np: Stage 3 - Family Reunion ("This Is Why I Created" Remix)

[mtr]

Most of the suspects are specially based, which by the way may say quite a bit about the community, throwing up a red flag for uber when forced to use Blissey. It can come in on the Latis and Scarf Skymin rather easily and slow down the offense a bit.

Who says that you need a Blissey? Just get a random revenger with a physical Dragon or Ice move or Ice Shard and go to town. Latios' physical defenses are quite mediocre anyways.

Of course, Latios can also use a scarf, but then we use Scarfgar, or just a Choice Banded Ice Shard. Unlike Latias, Latios doesn't like to invest anything in its defense or HP, which makes revenging a fair bit easier.

With all the Sand Stream going around (and even more will because of Garchomp), Metagross and Tyranitar get the boost they need to beat up on the flying bird thing. However...

Specs: this could be some trouble. The most powerful Draco Meteor in the game is a frightening thought: I guess it's off to the death fodder for this one. But it's nothing we haven't seen before. Using death fodder for information is pretty common. Plus, Metagross and Ttar can easily trap and kill something stuck in a Draco Meteor that just hit a weakened Swampert rather than your prized Garchomp.

Manaphy: I faced a rain team or two, but with all the sand going around as usual and the general lack of popularity regarding rain teams in OU, I don't think it's exactly Uber material. It certainly is a terror in the rain, but then again so is Kingdra. Outside the rain, it's pretty much a Togekiss with different typing and a suckier ability (OUTSIDE THE RAIN) as far as offense is concerned, just as Kingdra is pretty much an inferior Salamence on the same characteristic.

Shaymin-S: Needs HP Fire to beat all the Scizors, but then Heatran walls it. This thing would definitely have been Uber in DP, but I sorta think it might be OU in the Platinum metagame.

Deoxys-S: People have to be insane to vote this thing into OU. I don't need to elaborate, as many others have. It's the same logic that put Froslass into BL, but DXS is far more versatile.

Just my general impressions.

 

[wildfire393]

I'm curious as to what exactly this test is supposed to be proving. Yes, Garchomp is moderately less broken when the metagame involves 3 extra extremely good Pokemon who outspeed him (Latios, Skymin, Deoxys-s). But when at least two of those are almost definitely slated for Uberdom, can we really claim that Garchomp is not worthy of the same fate? Unless there is some sort of winnowing process, wherein Pokemon are systematically eliminated based on performance (with Latios and Deoxys-s likely being first due to their current dominance of this meta) until an acceptable subset remains, this doesn't seem like it will tell us anything about the "Standard" metagame.

 

[Flash_gearz]

Apparently from what I've seen, Scizor amazing with all that's happening. Single handedly it can stop all of the suspects except manaphy, and thats not getting used too much. None of them want to take a Bullet punch or get trapped with pursuit when they're locked into a choice attack.

Garchomp doesn't seem to be doing much, I feel like it's because it doesn't have a outrageous speed without a scarf, and even then Scizor kills it, and it doesn't hit quite as hard as it use to. I haven't actually used it too much.

Also so angry at the fact that my idea for choice scarf Deoxys was done already =(

 

[Jumpman16]

I'm curious as to what exactly this test is supposed to be proving.

there is some sort of winnowing process, wherein Pokemon are systematically eliminated based on performance (with Latios and Deoxys-s likely being first due to their current dominance of this meta) until an acceptable subset remains

at least i dont have to post the words myself this time

 

[MetaNite]

Here's the layout:

Latios: Pick pain as always. It's almost completely overshadowing Latias. It is also able to revenge kill Yache Chomp which is a reason why it isn't seen so much. Scarf varients are becoming popular and can 2HKO most of the metagame. I'd say Uber.

Blissey: Haven't seen many, or any. People are scared straight into hyper offense. This is probably why Latios is able to shine as brightly as it is.

Scizor: One on every other team. It is incredibly useful in KOing all these Dragons and Bullet Punch helps with Skymin and Deoxy-S as well. The anti-metagame Pokemon at this time.

Bronzong: LR hit the nail on the end. Bronzong is another anti-metagame Pokemon. Great utility. It can wall Garchomp, Skymin, Deoxy-S, Latios, etc. Pain in the ass to take down when you're relying on those Pokemon to sweep.

Manaphy: Uncommon, but with Blissey being as rare as it is, Tail Glow Manaphy is a great asset for Scizor, Metagross, and Bronzong. Skymin is why it isn't seen very often, as Seed Flare spells its doom. People just tested it for a month, so I'm sure many want to move on to others as well. As far as tier placement, I think it depends on the other suspects. For instance, Garchomp, Skymin, and Latios all make great revenge killer with super powered attacks. If they stay in OU, I'd say Manaphy is safe too. If not, it goes back to the recent suspect test.

Skymin: Hax is as annoying as ever, but its being walled more and more now. It is also not as bulky as many of the other suspects which leaves it very susceptable to Bullet Punch and most certainly Ice Shard. I'm leaning towards OU at this point.

Garchomp: Latios, Skymin, and Deoxy-S are really putting it in its place. Almost all the ones I've seen have been Choice Scarf, but those with SD are still quite deadly. A good revenge killer, but once it locks itself into Outrage or EQ it will be forced out or just die. I'm leaning again towards OU, but this depends a lot if the other suspects (mostly Latios) are voted OU as well.

Deoxy-S: Uber. Dual Screen leads are pains. Nearly every battle there's a Deoxy-S speed tie which is annoying as heck. The late game sweeper, though not quite as common is still surprisingly effective. It cleans up Skymin, Garchomp, Gyarados, all with ease. Definately an Uber.

 

[Jumpman16]

I actually find it funny how underwhelming Shaymin-S is, it should never have been uber.

that's pretty prophetic, do you want to predict the noontime weather on august 14 2009 in greensboro north carolina while you're at it

"pardon" my sarcasm but people really need to stop saying things like this. obviously skymin is less uber with five other suspects in the metagame, including one that's faster than it and gets up sr easier than skarmory got up two layers of spikes in advance, and two with 110 and 130 base SpD that resist its strongest move (and are immune to its third). and if wildfire is "right" and latios and deoxys-s are removed because they are actually uber (what a big stretch this would be), then what? is skymin still underwhelming?

guys, please, please stop making these know-it-all statements. in many instances i've posted my thoughts about stage 3 and the suspect test process, and in others i've stated that things we do know now about suspects were completely unknown by the same know-it-alls months before (it took months of experience for garchomp and dxs to become "uber"). please save your energy for playing on the suspect ladder and reporting how things are actually playing out

 

[Pyromanic]

Does "a suspect cannot check another suspect" still apply?

 

[wildfire393]

at least i dont have to post the words myself this time

Reviewing every post of yours in this thread you never posted anything close to those words.

So after the 7-8 weeks, this process will continue, then, until we've come to a point where nothing else is voted "uber"? Or will there be periodic votes in the interim? Seems to me two months of this uber-fast meta might get stale pretty quick, but who knows.

@Pyromaniac: Apparently, the subset of suspects will be whittled until there is a set that is considered fair for the metagame.

 

[thechocolatebunny]

What EV spread are you guys running for sweeper DXS? Right now I'm using the old 160 atk 252 spA 96 spe naive but it seems that people are running more speed on theirs.

 

[Tanner]

Most Dexoys-S that I've fought have maxed speed to have the best shot of winning those consistently present speed ties though honestly, I haven't fought many sweeper Dexoys yet. It's almost purely been leads.

 

[tab]

I'm running max speed, and judging from the amount of speed ties I've lost, so is everyone else.

 

[MegaKick]

100 Atk / 172 SpA / 236 Spe Hasty
Being the noob I am, I ripped it from the analasys, but it still works great

 

[wildfire393]

100 Atk / 172 SpA / 236 Spe Hasty
Being the noob I am, I ripped it from the analasys, but it still works great

Honestly there are only a few options for Deo-s. Max speed gives you the speed tie with other Deo-s. Min speed lets you outspeed everything besides Scarfers, other Deo-s, and Ninjask (/Yanmega after a boost). Minimum speed is 396, which is faster than +nature base 130s by 2 points.

Alternately you could go for beating certain other scarf/+1 benchmarks:

88 beats ScarfTran
138 beats +1 Jolly Gyara
252 beats Scarfed/+1 base 90s and below (Lucario, Rotom-A)
+208 beats Scarfed/+1 base 100s (Mence, Flygon)
+236 beats ScarfChomp (obviously what you were going for)

But honestly at that point you're better off running maxed speed so you can tie other Deo-s. Anything between Pos Natured 236 and Maxed Speed is worthless, as you will not outspeed anything extra.

 

[RegalStar]

Should Heart Swap be banned on the ladder? It keeps the boosts it grabs even after switching, and is even more effective than it's supposed to do (deter things from just setting up on my Manaphy) due to its permanent nature.

 

[iKitsune]

I know im going to get verbally abused for saying this but. I think Deoxys e should just be removed from the ladder already- its clearly Uber. Really it just detracts from the viablilty of leads available. Please can we just Uber it at this early stage.

 

[AJC]

Should Heart Swap be banned on the ladder? It keeps the boosts it grabs even after switching, and is even more effective than it's supposed to do (deter things from just setting up on my Manaphy) due to its permanent nature.

if you were reading the the message while joining the smogon shoddy server you'll note that it says that heartswap is bugged and souldn't be used.

 

[tab]

I actually agree that Deoxys needs to go, just not quite yet. Unless I've misunderstood, there's going to be a few votes throughout the testing period to get rid of the obviously uber suspects, and I think a week or two into the test should be enough time to establish Deoxys' status beyond any real doubt.

 

[RegalStar]

if you were reading the the message while joining the smogon shoddy server you'll note that it says that heartswap is bugged and souldn't be used.

It wasn't exactly in a visible spot, but I see. Sorry.

 

[Azule]

Deoxys is strong, sweeper versions can outspeed Scarfchomp, and KO with Ice Beam, it can outspeed Skymin if its not scarfed and kill with ice beam, and it'll stop most speed set-up's if it can just revenge anything.

As a lead, its amazing, if sashed it always can get two screens up, and its mostly faster than everything anyway. It can normally get at least 2 layers of spikes up, always get SR up, its the best lead available, and its too good.

If it goes to uber though, a lot more set-up sweeping Pokemon will emerge, and that could either hinder or assist Chomp, which has proven to win me a lot of matches with JollyScarf Outrage.

 

[reachzero]

I know im going to get verbally abused for saying this but. I think Deoxys e should just be removed from the ladder already- its clearly Uber. Really it just detracts from the viablilty of leads available. Please can we just Uber it at this early stage.

One of the problems with Deoxys-E is really a problem with the community; people aren't really thinking enough about how it works and how to stop it. Tons of people have complained about speed ties and how they "decide the match"; what if you simply invent an anti-lead that beats Deoxys-E? I've been using Jirachi with Body Slam/Iron Head/Fire Punch/Stealth Rock and Shuca Berry toward this end; if Deoxys Taunts you turn one, it risks being paralyzed and flinched to death. I'm certain that this isn't the only anti-lead that exists that could take down Deoxys; even anti-lead Weavile might work, though I haven't tried it (or needed to). Now, I don't disagree that Deoxys-E is pretty amazing (I love the sweeper set), but can we stop with all the complaining about lead centralization? There are other viable leads.

 

[StarmanXL]

Same here, except I've been using a Iron Head/U-Turn/Fire Punch/Thunderwave Jirachi, and it hasn't been too bad; I usually just U-Turn out first turn since Fire Punch won't OHKO and will fail to 2HKO if they only run 100 ATK EVs or something and go to Scizor first turn so I can threaten with either Pursuit or Bullet Punch while they can only set up one screen or just a layer of Stealth Rocks--obviously not foolproof as I've screwed it up a couple of times, but I can usually handle it.

What really bugs me, though, is that everyone is so obsessed about speed. I mean, seriously, CS Skymin? It does make it easier to take down some scarfers, but I really prefer to rely on defenses and checks than flimsy 50/50 speed ties.

 

[Head Smash]

I'll give my thoughts regarding the current suspects and how they are performing in the metagame.

Deoxys-S: Interesting Pokemon. There are actually a few non-standard lead and non-lead sets that I've been trying that have been working phenomenally. Deoxys-S is one of the primary reasons that the other suspects aren't shining as much as they would otherwise be. Skymin has 127 base Speed and huge Special Attack and (worst of all) Serene Grace, but it's kept in check at least in part thanks to Deoxys-S. I will vote this thing Uber most likely. As the metagame changes, though, it might fade from grace. Right now, it makes for a frightening revenge killer and offensive cleaner in general. And it's one of the best leads I've ever seen used--the only thing stopping it from being overpowering as a lead is the fact that everyone is using a lead specifically geared to counter Deoxys-S at the moment, but that will obviously fade as time goes on, and Deoxys-S will likely remain an extremely effective lead.

Latios: To be honest, I haven't had much trouble facing Latios. But I will say this: before using Latios, I wasn't anywhere close to the leaderboard, and after using Latios, I simply shot up through it, so I can attest to its excellence. As for whether or not Latios belongs in Uber . . . frankly, I'm not sure. It's better than Latias, but the difference isn't much (people are just using the wrong Latias sets, in general; as Bologo said, some differentiation needs to occur here). Latios does keep the other suspects in check, however. I'll probably vote for Uber for this one regardless (one Lati is sufficient in OU, I should think; the prospect of both being on the same team, I am not so sure about, though using both in conjunction brought me great success on the ladder).

Shaymin-S: I'll almost assuredly vote for this for Uber. Right now, threats such as Scarfchomp, Latios, and Deoxys-S are holding this back from shining, but Shaymin-S is an absolutely devastating Pokemon. Its base stats, coupled with its movepool and Serene Grace, make it easily one of the most fearsome Pokemon in the tier at the moment. I guess I'll wait until one or two of the other suspects leave the tier before passing judgment, but right now, I can't really see this thriving in OU (unless all of the other suspects also stay in OU, in which case it wouldn't be so frightening). The Submin and Scarfmin sets are probably the best, though the LO set is also very threatening.

Manaphy: I've always favored this thing descending down into OU, and the current suspect situation has only strenghthened and affirmed this opinion. Right now, the other suspects are preventing Rain from being a viable strategy, but if Deoxys-S and Shaymin-S were to go, I would predict a rise in Manaphy usage. The Tail Glow set is decent. Not much to say here. I guess we'll see what happens down the line!

Latias: I'm in favor of keeping this thing in OU. It did perfectly well in the previous OU metagame and is doing fairly well in this metagame. It hasn't been "broken" in either environment. I've used it to great success, though I'll admit Latios is better. As someone suggested to me, Scizor doesn't expect HP Fire, for some reason.

Garchomp: Hm. This is very difficult. It's definitely underwhelming in the current environment, but that's because the other suspects thoroughly trounce some of its sets. With Latios, Deoxys-S, and Shaymin-S gone, it will become a lot better, but, honestly, I think that the OU metagame will be able to handle it even then (Scizor can revenge it, as people noted, and the presence of Latias would still deter it, so I don't think it would be as broken as it was before). If Latios or either of the other two suspects is kept in, I definitely want to see Garchomp given a shot. I've used all of its sets and I like most of them, though I have to admit that Yache Berry is not effective in the current metagame. I've even used Bulky Restalk Garchomp on a stall team, and that worked pretty well (Brightpowder + Sandstream support makes it incredibly annoying).

It's a fast-paced and fun metagame. Right now, the following Pokemon have been doing the most for me on my teams:

Latios
Deoxys-S
Bronzong
Tyranitar

Happy suspecting!

 

[iKitsune]

One of the problems with Deoxys-E is really a problem with the community; people aren't really thinking enough about how it works and how to stop it. Tons of people have complained about speed ties and how they "decide the match"; what if you simply invent an anti-lead that beats Deoxys-E? I've been using Jirachi with Body Slam/Iron Head/Fire Punch/Stealth Rock and Shuca Berry toward this end; if Deoxys Taunts you turn one, it risks being paralyzed and flinched to death. I'm certain that this isn't the only anti-lead that exists that could take down Deoxys; even anti-lead Weavile might work, though I haven't tried it (or needed to). Now, I don't disagree that Deoxys-E is pretty amazing (I love the sweeper set), but can we stop with all the complaining about lead centralization? There are other viable leads.

I was using Lead TTAr against it and i realize if Crunch did not 2hko with a Reflect up, well i would massively struggle against it as would every other lead. That illustrates its supporting capabilites as a lead not much else can perform a similar feat. Tyranitar is easily the best lead against it if it gets cocky against you and spikes it just dies due to SS. Yes your lead you have mentioned is a good example and im sure there are otherways to beat it but the fact that it has severely reduced the amount of viable leads is distressing to me and is definitely not resulting in the goal of a balanced metagame, perhaps i am not judging it correctly.

I'm not really that concerned at the moment about it as i am sure it will be the first to be uber its just I don't see why we need this period to confirm this, when to me and others it is overwhelmingly uber.

I think the reason i think it is Uber is because it is the ultimate lead / dual screener / taunter / anti strategy /strategy pokemon and therefore easily qualifies for the support clause. In that respect i feel because you cant shut it down in a similar way to a sweeper i am more drawn to thinking it is Uber regardless of the metagame.

I really dont see why we need to deliberate on its tiering when it so easily qualifies for the support clause. Im sure a mid-game spiker version would actually be very effective simply because of taunt and also because the anti leads is the metagames only way of currently dealing with it, otherwise it will easily set up screens and then spike.

If it was merely just a sweeper i dont think i would nearly be so anti it and want it to be Uber . It takes the spirit out of the game and would lead to an unbalanced tier if it was OU - which im sure we can already tell that it is not so why wait?

 

[Jumpman16]

Reviewing every post of yours in this thread you never posted anything close to those words.

So after the 7-8 weeks, this process will continue, then, until we've come to a point where nothing else is voted "uber"? Or will there be periodic votes in the interim? Seems to me two months of this uber-fast meta might get stale pretty quick, but who knows.

@Pyromaniac: Apparently, the subset of suspects will be whittled until there is a set that is considered fair for the metagame.

go read the only sticky thread in policy review, ive posted about it there and in other threads for months

it is kind of common sense though, now that all the suspects are on the suspect ladder that's the only logical step

 

[RaikouLover]

Originally Posted flash gearz
Also so angry at the fact that my idea for choice scarf Deoxys was done already =(

This statement here just proves how much of a crock of shit the suspect metagame is right now... still a few days into it and its not slowing down yet. I mean no disrespect to the test because I am very grateful for it, I just can't wait for obviously uber things like Deoxys-E to go. When people are Scarfing the fastest pokemon in the game just to win speed ties and screw itself over, the game is getting completely out of hand. I've seen teams with 3-4 scarfers that are actually doing well, because of how absent and utterly raped stall has been in the current tier. Rain absolutely blows... the only time I tried it I ended up losing to a team of ScarfLatios / Scarfchomp / Scarf Shaymin-S which is absurd, but effective... *shaking my head*

Anyone have any idea on how to help me make a viable team thats not cluttered with bullshit?