others 'ban happy' is not an acceptable argument. I don't see how you can say Flygon's usage went up because 'Ground types are hard to come by'. Garchomp's banning only helped it in the sense that Flygon was beaten out by 2 speed.

This is complete BS and I even mentioned why Garchomp did not totally outclass Flygon. U-turn, one of the best moves period, is the biggest reason. Levitate is the other reason, giving Flygon many more opportunites to come in, and allowing it to take much less residual damage on average.

So if Flygon really does occupy such a unique niche in the metagame, why did it only just recently become OU? Honestly, if it were as good as you say it is, people would have been using it alongside Garchomp, instead of replacing it with Garchomp.

And so then why does the possible removal of Salamence threaten to turn the game into a stall fest? Especially considering stall teams still have to worry about those dangerous sweepers you mentioned... And besides, if Salamence is the only thing holding the game back from being nothing but stall (having a hard time keeping a straight face here), doesn't that say quite a lot about how strong it is in the first place?

He may not single-handedly rip stall apart, but as we continue to become suspicious of every pokemon that comes close to the number one spot, we will find ourselves with alot less options to choose from.

I really don't understand why this keeps coming up. Salamence has 110SpAtk and 100Spe to Dragonite's 100/80. Come on, 80 speed. If you can't see why that's a huge deal, I don't think we can even continue rational discussion here.

Because they have what is essentially the same movepool. What Salamence has in the form of extra speed and sp.atk, Dragonite has Thunderbolt, Focus Punch, Superpower, etc. It hits just as hard as Salamence with a DDOutrage set, if you want to play that game, and the Specs Set has Focus Punch to destroy Blissey, Heatran, and Empoleon all in one move. And whereas Mence likes to run Naive for the mixed wallbreaker set, Dragonite can actually afford to be slower (thanks to its bulk) and invest more in its offenses. Oh, and Superpower / Focus Punch > Outrage for Bliss.

I respect you as a poster, even though I disagree with you the vast majority of the time. It's just that if I actually respond to your arguments here, it's going to go around in circles for quite a long time without ever solving anything. Why? Well, the problem is we disagree on a key position that specific arguments like these do not actually address.

What I'm talking about is the fact that you view Pokemon in terms of other competitive games, and thus assume that less bans are always preferable. Personally, I think you take even that argument to an extreme level, but the issue here is only that we disagree at all. I simply do not agree that Pokemon is like any other competitive game, and thus I don't think that we can apply that standard (or any other) without significant argument on why it applies to Pokemon as well.

I think that until we (Smogon as a whole) can come to a conclusion on this, there are still going to be masses of unproductive arguments about each proposed suspect or clause. Everyone has their own opinion on what kind of a ban is acceptable and which one is not, hence why we're even having the argument in this thread about revenge killing (which I plan to follow up on when I have more time).

I won't argue with this, as there is nothing to say.

My question is, how many people need to support a ban for it to be actually considered in PR?

 

[lilyhollow]

I respect you as a poster, even though I disagree with you the vast majority of the time. It's just that if I actually respond to your arguments here, it's going to go around in circles for quite a long time without ever solving anything. Why? Well, the problem is we disagree on a key position that specific arguments like these do not actually address.

What I'm talking about is the fact that you view Pokemon in terms of other competitive games, and thus assume that less bans are always preferable. Personally, I think you take even that argument to an extreme level, but the issue here is only that we disagree at all. I simply do not agree that Pokemon is like any other competitive game, and thus I don't think that we can apply that standard (or any other) without significant argument on why it applies to Pokemon as well.

I think that until we (Smogon as a whole) can come to a conclusion on this, there are still going to be masses of unproductive arguments about each proposed suspect or clause. Everyone has their own opinion on what kind of a ban is acceptable and which one is not, hence why we're even having the argument in this thread about revenge killing (which I plan to follow up on when I have more time).

It's not just that I view Pokemon the same way that I view other competitive games; though that's entirely true, I think I have gone through certain lengths to actually justify that position beyond just saying "that's what everyone else does" (which was pretty much the main problem I had with most of Colin's arguments). Obviously I haven't made it painfully clear that my view is the correct one or anything like that, but I've definitely made the effort to support it in a way that's actually relevant to this community. I'm not sure how well my posts have been conveying that, but in any case I couldn't agree more with this part of your post.

 

[QibingZero]

So if Flygon really does occupy such a unique niche in the metagame, why did it only just recently become OU? Honestly, if it were as good as you say it is, people would have been using it alongside Garchomp, instead of replacing it with Garchomp.

Since when does noting that Garchomp did not completely outclass Flygon equate to saying Flygon had a unique niche that was so important that we should have seen it more often?

He may not single-handedly rip stall apart, but as we continue to become suspicious of every pokemon that comes close to the number one spot, we will find ourselves with alot less options to choose from.

This is incredibly wrong, and it only takes a quick glance at the Uber metagame to realize it. First note that the Uber metagame allows every pokemon. Now ask yourself how many options you actually have to choose from. Most of the basis for a test on Salamence is that it's banning would actually increase the amount of options available. After all, that's why standard does not include pokemon like Kyogre and Rayquaza.


Beside that, you're completely missing exactly how substantial 100 base speed vs 80 is. No. Gaining those moves does not, in any way, make up for it.

Also, putting your comments inside the actual quotes is really not helpful to the people who might be trying to respond to you. Heh.

 

[Icalasari]

Erm, I've read a bit of this thread, and noticed some discussion about Draco Meteor and Outrage (and them possibly being banned)

If they are the problem, then why not ban them instead of the Pokemon themselves? After all, isn't Double Team banned due to its capability of making a battle one sided?

 

[Relictivity]

Originally Posted by IcyMan28


He may not single-handedly rip stall apart, but as we continue to become suspicious of every pokemon that comes close to the number one spot, we will find ourselves with alot less options to choose from.



Sorry Icy Man, I could not get the formatting to work right, so one thing.

Icy Man, this is not the reason we would like to test Salamence. Because testing for this reason alone would not be correct. If I can state so (although I am not going to argue it, I am not going to risk posting therymon on accident), we want to test Salamence because of the way it's versatility limits the metagame in viable pokemon. It's almost as if the metagame orbits around what won't get setup upon by the major threats of the metagame (that is what centralization means, although I'm not sure that's valid anymore). Salamence sets up and destrous large portions of the metagame. Although I realize some may disagree with me for this reason, so oh well, I'm sure they have their reasons too.

Note: If anyone views this as therymon, please PM me so I can change it. Before something worse happens.

 

[Misa]

If they are the problem, then why not ban them instead of the Pokemon themselves? After all, isn't Double Team banned due to its capability of making a battle one sided?

If we were to ban the moves instead of the pokemon, the "said" pokemon would still stay in OU/Uber. It's like saying that banning Outrage on a Garchomp would allow Garchomp back into OUs, not to mention the game itself would be less varied. For example, if we banned the move "recover" or "wish", it would just lead to a more heavily offensive metagame; no variation in strategies at all.


Anyways, after a lot of thinking, I think that Salamence isn't really that big of a threat as most people view him to be.
-Weakness to Stealth Rock
-Needs Life Orb to maximize sweeping potential, thus Salamence wears out quickly.
-Gets hampered by Thunder Wave
-There's solid, definite counter for Salamence in general, unlike Garchomp.

The fact that Salamence is weak to Stealth Rock and usually requires life orb in order to sweep is a pretty good reason he's not considered broken. Also, just adding that removing Salamence from the metagame makes OU much more of a stallfest than it already is.

 

[reyscarface]

Salamence has a lot of power, yes. But it gets walled easily and everyone can easily bring an Ice Sharder to finish the Salamence while it set-ups.

Being weak to SR are very bad news to Sally, it kills the potential switch in-out strategy.

After Intimidate, and SR, Salamence is still 2HKOd by CB Scizor's Bullet Punch, which is a cross on Salamence's Ubers passport.

Salamence has a decent speed, but thats it. It gets easily revenge killed if it doesnt have a DD.

Salamence is good, but not uber.

 

[Misa]

Salamence has a lot of power, yes. But it gets walled easily and everyone can easily bring an Ice Sharder to finish the Salamence while it set-ups.
Believe it or not, there are only a few things that can wall Salamence completely, regardless of which set. Things like Celebi and Suicune have trouble switching in on Draco Meteors, while things like Blissey get hit by Outrage/Dragon Claw.

The only thing holding salamence back is the amount of prediction one has to make, and the fact that Salamence is just bait for revenge killers like Mamoswine and Scizors.

Salamence has a decent speed, but thats it. It gets easily revenge killed if it doesnt have a DD.
It doesn't matter if Salamence has like 6+ attack and speed, because Ice Shard makes Salamence cry either way. (Disregarding Yache Berry)

Salamence is good, but not uber.
Hopefully most of us reached this same conclusion when this thread started.

 

[reyscarface]

Believe it or not, there are only a few things that can wall Salamence completely, regardless of which set. Things like Celebi and Suicune have trouble switching in on Draco Meteors, while things like Blissey get hit by Outrage/Dragon Claw.

Nothing walls completely Latios or Infernape neither. The best thing to do against these kind of threats with a lot of sets is scouting, not switching just for fun.
A lot of walls depend on the set the opponent is using. Like if you have a whole physical infernape, then Hippowdon is a wall, but if the Infernape uses Grass Knot, then its not a counter anymore.
Again, you may overpredict grass knot, switch to a special counter, it SDs on your face, and tears up your whole team.
Prediction + Scouting is your best bet.

It doesn't matter if Salamence has like 6+ attack and speed, because Ice Shard makes Salamence cry either way. (Disregarding Yache Berry)

With that i meant that you dont have a powerful priority user. I mean like, if Salamence is infront of a 30% Milotic, the Salamence needs to finish the Milotic without seting up a DD, cuz Milotic can KO with Ice beam. If Salamence chooses to attack, you bring your revenge killer (Heatran, Infernape, ETC.) and hes death, or he can switch out and get dented by SR when he comes back.

 

[Relictivity]

Nothing walls completely Latios or Infernape neither. The best thing to do against these kind of threats with a lot of sets is scouting, not switching just for fun.
A lot of walls depend on the set the opponent is using. Like if you have a whole physical infernape, then Hippowdon is a wall, but if the Infernape uses Grass Knot, then its not a counter anymore.
Again, you may overpredict grass knot, switch to a special counter, it SDs on your face, and tears up your whole team.
Prediction + Scouting is your best bet.



With that i meant that you dont have a powerful priority user. I mean like, if Salamence is infront of a 30% Milotic, the Salamence needs to finish the Milotic without seting up a DD, cuz Milotic can KO with Ice beam. If Salamence chooses to attack, you bring your revenge killer (Heatran, Infernape, ETC.) and hes death, or he can switch out and get dented by SR when he comes back.

Actually, much of the reason Latios isn't walled so easily, is because unless you have Bissey, you can expect to take lethal damage from Choice Specs Draco Meteor. Infernape, on the other hand, has to deal with the fact that unless it can OHKO the other pokemon, it will likely get OHKOd. Also, if the pokemon is that much of a dangerous threat, you don't have "time" to scout. You need to get rid of that pokemon NOW. Not to mention that the opponent can outpredict you.

And much of the time you do need a priority move, else you can expect Mence to ruin one of your pokemon so that it cannot be used. And if that is a prime pokemon you need, then Salamence has already done it's job. What pokemon are you willing to sacrifice to kill Salamence?

Mmmm... Why would Salamence come in a Milotic. That would be just... well, I'm not going to mention it. No, you will never come into that situation without your revenge killer being put into danger (assuming standard life orb set). Your revenge killer must be scarfed, assuming that the opponent did not Dragon Dance.

 

[Imran]

You are right Erazor, I think we need to frame this somewhere so that everyone can see it:

Revenge killing is not a valid argument against a pokemon's power unless the revenge killer is more dangerous than the pokemon it's 'killing'

If you come in and revenge with a Weavile, first off they may well switch out to something like Metagross, which Agilities up whilst you switch. This way you have just let in another powerful sweeper, as they continue to keep the pressure on you, and it is you who is forced to go on the defensive again. Even if they stay in and you do revenge kill the Salamence there are many threats in the metagame that can put pressure on Weavile, and put you back on the defensive. Obviously I can reverse this and make the argument that "Rotom is not Uber because it can be easily revenge killed" because it allows dangerous threats like Salamence in, who can get off a free Draco Meteor, this way you probably either have to sacrifice your Rotom, or sacrifice another Pokemon to keep your Rotom alive.

I would also like to go back to something that Blame Game said, about the Pokemon community not really knowing the full impacts of the bans we are placing. I can only stress here that the community can learn from experience, I would rather mess up a few tiers now, if that means we can have solid policies regarding bans in the future. Obviously there will always be new people, but the more we document the progress we are making (see stickied portrait of an Uber) the more newer members can see how the process works and also the reasoning behind it. I also do not see how "cross-banning" is a bad thing, if we can come up with a system that defines when it is right to ban a move, when it is right to ban a Pokemon etc... then I really see no problem. Working from the premise of "diversity makes a good metagame" again, I don't see how we shouldn't simply look at both sides of it: "Will removing Salamence or removing Draco Meteor make the metagame more diverse?"

I think the largest problem with that statement is "time." We really don't have the time to test a ladder with both Salamence and Draco Meteor, a ladder without Salamence, and a ladder without Draco Meteor, and then rinse and repeat for every Pokemon. Seeing as "we want to get the suspect process done as fast as possible" I really don't see how it would be practical. I would love to see us come up with an all encompassing banning system, that tries to get to the core of the problems, whatever they may be, but at the end of the day I feel it is not practical simply because "it would all be theory" we don't have the time to test these things in practise.

 

[reyscarface]

Mmmm... Why would Salamence come in a Milotic. That would be just... well, I'm not going to mention it. No, you will never come into that situation without your revenge killer being put into danger (assuming standard life orb set). Your revenge killer must be scarfed, assuming that the opponent did not Dragon Dance.

It was an example. Not a common one but its still an example. -.-

 

[noob3]

Why are we looking at Salamence as a suspect? Why aren't we looking towards other problamatic pokemon, like Scizor?

 

[Relictivity]

Why are we looking at Salamence as a suspect? Why aren't we looking towards other problamatic pokemon, like Scizor?

Because Salamence (and Scizor too) are admitedly, problematic. So we look at them. Just like if we think something is misplaced in Ubers because of assumed strength (like Latias), we consider them for unbanning. So every pokemon needs to get into it's appropriate tier, not necessarily the one Nintendo intended it to be in (although often it is).

 

[IcyMan28]

Since when does noting that Garchomp did not completely outclass Flygon equate to saying Flygon had a unique niche that was so important that we should have seen it more often?

While I'm not saying that Flygon is so important that we should have seen it more often, I am saying that we should have seen it more in general. The way you put it, you make it seem as though Levitate and U-Turn are godly traits that are more than enough to distinguish it from Garchomp. If that were the case, I think we would have seen a bit more of it than what we've recently seen.

This is incredibly wrong, and it only takes a quick glance at the Uber metagame to realize it. First note that the Uber metagame allows every pokemon. Now ask yourself how many options you actually have to choose from. Most of the basis for a test on Salamence is that it's banning would actually increase the amount of options available. After all, that's why standard does not include pokemon like Kyogre and Rayquaza.

I'm not really understanding what you are trying to say here, so I'll leave it alone for now.

Beside that, you're completely missing exactly how substantial 100 base speed vs 80 is. No. Gaining those moves does not, in any way, make up for it.

So its faster than Dragonite, yes. But then, it ties with the plethora of pokemon in the base 100 speed group. Slap a Scarf on any one of them and it instantly becomes a coin flip. Dragonite may have 80 base speed, but once it DDs it outspeeds everything unScarved. In both cases, priority / Scarfer / wall is what stops DDOutrage.

Also, putting your comments inside the actual quotes is really not helpful to the people who might be trying to respond to you. Heh.

My apologies.

Icy Man, this is not the reason we would like to test Salamence. Because testing for this reason alone would not be correct. If I can state so (although I am not going to argue it, I am not going to risk posting therymon on accident), we want to test Salamence because of the way it's versatility limits the metagame in viable pokemon. It's almost as if the metagame orbits around what won't get setup upon by the major threats of the metagame (that is what centralization means, although I'm not sure that's valid anymore). Salamence sets up and destrous large portions of the metagame. Although I realize some may disagree with me for this reason, so oh well, I'm sure they have their reasons too.

The metagame has always revolved around not getting set up on. This does not apply exclusively to Salamence - if Tar sets up on you, GG. If Scizor sets up on you, GG. If Jirachi sets up on you, GG. I'm not sure how this proves that Salamence is any more difficult to deal with than any other sweeper.

Actually, much of the reason Latios isn't walled so easily, is because unless you have Bissey, you can expect to take lethal damage from Choice Specs Draco Meteor. Infernape, on the other hand, has to deal with the fact that unless it can OHKO the other pokemon, it will likely get OHKOd. Also, if the pokemon is that much of a dangerous threat, you don't have "time" to scout. You need to get rid of that pokemon NOW. Not to mention that the opponent can outpredict you.

The same situation applies to Lucario. Zapdos. Scizor. Obviously, if you can't do significant damage to another pokemon, the opponent will have already switched to a check - which is all that you need in today's metagame. As far as the scouting is concerned, that really isn't an issue that is exclusive to Salamence. Is it CBTar or Boah? Will Infernape Plot or Dance? Should I try and take on Lucario with Gliscor or risk an HP Ice to the face? Versatility is a factor, yes, but it also tends to be accompanied by moveslot syndrome.

Because Salamence (and Scizor too) are admitedly, problematic. So we look at them. Just like if we think something is misplaced in Ubers because of assumed strength (like Latias), we consider them for unbanning. So every pokemon needs to get into it's appropriate tier, not necessarily the one Nintendo intended it to be in (although often it is).

75% of the people who have seen this thread disagree with your opinion. Whereas it was a close vote with Shaymin-S, and an obvious uber decision for Garchomp, Salamence doesn't seem to be as much of a problem for most people.

 

[Relictivity]

Icy Man, they are problematic - otherwise, the thread would have stayed minimal in posts, but already, it has grown. We wouldn't be having any opposistion if they weren't problematic at all. Notice I am specifically avoiding saying "They should go in a category". I am saying "The reason we have this thread is to determine that we need to decide whether to tetst them." If they can easily cause teams trouble unless a counter is specifically designated to them, that means they potentially could be "problematic." Notice I did not say Uber. I said, they would need to be observed.

Hope I wasn't too defensive, if so, sorry.
I hope this wasn't going too far...

 

[TVboyCanti]

Erm, I've read a bit of this thread, and noticed some discussion about Draco Meteor and Outrage (and them possibly being banned)

If they are the problem, then why not ban them instead of the Pokemon themselves? After all, isn't Double Team banned due to its capability of making a battle one sided?

A very astute question that remains unanswered. You must remember that Smogon does not ban attacks on the same premises that it bans pokemon. Smogon has a long time bias against the RNG (Random Number Generator, aka hax). Since DT and OHKO rely soley on the RNG for their effects, and can only be countered by some "obscure" moves and abilities, they have been deemed too luck based to have a place in our "skill-based metagame".

While Draco Meteor and Outrage do have RNG elements to them (a 10% failure rate and being locked into one attack for variable turns), Their effects can still be lessened or amplified via stats, typing etc. A skilled player can lessen the effect of these attacks via switching to a steel type or a pokemon with high defensive statistics, or using one of his own attacks to kill the offending dragon or lessen it's attacking power.

That is the reason in a nutshell that Outrage/DM, nor any other attack, will never be considered seriously as ban-worthy. It is obviously flawed, but that is the reasoning.

 

[Tangerine]

A very astute question that remains unanswered. You must remember that Smogon does not ban attacks on the same premises that it bans pokemon. Smogon has a long time bias against the RNG (Random Number Generator, aka hax). Since DT and OHKO rely soley on the RNG for their effects, and can only be countered by some "obscure" moves and abilities, they have been deemed too luck based to have a place in our "skill-based metagame".

While Draco Meteor and Outrage do have RNG elements to them (a 10% failure rate and being locked into one attack for variable turns), Their effects can still be lessened or amplified via stats, typing etc. A skilled player can lessen the effect of these attacks via switching to a steel type or a pokemon with high defensive statistics, or using one of his own attacks to kill the offending dragon or lessen it's attacking power.

That is the reason in a nutshell that Outrage/DM, nor any other attack, will never be considered seriously as ban-worthy. It is obviously flawed, but that is the reasoning.

The bolded statement is completely false - we currently do not have a standard on "banning" moves. Does not mean that we will "never consider it as ban-worthy". If you wish to go on with the thread then I recommend attempting to wrap up the PR thread on banning moves.

 

[LoveDensity]

Why are we looking at Salamence as a suspect? Why aren't we looking towards other problamatic pokemon, like Scizor?

There are teams more geared to hinder Scizor, but less teams geared to face Salamence(DD LO Outrage or MixMence.)

 

[Misa]

There are teams more geared to hinder Scizor, but less teams geared to face Salamence(DD LO Outrage or MixMence.)

Also adding that Salamence is able to beat its potential counters, unlike Scizor, who tends to get either trapped by Magnezone or get taken down by Choice Scarf Heatran all the time.

Like I said, the only solid counter for Salamence right now is Cress, and since Salamence is a lot more unpredictable than Scizor could ever hope to be, it's a lot harder to counter than Scizor imo. That reason alone is probably enough to consider a suspect test.

 

[wildfire393]

Like I said, the only solid counter for Salamence right now is Cress

This needs to be addressed. The only "solid" counter for Salamence is not Cress. There are many, many solid counters to Salamence, depending on its set.
Cress is just a Pokemon that 100% of the time will counter any set that Salamence can throw at it. There's a big difference there. Specsmence is walled hard by Blissey and some other dedicated Special Walls, or just through sheer prediction (switching a Bulky Steel in on a predicted Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse, switching a Bulky Water in on Hydro Pump, switching Heatran or a Bulky Water/Rock in on Fire Blast) and the fact that he gets owned by residual damage. DDMence can be forced out or revenged by Ice Sharders or Scarfed Pokemon with speed > base 100 and and Ice move. The reason Cress is so good is that she can switch in to either of these sets. If you switch your Starmie in to a Specs Draco Meteor, it gets fried. If you switch your Blissey in to a Dragon Dance, it's getting fried. Cress just boasts the ability to live either two consecutive Specs Draco Meteors or a +1 Life Orb Outrage, which very little else can boast.
That was honestly the reason why Garchomp was so broken. It was something that would take very specific counters, much like mence, but nothing could boast the ability to counter it 100% of the time due to Sand Veil. Especially with Garchomp's bulkier defenses and Yache Berry, almost any attack would take minimum of 2 hits to KO. And when 100% accuracy attacks are reduced to 80%, the chance of landing those two hits becomes 64%.

 

[BalancedPower]

Also adding that Salamence is able to beat its potential
Like I said, the only solid counter for Salamence right now is Cress

Going to have to disagree with you on this one.
The fact that Stealth Rock does a massive 25% to Salamence is something to factor in first.
Unless you are going Specs, which is scary admittedly Salamence gets most of his fame and power from Life Orb, which with 25% really hampers his HP.
Lastly, his defense is not solid at all, and faces a major 4x resistance to Ice, where a fairly common priority move can be found (Ice Shard). Not to mention, you have Ice Beam/Hidden Power/Ice Punch, all of which are used.
Salamence is really strong don't get me wrong, but he is also really susceptible to destruction. As a result, Cresselia isn't the only counter, most Steel can do a good job as well, and many other Ice users that can take hits or are faster.

 

[Blln]

Can people stop using Ice Shard/revenge kill as an argument? Rayquaza dies just as easily to Ice Shard, is slower and therefore easier to revenge kill (if we ignore Extremespeed for the sake of the example) than Salamence, and is hit equally hard by Stealth Rock, but it is obviously Uber, while general consensus seems to be that Salamence is not, so really those points are meaningless; if you are arguing that Salamence is so definitely not a suspect then you need to prove what other factors there are that separate it from Rayquaza. Obviously Rayquaza hits much harder with its much higher offensive stats, but when you get down to it, it doesn't actually make all that much of a difference in that nothing can really wall either of them and the only way to beat them is through priority attacks, outspeeding and koing, or waiting for Life Orb and Sandstorm to take their toll. However, at some point we draw a line between just how "unwallable" something can be and still be OU, and I believe at the moment it is pretty unclear on which side of that line Salamence falls, and in my mind that warrants at least a test.

 

[Misa]

Unless you are going Specs, which is scary admittedly Salamence gets most of his fame and power from Life Orb, which with 25% really hampers his HP.
Lastly, his defense is not solid at all, and faces a major 4x resistance to Ice, where a fairly common priority move can be found (Ice Shard)

Don't you mean weakness?

Also, by meaning "solid" I was referring to a counter that can deal with all of the sets that Salamence can throw at it, thus Cress is the best example. Steel-types have a chance to get crippled by either Earthquake or Fire Blast, while Blissey is toast if it switches into an outrage, thinking that it's a Specs set instead. (Don't get me wrong, since Bronzong tends to counter Salamence all the time)

Oh, also defensive SUicune tends to counter Salamence quite well, since he can take pretty much anything Salamence and throws at and hits back with Ice beam (an example of a "complete" counter).

DDMence can be forced out or revenged by Ice Sharders or Scarfed Pokemon with speed > base 100 and and Ice move. The reason Cress is so good is that she can switch in to either of these sets.

Isn't this same for Garchomp as well? He always gets revenge-killed by Ice shards after killing something. Even Cress can survive a SD'd life orbed Outrage from Garchomp and OHKO back with Ice Beam.

edit: Note that revenge-killing doesn't mean counter, since a counter is something that can switch into an attack and cause an immediate threat. Revenge-killing isn't considered a counter since you have to sacrifice a pokemon in order to kill something. (This is why Garchomp was so threatening, since he was able to always take out a pokemon or two.)