Community Create-A-Team #2: Aggron (OU)

Which would be the most effective Aggron set?

  • Choice Band

    Votes: 139 38.7%

  • Rock Polish

    Votes: 183 51.0%

  • Sub+Magnet Rise

    Votes: 31 8.6%

  • Other (Please be specific as to what it would be)

    Votes: 6 1.7%
  • Total voters
    359
  • Poll closed .
Exclamation Point said:
@ Bologo

Considering the first CCAT was in fact the first one probably contributed to its shaky-ness. And it was not like people were throwing out suggestions on how the process should be or should of been. Speaking of which, if there is going to be another CCAT there should/ will be a process discussion thread beforehand.
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I agree, and instead of choosing a Pokemon randomly for the next CCAT, I believe we should have a vote beforehand. For instance, instead of picking Heracross out of the blue (although there was some other thread about it), we should have had a poll between Heracross, other Pokemon, other Pokemon, etc. Also, I think we should nominate a Topic Leader, predominantly one who was most active during the previous process, such as how CAP does it.

An as far as a team goes, how about balanced? Because we are not using sweeper Aggron we could simply use a Pokemon to support it with Paralysis and a way to stop Bulky Grounds, and then fill in the rest of the slots.

If this is done in about two weeks, I would be happy to write the RMT up (I just posted an RMT last Friday).
 
Voting's over >_>

Anyways, if Aggron's going to get para support, I'd like to suggest Rotom-c with Discharge, as it'll provide some nice para support, deals with bulky Grounds with Leaf Storm, and works very well with Aggron from my experiences.
 
Honestly, we don't really need to focus THAT much on paralysis support. Most of Aggron's checks/counters are ground type, which is more beneficial to badly poisoned(2 layers of Toxic Spikes). If we were using the Rock Polish set, I would understand this a bit more, as crippling ScarfTran and ScarfTias would be more important. Now, however, paralysis support is pointless, and I don't know what you are thinking by suggesting it. If you would please elaborate on why we should have paralysis support, that would be nice.

Now onto why we need Toxic Spikes support: Bulky grounds, waters, and steels are likely to be the most common switchins to CB Aggron. Most bulky grounds(barring Gliscor, who is nearly OHKOed by Head Smash with rocks) and waters absolutely hate being badly poisoned. This allowed Aggron to spam Head Smash if he switches into something like Salamence's Outrage, without worrying about something getting a free switch. This way, we cut down prediction, and when you cut down prediction, you can eliminate common mistakes. Now, Toxic Spikes don't even affect steel types, you say? Well, this is certainly true, but at the same time, the steel types that resist Head Smash in OU(Jirachi, Metagross, Bronzong, Magnezone, Lucario) are either in the lead position(the case of the former 3) or are too frail to keep switching in(the latter 2, although Magnezone will trap you, so it will likely die right there anyways). The best steel counters in OU are Empoleon, Gyarados, Heatran, Kingdra, Magnezone, Rotom-A, Suicune, Swampert, Vaporeon, and Zapdos. From this list, we can immediately dismiss Empoleon, Heatran, and Magnezone, due to them and Aggron sharing fighting/ground weaknesses. So now it comes down to Gyarados, Kingdra, Rotom-A, Suicune, Swampert, Vaporeon, and Zapdos. Well, it would certainly be nice to have our switchin able to resist fighting/ground moves, so now we have Gyarados, Rotom-A, and Zapdos. Out of these, I would say Gyarados is the most expendable. He doesn't offer any useful support other than Intimidate(Metagross doesn't care) and Thunder Wave(Rotom-A/Zapdos) and Roar(Zapdos). It really comes down to Rotom-A vs. Zapdos:

I think Zapdos is superior, having higher speed than Rotom-A, and this team doesn't need Rotom's burning capabilities. Zapdos can run an effective Substitute, Roost, Thunderbolt, Heat Wave set, enabling it to stall out pokemon like Swampert, Hippowdon, Metagross, Jirachi, etc, as well as Tyranitar(thanks to our Toxic Spikes support). Zapdos also outruns Lucario, which is incredibly useful since he would love to get a free SD/attack as Aggron must switch out.

As you can see, I am suggesting the idea of a bulky offense, or even a light stall, with the other team members in mind being Roserade and Hippowdon. Paralysis support is probably the worst thing we can offer for Aggron, given his set of counters(steel types don't care all that much about being paralyzed either).
 
lol. Most of Aggron's counters we aren't worried about out speeding, as you said they're Grounds, most of it which aren't fast. Anyway Aggron is wanting to out speed the fragile sweepers such as Infernape, Azelf, Latias and so on. It can't do that without Thunder Wave seeing as they while mostly kill him before he gets a chance to kill them. That's why we're suggesting it. This isn't about out speeding things if can 2hko or 3hko, it already out speeds them. This is about the other team either switching for a 2hko, or letting there Infernape die.

Toxic Spikes isn't really needed that much. The only worthy true Ground with a recovery move is Hippowdon. If a Ground can't recover it isn't a threat to Aggron anyways.

Also, a Sub Zapdos.... in Sandstorm? lol Zapdos doesn't outclass Rotom in this idea. We want somethings that isn't taking 25% from Stealth Rock and losing its Leftovers WHILE using Substitute. Gyarados paired with Rotom and even Aggron is pretty good. Having good defensive capabilities along with paralysis support with great immunities between the 3. Having a Ghost is always a + for a team. Thunder Wave on Gyarados, Discharge on Rotom. Paralysis support is the best idea for this team. Who says Steels types don't care about being paralyzed? This isn't the old metagame where most Steels are slow. Scarftran, Scarfrachi, ScarfMagnezone, Empoleon, Lucario and Metagross wouldn't like being paralyzed.
 
i don't think that a stall-ish zapdos would appreciate the HP lost due to sandstorm from hippowdon though--otherwise your logic for zapdos as the first and most reliable teammate seems pretty good.

as far as toxic spikes, roserade also seems like a good idea, but only if we don't end up using celebi (who's been cited as a very good partner for aggron before). there are other pokemon who can set up toxic spikes, tentacruel jumps to mind as one. checking serebii, the other likely users would be forretress, drapion or omastar.

forretress seems ok, not big on omastar, and drapion is a big question mark mostly because i don't play UU and am unusure exactly how much abuse drapion can handle in OU--but being part poison he can also absorb toxic spikes, which must count for something even if roserade and tentacruel can boast the same thing.
 
0_o.

Why have we gone with Choice Band, when Rock Polish got more votes and support? Is it really because of all the people saying 'Agiligross Outclasses'?

CB Aggron only gets in on the same chances as Rock Polish, but has to do so multiple times. Rock Polish just needs one, good shot... and is not Inferor to Agiligross, because of the massivly powerful Head Smash.

Still the team style should fit Aggron. I vote for Bulky Offense. Paralysis support is meh in a team focused on a Choice Bander, especially as Choice pokemon have to hit and run so much. Instead, each pokemon should have a good shot at sweeping. As mentioned several times in the thread before, at least 2 set-up sweepers would be nice, especially if they benifit from Aggron. Latias and Gyarados were both brought up in the thread before, so both of them should be considered. (Especially as they hit from one side of the spectrum each) The other pokemon should contribute to Aggron, Latias and Gyarados. I definity belive that a bulky offense team is the way to go with this one, should give Aggron more chances to switch in.

Things/Pokemon to strongly consider: (In order of importance)
1. Latias: Perfect partner, resists match perfectly, hit opposite sides. Specs or Calm Mind works, either hitting insanely hard from Physical and Special together, or luring setup bait for Latias. I will be stunned if Latias don't make the team, because no pokemon pairs with Aggron like her.

2. Paralysis/Sleep/Burns: Burns help Aggron's Fighting and Ground weaknesses. Para helps the speed. Sleep helps everything, but would be better for RP Aggron, Rotom supplies two of these, Celebi is also a decent T-Waver, with resistances to Fighting and Ground

3. Hippowdon Lead/Tyranitar Lures: Aggron loves the sp.def boost from Sandstorms. T-Tar won't fit on the team, but Latias and Celebi lure it anyday of the week. Hippowdon means that you don't need T-Tar to come out, and may fool the foe into thinking it's a stall team they are facing.

4. Gyarados: Resists Fighting and Water, and is immune to Ground, while it lures in Rock types. Sure, the electric weakness goes unsolved, but Gyarados fares well against Aggron's counters, and can get free DD's from them.
 
I think that Balanced is the way to go, since with Spikes support, Aggron will have a lot of 2HKO's and OHKO's which it didn't have before. So, let's say that a team with both walls like Skarmory and Forretress (to lay down Spikes) and hard hitters like Aggron will do the trick. Opinions?
 
Blue_Tornado said:
I think that Balanced is the way to go, since with Spikes support, Aggron will have a lot of 2HKO's and OHKO's which it didn't have before. So, let's say that a team with both walls like Skarmory and Forretress (to lay down Spikes) and hard hitters like Aggron will do the trick. Opinions?
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3 Steels with no Special Defense asset, means Mixed Mence may walk all over the team.
 
Raikaria said:
0_o.

Why have we gone with Choice Band, when Rock Polish got more votes and support? Is it really because of all the people saying 'Agiligross Outclasses'?

CB Aggron only gets in on the same chances as Rock Polish, but has to do so multiple times. Rock Polish just needs one, good shot... and is not Inferor to Agiligross, because of the massivly powerful Head Smash.

Still the team style should fit Aggron. I vote for Bulky Offense. Paralysis support is meh in a team focused on a Choice Bander, especially as Choice pokemon have to hit and run so much. Instead, each pokemon should have a good shot at sweeping. As mentioned several times in the thread before, at least 2 set-up sweepers would be nice, especially if they benifit from Aggron. Latias and Gyarados were both brought up in the thread before, so both of them should be considered. (Especially as they hit from one side of the spectrum each) The other pokemon should contribute to Aggron, Latias and Gyarados. I definity belive that a bulky offense team is the way to go with this one, should give Aggron more chances to switch in.

Things/Pokemon to strongly consider: (In order of importance)
1. Latias: Perfect partner, resists match perfectly, hit opposite sides. Specs or Calm Mind works, either hitting insanely hard from Physical and Special together, or luring setup bait for Latias. I will be stunned if Latias don't make the team, because no pokemon pairs with Aggron like her.

2. Paralysis/Sleep/Burns: Burns help Aggron's Fighting and Ground weaknesses. Para helps the speed. Sleep helps everything, but would be better for RP Aggron, Rotom supplies two of these, Celebi is also a decent T-Waver, with resistances to Fighting and Ground

3. Hippowdon Lead/Tyranitar Lures: Aggron loves the sp.def boost from Sandstorms. T-Tar won't fit on the team, but Latias and Celebi lure it anyday of the week. Hippowdon means that you don't need T-Tar to come out, and may fool the foe into thinking it's a stall team they are facing.

4. Gyarados: Resists Fighting and Water, and is immune to Ground, while it lures in Rock types. Sure, the electric weakness goes unsolved, but Gyarados fares well against Aggron's counters, and can get free DD's from them.
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I agree with this. Also, we're gonna have AT LEAST 1 ground type (Swampy, anyone?) so Gyara could work.
 
Why have we gone with Choice Band, when Rock Polish got more votes and support? Is it really because of all the people saying 'Agiligross Outclasses'?

CB Aggron only gets in on the same chances as Rock Polish, but has to do so multiple times. Rock Polish just needs one, good shot... and is not Inferor to Agiligross, because of the massivly powerful Head Smash.
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It kinda is. Outclassed is a harsh word but Agiligross is *better* per say.
Agiliycross can reach a massive speed of 470 something (to lazy to find it) with the magic Speed EV. Aggron unfortunately only nets 398 (I think) and even then Scarf users at speed him.

And Headsmash is only 9% stronger than Meteor mash. Meteor Mash having more accuracy AND granting a power boost (rarely)
 
blasphemy1 said:
Now onto why we need Toxic Spikes support: Bulky grounds, waters, and steels are likely to be the most common switchins to CB Aggron. Most bulky grounds(barring Gliscor, who is nearly OHKOed by Head Smash with rocks) and waters absolutely hate being badly poisoned. This allowed Aggron to spam Head Smash if he switches into something like Salamence's Outrage, without worrying about something getting a free switch. This way, we cut down prediction, and when you cut down prediction, you can eliminate common mistakes. Now, Toxic Spikes don't even affect steel types, you say? Well, this is certainly true, but at the same time, the steel types that resist Head Smash in OU(Jirachi, Metagross, Bronzong, Magnezone, Lucario) are either in the lead position(the case of the former 3) or are too frail to keep switching in(the latter 2, although Magnezone will trap you, so it will likely die right there anyways). The best steel counters in OU are Empoleon, Gyarados, Heatran, Kingdra, Magnezone, Rotom-A, Suicune, Swampert, Vaporeon, and Zapdos. From this list, we can immediately dismiss Empoleon, Heatran, and Magnezone, due to them and Aggron sharing fighting/ground weaknesses. So now it comes down to Gyarados, Kingdra, Rotom-A, Suicune, Swampert, Vaporeon, and Zapdos. Well, it would certainly be nice to have our switchin able to resist fighting/ground moves, so now we have Gyarados, Rotom-A, and Zapdos. Out of these, I would say Gyarados is the most expendable. He doesn't offer any useful support other than Intimidate(Metagross doesn't care) and Thunder Wave(Rotom-A/Zapdos) and Roar(Zapdos). It really comes down to Rotom-A vs. Zapdos:

I think Zapdos is superior, having higher speed than Rotom-A, and this team doesn't need Rotom's burning capabilities. Zapdos can run an effective Substitute, Roost, Thunderbolt, Heat Wave set, enabling it to stall out pokemon like Swampert, Hippowdon, Metagross, Jirachi, etc, as well as Tyranitar(thanks to our Toxic Spikes support). Zapdos also outruns Lucario, which is incredibly useful since he would love to get a free SD/attack as Aggron must switch out.
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I've tried Zapdos as support, and it doesn't work nearly as well as some of the other options. The four best from my experience have been Celebi, Latias, Rotom-C and a combination of Gliscor/Vaporeon. Since we have team slots to spare, I suggest Gliscor/Vaporeon, but Latias and Rotom are both solid options (Celebi is more for para support and bulky grounds, so toxic spikes lower its usefulness). Gliscor deals with steels and fighting types fairly easily (Dancing tank is great against Lucario), and vaporeon completely eliminates gliscor/Aggrons water weakness. The downside to this is Tentacruel can't be used for toxic spikes support, so you're limited to Forretress or UUs, if you want to avoid that Latias and Rotom both work well with Tentacruel as well as Aggron. or you could just drop vaporeon and add Tentacruel, but you'd need another water resist on the team to cover your swampert weakness.

really though, the support pokemon should depend on who we use as a spiker.

Tentacruel - Rotom (bonus as a spin blocker) or Latias
Forretress - Latias or Vaporeon/Gliscor depending on how bulky we want the team
Roserade - Vaporeon/Gliscor or Rotom
Other (drapion/nidoqueen, but they might not be viable just off stats/ground weakness) - ???


and for ground support I vote against hippowdon, sand stream hurts his best partners more than it helps him. Gliscor or pert
 
Carmelo Anthony said:
lol. Most of Aggron's counters we aren't worried about out speeding, as you said they're Grounds, most of it which aren't fast. Anyway Aggron is wanting to out speed the fragile sweepers such as Infernape, Azelf, Latias and so on. It can't do that without Thunder Wave seeing as they while mostly kill him before he gets a chance to kill them. That's why we're suggesting it. This isn't about out speeding things if can 2hko or 3hko, it already out speeds them. This is about the other team either switching for a 2hko, or letting there Infernape die.

Toxic Spikes isn't really needed that much. The only worthy true Ground with a recovery move is Hippowdon. If a Ground can't recover it isn't a threat to Aggron anyways.

Also, a Sub Zapdos.... in Sandstorm? lol Zapdos doesn't outclass Rotom in this idea. We want somethings that isn't taking 25% from Stealth Rock and losing its Leftovers WHILE using Substitute. Gyarados paired with Rotom and even Aggron is pretty good. Having good defensive capabilities along with paralysis support with great immunities between the 3. Having a Ghost is always a + for a team. Thunder Wave on Gyarados, Discharge on Rotom. Paralysis support is the best idea for this team. Who says Steels types don't care about being paralyzed? This isn't the old metagame where most Steels are slow. Scarftran, Scarfrachi, ScarfMagnezone, Empoleon, Lucario and Metagross wouldn't like being paralyzed.
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Aggron doesn't really need paralysis support against the pokemon you listed, as if they switch in, they die. Aggron will be forced out, yes, but he is forced out against nearly every pokemon in OU.

About Zapdos, while it doesn't appreciate it, we are going to be forcing out something like Lucario, then setting up a Substitute, then Roosting away all of the damage. We don't need Hippowdon necessarily, it would just be a nice way to set up Stealth Rock(Swampert can do this arguably better though). Rotom-A would probably be superior in this slot though, giving Aggron a free switch if Tyranitar decides to Crunch.

Steels still don't care about being paralyzed/you will never have the opportunity to do so. A pokemon like ScarfTran will use Earth Power, then as you send in Rotom-A/whatever, it will switch out. SubTran doesn't care about you Discharging its Substitute either, as it gets a free hit. ScarfJirachi isn't really a threat to Aggron, so how would be able to paralyze it if we can't lure it? Lol at you mentioning Magnezone. How do you paralyze something when it kills Aggron due to Magnet Pull? It isn't possible. Empoleon has Substitute, and will get a free one as we switch out, so he won't become paralyzed either(he can Agility --> Sub down to 25% --> petaya+torrent --> kill). Lucario is in the same boat. He will Close Combat, then switch out of Rotom-A/Celebi/Zapdos/Latias. Metagross will likely blow up in the beginning of the match, and he really doesn't care about paralysis. You need to think of the situations, rather than pulling some crap theorymon out of your ass. We will never get the opportunity to paralyze the steels in the first place.
 
Now that we decided on our set, I see two viable styles to base the team on.

Bulky offense is one of the styles that I was thinking of; CB Head Smashes are sure to open up holes for a sweeper or two to exploit. This style will also have its type weaknesses covered to maximize the amount of time our CB Aggron can switch in and dish out the pain.

Another viable team style could be Balanced/Light Stall. CB Aggron will benefit greatly from the Sand Storm support-I'm assuming Hippowdon would be here if we're using this style-and the residual damage from Spike Stacking. In this style, our CBer will be be either removing problem pokemon for our stalling tactics or finishing off weakened 'Mons.
 
Scepticallistic said:
I don't know where you got the 9% from, but Head Smash is 50% stronger than Meteor Mash, a very significant difference.
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Metagross has much more attack than Aggron, so Aggron's Head Smash is not 50% more powerful than Metagross's Meteor Mash.

Still, even accounting for accuracy, I'm getting the difference between Jolly Aggron and Adamant Metagross to be 11%. Without accuracy, it's 18%. Where did we get this 9% figure?
 
petrie911 said:
Metagross has much more attack than Aggron, so Aggron's Head Smash is not 50% more powerful than Metagross's Meteor Mash.

Still, even accounting for accuracy, I'm getting the difference between Jolly Aggron and Adamant Metagross to be 11%. Without accuracy, it's 18%. Where did we get this 9% figure?
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He is talking about the moves power itself, Head Smash is 150 whilst Meteor Mash is 100.

I voted for CB, just because I think if you really wanted a Rock Polish/speed up user, AgiliGross and SubPetaya Empoleon are there already, and I don't see RP Aggron being much better than either. Might as well use something it can be really useful at.
 
Yeah, but there are great choice bander too so maybe we shouldn't use Aggron at all.
I believe the whole argument of looking for a sizeable niche where Aggron excels over everything else in existence was flawed anyway.
You'll not find it.
 
deluge said:
Yeah, but there are great choice bander too so maybe we shouldn't use Aggron at all.
I believe the whole argument of looking for a sizeable niche where Aggron excels over everything else in existence was flawed anyway.
You'll not find it.
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That defies the purpose of an aggron team.
 
I appreciate all of the discussion guys, but we're still talking about the type of team style to use. Stay on topic please!
 
Yeah semistall would seem to be really convenient. Gliscor and rotom can come in and cover its weaknesses while skarmory/roserade puts down entry hazards.
 
While some people are voting for para support, and others are voting for entry hazard support, I feel a team consisting of entry hazards with possible paralysis support would be nice.

Reason: As previously stated, most of Aggron's counters will be either Bulky Grounds/Waters. Now, neither of these Pokemon will really care about being paralyzed; they are already slower than a sleeping Snorlax. Truly, to be effective, we need them to come in, lose a large amount of their health to entry hazards, and then see if they still take a 2HKO, or if they are reduced to one.
While paralysis support is nice, there are 6 Pokemon, I believe, who are over the 3HKO number or equivalent to it. While it would be nice to paralyze these Pokemon, that still won't stop them from stopping Aggron, although it might slow them down. Instead, taking SR + Spikes + (possible) T-spikes would reduce their health significantly, and lower their HP, making the OHKO and sweeping possibility a lot easier.

Of course, these are just my opinions on the subject as of today, and are viable to change through the following days of testing out some different styles.
 
Well looking through, Semistall does seem to be very appealing. Pokemon like Celebi, Rotom, and Gyarados would do well on the team. Anyways, we will discuss for the rest of today and tomorrow, and we will go through bolded voting on Thursday!
 
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