In Game Tiers, Platinum Edition!!

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B
ralts:can help greatly vs maylene and gets a fair movepool,it also has magical leaf to help you out with crasher wake.

houndour:another decent fire type if your having troubles within the later ice gym.learns a fair bit of moves and does have decent stats on the special side.
C
bronzong:only available in the later games,is quite weak offensively
but is good if your having troubles with lucian or if you just want to go on a
more defensive play.

will see more tomorrow.
 
How is Bronzong a C? Bronzor can be caught on Route 211 (west), which is before the first gym, it has an amazing typing, an excellent movepool which includes early access to Hypnosis and team support with Safeguard, he has a Normal EXP growth curve, meaning he levels decently and chances are he'll be evolved by around the fourth gym, and his stats allow him to take hits from pretty much anything.
 
B
Drifloon - You can get Drifloon relatively early (after beating 2 badges), but only on a Friday. You receive it at a decent level 15, and it grows levels quite quickly too. Drifloon evolves at level 28, meaning you can have a strong, fully evolved pokemon as earlier as the third badge. Drifloon's typing makes it really useful ingame, and has a good movepool to go with it. You may want to use the TM Thunderbolt on him though, for some better coverage. Drifblim can also learn Fly, and doesn't mind a slot dedicated to this HM move, since Shadow Ball and Thunderbolt work well as primary attacking moves on their own. Stockpile can be useful too, whether to buff you own defences up or to Baton Pass to other team members later on in the game.

Drifblim is strong against Fantina, one of the harder gym leaders but also takes super effective damage from their moves, so as long as you are well levelled you should win here. 'Blim also works decently against Wake and his water types, if you have Thunderbolt.

Overall, Drifblim is a good choice for an ingame pokemon but more often than not Rotom would probably be the better option. More bulk, a more diverse support pool and the ability to Fly are the main selling points...other than it looking totally badass.
 
I'd say the only reason not to put all starters are in S is if you believe Starly is just that much better...which can be true, if you put the bar for S high enough.

I agree with Giratina somewhere extremely high - it's a low resource Pokemon. How high exactly depends on how you weigh availability versus resourcefulness.
 
petrie911 said:
Bidoof/Bibarel - B - Water Gun can help with Roark, and Surf and Waterfall are pretty good moves later on. Yawn can help midgame, as AI trainers don't tend to switch, and Super Fang is there late game. Not the best overall, but can be helpful. Also makes for a great HM slave, which must count for something.

Chansey - S - Softboiled can help support the party and let you carry fewer potions, and Sing can be helpful. Plus, if you really feel like using her, she's on the fast EXP track. But Chansey's main use is the Lucky Egg. Bag a Lucky Egg Chansey and suddenly your experience problems are over. And she comes relatively early with this wonderful boon. I seriously think the Lucky Egg alone makes Chansey S-rank.

Happiny - D - No Lucky Egg, and must be caught as a daily pokemon from the Trophy garden. While 50% of the time she comes with her evolution-inducing oval stone, the Chansey line really doesn't bring all that much to the table. The hassle of getting her along with her lackluster performance overall puts Happiny squarely in D tier.
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I disagree with Bibarel being B. The fact that he is arguably the best HM slave means he should be at least A, if not S because of utility. He is also found early in the game, meaning you don't have to look far for an HM slave.

Chansey being S is too high as well, it is a pain to try and find by herself, let alone with the Lucky Egg. 5% of finding Chansey, and 5% with lucky egg, that is a 0.25% chance of finding one. Not the most reliable thing in the world.
 
This thread strikes me as kind of moot, seeing as ingame isn't exactly hard and you can just blast through with your starter, but whatever.

I suggest Scyther as a solid A though. Easily obtainable before Veilstone, and my barely-trained wild one (hell, it was even bold and with Swarm) completely obliterated Maylene with wing attack.
 
Honestly, Magikarp should be boardering on an S. I've just used the Good Rod as soon as I get it, caught a Magikarp near level 20 and then started to tear shit up with Gyarados for the majority of the game. Once Gyarados is a good level 60+, you have what it takes to sweep the Pokémon League single handedly. Dragon Dance, Waterfall, Ice Fang, Bite. You can obviously switch out Bite for Earthquake as Bite is only ever as strong as Waterfall even when it's super effective or when Waterfall is not very effective. But you can also add a Splash Plate to make Waterfall even stronger anyway. I just used Bite as I don't like to use any of my TMs on the way through the game; though it's more for PP than anything else. (You have to use Aqua Tail for a while though).

Intimidate is very useful, and once you get Dragon Dance, it's easy to score a free one and sweep. Healing items can be purchased easily if need be, which gives you more freedom to Dragon Dance then heal off any damage. Gyarados is also rather easy to train up. It's not difficult to quickly bolster your EVs to max before the Pokémon League, and even though you'll be missing out on a lot when compared with the rest of your team when Gyarados is obtained, it still doesn't suffer.
 
Turtwig - A, a beginner Pokemon so it is obviously easy to obtain. However, it is slow and doesn't learn Earthquake until evolving much later. Once it finishes evolving, you can easily have a moveset of EQ / Wood Hammer / Curse / Stone Edge by the time you reach the Elite 4. Ice-type attacks are rather scarce in this game but Turtwig is generally useless during the 7th gym (Team Galactic focusing on Flying-types such as the Zubat line and Murkrow, while Candice's gym specializes in Ice).

Piplup - B, There are plenty of other good Water-types such as Gyarados and Buizel who will come along later. Piplup is useful for the first gym but has trouble with a lot of the other ones. Piplup doesn't learn many useful attacks until much later and even then, they are moves like Bubblebeam. With Magikarp and Buizel nearly effortless to catch, it is almost dumb to pick this over Turtwig or Chimchar.

Cranidos - C, it takes a lot of luck to actually obtain Cranidos' fossil, even if you can get it before the second gym. Cranidos takes an extremely long time to level up while young, but eventually it grows extremely fast. It can make a great glass cannon attacker ingame and can usually defeat the 1st and 3rd of the Elite 4, depending on what attacks you give it.

Shieldon - D, Shieldon takes the same amount of work to find as Cranidos but lacks Cranidos's power. Trying to level it up is a pain and it is weak to a lot of common types (with Machop and Geodude everywhere).

Machop - B, can get it very early (before the 1st gym) and a strong Fighting-type can really help against all of the Normal- and Rock-types that you are sure to find. Not too helpful late in the game and it requires trading to evolve, but it can help a great deal early game. Also makes a good HM Slave with Rock Smash and Strength.

Psyduck - C, easy to obtain but outclassed by other Water-types, Gyarados and Buizel.

Combee - D, Very difficult to obtain (slather Honey on a tree and wait a day), has almost no attacks, and only female versions evolve. Vespiquen is still rather weak compared to other Bug- and Flying-types.

Pachirisu - C, Luxray is much more powerful and easier to obtain. Luxray's Intimidate can also win a few matches by itself, so if you are looking for an Elc-type, Luxray is the way to go. I changed my score from D to C, because Pachi gets Pickup.

Buizel - A, is very easy to obtain, has great Attacking and Speed stats once evolved, can learn Waterfall, Crunch, Ice Fang, etc. Can be a great help against the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th of the E4.

Shellos - B, has a decent typing but doesn't match the power of Buizel or Gyarados.

Heracross - B, it is extremely rare to find on the Honey Trees and it takes an entire day to wait. It learns very good attacks though and has an extremely high Attack score.

Drifloon - C, if you don't start on the right day, you will have to wait up to an entire week to even see Drifloon. Gastly outclasses it in every category but tanking, but the game is focused on Speed and attacking, not playing out stall wars.

Gastly - A or S, 3 extremely useful immunities and a very high Special Attack and Speed, even if you don't get around to completely evolving it. Evolution of Haunter to Gengar can happen anytime by simply trading. Gastly can know attacks such as Sludge Bomb, Shadow Ball, and Thunderbolt.

Barboach - C, outclassed by other Water-types, does learn Earthquake though.

Chatot - D, comes far too late, has a bland typing, and is outclassed by the ever present Starly.

Gible - B, very good typing, although Ice weak. Gible's final evolution, Garchomp, is extremely powerful and fast and if used correctly, could sweep most of the Elite 4. A final moveset of Stone Edge / Earthquake / Fire Blast / Dragon Claw is very easy to obtain. Biggest drawback is waiting for Exp.

Munchlax - C, very hard to obtain and isn't as powerful as other Normal-types such as Starly.

Giratina - B, it comes awfully late but it is mandatory to fight and can help a lot with the Elite 4, especially with its high HP and attacks such as Ominous Wind which can boost all stats.
 
Rotom should be S - you get it extremely early (after the second gym), and if you give it a forme, you've got an extremely good ghost that can destroy most of the game for you, as well as probably the best electric in plat.

Otherwise, KD and RBG have everything more or less spot on imo.
 
Riolu - D: You get it really late, after the 6th gym. When you finally get it, it's an egg. You need to go on a superfluous side quest to get the egg. Once you hatch the egg, it's severely underlevelled at level 1. Then, you can only evolve it via happiness in the daytime. Too much work.

I agree that Rotom should be S, especially if you can get the formes.

Togepi - C: A lot of work, but if you put the time into it Togekiss can really help with flinchhax (if you can get serene grace!!), and various moves like flamethrower and aura sphere.
 
Just as a note, more likely than not, when someone plays the game, the will not be able to get a Secret Key, which is why I have it only has an A grade
 
S Tier:

Magikarp: Very easy to obtain and not difficult to evolve. Once you get Gyarados, you can basically run through anything. Intimidate is great for those double battles throughout the game, lets it setup DDs easier and it learns everything it needs through level up and Waterfall HM. My Gyara only had 3 attacks through most of the game and had no problems killing everything. Fourth moveslot can be used for something like Roar or Taunt to keep those Double Team or other annoying pokes from uh.. being annoying.

Chimchar: Good levelup moves and versatile. Fire Blast is readily available and with Grass Knot, he obtains nice coverage. He partners well with Gyarados and is the best Fire poke you're going to find. If you don't pick Chimchar, you're almost obligated to catch a Ponyta if you want a Fire poke.

A Tier:

Shinx: Easy to find and catch, good stats, Intimidate is good, only one weakness. Crunch is useful, but his movepool sucks. A good partner with Gyarados. Becomes less useful in the later parts since unlike most mons, he doesnt continually learn more powerful moves as he grows. Spark, lol.

Starly: One of the first poke you'll encounter. Gets great level up moves such as Brave Bird and Close Combat. Intimidate, again, is very useful. Can use Fly. Might not be as useful lategame, but STAB Brave Bird will easily sweep the first E4 trainer.

Bronzor: He is sturdy and can put problem pokes to sleep and can support your team well. Solid poke all around, though he doesn't hit particularly hard so I guess this is drawback in a speed run.

C Tier:

Heracross: Since this list is focusing on speed, Hera suffers big time. Five percent honey tree catch rate means you'll be wasting alot of time just trying to catch this thing. If you do get your hands on one, he is a solid poke (although learning Megahorn at lvl 55 is a letdown) from the get-go.
 
KD24 said:
Chatot - D, comes far too late
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Gonna have to disagree there. There's that in-game trade in Eterna, and its level is the same as the level of the Buizel you trade for it. You can also breed it since it's always a girl (I did this, took a little while to grind it to the rest of the team's levels) and in Platinum they were added to the route between the restaurant and Pastoria.

Also, Hyper Voice comes in handy in doubles and there's a few of those in the game.
 
Tropius should be either B or C. It's a pain to get in Platinum (and impossible in DP) but it has decent stats and movepool and learns five HMs, including the two that Bibarel doesn't get.

Buneary should be D. It's hard to catch and harder to evolve for speedrunners (starts at 0 happiness with pokemon like Dialga and Absol), and coupled with Lopunny's lower stats overall it just isn't good enough.

Sneasel should be A or S. It's fast and powerful, and easy to evolve with an easy-to-reach Razor Claw in Victory Road. If you can get the necessary Shards, Ice Punch is amazing on a Weavile.

Chansey being S is way to high. Its Defense is too low and it will faint too much for it to easily evolve. A or B work though.
 
S-tier:

Turtwig: Powerful, and bulky, early Razor Leaf, and a fairly early Curse. It evolves into Grotle relatively late, but after fighting Roark, you should be very close(if not evolved). It evolves into its final stage early at level 32, and upon this evolution gains the awesome STAB Earthquake. For a measely Heart Scale(dug up from underground) you can teach it the powerful Wood Hammer in Pastoria City. It also has the best natural movepool out of the starters, with Leech Seed, Curse, Earthquake, Crunch, Razor Leaf, and Leaf Storm. Torterra also holds up nicely against Bertha, and can be incredibly useful for Cynthia's Garchomp, Lucario, and Spiritomb.

Bidoof: That's right, the friendly beaver(turd thing). It evolves early, and becomes the best available HM slave in the game. It can attack decently as well, and has access to the amazing Super Fang. A must catch.

Magikarp: Although it evolves late at 20, you can often catch one pretty early and raise it in the daycare or use a good rod to catch a higher leveled one. Once it evolves, it becomes one of the best pokemon. It has an excellent movepool, and learns Dragon Dance naturally. Late game, it obliterates the elite 4.

Ghastly: This thing is very good. Great speed, and special attack, with a movepool to boot. Late game, you can easily sweep half the elite 4 provided you have the right moves.
 
Sneasel is obtained way too late in the game to get a S. At most I'd say give him an A, but being unable to evolve him until Victory Road puts him down to a B in my opinion.
 
Sneasel with S is insane, and I think A might be a bit too high as well. You get him so late and he is too fragile to be a real threat. He does a great job with a lot of the E4 though (only has real difficulty with the 2nd and 3rd users) but I would go and give Sneasel a high B.

Chansey is garbage. You have a 5% chance of seeing it IIRC and then a 5% chance of it holding a Lucky Egg. I am not going to waste hours on a Speed Run trying to catch something like that. Add in Chansey has no offensive prowess, is a pain to train, and healing items are a much better Softboiled...Chansey is a C at best.

Bronzor is shit, on a Speed run, im trying to attack first and hit hard, something he does not have. C, maybe even D, thats how useless Bronzor is.

Having Starly below Magikarp in very wrong. Starly is probably the best pure sweeper in the game (Return is available right away and then you have Brave Bird and Close Combat as well). Gyarados doesn't become truly effective until level 44. Starly is S, Gyarados is A.

Putting Turtwig in the S tier is so wrong -.-. Chimchar is the best starter period, and should be alone in that S tier with Starly and then maybe Bibarel. Turtwig is too slow to be S, definitely an A.

Bidoof is in the B tier, hes helpful very early for Rock Smash but first chance you get, ditch Bidoof and catch a Bibarel. Unless you actually waste time evolving Bidoof... So yeah, Bibarel should be on his own and in A or S, Bidoof is B (maybe C).
 
Could somebody explain to me why the best tier is called "S"?

Also, I'd definitely put Turtwig in that tier. He's your very first Pokémon, and gets Razor Leaf, Leech Seed, Bite, Crunch, Curse, Leaf Storm (!) and Earthuake (!!) by level up. So what if he's slow? He's strong and not exactly frail either.
 
1.) It is a speed run and near the beginning, Turtwig is going to be a bit of a pain to level because it doesnt get the really fun stats/moves until later. Chimchar is strong throughout the game and gets Flamethrower and Close Combat which is already better than the other starters. It is still my opinion that we need Chimchar as the lone starter in S as we don't want to confuse people- He is this guy you need to use.

2.) Torterra is slow. In a Speed Run, I would much prefer to be sweeping through things with Staraptor or Infernape and Gengar than I would with Torterra. Let's also not forget that Torterra has to rely on his Grass-type attacks which are pretty shitty compared to Infernape. Only until later does Torterra get all the right moves to sweep through teams.

Torterra remains an A for me because he is bulky and strong and has excellent type coverage later. But that is the key word, "later". Chimchar has the advantage throughout the entire game.
 
Bidoof is in the B tier, hes helpful very early for Rock Smash but first chance you get, ditch Bidoof and catch a Bibarel. Unless you actually waste time evolving Bidoof... So yeah, Bibarel should be on his own and in A or S, Bidoof is B (maybe C).
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So in the mind set you're going in, Chimchar is outclassed by Infernape and should be placed in either B or C. We're grouping the 'mons by first evolution, so if Bidoof is S; so is Bibarrel.

OK, anyways. I personally think Tentacruel is a pretty good choice for a Water-type/HM Slave if you want a special water and used Evee for something else. B or A for sure.

Tropius and Bibarrel, the two best HM slaves in the game when coupled together, should be A and S respectively. A for Tropius because it's relatively hard to catch and S for Bibbarel because it's the most common pokemon in the game.

Sneazel/Piloswine should be B or C. While they're caught very late, both them and they're evolutions are extremeley strong, and STAB priority is nice.

Rotom is S even if you don't have the Secret Key. I did a speed run in Plat with just him and an Infernape. They compliment each other greatly in terms of gyms/elite four.
 
Not only are you getting away from the fact that the first post never mentions a speed run, but also that if you are doing said speed run, Flamethrower isn't going to be a part of the quest. Fuego Ironworks is a side quest, which isn't necessary.

Yes, Infernape is likely the best starter for a speed run, however, many trainers prefer bulk over speed. It comes down to opinion, and I would have to say that they are both equal contenders for best in game starter.

On a grading scale, using these values:
0 for no advantage, both pokemon are equally useless or useful.
+1 for slight advantage, meaning both pokemon are useful, but one is slightly better
+2 for total advantage, meaning one pokemon doesn't hit SE, while the other does

Gyms:
1: Turtwig +1
2: Chimchar +2
3: Turtwig +2
4: 0
5: Turtwig +2
6: 0
7: Chimchar +2
8: Turtwig +2

The scores for the gyms are:
Turtwig-7, Chimchar-4, Turtwig advantage +3

Elite 4:
Aaron: Chimchar +1/2
Bertha: Turtwig +1/2
Flint: 0
Lucian: Turtwig +2
Cynthia: 0

The scores for the E4 are:
Turtwig-3/4, Chimchar: 1/2, Turtwig advantage +1

Accumulative scores:
Turtwig-10/11, Chimchar: 5/6, Turtwig advantage +5

This is taking into account that Infernape can learn Grass Knot for Bertha, while Torterra can learn Stone Edge for Aaron. Infernape can beat Bronzong while Torterra can beat Drapion, so those two allow the opportunity for +2 on Aaron for Infernape, and +2 for Torterra on Lucian.

Sure, Infernape is faster, but Torterra has bulk, and does far better against the gym leaders and Elite Four pokemon.
 
So in the mind set you're going in, Chimchar is outclassed by Infernape and should be placed in either B or C. We're grouping the 'mons by first evolution, so if Bidoof is S; so is Bibarrel.
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In this case yes, I would actually group Bibarel and Bidoof differently because thats how they are. I didn't suggest that for any other Pokemon, don't try and pretend you are in my head. Bidoof is caught around level 3 or 4 and you can use it as a quick Rock Smash HM Slave. If you are taking the time to evolve it, then you are wasting your time, since Bibarel comes literally an hour or less afterwards. I think grouping Bibarel and Bidoof differently makes sense because even though they share an evolutionary line, I don't think many at all would bother actually trying to evolve bidoof -.-.

<+kd24> tangerine, are ingame tiers made with the mindset of speedruns?
<&Mekkah> kd24 i like to think of them of efficient playing
<&Mekkah> efficiency basically means you go through the game quickly and reliably
<+Tangerine> what mekkah said

Torterra takes time, to use effectively. Yes it is effective but we are trying to go through the game quickly and reliably as Mekkah said. (I only pulled Flamethrower out of my ass, Fire Blast which can be bought at the store and Flare Blitz/Flame Wheel are both still viable options). Speedrun wasn't the right word because that is more of a contest to do things the fastest. But if I want to play quickly, I am not going to waste time with Turtwig when I have Infernape there for me. Turtwig is a nice second choice for a starter but there is no way he could be classed with Chimchar or Starly.

For the last point of "Torterra does better against Leaders/E4", maybe so, but Infernape and the rest of your team will probably go by just as fast if not faster. It is not and has never been a 1 Pokemon solo run. Last time I checked, we have 6 Pokemon to use in a team. I would rather just be switching in my teammates and using Infernape than trying to slowly level Torterra who just isn't as strong, just so I could have a more reliable gym killer.
 
Yanma for at least A, I'd say. One of the most fearsome special attackers with your choice of Tinted Lens or Speed Boost. Passable defenses once it evolves, so Roost is viable for keeping him healthy. Difficult to catch though...
 
In this case yes, I would actually group Bibarel and Bidoof differently because thats how they are. I didn't suggest that for any other Pokemon, don't try and pretend you are in my head. Bidoof is caught around level 3 or 4 and you can use it as a quick Rock Smash HM Slave. If you are taking the time to evolve it, then you are wasting your time, since Bibarel comes literally an hour or less afterwards. I think grouping Bibarel and Bidoof differently makes sense because even though they share an evolutionary line, I don't think many at all would bother actually trying to evolve bidoof -.-.
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I probably shouldn't have been like that, but wouldn't it be better and less hassle to just group them together? Their jobs are exactly the same (HM slave and in rare cases a tank), and their movepools are as well except for a few small differences. All the other mons and their evolutions are grouped tohether, so why not?

And I probably shouldn't have used speed run either, though as Mekkah stated it's about efficiency. And as Mekkah stated (and isn't he techinically the leader of this because he came up with the idea?) it's about going quickly and reliably. While Turtwig is better in some cases (taking a hit for example) the in-game tiers were meant too show how to go through the game quickly and reliably. Most of the pokemon in groups A and S are pretty fast and have a movepool big enough for the Gym Leaders and/or Elite Four in the game. I merely mentioned the combination of Rotom and Infernape because they cover practically all the Gym Leaders/Elite Four alone. I agree with you, KD24 and blashempy, to the fact Torterra is a viable starter. He fills the 'requirement' of being reliable but he is much slower than everybody else. And most of his good moves come pretty late compared to others.
 
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