CAP 7 CAP 7 - Part 11 - Attacking Moves Discussion

[jagged_angel]

STABed U-Turn serves no purpose other than making U-Turn more powerful, which doesn't help it Scout.

Making what is arguably the best scouting move more powerful Doesn't help it scout??!

Making U-Turn more powerful makes it more likely to be deemed worthy of a moveslot and therefore more likely to see use on its movesets. This Does help it scout as it encourages more people to keep U-Turn on the moveset and use this pokemon as a scout, its intended purpose. Having U-Turn do 1.5 times more damage means it will be used more.

STAB U-Turn also helps by combining the U-Turn and STAB moveslots. Many people will see U-Turn as a must on a scout, and STAB is always useful to have. Combining the two means you can have both in one moveslot and with so many different ways to scout, this needs all the moveslots it can get.

STABbed U-Turn is a huge benefit for the Ultimate Scout.

 

[Deck Knight]

@ Jagged Angel:

I'd prefer Steel U-Turn on the basis that nothing is immune to it. This is especially useful if, for some reason, people cast out Iron Head for some absurd reason.

As far as pending moves:

I support Aqua Tail, Body Slam, and Shadow Force.

AT provides useful coverage without eliminating a significant number of checks, Body Slam is a good support move, and Shadow Force is basically Dig on steroids, without the horrid EQ weakness.

I oppose Meteor Mash, Cross Chop, and Stone Edge.

The +1 Attack on Meteor Mash is mostly what concerns me, since it can turn this into a potluck sweeper. Cross Chop is too much, I don't think this should get a fighting move stronger than Brick Break. Stone Edge is also a bit too much above Rock Slide for my liking.

 

[Naxte]

If EOE wins, then from the looks of that art, I don't think it can achieve the Elemental punches, but instead, Earthquake looks viable.

And I agree with Doug on Iron Tail.

Art doesn't dictate movepool.

-Earthquake-Please no. If people are afraid of magnezone, they can use shed shell.

There's more use for EQ than just Magnezone, like making sure that all Steels don't solidly wall it; Fire Punch just doesn't cut it (even EQ barely 2HKOs Metagross and w/o SR, even a 2HKO isn't guaranteed). Even without Magnezone, bulky waters and grounds will still solidly wall it, and Magnezone can run Scarf if it really wants to beat CAP7. So, I don't see why we should limit CAP7 just so Magnezone can bat it.

 

[Deck Knight]

Quote Yilnath from Stat Rating Poll 1:

For some strange reason, from the concept assesment poll, where people were quite skeptical on CAP7 being somewhat sweeperish at all, all the way up to here, where for some reason we need to sweep in order to properly scout, something went terribly wrong.

I agree with X-Act and Darkie, Movepool > Stats. I would've voted Good, but since I don't see that having a chance at winning, I voted Quite Good. Bandwagoning FTW.

Now is the time to put up or shutup, Quite Good supporters.

You got what you wanted on stats. Now support the expansive movepool you claimed would be CAP7's claim to fame. (Note: I'm not singling out Yilnath here, he hasn't even posted...)

 

[kaonohiokala]

Competitive moves it should get:

Stone Edge - This Pokemon needs a more reliable way to hit the vast majority of the metagame. With Rock being one of the most damaging types, it seems almost a necessity for CAP7 to get Rock-type moves. It provides a better way for hitting the many Flying-types that hit OU. Rock Slide is decent, but I feel that certain times, more power is required.

Iron Head - A reliable STAB move that matches with it's high speed. It can be used to threaten certain Rock- and Steel-type Pokemon to a certain extent.

Superpower - Rather than relying on Earthquake for it's Steel-bashing duties, I feel that Superpower would be more fitting. It provides a reduction in Attack to limit CAP7's raw sweeping power. This will also help in scouting, as a powerful one-time use move will more often force the opponent out than a less powerful one.

Shadow Force - Shadow Force really matches CAP7 as well. With it not being able to blocked by Protect and Detect, and the fact that you let your opponent know your chargin up for it, the most reliable way to avoid damage is to switch into something that can either handle the damage or be immune to it (Normal-types). This is a plus for revealing information about your opponent's team.

Dig - While not a primarily competitive move, Dig works similarly to Shadow Force in the way that it reveals information about the opponent's team, the difference being it's a weaker, can be blocked by Protect/Detect.


Competitive moves it shouldn't get:

Earthquake - As I mentioned in Superpower above, I feel that Superpower would be a better way for CAP7 to bash Steels.



EDIT: I've been wondering about CAP7's whole movepool/art thing and how they are "unrelated". So we are completely willing to give a Phantom Fox all of the punching moves? This confuses me....

 

[Infiltrator]

EDIT: I've been wondering about CAP7's whole movepool/art thing and how they are "unrelated". So we are completely willing to give a Phantom Fox all of the punching moves? This confuses me....

Yes, but they will be renamed is EoE's art wins.

 

[Infiltrator]

Making what is arguably the best scouting move more powerful Doesn't help it scout??!

Making U-Turn more powerful makes it more likely to be deemed worthy of a moveslot and therefore more likely to see use on its movesets. This Does help it scout as it encourages more people to keep U-Turn on the moveset and use this pokemon as a scout, its intended purpose. Having U-Turn do 1.5 times more damage means it will be used more.

STAB U-Turn also helps by combining the U-Turn and STAB moveslots. Many people will see U-Turn as a must on a scout, and STAB is always useful to have. Combining the two means you can have both in one moveslot and with so many different ways to scout, this needs all the moveslots it can get.

STABbed U-Turn is a huge benefit for the Ultimate Scout.

I'm liking the support my idea is getting... since some usersaid that it doesn't need STAB on u-turn. Also agreeing with Jagged Angel here.

Making CAP7 getting STAB on u-turn will make it's name as "Ultimate Scout" stand out more. This will also increase and help the purpose of scouting alot more.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Superpower - Rather than relying on Earthquake for it's Steel-bashing duties, I feel that Superpower would be more fitting. It provides a reduction in Attack to limit CAP7's raw sweeping power. This will also help in scouting, as a powerful one-time use move will more often force the opponent out than a less powerful one.

Why can't we just use Earthquake instead? If we're going to be using them to fend off Steel types off, why can't we just use EQ and be done with it. It can't sweep to save it's life so that's not the problem. It can barely 2HKO Metagross, Steelix, and possibly other things with EQ, so it can't be overpowering. If it's not going to break a Pokemon then I don't see why we shouldn't give it to CAP7. You say Superpower supposely helps it in scouting, but how does a move that make you weaker with every use more helpful than a reliable move?

What is with this irrational belief that Earthquake is break this Pokemon? Is the community just ignoring every Bulky Water, Ground, and anything with bulk in generally and putting all their energy onto saving Zone and Tran? That's wasteful regardless on how you look at it.

 

[Naxte]

Why can't we just use Earthquake instead? If we're going to be using them ot fend off Steel types, why can't we just use EQ and be done with it. It can't sweep to save it's life so that's not the problem. It can barely 2HKO Metagross, Steelix, and possibly other things with EQ, so it can't be overpowering. If it's not going to break a pokemon then I don't see why we shouldn't give it to CAP7.

What is with this irrational belief that Earthquake is break this Pokemon? Is the community just ignoring every Bulky Water, Ground, and anything with bulk in generally and putting all their energy onto saving Zone and Tran? That's wasteful regardless on how you look at it.

Also, one of the greatest competitors for Ghost in the secondary typing polls was Ground. Part of the reason for this was immunity to Thunder Wave, but another part was access to STAB EQ so it could threaten Steels and actually be decent offensively as a result, from what I can recall. Now that Ground didn't win and Ghost is it's secondary typing, I find it interesting that there is so much opposition to a weaker (unSTABed) Earthquake than the one desired, even though either way those same Steels like Magnezone and Heatran would have been able to capitalize on the same Fire and Ground weaknesses through careful prediction. (Really, ever since the secondary typing poll concluded, it seems that people have lost all desire for this thing to actually do much of anything offensively, and I'm really curious where all that went.)

EQ really isn't that powerful without STAB and with this thing's not-overly-high attack stat, so I'm not getting all the oppostion to it.

 

[Magmortified]

I'm not really sure on the idea of supporting a STAB U-Turn. Of course it'd be used more than regular U-Turn, but, ultimately, I don't think it really adds anything special to the purpose of Scouting.

For one thing, there's not much of a reason to not use U-Turn. It's supposed to be a scout. This thing isn't really that great a sweeper (again, we're looking at something along the lines of Ambipom, Tauros, etc. Not great sweepers as far as I'm aware). So you might as well use it to Scout if you use it at all. What's a great move for scouting? U-Turn.

Also, your STAB kind of forces you to switch out. That's kind of awkward to wield offensively... which is the main idea behind having a STAB.

 

[Solstice]

Im just going to mention once again Crush Claw. It has a similar aspect to it as Meteor Mash, by lowing your opponents defense you make them vulnerable to stronger attacks like Meteor Mash. With a 50% chance of lowering defense, even with its bad offensive typing, it could increase this guys ability to scout.

 

[TPM]

Are the Fangs considered competitive. Just mentioning it because of EoE's design.
Don't flame for mentioning art, they also have the flinch and status stuff.
Wouldn't Dig also be useful as it lets you see their Flyers/Levitators.
(sorry if its already been decided, I'm forgetful)

 

[Vividsketch]

Im just going to mention once again Crush Claw. It has a similar aspect to it as Meteor Mash, by lowing your opponents defense you make them vulnerable to stronger attacks like Meteor Mash. With a 50% chance of lowering defense, even with its bad offensive typing, it could increase this guys ability to scout.

With such a low base base power, no STAB and no coverage, Crush Claw is just never has the opportunity be useful enough even with a 50% defensive down.

Sure add it to the 'allowed list' if you want too. But no bodies very gonna run it on a set when there are simply better options.

 

[Infiltrator]

With such a low base base power, no STAB and no coverage, Crush Claw is just never has the opportunity be useful enough even with a 50% defensive down.

Sure add it to the 'allowed list' if you want too. But no bodies very gonna run it on a set when there are simply better options.

We could change the type for STAB, but Meteor Mash would still be a better option.

 

[ferron]

i know its gonna be a list, but these are the ones i haven't commented on yet (except for u-turn) and i want to give input on these moves.

YES
-U-Turn most of the best scouts in the game use this unSTABed to great effect. if you wanted it STABed you should have voted bug.
-Shadow Claw decent STAB, and not much it has SE on. i see no problem with this so long as there aren't stat ups on this poke.
-Iron Head STABed flinch with decent damage and 100 accuracy. this will probably be the bread and butter of this poke. it needs this.
-Elemental Punches/Fangs not overpowered while assisting coverage, i see no problem giving this to the poke.
-Aqua Tail now that i have been corrected (three times...) about the precedent, i can say that this poke has little to lose by using this and much to gain, with it being able to deal some damage to various pokes.
-Rock Slide decent coverage plus flinch makes CaP7 a happy poke. it has better accuracy that stone edge while not being a sweeping move.

NO
-Stone Edge this is a sweeping move, not a scouting move. add in the fact that it has low accuracy and i see no reason to choose this over rock slide.
-Cross Chop the only precedent on this is lucario, who only gains it by being a fighting poke. it doesnt really help with coverage since steel already covers 2 of its SE, ghost neutralizes another and fire punch/fang gets the third. plus how is this a scouting move?
-Meteor Mash iron head has better accuracy and flinch but at less power. if this was a sweeper i would be for meteor mash, but it's (once again) a scout.
-Earthquake if you wanted to be able to have this poke deal with steels you should have voted ground. accept your decisions already.

 

[Naxte]

-Earthquake[/b] if you wanted to be able to have this poke deal with steels you should have voted ground. accept your decisions already.

Why can't it deal with Steels while not being part ground? Either way it still would have been weak to fire and ground. Steel/Ground would have made Magnezone/Heatran more into revenge killers for this thing, but they could still potentailly handle it. But in any case I don't see why us choosing to not give it a STAB Earthquake is a good reason for why we shouldn't give it Earthquake at all.

 

[Naxte]

If it's not broken, then what's the problem with it having it? And it barely being able to 2HKO Steels like Metagross with EQ is better than it barely getting a 3HKO with Fire Punch. If it's not broken, and it helps it out without giving it very few counters (which it won't; bulky waters and grounds will still do a great job of walling this thing), then I see no reason to exclude it.

 

[ParadOxymoron]

A scout's version of Meteor Mash:

Mach Booster
Steel
Physical
50 Power
90% Accuracy
70% to boost Speed one stage.
10 PP​

A Physical Steel Charge Beam that boosts Speed instead of Special Attack!

I understand the want for a Steel move more awesome than Iron Head, but Meteor Mash is such a sweeper's move. This is much more conductive to the role of a scout as it is.

 

[Solstice]

A scout's version of Meteor Mash:

Mach Booster
Steel
Physical
50 Power
90% Accuracy
70% to boost Speed one stage.
10 PP​

A Physical Steel Charge Beam that boosts Speed instead of Special Attack!

I understand the want for a Steel move more awesome than Iron Head, but Meteor Mash is such a sweeper's move. This is much more conductive to the role of a scout as it is.

I like this idea, it gives the Pokemon a perfect move that isnt overpowering!

 

[reyscarface]

A scout's version of Meteor Mash:

Mach Booster
Steel
Physical
50 Power
90% Accuracy
70% to boost Speed one stage.
10 PP

A Physical Steel Charge Beam that boosts Speed instead of Special Attack!
​

I understand the want for a Steel move more awesome than Iron Head, but Meteor Mash is such a sweeper's move. This is much more conductive to the role of a scout as it is.

I cant find how this is helping to scout :/

 

[Objection]

I cant find how this is helping to scout :/

Because if you have a frail sweeper in play (Azelf, Gengar, Weavile, etc.), and then suddenly CAP7 can outspeed it without the need for a scarf, you're going to want to send in something that can take its hits rather than let your sweeper get killed.

 

[Naxte]

Because if you have a frail sweeper in play (Azelf, Gengar, Weavile, etc.), and then suddenly CAP7 can outspeed it without the need for a scarf, you're going to want to send in something that can take its hits rather than let your sweeper get killed.

But it's not that effective/dependable in practice, at least set up like it is now...
*P1 Sent out Azelf!*
*P2 sent out CAP7*
*CAP7 Frisked its foe and found a Focus Sash!"
*Azelf used Flamethrower!*
*CAP7 barely hangs on.*
*CAP7 used Mach Booster!*
*CAP7's speed rose!"
*CAP7 used Shadow Claw!"
*It's super-effective! Azelf hung on with its Focus Sash!"
*Azelf used Flamethrower!"
*CAP7 fainted.*

Either that, or it just puts up SR on one of the turns, meaning its job is done anyway.

And it won't work as a revenge kill either...
*P2 sent out CAP7!"
*Pointed rocks dug into CAP7! CAP7 lost 6% of its health!*
*CAP7's Focus Sash broke due to Stealth Rock!*
"CAP 7 Frisked Foe Stratagem and found a Life Orb!"
*Stratagem used Flamethrower"
*It's super-effective!*
*CAP7 fainted!"

Really, Bullet Punch would be able to perform such a role much better, actually having priority and similar power without having to risk not getting a speed boost. BP won't be too strong, since CAP7 doesn't have Technician, but it would still be a generally more reliable move in such a scenario, especially against Pokemon like Stratagem and Gengar.

 

[Knarglefigit]

But it's not that effective/dependable in practice, at least set up like it is now...
*P1 Sent out Azelf!*
*P2 sent out CAP7*
*CAP7 Frisked its foe and found a Focus Sash!"
*Azelf used Flamethrower!*
*CAP7 barely hangs on.*
*CAP7 used Mach Booster!*
*CAP7's speed rose!"
*CAP7 used Shadow Claw!"
*It's super-effective! Azelf hung on with its Focus Sash!"
*Azelf used Flamethrower!"
*CAP7 fainted.*

Actually, that wouldn't occur, since Mach Booster would do damage, breaking the Azelf's sash. Your other situation is still valid though.

 

[reyscarface]

But it's not that effective/dependable in practice, at least set up like it is now...
*P1 Sent out Azelf!*
*P2 sent out CAP7*
*CAP7 Frisked its foe and found a Focus Sash!"
*Azelf used Flamethrower!*
*CAP7 barely hangs on.*
*CAP7 used Mach Booster!*
*CAP7's speed rose!"
*CAP7 used Shadow Claw!"
*It's super-effective! Azelf hung on with its Focus Sash!"
*Azelf used Flamethrower!"
*CAP7 fainted.*

Errm, Mach Booster does damage, that means the sash breaks and can kill with Shadow Claw. But still, i find "Mach booster" kinda broken.

 

[Goodbar]

unSTABed it doesn't deal with them, it can't even scare them away in most cases since it can only do 2-3HKO.
plus in our metagame magnezone is barely used. so you are only really gonna be using for heatran, since the only other 2 top 10s likely to be hit (ttar and fridgit) are either faster, or laugh off the damage you could do.

There has been an influx in magnezones in the last month or so, and imo EQ is fully justified by magnezone, who will hinder this mon's scouting capabilities

I also see no point in mach booster or stab uturn unless someone wants to enlighten me