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Community Create-A-Team #2: Aggron (OU)
- Thread starter Justinawe
- Start date
No?
Just because it's the core member doesn't mean it's the pokemon that will end the game. Only stupid players put all their eggs in one basket like that.
Are you suggesting two core members? Namely Aggron and the endgame sweeper.
We don't even need an endgame sweeper.
More than one pokemon core's are completely viable.
For example: A simple core of SD Infernape + CB Scizor. SD Infernape tends to lure out stuff that generally stop Scizor... such as Gyarados and OHKOing them or putting them into Scizors KO range. CB Scizor stops the Latias's that come in on Ape. Although this seems like a great core, you are shitted all over by HP Fire Latias which is where supporting the core comes in. Not the best example.... but yeah.
For example: A simple core of SD Infernape + CB Scizor. SD Infernape tends to lure out stuff that generally stop Scizor... such as Gyarados and OHKOing them or putting them into Scizors KO range. CB Scizor stops the Latias's that come in on Ape. Although this seems like a great core, you are shitted all over by HP Fire Latias which is where supporting the core comes in. Not the best example.... but yeah.
Aggron @ Liechi Berry
Jolly: 6 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
- Substitute
- Rock Polish
- Head Smash
- Earthquake
This set hits like a friggin nuke. Yes, I've playtested it. Come in on Choice Band Pursuit or what have you, Rock Polish, then Sub to Liechi. It tears apart teams - Earthquake + Head Smash is resisted by Flygon, Bronzong, and a few others, but in all honesty it doesn't matter; 150 BP STAB is just super powerful.
Jolly: 6 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
- Substitute
- Rock Polish
- Head Smash
- Earthquake
This set hits like a friggin nuke. Yes, I've playtested it. Come in on Choice Band Pursuit or what have you, Rock Polish, then Sub to Liechi. It tears apart teams - Earthquake + Head Smash is resisted by Flygon, Bronzong, and a few others, but in all honesty it doesn't matter; 150 BP STAB is just super powerful.
I think that Aggron's most viable role in OU is not being a sweeper; instead, it should be a CB wall breaker. Insanely powerful Head Smashes coupled with decent HP, superb defense, workable Special Defense in a Sand Storm, and a 2x Stealth Rock resist will make it one good hit and run pokemon that can clear the field for an end game sweep. My vote goes to CB.
For your question, Metagross has this thing called speed. This speed allows him to outrun more things with less investment on it; thus, allowing him to invest on his defenses so it can actually take a hit without dying.
considering that metagross isnt 4x weak to the two most common types in ou, is resistant to bullet punch, has 25 more base attack, has access to explosion, has a much better movepool which can be utilized with his usable spatk and the elemental punches, and his WAY better speed i have no idea how that isnt better than aggron. not to mention that subliechi aggron can only be used one time and is still walled by a ton of things, such as celebi, swampert, etc, as well as more easily revenged due to a water weakness and lower sdef (scarf rotom, scarf latias). AND his lower special defense and hp make it harder for him to set up in the first place. not to mention how he has to set up late game, where the opposition is trying to sweep too. you do realize a LOT of late game sweepers can easily ohko aggron right?
i voted choice band. that is easily his best set, tearing into everything mid game is too good to pass up. 75 more bp than cbtar's stone edge is cool, but in all honesty id rather use ttar for the fantastic movepool and stab dark > stab steel. though this is a way to be creative, so aggron is cool, but we need to keep it competitive. ergo, use cb aggron.
Scarf rotom can latias can't OHKO aggron even with surf/hydro pump while aggron in return OHKOs them with head smash and AFAIK metagross isn't ending celebi or swampert either.
Also they have basically the same movepools minus a priority move, and meteor mash is switched out for Head smash which is a much better offensive type.
Really there's no comparing the two of them since the only real similarity is that they're both part steel, considering they're walled and set up on different pokemon.
Bad Ass, I knew Metagross was resistant to Bullet Punch, I knew Metagross had a better movepool, and I knew Metagross had high Speed and Attack. However, lets look at what Aggron has over Metagross. Aggron is not completely walled by the Rotom forms like Metagross is, nor is it going to take several turns to KO Skarmory. Aggron also gets a nifty special defense boost from sandstorm. And if you are sitting at +2 Speed and +1 attack, Lucario (obvious example) is not going to want to switch into you, nor is Salamence or Empoleon.
Aggron may need a little more team support then something like, Agiligross or something, but considering how whole teams usually are built around opening up an Agiligross sweep in the first place.
EDIT: At the below poster, SubPetaya Empoleon does the exact same thing, sitting at 25% health. Of course it has Torrent, though.
Voting CB.
RP/Agility Metagross outclasses Aggron, so it would make no sense to base a team around an outclassed Pokemon and call it a serious competitive team.
Sub Leichi shows prospect but putting your sweeper at 25% to get the same effect as one at 100% makes no sense. Even after a Rock Polish it is outsped by some Pokemon, so it would make it even easier to kill off and ruin the sweep.
Sub Magnet Rise sounds nice, but I haven't tried it so I can't post with an experienced opinion. In theory it seems it would be lacking Speed and Power that the other sets provide.
I look forward to helping with the second CCAT.
RP/Agility Metagross outclasses Aggron, so it would make no sense to base a team around an outclassed Pokemon and call it a serious competitive team.
Sub Leichi shows prospect but putting your sweeper at 25% to get the same effect as one at 100% makes no sense. Even after a Rock Polish it is outsped by some Pokemon, so it would make it even easier to kill off and ruin the sweep.
Sub Magnet Rise sounds nice, but I haven't tried it so I can't post with an experienced opinion. In theory it seems it would be lacking Speed and Power that the other sets provide.
I look forward to helping with the second CCAT.
witness315 said:
Gonna assume the following sets:
Aggron @ Leichi Berry / Life Orb
Rock Head
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SpA)
252 Atk/ 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Substitute / Aqua Tail / Iron Head
- Rock Polish
- Head Smash
- Earthquake
Metagross @ Life Orb / Leftovers
Adamant nature (+Atk, - SpA)
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
- Agility
- Meteor Mash
- Earthquake
- Thunderpunch / Explosion
Metagross is Harder to Revenge Kill
Obviously Metagross has far better stats. +10 HP, +25 Atk, +40 SpD and +20 Spe is huge. But the Speed is the key difference here - an Adamant 4/252/252 Aggron has 350 Atk and 398 Spe after a Polish, whereas the same Metagross has 405 Atk and 478 Spe. Aggron loses out to any Scarfer who has 266 Spe or more. This means basically any Choice Scarf Pokemon - even Adamant Heracross. Metagross, on the other hand, forces a speed tie with Modest Scarf Gengar/Latias - that's fast. Pair this up with his Bullet Punch resistance, Mach Punch/V-Wave neutrality and fewer weaknesses and you'll find that Metagross is a lot harder to revenge kill.
Metagross is Easier to Set Up
I made this post the other day musing over Aggrons ability to switch into and take advantage of the top 20 Pokemon - http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2238457&postcount=101. Feel free to disagree with me on them as a few are very debatable but as you can see Aggron has a very tough time getting that free turn to Rock Polish. And as for the few things that Aggron can just about set up on you'll find that Metagross can set up on them too, often without losing anywhere near as much HP (Latias for example).
Clear Body
You mentioned it but I don't think you gave it anywhere near enough credit. 2 of the top 4 Pokemon have Intimidate and they can come in easily on any attack other than Head Smash. After a single Intimidate, Aggron can only OHKO a 4/0 Lucario 20% of the time with Life Orb Earthquake which is quite frankly a little embarrasing.
In SS, 4/0 Aggron has 282 HP and 234 SpD. 4/0 Metagross has 302 HP and 216 SpD. The difference here is tiny. To show how they fare against an average special attack...
359 Atk Magnezone Thunderbolt vs 4/0 Aggron in Sand = 55.67% - 65.96%
359 Atk Magnezone Thunderbolt vs 4/0 Metagross = 55.96% - 66.56%
Yay Aggron?
Head Smash is a fantastic move and all but when you factor in the huge differences in Atk and the slightly lower accuracy compared to Meteor Mash the difference starts to seem negligible.
Metagross Meteor Mash = 336 x 100 = 33600 x 0.85 = 28560
Aggron Head Smash = 281 x 150 = 42150 x 0.80 = 33720
To put that another way, against a hypothetical Pokemon with 404 HP and 236 Def, Metagross' Meteor Mash will deal about 42% on avg over a period of time. Aggron's Head Smash will deal 51%. So that's a slightly higher avg damage ouput on his STAB attack, but a much lower damage output on any other attack due to that huge 25 base Atk difference.
Rock is a fantastic attacking type, in fact it's the best attacking type according to X-Acts thread here - http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42012 (a few months old though!) but you have to ask yourself if the difference of a superior primary attack is worth trading in so many other huge advantages. Perhaps it will be if your team is painfully lacking a Rock attack or you're particularly scared of a Rock-weak Pokemon but in general, Agility Metagross has a significant advantage over Rock Polish Aggron.
And just to back me up a bit. (sorry ipl I know you dont like this thread!)
Lee: ipl, in general agility metagross or rp aggron?
imperfectluck.: metagross, no contest
Why is this being debated here?
It's being debated here because some think the only good Aggron set is the Choice Band set while others think Rock Polish can work and we obviously need to choose a set before team building.
We need to be as competitive as possible - using an inferior Pokemon is out of the question and the project will be doomed from the start if we do. With that in mind, I think it goes without saying why we are debating it here.
I'm not comparing the two Pokemon - I'm comparing two sets; AgilityMetagross with RockPolishAggron. There's a big difference.
I meant the Metagross/Aggron thing. I realize now that it was being used as an argument against the Rock Polish set. Maybe we could build this as a UU team, where most of its sets aren't outclassed as they are in OU. Having said that, as OU is the most standard battling enviroment to most people here and would probably function better for these early CCAPs.
I voted for the CB set.
I tried both the RP set and CB set with decent success. RP Aggron can be a real threat but at 398 speed it still gets outsped by a lot of stuff and if you go with Jolly you lose the much needed power. CB however does a really good job if making holes in your opponents team allowing another pokemons sweeping job easier. Also seeing as Aggron can come in on weak choiced attacks and force switches racking residual damage makes it better than the RP set in my eyes. Lets not forget that Aggron hits like a truck with 525 Atk and 225 base power STAB move.
I tried both the RP set and CB set with decent success. RP Aggron can be a real threat but at 398 speed it still gets outsped by a lot of stuff and if you go with Jolly you lose the much needed power. CB however does a really good job if making holes in your opponents team allowing another pokemons sweeping job easier. Also seeing as Aggron can come in on weak choiced attacks and force switches racking residual damage makes it better than the RP set in my eyes. Lets not forget that Aggron hits like a truck with 525 Atk and 225 base power STAB move.
i voted RP at the beggining but after having read the thread the full i changed my mind. I vote for CB set
Maybe a set with sub, head smash, focus punch, filler would work. of course you won't be hitting with the same power as the CB but imagine two 150 BP attack one with STAB where no pokemon in OU resist both attack.
Maybe a set with sub, head smash, focus punch, filler would work. of course you won't be hitting with the same power as the CB but imagine two 150 BP attack one with STAB where no pokemon in OU resist both attack.
I am heavily in favor for a more formal voting. If people can honestly explain to me why a RP Aggron is the best set to use, then I'd like to hear their story. It seems like the people who care to write out the more detailed responses are voting for CB, which is why I'm agreeing with Lee that it's sad to see Rock Polish winning.
CB Aggron is to bring it as soon as you can. RP Aggron is a late game sweeper.
Metagross outclasses Aggron as a sweeper? Not quite. Aggron can take some pokes Meta can't, and Meta can take pokes Aggron can't.
For example, Metagross is walled by Rotom, Suicune and Skarmory. Aggron is walled by Swampert, Hippowdon and most Torterra.
Really, there's always a place on a team for many pokes. Aggron is no different. It depends of your team.
Metagross outclasses Aggron as a sweeper? Not quite. Aggron can take some pokes Meta can't, and Meta can take pokes Aggron can't.
For example, Metagross is walled by Rotom, Suicune and Skarmory. Aggron is walled by Swampert, Hippowdon and most Torterra.
Really, there's always a place on a team for many pokes. Aggron is no different. It depends of your team.
What I think should be done is that we should discuss about the sets before being able to vote on them.
Back to the debate, I just can't see why the RP set isn't outclassed by Metagross or Rhyperior. Metagross has the better stats and a chance to increase its attack with Meteor Mash while Rhyperior has the better offensive typing and higher HP stat. The only thing going for RP Aggron is Head Smash is the best STAB move out of all three of the pokemon. With its Steel typing, it has no problem seeing a switch in oppurtunity to launch very powerful CB boosted Head Smashes that other pokemon can't do as well.
Back to the debate, I just can't see why the RP set isn't outclassed by Metagross or Rhyperior. Metagross has the better stats and a chance to increase its attack with Meteor Mash while Rhyperior has the better offensive typing and higher HP stat. The only thing going for RP Aggron is Head Smash is the best STAB move out of all three of the pokemon. With its Steel typing, it has no problem seeing a switch in oppurtunity to launch very powerful CB boosted Head Smashes that other pokemon can't do as well.