• Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!

Evasion: Hit or Miss?

That would work, except that not all teams run T-Spikes, and Taunt utterly stops Foresight.

Anyways, Bibarel actually can work in OU, according to the writeup (not that many people would, instead, many people would run it in UU, but then again, who knows)
 
So what is this set now?

Spiritomb with taunt, DT, and pain split leaving one slot for an attack?

Whatever attack he picks, he's not going to threaten much. Plus for taunt to even work, he'd have to predict and use it on the switch since he's so slow, eventually he'd mispredict/run out of taunts and get foresighted or hazed. I haven't really seen single set for anything that makes me think DT is not a complete waste of a moveslot.
 
I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with this. The DTer does not necessarily have to Taunt, it can DT on the switch in. It can do both. So you only have a 50% chance of sending in the appropriate counter, unless it's Gyarados, in which case, I would not send in a DTer weak to Gyarados in the first place. So these are the scenarios:

1. DTer DTs as you send in a Powerful Attacker (to be calculated)
2. DTer DTs as you send in a Taunter (to be calculated)
3. DTer Taunts as you send in a Powerful Attacker (25.5% of pulling off)
4. DTer Taunts as you send in a Taunter (to be calculated)

Half of those situaltions are advantageous to DT, and Half advantageous to stopping DT. So it is really a 50/50 chance, unless you are willing to do more calcs based on that, as the one you did was Taunts as you send in a Powerful Attacker.

Pokemon is a game about prediction, and the opponent is going to try and outpredict you into thinking they are going to DT or Taunt, so there isn't really any bias to DTing or Taunting.

You seem to have misunderstood my example and have not thought about how it was obtained. I said there was 1 DT up, it was faster, and the opponent was slower. This would mean that this pokemon (let's call it A) used DT as pokemon B (call it B) switches in (immediate switch-in). Pokemon B poses a 2HKO threat. Then A Taunts B, and B's Roar/Toxic/etc fails. Then my example would go ahead.

If A uses DT instead of Taunt, it's exactly the same as my example if B uses the attack that can 2HKO. Either that, or B uses Roar/Toxic/etc which ruins the DT strategy.

The only case in which your example can apply is if I'm foolish enough to leave my pokemon in on the DT user that has an easy time walling my pokemon. And even if I was foolish enough, I can then send in a faster pokemon (e.g. Salamence, Heatran), after realising my mistake and that the opponent has Taunt, and my faster pokemon can pose at least a 2HKO threat. This occurs as the DT user uses his 2nd DT.


This could not be more true. Taunt hits before Whirlwind/Roar, so Skarmory, Vaporeon, Suicune, and Hippowdon won't be able to Phaze it out, and Cresselia won't do much either.

Sure, Rotom-A can 1-2HKO it, but then you can just send something in to deal with it.

Since it doesn't invest in speed, unlike Medicham, and has the ability to boost its attack x2 instead of x1.5, it can invest in HP and defenses. It can survive unSTAB Thunderbolts from Gengar, and Salamence's Draco Meteor shouldn't OHKO. Either way, this wouldn't be used in OU anyways.

Even if Skarmory, Vaporeon, Suicunce and Hippowdon are Taunted, Bibarel's lack of Atk, even with Super Fang, will mean he will never break these walls. The only way he can gain enough Atk for the job is with Curse, but then there's the obvious Taunt/pHaze/Toxic problem. You're even confirming that this set doesn't work by saying if Rotom-A can 2HKO it (it'll OHKO), you just send in something else... it's far too easy to wall.

Someone should mention the EVs. If Bibarel has no Speed EVs, he won't be able to Taunt many pokemon. With Speed EVs, he will have even less durability, and the list of the countless OHKO threats just increases. On that point, I don't give a dam if it has DT, Super Fang and Waterfall; I can still send in my faster Tyranitar and OHKO with Crunch. Worse case scenario is that I miss a +1 DT Bibarel, which only has a 25% chance of occuring.


However, if that's not actually going to be relevant to OU conditions, which is the implication I'm getting, then I don't see the reason to focus solely on OU. Just test it in all tiers at once and if it turns out to generally be fine, but it makes Bibarel too much for UU, then move it up to BL (or Uber, if it ends up being too much for standard as well) and leave DT alone beyond that.

Really, don't see any practical reason to limit the test soley to UU; primarily, the effects of a move or Pokemon on standard are what we're concerned with. Testing it on all tiers at once we can also gage the effects on both UU and OU at the same time. Focusing on UU first only seems to be a slower, less efficient process, and it doesn't really offer any advantages. Either it won't be broken in standard, it will only make it necessary to move a Pokemon or two up to BL/Ubers, or it won't really have too much of an effect at all. Regardless though, I don't see how limiting the test to UU in the first stage will give us a better answer as to which, as compared to testing it in all tiers.

If DT is proven to be viable, and Bibarel somehow manages to become too strong for UU with DT, then Bibarel will move up to BL. DT will not become broken then. It's like banning Garchomp instead of banning Swords Dance or Yache Berry.
 
If DT is proven to be viable, and Bibarel somehow manages to become too strong for UU with DT, then Bibarel will move up to BL. DT will not become broken then. It's like banning Garchomp instead of banning Swords Dance or Yache Berry.
Yeah, I know; that's what I'm predicting to be the case. My point at mentioning that was, while being extremely unlikely, it's possible that a Pokemon that's currently UU will end up being broken even in standard with DT, and thus be moved straight from UU to Ubers, which is another reason why a UU-only test of Double Team isn't optimal (which is what the person I was responding to was talking about; the idea of testing DT only in UU as the first part of the test). It's a very unlikely scenario, but a possible problem with the idea of only testing DT, and thus me pointing it out as a flaw in the idea. As you said though, such a scenario isn't likely, and if one or two Pokemon end up being broken with it in UU/OU, then they will be moved up to BL/Ubers.
 
You seem to have misunderstood my example and have not thought about how it was obtained. I said there was 1 DT up, it was faster, and the opponent was slower. This would mean that this pokemon (let's call it A) used DT as pokemon B (call it B) switches in (immediate switch-in). Pokemon B poses a 2HKO threat. Then A Taunts B, and B's Roar/Toxic/etc fails. Then my example would go ahead.

If A uses DT instead of Taunt, it's exactly the same as my example if B uses the attack that can 2HKO. Either that, or B uses Roar/Toxic/etc which ruins the DT strategy.

The only case in which your example can apply is if I'm foolish enough to leave my pokemon in on the DT user that has an easy time walling my pokemon. And even if I was foolish enough, I can then send in a faster pokemon (e.g. Salamence, Heatran), after realising my mistake and that the opponent has Taunt, and my faster pokemon can pose at least a 2HKO threat. This occurs as the DT user uses his 2nd DT.

Thanks for clearing that up.

One question: How do you know you will have something to 2HKO that Double Teamer? There is a good possibibity that the user will scout around a bit before revealing it, and possibly have something that utterly destroys it's counters, like people have been resorting to with Scizor. You can't possibly check every double teamer in the game.

@ The Artic One: That was my way of saying "Machamp and Hard SE Hitters are not always going to work." Many walls will survive SE Hits, I was just using an example. OK, how about Ditch Pain Split and use Confuse Ray for half the chance to hit? Not many attackers are going to like that, you will get exta DTs or residual damage.
 
Yeah, I know; that's what I'm predicting to be the case. My point at mentioning that was, while being extremely unlikely, it's possible that a Pokemon that's currently UU will end up being broken even in standard with DT, and thus be moved straight from UU to Ubers, which is another reason why a UU-only test of Double Team isn't optimal (which is what the person I was responding to was talking about; the idea of testing DT only in UU as the first part of the test). It's a very unlikely scenario, but a possible problem with the idea of only testing DT, and thus me pointing it out as a flaw in the idea. As you said though, such a scenario isn't likely, and if one or two Pokemon end up being broken with it in UU/OU, then they will be moved up to BL/Ubers.

DT will only be considered broken if a large number of pokemon become Uber when using the move, even if the pokemon was previously UU. Otherwise, the move itself wouldn't be broken, but rather the user. We give out less bans than more bans; that's why we ban Garchomp instead of Yache Berry, for Yache Berry is only broken when used on Garchomp or perhaps Rayquaza. But it's not broken if Salamence, Dragonite or Gliscor use it. So we do one ban on Garchomp instead of banning it on every pokemon, including three different pokemon that could use it.

It's like saying that if Registeel gains Recover, it ends up broken, and then we conclude that Recover is a broken move. But Starmie, Alakazam, Porygon-Z and every other use of Recover or a move that functions exactly the same as Recover (let's ignore Softboiled, Slack Off, Milk Drink, Roost, Moonlight, Synthesis, and Moonlight) are not broken with that move. It's just Registeel. What seems more broken, and what requires less bans - banning Registeel, or banning Recover on every pokemon.


From looking at the Bibarel set, it won't break UU - too many pokemon can wall it (Shaymin, Registeel, Spiritomb, even Roserade with Rest/Synthesis if he lacks Return). The only way Bibarel might break UU is with Baton Pass support. But then again, +3 (6) Atk and Speed Bibarel is also a complete menance, and he's still UU.


[EDIT]

In response to your post Relictivity, chances are that I will have something to 2HKO the Double Teamer. #2 pokemon in usage, Salamence, can OHKO or 2HKO every pokemon in OU with LO Outrage except Steels and Cresselia. Outrage, of course, has it's obvious problems, but Salamence could still 2HKO many ideal DT users with Draco Meteor and Fire Blast. Wallbreakers make an excellent DT counter. Other great pokemon for OHKOing or 2HKOing most DT users include Tyranitar, Infernape and Heatran. Or if I lack a pokemon capable of 2HKOing most of the metagame, I can rely on weaknesses to take down a Pokemon. Every good team will have Ice Beam for Gliscor. The only pokemon that might be problematic is Cresselia should I not have Tyranitar or Scizor, but she just finds it too hard to threaten a team after +6 evasion.

The only teams that might not 2HKO a DT user are Stall teams. However, if DT is allowed, Stall teams will make small adjustments that will allow them to deal with DT. Perish Song is an excellent example of a DT counter. It's most likely to be used on Celebi, who outspeeds or speedties with all the pokemon that would consider using DT. Those users who do speedtie with it (most likely other Celebi) cannot learn Taunt, and still won't be able to stop Perish Song. And perhaps most importantly, Perish Song is NOT affected by accuracy. Toxic Spikes on the field stops any DT user without an immunity to the move.

One more thing with Stall Teams - they will have an easy time PP draining DT users unless they have Baton Pass support. Name one bulky DT user that with +6 Evasion can sweep a stall team. If the team has Baton Pass, the team would defeat the team the same way it would defeat Baton Pass.
 
DT will only be considered broken if a large number of pokemon become Uber when using the move, even if the pokemon was previously UU. Otherwise, the move itself wouldn't be broken, but rather the user. We give out less bans than more bans; that's why we ban Garchomp instead of Yache Berry, for Yache Berry is only broken when used on Garchomp or perhaps Rayquaza. But it's not broken if Salamence, Dragonite or Gliscor use it. So we do one ban on Garchomp instead of banning it on every pokemon, including three different pokemon that could use it.

It's like saying that if Registeel gains Recover, it ends up broken, and then we conclude that Recover is a broken move. But Starmie, Alakazam, Porygon-Z and every other use of Recover or a move that functions exactly the same as Recover (let's ignore Softboiled, Slack Off, Milk Drink, Roost, Moonlight, Synthesis, and Moonlight) are not broken with that move. It's just Registeel. What seems more broken, and what requires less bans - banning Registeel, or banning Recover on every pokemon.


From looking at the Bibarel set, it won't break UU - too many pokemon can wall it (Shaymin, Registeel, Spiritomb, even Roserade with Rest/Synthesis if he lacks Return). The only way Bibarel might break UU is with Baton Pass support. But then again, +3 (6) Atk and Speed Bibarel is also a complete menance, and he's still UU.
Which again is exactly what I said, so I'm not sure why you responded to me with this.
 
So what is this set now?

Spiritomb with taunt, DT, and pain split leaving one slot for an attack?

Whatever attack he picks, he's not going to threaten much. Plus for taunt to even work, he'd have to predict and use it on the switch since he's so slow, eventually he'd mispredict/run out of taunts and get foresighted or hazed. I haven't really seen single set for anything that makes me think DT is not a complete waste of a moveslot.

exactly. The ultimate downfall to DT is the lack of move slots. For example lets use that spiritomb. It has the moveset DT/Taunt/Pain Split/ Shadowball. I think the most noobist person can up with the counter for that: which is blissy. Yeah he can taunt but that is all. This will in the end force a switch unless the guy using blissey is an idiot.
This is the same for every pokemon trying to use the DT/Taunt/recovery move combo.

And on Baton Pass. If the person is trying pull off a DtBp and do it successfully, shouldn't they be awarded with have a pokemon with 2+ evasion that can do a complete sweep? Because to use Bp, it does take skill.

Tbh with all of you, thinking about it, evasion doesn't really seem that scary anymore because they're ways to counter it. I was just mainly pulling for a test, but I'm starting to think it can be used in this competitive environment.
 
Rhyperior. Or anything with Encore to force switches on entry hazards.

Latias with Calm Mind can also do a good job with Dragon Pulse.

The Tran man himself boasts quite a bit of offensive power. He also boasts the very nice Magma Storm which will make trapping his counters very easy to kill and thus allowing him to DT if needed. Just watch out for other Tran.

Honestly though, Mence DOES have some problems with Double Team. Outrage has the negative effects we all see. Draco Meteor and Fire Blast both have non-perfect accuracy that is going to be even lower. Earthquake cannot hit Flyers or Levitators. Life Orb Damage will be adding up, and he cannot DD.

How about this, evasion test is coming, and let's see what everyone else does, what they choose to counter or abuse. Becuase I cannot see everything. And actually, you might have to test for them yourself, because I really don't like OU very much. UU is my thing. But I'll look for users there. And I think I am getting to close to therymon anyways... so yeah.

@Scuba Steeve - Nobody would be switching Blissey into Pain Split Tomb, because Pain Split Tomb will never die (due to getting full heals from Pain Split every time) and will be able to stall her out.
 
Yeah sure, but if it's a toxic stall blissey it might. PP stall out taunt and pain split or just one of them. I was kind of getting carried away. Togekiss would be one with paraflinch in effect.

Taunt can ruin rhyperiors fun because of it's horrible speed.

Latias might go back to ubers if evasion becomes unbanned. It could become unstoppable. Oh wait I forgot about steel types.

Yeah enemy heatran or anything with flash fire(hp ground houndoom) swampert, bulky water, and anything with thick fat.
 
Honestly though, Mence DOES have some problems with Double Team. Outrage has the negative effects we all see. Draco Meteor and Fire Blast both have non-perfect accuracy that is going to be even lower. Earthquake cannot hit Flyers or Levitators. Life Orb Damage will be adding up, and he cannot DD.
If life orb damage is accumulating on Mence doesn't that mean it's hitting the DTer with it's attacks (probably killing it)?
 
How potent will Ninjask be with Sub, Swords Dance, Double Team, Baton Pass? Ninjask may be holding Bright Powder to get a chance of securing one Substitute in, and then just set up.

Obviously Roar and / or Whirlwind may not be of concern with Mr. Mime, Cradily, and / or Octillery.

Ninjask will outspeed Taunt, and Baton Pass out.
Ninjask doesn't learn Taunt, that's why everyone is always so surprised that he manages to stay OU.

There's no reason to run DT on a bright powder ninjask because you only get 4 subs and using DT after bright powder gives you a free sub just gives them more chances to break your sub then priority you or just phase you.
 
I am surprised people don't utilize Yanmega for Baton Pass. Sure, he is slower than Ninjask and doesn't have access to Swords Dance, but Hypnosis disables Phazers if it hits, and Yanmega can afford to take a hit anyways. He has access to Double Team too. I would definitely use Yanmega > Ninjask for DT passing needs, IMO 100% better at the job.
 
I am surprised that people don't utilize Latias for Baton Pass. Sure, she is slower than Ninjask and doesn't have access to Swords Dance, but Thunder Wave disables Phazers when it hits, and Latias can afford to take a hit anyways. I would definitely use Latias > Ninjask for DT passing needs, IMO 100% better at the job.

(Yanmega doesn't learn Baton Pass, man.)
 
If Ninjask is trying to set up DT, he shouldn't be trying to set up SD. Something as frail as him, and so dependemt on Substitute won't find time for boosting Atk. Leave that to Gliscor or Scizor. You're better off utlising X-Scissor or Protect in place of SD.

It's very much exactly the same as a normal Ninjask - it Baton Passes a stat onto the next pokemon. Roar completely destroys it unless you Baton Pass to Mr Mime, Cradily or Octillery.

Octillery have extremely little use for Evasion - he rather have an Atk boost (with Ninjaksk' Speed Boost(s) of course). Cradily can enjoy a DT boost, but to be an effective wall, he needs SS support, which is something that Ninjask doesn't enjoy. Also, Ninjask is normally a lead (thanks to SR), meaning that if you BP to Cradily, you wouldn't have had time to activate SS yet. Mr. Mime can enjoy an Evasion boost so he can set up CM and Baton Pass to another pokemon. Using Mr. Mime basically means you are using a Baton Pass team, and you would defeat that team the same way you would defeat any Baton Pass team - take out one pokemon and it's an almost guaranteed win. As I said before, Ninjask is normally a lead. Mr. Mime has absolutely pathetic defence, and the two most common users of Roars, Swampert and Hippowdon, will 2HKO Mr. Mime with Earthquake. Mr. Mime also doesn't stop Whirlwind.

I agree with the arctic one - Leftovers > Brightpowder - Leftovers will give you a free Sub, whilst Brightpowder may not, especially in the presence of SS or Hail.
 
The only way that might work is if the opponent's pokemon is poisoned. Other then that it would just be annoying. No way to heal, no way to fight back, it will eventually go down.

Hmmm combining DT and BP is a problem. What if a rule like this was enforced: "A pokemon can not baton pass to pass any evasion stat ups." Just a suggestion.
 
I think it's silly to suggest these pointless movesets with 3 boosting/recovery moves and a single attack. There is no pokemon in the game that can have a single attack and wipe out an entire OU team with just DT backing it up. The coverage is just too poor.
 
I think it's silly to suggest these pointless movesets with 3 boosting/recovery moves and a single attack. There is no pokemon in the game that can have a single attack and wipe out an entire OU team with just DT backing it up. The coverage is just too poor.

Crocune and Crotomb do it. Not perfectly, but if they get setup, they'll be there a while.
 
yeah except they are using calm mind instead of double team.
You misunderstood. I was just proving that a pokemoon with only one attack move could be a threat. Interestingly, if there were not so many steels, I bet there would be CroLatias. Lol. Besides, with Double team, there isn't a "set" you can run, you choose the gimmick that works best for you, and has good synergy with your team.
 
Crocune and Crotomb do it. Not perfectly, but if they get setup, they'll be there a while.

Taunt and pHazers will take care of these easily. Admittely though, Hippowdon and Skarmory may not enjoy taking a Crocune Surf.

Perhaps an easier method, and one that many teams can do, is to take advantage of Crocune's and Crotomb's slow set up, and send in a pokemon will faster set up e.g. Salamence, Gyarados, SD Scizor. Alternatively, I could just send in a hard hitter that will deal damage more quickly than Crocune/Crotomb can heal off e.g. CB Tyranitar (who won't take enough damage from Suicune), Salamence.

As well, you can also bring their HPs down to low, and send in a pokemon that can finish them off as they spam their CMs, even if that pokemon wouldn't be able to swap into a boosted Surf/Dark Pulse e.g. Lucario (though he can take Spiritomb's Dark Pulse).
 
Taunt and pHazers will take care of these easily. Admittely though, Hippowdon and Skarmory may not enjoy taking a Crocune Surf.

Perhaps an easier method, and one that many teams can do, is to take advantage of Crocune's and Crotomb's slow set up, and send in a pokemon will faster set up e.g. Salamence, Gyarados, SD Scizor. Alternatively, I could just send in a hard hitter that will deal damage more quickly than Crocune/Crotomb can heal off e.g. CB Tyranitar (who won't take enough damage from Suicune), Salamence.

As well, you can also bring their HPs down to low, and send in a pokemon that can finish them off as they spam their CMs, even if that pokemon wouldn't be able to swap into a boosted Surf/Dark Pulse e.g. Lucario (though he can take Spiritomb's Dark Pulse).

I agree, this is the one problem Cro-sets have a hard time getting around. Still, imagine CroLatias in Steeless inviroment ;). That would be pwnage. The point is, Cro sets only work in the proper enviroment, so they require a certain amount of setup by other pokemon. So does Double Team.
 
Back
Top