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CAP 8 CAP 8 - Part 12a - Attacking Moves Discussion
- Thread starter cyberzero
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I agree that Explosion/Selfdestruct/Focus Punch/Superpower/Cross Chop should be unallowed, but I don't see why Volt Tackle should be unallowed as well. It's the only way for this CAP to use it's okay Attack stat to it's advantage. It's also the strongest physical STAB Electric-type attack this will be capable of getting. It won't do a ton of damage with base 60 Attack. Max Attack with a boosting nature + Life Orb can't even OHKO Blissey, only doing 77-90% damage. It may seem like a lot, but this CAP won't be running max Attack as far as I see. If this CAP wants to be a mixed attacker, Volt Tackle is the primary option because it's high base power makes up for this CAP's weak Attack stat, which allows it to pull off a decent mixed set.
Since Draco Meteor and Dragon Pulse are included how about Outrage?
(Edited the unneeded stuff out)
(Edited the unneeded stuff out)
Oh, I like the idea of aura sphere and lava plume. Earth power, superpower, and flamethrower/surf also sound good.
We are only discussing ATTACKING moves. Read the OP.
Aura Sphere should be disallowed, and that goes for all the other Fighting-type moves for reasons stated earlier. Tyranitar and Heatran (if it doesn't get Surf) are going to be the biggest counters towards this CAP, and we're not trying to make this CAP uncounterable.
I don't think that this pokemon should have attacking water moves available to it. I mean sure it is a dragon, but is also an electric type, what kind of electric type pokemon can use an attacking water move? (Other than laturn, rotom, event pikachu and chinchou.) Besides the two designs in the lead don't look like they can swim so surf is out of the question.
You disproved your first point and your second point is a flavor argument which doesn't hold true in CAP. Rhyperior doesn't look like it can Surf either.
@grizzly bearz: No, not really. It would allow it to beat most of it's supposed main counters, being Blissey, Snorlax, Heatran, and Tyranitar.
Still, no one has answered the biggest question in my mind. Obviously, if this Pokemon gets access to Water and Fire moves, then we we will have to restrict fighting moves, Explosion, etc. But I feel that this Pokemon should be limited to either Fire, and in turn maybe Grass, or Water and Ice moves so that it can use some Fighting type moves and still have a lot of counters. I don't think that Grass/Ice moves should be restricted, as Ice is useless anyways and won't make a difference while Grass only really counters Swampert since if this got water it would kill the other grounds. I'm leaning towards Water, as water gives it a chance against it's normal ground type counters and Fire only counters steels which aren't too threatening vs. CAP8 either way. I think Focus Punch should be at least Controversial if not Allowed, as coming off 60 Base Attack, it's useless vs. anything but TTar, Blissey and Snorlax and would have to be used in tandem with Substitute, meaning that CAP8 would have to limit it's other moves from what seems to be a diverse special movepool to only 2 moves, meaning that it would have decreased counterability but less sweeping potential. It would also make CAP8 more unpredictable and therefore better in the metagame. Focus Blast/Aura Sphere seem pretty unlikely as they would rape TTar/Snorlax and threaten Blissey as well, it's biggest counters. Hammer Arm/Cross Chop can also be considered as they don't pose the sheer threat that Focus Blast/Aura Sphere do and have drawbacks compared to the two special Fighting type attacks(lower Speed/unreliable accuracy).
What about Outrage/Volt Tackle? This Pokemon also needs some physical moves and if it doesn't get any of the fighting moves or Explosion then they are it's best bet for running a mixed set. I'm pretty sure this CAP will get Dragon Claw, but the 120 BP of Outrage/Volt Tackle and maybe SD/DD or even Bulk Up would make this CAP a viable mixed threat.
What about Outrage/Volt Tackle? This Pokemon also needs some physical moves and if it doesn't get any of the fighting moves or Explosion then they are it's best bet for running a mixed set. I'm pretty sure this CAP will get Dragon Claw, but the 120 BP of Outrage/Volt Tackle and maybe SD/DD or even Bulk Up would make this CAP a viable mixed threat.
Fire+Fighting+Dragon gets perfect coverage, Electric only sweetens the deal. For that reason Fighting moves should be out of the question.
One, you don't need sub to nail something on the switch in with Focus Punch. Two, we don't need unpredictable EVERY. SINGLE. CAP. Scizor isn't unpredictable, yet it still rips holes through teams. Third, if TTar, Snorlax, and Blissey are supposed to be its biggest counters, and you can beat them, what exactly will you use to get rid of this Pokemon. Leave the counters alone.
I'm not sure this should be a viable mixed threat at all. Not every cap needs the ability to do everything. I say stick to what the stats show its good at; i.e. Physical tanking and Special Attacking. Outrage would be fine as a flavor move I guess, but you'd need serious investment in attack to DO anything with it; ditto for Volt Tackle. I don't think that would be best for this CAP to water down its Physical tanking/Special Attacking prowess just to try to be good at everything.
A) What's the point of a counters thread if you immediately want to find ways to beat them?
B) Says who?
Re: Focus Punch
SubPunch CAP can defeat non-Ice Beam Blissey one-on-one. It takes 5 WishBliss Thunderbolts, 3 Flamethrowers, 2 Seismic Tosses, or 1 Ice Beam to break CAP 8's 101 subs (188 HP/0 SpD) while CAP needs 140 Atk EVs (neutral nature) to guarantee the 2HKO with Focus Punch, factoring in Leftovers (or the 16HKO if it has Softboiled and starts spamming), so Blissey needs to have Ice Beam to counter a SubPunch set.
It'll take all 252 Atk EVs (maybe fewer, but still a lot w/neutral nature) to do in Curselax, but only if it switches in. CAP does 47-56% to Curselax w/out any Curses, 31-37% after 1 Curse, and 24-28% after 2 Curses, meaning Snorlax can survive one FP to Curse, but it will have to Rest, where it can survive three more Focus Punches, but won't survive a fourth to Curse again. If it has a Curse in as CAP switches in, Lax wins, regardless of whether it keeps Cursing or starts spamming attacks.
Double-check my math, here, but I think it's right.
Given this, I think Focus Punch should be voted on, especially considering the Blissey example, as she and Snorlax seem like pretty reliable counters if CAP doesn't have it and I think a lot of people feel it should stay that way.
EDIT: CAP needs ~140 Atk EVs to guarantee a 2HKO on Blissey, factoring in Leftovers. Thanks, Stellar.
SubPunch CAP can defeat non-Ice Beam Blissey one-on-one. It takes 5 WishBliss Thunderbolts, 3 Flamethrowers, 2 Seismic Tosses, or 1 Ice Beam to break CAP 8's 101 subs (188 HP/0 SpD) while CAP needs 140 Atk EVs (neutral nature) to guarantee the 2HKO with Focus Punch, factoring in Leftovers (or the 16HKO if it has Softboiled and starts spamming), so Blissey needs to have Ice Beam to counter a SubPunch set.
It'll take all 252 Atk EVs (maybe fewer, but still a lot w/neutral nature) to do in Curselax, but only if it switches in. CAP does 47-56% to Curselax w/out any Curses, 31-37% after 1 Curse, and 24-28% after 2 Curses, meaning Snorlax can survive one FP to Curse, but it will have to Rest, where it can survive three more Focus Punches, but won't survive a fourth to Curse again. If it has a Curse in as CAP switches in, Lax wins, regardless of whether it keeps Cursing or starts spamming attacks.
Double-check my math, here, but I think it's right.
Given this, I think Focus Punch should be voted on, especially considering the Blissey example, as she and Snorlax seem like pretty reliable counters if CAP doesn't have it and I think a lot of people feel it should stay that way.
EDIT: CAP needs ~140 Atk EVs to guarantee a 2HKO on Blissey, factoring in Leftovers. Thanks, Stellar.
You actually need 140 EVs with a neutral nature to 2HKO Blissey (0 HP / 252 Def Calm) with Leftovers (which is always has).
You actually can't get a 100% 2HKO on Snorlax with Focus Punch when counting Leftovers (using the EV Spread listed on-site). It has a 98% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers if the CAP is using a positive nature with max Attack.
I'm not sure if you were assuming Stealth Rock or not, so you might want to mention that in future calcs.
Well, so far I'm liking Charge beam and Aura sphere. I don't think we should have fire and water moves, I think we should choose one and stick with it,(in regards to surf/hydro pump and Flamethrower/Fire blast)although Water pulse might be fine regardless. I don't really like the idea of giving this thing a large physical movepool or dragon dance. It would really make it alot harder for it's counters. I'd say no to earthquake/earth power and no to crosschop/close combat. Focus punch *might* be vaible. I'd also say maybe on Focus blast, not really sure yet.
I didn't say it was a 2HKO. I was saying it was a 6HKO while Snorlax tries to set up Curses, but I'm thinking now that I was wrong. Lax Curses before FP hits, so it can get 2 in, maybe 3 before it has to Rest, and after that it's only taking 28% max, right? So FP doesn't really stop it. Or maybe my math's just messed up.
I think Focus Punch should still be in, but no other fighting moves. Focus Punch necessitates Substitute to be effective which takes up another moves slot tying up it's options. If it wants recovery outside of leftovers it will need another move slot. Switch on the sub, break the sub, attempt to KO before it sets up another sub.
(CAP8 Max Atk Max HP No Defense)
Scarf Heatran
Focus Punch Does: 240 Atk vs 248 Def & 324 HP (150 Base Power): 208 - 246 (64.20% - 75.93%)
Earth Power 394 Atk vs 176 Def & 420 HP (90 Base Power): 290 - 342 (69.05% - 81.43%)
Counting in the Substitute that makes a perfectly viable Counter for a Subpunch set.
(CAP8 Max Atk Max HP No Defense)
Scarf Heatran
Focus Punch Does: 240 Atk vs 248 Def & 324 HP (150 Base Power): 208 - 246 (64.20% - 75.93%)
Earth Power 394 Atk vs 176 Def & 420 HP (90 Base Power): 290 - 342 (69.05% - 81.43%)
Counting in the Substitute that makes a perfectly viable Counter for a Subpunch set.
Ok, I think Focus Punch should be controversial, because it requires investment to be useful, but is the ultimate anti-counter for CAP8.
I'm quite liking the idea of fire+water. For a pure special attacker, it means that little can afford a safe switch in and it gets perfect coverage with these moves, so Grass/Ice is uneeded. Restricting to one or the other doesn't make sense, all of the other major dragons have fire and water moves like Mence, DNite, and Rayquaza.
I'm quite liking the idea of fire+water. For a pure special attacker, it means that little can afford a safe switch in and it gets perfect coverage with these moves, so Grass/Ice is uneeded. Restricting to one or the other doesn't make sense, all of the other major dragons have fire and water moves like Mence, DNite, and Rayquaza.
Unless it's a required move listing what "all the other dragons have" doesn't add anything competitively. Competitively it does make sense to restrict one of the other, and I vote out water so Heatran can still be a viable counter.
Flygon and Kingdra do not have both, and I would not consider them "minor dragons", especially compared to Dragonite. But regardless, this kind of argument is pointless.
I'd like to throw in Spacial Rend. I don't honestly think a tank Pokémon would make good use of it (and a Specs version would use Draco Meteor instead), but I think this move should still be Allowed since it clearly do not break CAP8
doesnt flygon have fireblast?
Imo, if cyzir's sprite wins, fire blast and surf would not work to well.
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