CAP 9 CAP 9 - Part 5 - Build Bias Discussion

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ReysonTheNoble said:
Yes, taunt may temporarily stop Skarmory, Forry, and Hippo, but all they have to do is switch out and then switch back in, or hit us with a STAB Brave Bird/ EQ while we do nothing(Skarmory) or insignificant damage(Hippo). Really, the only way this could win against Hippo is to give it good Sp. Atk or give it reliable recovery, which would be kin of weird on an offensive pokemon. Sure, we can spin the hazards away, but that is a pretty much wasted movespace on CAP 9 and it would just be a never ending stall war. I think the only way to completely stop these secondary users is to get rid of them, as just scaring them off means they will just come back later.
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I've already acknowledged that killing is easier. But, those are probably the biggies for this CAP. A switch out is a free turn for yourself. We can't assure ourselves that this will do nothing in front of Skarmory or Hippowdon either -- we have no idea what this thing will get, or what stat spread it will use. Rapid Spin is by no means a "waste of a slot" if CAP 9 needs it to Stop the Secondary. Dark/Ground makes an excellent typing to fend off Rotom-a, the biggest spin blocker in OU. Apologies for the minor poll jumping. We do not need to *win* against all of the secondary, although to cover most of them is preferred. Considering that this CAP is SOMEWHAT offensive, I think emphasizing one attack stat would be fine. There's also the Metagross example I posted above.
 
Objection said:
Furthermore, just because we make it 100% physical doesn't mean it can't handle Skarmory and Forretress. Hariyama has base 120 attack and without any boosting items, it can 2HKO Skarmory after Stealth Rock with Focus Punch. By extension, this means a CB Machamp's DynamicPunch can achieve the same effect. While these may not be the ideal pokes to switch in to Skarmory, the point is that a purely physical mon is not always going to be walled by Skarmory/Hippowdon/Forretress. In fact, the only reason Skarmory would definitely wall CAP9 is resistance to one STAB and immunity to the other.
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You're really going to try and defend all physical with Machamp's CB Dynamic Punch 2HKOing Skarmory? Skarmory out speeds and can OHKO with Brave Bird with Rocks (very slim chance) and on Average with Spikes.

The fact that Skarmory is 2HKOed from a neutral STAB BP 100 move off a CB base 130 max attack is a testament to Skarmory's durability. Of course it's feasible to break a strong wall with a full out offensive attack, but Skarmory's weaknesses (when not Roosting) to physical attacks are not too bad. Only Volt Tackle or Flare Blitz (and Sacred Fire I guess) pose big threats and they are very rarely seen.

By going mixed, CAP9 automatically has the potential to beat Skarmory or Forretress, two big time set up Pokemon.

And, being Dark, there's a plethora of options (like Nasty Plot) to make special, or mixed sets, very threatening. Adding in the threat of surprise will make CAP9 very strong at mind games. Between potentially Pursuit, Sucker Punch, Earthquake, the threat of mixed and good stats + movepool to support this, CAP9 will be down right terrible to face, in theory.
 
We need to remember this thing has only 4 moveslots. Pursuit, EQ, and a special attack would leave us with only one slot for stopping the secondary. Drop Pursuit or EQ and we leave gaping holes in our coverage.
 
Giving it a decent special attack does just what you say as well, namely, scaring them away so they can set up on something else later. Anyways, Hippo would only be setting up SR once, as would Gliscor and Swampert, so the main concerns are Skarmory and Forretress. Forretress is hit neutral by EQ, and doesn't do much damage back, so Taunt pretty much shuts Forry down. Skarmory is a bit different since you don't hurt it much with your STAB moves, but you can Taunt it, take a neutral Brave Bird if it predicts the Taunt (if not, you don't even take any damage), and then switch to a counter while it is forced to Brave Bird. Sure it can switch out and come in later, but it can do that against any set.
 
FlareBlitz said:
I vote for Strong Physical with S.def Bulk.
The nature of CAP9 is that it will switch in multiple times to stop/limit the impact of secondary effects. That's why I viewed a part-Ground typing as so important (immunity to SS and resistance to rocks). And it is therefore equally important that CAP9 has the defenses to take multiple attacks and live, which it cannot do if we also try to give it a good s.atk in addition to its good speed and attack.
Regarding being walled by skarmory/hippo, it's important to realize that this CAP is not meant as a wall-breaker. Its purpose is not to kill different types of walls, but to make them useless by forcing them to rely on direct damage attacks instead of secondary effect moves. It cannot accomplish this goal very well if, after forcing these walls to use direct damage attacks, it then takes a whole bunch of damage from them. We need to be able to take Blissey's ice beams, Celebi's grass knot/leaf storm (depending on the weight we settle on), Rotom's shadow balls, and even Latias' ice beam/draco meteor. This is especially important considering that if these pokemon can do enough damage by just staying in, they would have no reason to switch (making pursuit pretty pointless).
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Indeed. Despite the fact Porygon's two competitively viable evolutions wer having a party the day we picked Dark as a primary type and an even bigger one upon selecting Ground-typing, Sp. Defensive Bulk could end their happy dance, er, happy levitation. In fact, most walls and Pokemon that rely on status and trick are specially inclined (Blissey the anthropomorthic egg-kangaroo hybrid, Alakazam the frail and speedy but extremely good at delivering KOs to high-tier CAPs while being UU fodder otherwise, Roserade the exact opposite of Alakazam in tier use rise and master of Sleep Powders, Fidgit the Fearsome Setup-er, Kitsunoh the Steel-typed, and Porygon-2/Z the joyful at seeing a key Ice Beam weakness on this guy.) However, note that in most cases, such as that of Blissey, Alakazam, Roserade, and possibly Fidgit, the special defense on these guys is usually better than their physical defense (Alakazam is frail either way, but yeah) so I would argue that he needs physical attack mainly so he can take out these Pokemon without a hitch.

In other words, it needs an opposite build to Cyclohm to do its task: High special defense, but great attack. Maybe good speed.
 
Plus said:
I've already acknowledged that killing is easier. But, those are probably the biggies for this CAP. A switch out is a free turn for yourself. We can't assure ourselves that this will do nothing in front of Skarmory or Hippowdon either -- we have no idea what this thing will get, or what stat spread it will use. Rapid Spin is by no means a "waste of a slot" if CAP 9 needs it to Stop the Secondary. Dark/Ground makes an excellent typing to fend off Rotom-a, the biggest spin blocker in OU. Apologies for the minor poll jumping. We do not need to *win* against all of the secondary, although to cover most of them is preferred. Considering that this CAP is SOMEWHAT offensive, I think emphasizing one attack stat would be fine. There's also the Metagross example I posted above.
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I'm just saying, Mixed, Somewhat Physical is probably the best choice here. Yes, it will limit our offensive capabilities somewhat, but in exchange, we can cover more ground and switch in to more threats via a boosted Sp. Atk AND Sp. Def. And unless we give this CAP something to deal with Burn, Rotom will still pose a threat. Also, I think we aren't thinking about the fact that this pokemon can only use four moves at a time. It can't use Crunch/EQ/Pursuit/Taunt/Rapid Spin/Coverage moves. It would be able to deal with a lot of things, yes, but not all at the same time. At least with a half-decent Sp.Atk, we could use something like Pursuit/EQ/Fire Blast/Grass Knot to hit the majority of secondary users. Basically, Somewhat mixed gives us more options and versatility to stop the secondary.

EDIT: Consider this. We send in CAP9 to stop a Skarmory while it sets up a layer of Spikes. Predicted our Taunt, your opponent switches into Rotom-C. Now what do you do? Stay in and take a Leaf Storm? Nope, you switch out. If we have something other than Taunt to deal with the likes of Skarmory, this scenario could be prevented. And don't just say that this is very situational and that there are ways to prevent it etc. There are also a lot of other bad situations relying on Taunt leads us to. That's why Sp. Atk is important to this CAP.
 
If we force Skarm or Hippo to switch out/use their direct attacks, we did our job.
CAP 9 is not a wallbreaker. It is meant to stop pokemon from using secondary moves. If it does that, then it served the purpose for which we created it. But if we give its build a good s.atk (and less bulk) then not only does it take an unacceptable level of damage when dealing with skarm/hippo, it actually _loses_ to Latias/Rotom/Celebi, since they'll just take advantage of its lack of bulk with SE attacks while you do pathetic damage by using pursuit against something that won't switch.
The primary goal here is to create a pokemon that can safely switch in against common secondary users and prevent them from using their secondaries. This does not imply that this pokemon has to be able to kill them, but it does imply that it has to be able to survive their attacks.
 
I have read through this thread and come up with an idea on the ability, which I believe would quell a lot of problems regarding this poke, and free up space. How about an ability that automaticall taunts the opposing pokemon? It's like intimidate only it taunts instead. Therefore, the poke it switches into could not use status on it or continue to lay down rocks, and it would have 4 free slots for moves, including rapid spin. (before anyone says it, I know this is discussion on build, this is just an idea)

Regarding build, I'm favoring a physical unless we can implement a special version of pursuit. (which is doubtful) With its' two best type attacks being EQ and Pursuit, I don't see any other option. Perhaps give it a mediocre SpA stat and add Hydro Pump?
 
FlareBlitz said:
If we force Skarm or Hippo to switch out/use their direct attacks, we did our job.
CAP 9 is not a wallbreaker. It is meant to stop pokemon from using secondary moves. If it does that, then it served the purpose for which we created it. But if we give its build a good s.atk (and less bulk) then not only does it take an unacceptable level of damage when dealing with skarm/hippo, it actually _loses_ to Latias/Rotom/Celebi, since they'll just take advantage of its lack of bulk with SE attacks while you do pathetic damage by using pursuit against something that won't switch.
The primary goal here is to create a pokemon that can safely switch in against common secondary users and prevent them from using their secondaries. This does not imply that this pokemon has to be able to kill them, but it does imply that it has to be able to survive their attacks.
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Sigh, I hate this. It makes me a thread hogger, but my point seems lost on everyone. First, let me emphasize that this pokemon is Somewhat Offensive, meaning that the majority of stats WILL go into attacking stats. Second, let me point out that the Physical/Special Bias does not only apply to attack, but also to defense. You want this CAP that can come into Latias/Rotom/Celebi, but you want to nerf its Sp.Def by giving it a Physical build? The special attack I've been saying would be useful to this CAP would be just that; useful. But, if we really want this thing to do it's job correctly, we need some support from the special side, whether it is in the form of Sp.Atk, Sp. Def, or both. Also, everyone keeps saying that this isn't a wall breaker, but the majority of secondary users are walls, and if they aren't walls, they're Trick users. So what about being a wall breaker that punishes Trick users isn't stopping the secondary?
 
This isn't "Stop the Trick", it's "Stop the Secondary". We don't have to focus on eliminating Trick users, because that's not our concept. We've already done that by making this CAP Dark-type, that's all it really needs. We need to focus on a variety of these effects, not just one because its most common out of the other effects.

Anyway, I'd like this CAP to go physical only, not mixed. We chose Dark and Ground because of their STAB Pursuit and bonus STAB Earthquake, respectively (more reasons for their selections to, but you get the idea). I don't see why we should reduce the damage output of these moves by going mixed. What would going mixed really accomplish? Sure we can give this Flamethrower to eat Skarmory, or Grass Knot to nail Swampert, but we can essentially stop both of those Pokemon (Skarmory the most) just by using Taunt. Not only that, but by going purely physical, CAP's fantastic dual STAB combo will be very dangerous, since each of these types compliment each other in terms of coverage.

That's all I really have to say. I don't really want this to have mixed offensive stats.
 
"Second, let me point out that the Physical/Special Bias does not only aply to attack, but also to defense. You want this CAP that can come into Latias/Rotom/Celebi, but you want to nerf its Sp.Def by giving it a Physical build?"

No. As I pointed out in my original post, I want this pokemon to have a good physical attack but also a good s.def. I was not aware that the two are mutually exclusive.

"Also, everyone keeps saying that this isn't a wall breaker, but the majority of secondary users are walls, and if they aren't walls, they're Trick users. So what about being a wall breaker that punishes Trick users isn't stopping the secondary?"

Not to poll jump, but if we wanted CAP9 to be a wall-breaker, we would have given it a more offensive bias. You'll note that Infernape and Salamence, two of the premier OU wallbreakers, are in the "Offensive" category, while ours is in the "Somewhat Offensive" category. That does not preclude our CAP from being a wallbreaker, obviously, but its stats are not entirely suited to being one. A bulkier spread seems more appropriate.
More relevantly, a bulkier spread would allow our CAP to have a much easier time stopping the secondary. For instance, Infernape is not at all comfortable switching into some secondary users it could otherwise demolish (Skarmory does absurd damage with Brave Bird, Swampert kills with EQ, Vaporeon kills with Surf, Bronzong kills with EQ, etc). This allows them to use their secondaries because you know that if you mispredict and they attack instead of using a support move, you just lost a pokemon for nothing. If our CAP is bulky, however, it doesn't care what a secondary user does, and therefore would have much more freedom switching in. It no longer unduly fears random grass attacks from Celebi or the newly OU roserade. It no longer fears the omnipresent ice beam from walls. It doesn't fear Rotom-C's leaf storm. If we try and make our CAP into a wallbreaker, it cannot risk switching into these attacks, and so will always be limited in achieving its primary goal.
 
Strong pursuit is a must, IMO. And agree with the some special attack to kill those pure physical walls. So we get a Mixed, possibly Physical
 
Fuzznip said:
Anyway, I'd like this CAP to go physical only, not mixed. We chose Dark and Ground because of their STAB Pursuit and bonus STAB Earthquake, respectively (more reasons for their selections to, but you get the idea). I don't see why we should reduce the damage output of these moves by going mixed. What would going mixed really accomplish? Sure we can give this Flamethrower to eat Skarmory, or Grass Knot to nail Swampert, but we can essentially stop both of those Pokemon (Skarmory the most) just by using Taunt. Not only that, but by going purely physical, CAP's fantastic dual STAB combo will be very dangerous, since each of these types compliment each other in terms of coverage.

That's all I really have to say. I don't really want this to have mixed offensive stats.
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There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding going around here. Mixed, possibly physical does not imply mixed offensive stats. A Pokemon with high special defense and high attack would be considered mixed. As I said before, Snorlax, known for being nigh exclusively a physical attacker, is actually considered a specially biased mixed Pokemon due to its special defense. If we want this thing to have good special defense, we will need Mixed, possibly physical.
 
petrie911 said:
There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding going around here. Mixed, possibly physical does not imply mixed offensive stats. A Pokemon with high special defense and high attack would be considered mixed. As I said before, Snorlax, known for being nigh exclusively a physical attacker, is actually considered a specially biased mixed Pokemon due to its special defense. If we want this thing to have good special defense, we will need Mixed, possibly physical.
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I know this. I clearly said:

That's all I really have to say. I don't really want this to have mixed offensive stats.
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I never said anything about its defenses, only offenses. I just pointed out why I don't want this to have a mixed offensive potential.
 
WarsJosh said:
We need to remember this thing has only 4 moveslots. Pursuit, EQ, and a special attack would leave us with only one slot for stopping the secondary. Drop Pursuit or EQ and we leave gaping holes in our coverage.
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Just want to make sure everyone saw this, as it's a great point. If we want to run the two powerful STABs that this CAP has, then we only have two slots for stopping the secondary. Killing secondary users cannot be the only way this CAP stops secondary effects, or we utterly failed this concept, and won't learn a sing thing. So, we need to remember that we're going to be running (hopefully) two supporting moves to shut down secondary users. Examples: Taunt, Rapid Spin, Aromatherapy... The list is pretty big.* So, to effectively do its job, the CAP is going to need to focus on a single spectrum of attacking, and that's it.

Also, by no means does going Physical mean that special defense is thrown out the door. Even something like 100/120/90/60/90/70 (again a quick, not serious, example) has a +32 physical bias.


*I am not saying these moves should be on the CAP. This CAP should never get Aroma, and the other moves should be debated. I was highlighting examples.
 
WarsJosh said:
We need to remember this thing has only 4 moveslots. Pursuit, EQ, and a special attack would leave us with only one slot for stopping the secondary. Drop Pursuit or EQ and we leave gaping holes in our coverage.
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Wouldn't pursuit and special attack both be stopping the secondary? Pursuit those trick users and use your special attack of choice for hippow/glis or skarm/forry. And it still leaves you with one move slot for taunt. I think that killing the enemy and stopping them from setting up their secondary is more effective then just making them switch out with taunt so they can come back later. Also you'd need some sort of reliable recovery otherwise they would just slowly wear you down.
 
Yeah, I support Physical. CAP9 can easily have sufficient sdef without needing a bias of less than 20. I would rather have the extra power available with a total bias to physical.
 
Getting a late start in the arguement here, I must say there is no legitimate reason not to support Physical. Yes CAP9 wouldn't be able to do much damage to certain pokemon like Hippo, and Skarm-but its damage across the board increases. Mixed walls like Swampert and Jirachi would have more to fear, and its not like CAP9 would use its special moves anyway- look at Lucario, it is Biased to the special side and still primarily uses sets that are all physical. That is just a testament to how good physical moves are.

Also, there are people complaining about it not being mixed will hurt CAP9's defenses. Well, if you play around with the Stat Calculator, yo can find it is not hard to get a PSB of greater than 30, while still keeping a SpD around 90, and a BST of less than 540, which is where many people place a special line we can't cross. In fact I am currently looking at a spread that has 100 SpD, is 540 BST and has a ODB of about ten, and is comfortably above 35 PSB. So do some calcs before you claim that this thing can't take special hits without a mixed bias.
 
hydrolphin said:
Getting a late start in the arguement here, I must say there is no legitimate reason not to support Physical. Yes CAP9 wouldn't be able to do much damage to certain pokemon like Hippo, and Skarm-but its damage across the board increases. Mixed walls like Swampert and Jirachi would have more to fear, and its not like CAP9 would use its special moves anyway- look at Lucario, it is Biased to the special side and still primarily uses sets that are all physical. That is just a testament to how good physical moves are.

Also, there are people complaining about it not being mixed will hurt CAP9's defenses. Well, if you play around with the Stat Calculator, yo can find it is not hard to get a PSB of greater than 30, while still keeping a SpD around 90, and a BST of less than 540, which is where many people place a special line we can't cross. In fact I am currently looking at a spread that has 100 SpD, is 540 BST and has a ODB of about ten, and is comfortably above 35 PSB. So do some calcs before you claim that this thing can't take special hits without a mixed bias.
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I had done some calcs before I posted anything. I just assumed we weren't going to "MAX OUT TEH STATS!!1". Looking to previous CAPs as a basis, I see that the highest stat is Stratagem's Speed, 130, followed by his Sp. Atk and Pyroak's HP, 120. 130 is also Scizor's Attack stat, while 135 is the highest Attack stat in all of OU (Salamence and Metagross). So, reasonably, our CAPs attack should not exceed 135, and probably should max out at 130. Also, the lowest stat given to any CAP is Kitsunoh's Sp.Atk, a measly 55. So within reason, CAP9's Sp.Atk Shouldn't be any lower than 55. With either pure Physical, or with Physical, possibly mixed, you can have a good Physical sweeping ability and a good Special Tanking ability, while still falling under Somewhat Offensive. Pure physical can let us 'max out' our attack, but Mixed, Somewhat Physical grants us extra bulk while only losing, roughly, 10 points in our attack stat. It really depends on which one we want our CAP to do, deal a little more damage, or stay alive a little bit longer. I, personally, am in favor of staying alive, but either choice is a good one.
 
I'm teetering between Pure Physical and Mixed with a strong Physical Bias.

On one hand, I can see where a useful Special movepool would help a lot with the more Phyiscally bulky walls. Grass Knot for Swampert, Hippowdon; Flamethrower for Skarmory, Forretress. However, I can see the reverse side where it has two powerful phyiscal STABS and wants to make dire use of them.

I would like to reiterate, however, what has been constantly said from the start of this concept. You can't use taunt and switch in on the same turn. Saying "It can taunt x," is a terrible argument for stopping the secondary. Why did we go through all of this trouble, if all everyone wants is Azelf with a different typing? Sure, you can use taunt. However, any status or secondary effect used the turn you switch in is still going to hit or get set up. Then, they can just save you the trouble and switch out. Arguing for taunt as the main means of stopping the secondary is like arguing that Heatran is the perfect Pokemon to "Stop the Secondary" simply because it has Flash Fire, imo.
 
Why would previous CAPs be taken into account? If we did that, Stratagem wouldn't have 130 Speed as no CAP before it had a stat of 130. By that logic, all CAP stats should be between 116 and 65, as that is the range for Syclant, the first CAP.

You are also not realizing that the points taken out of Sp.Atk can go into its bulk rather than dumping it into Attack. This gives it a more Physical build while still allowing for bulk on both sides.

EDIT: at the Taunt argument: You also can't switch in and KO at the same time. Once they set up their hazard, it is up until you Spin it away. Taunting them forces them to attack you, giving you a turn where they have to either attack or switch, effectively stopping their secondary move from continuously being used. Special Attacking forces them to either switch or die, stopping the secondary to the same extent as Taunt does.
 
zorbees said:
Why would previous CAPs be taken into account? If we did that, Stratagem wouldn't have 130 Speed as no CAP before it had a stat of 130. By that logic, all CAP stats should be between 116 and 65, as that is the range for Syclant, the first CAP.

You are also not realizing that the points taken out of Sp.Atk can go into its bulk rather than dumping it into Attack. This gives it a more Physical build while still allowing for bulk on both sides.
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I used it as a guideline. The attack is reasonable, as no other pokemon in the tier has an attack stat of higher than 135. The Sp.Atk...well, that's just lowering one stat to raise anther. Giving it an extremely low stat just to raise others seems...the best way to put it would be greedy. "CAP9 doesn't need these stats in Sp.Atk, so let's give them to Sp.Def!" That's friggin communism.

Also, taking points out of Sp.Atk and putting them into defenses is a good idea. If only this CAP wasn't Somewhat Offensive, I would do it. Sadly, it is. If you want a defensive poke, wait until next time.
 
Who said anything about a Defensive CAP9? The point is Sp.Atk could easily be sacrificed for some extra bulk needed to switch in more often and stop secondary users. I'm pretty sure that was the idea behind making it Somewhat Offensive and not a pure Offensive glass cannon or something of the like.
 
Having rexamined the debate and lookin at it objectively, I have changed my stance to Physical Bias. A physical build allows CAP to better use it's powerful STAB options that we gave it to use. Also, with a physical build it still could achieve a fair amount of special bulk, while gaining some physical bulk. With options such as Taunt and Rapid Spin to possibly put on it, Physical users will either have to switch out, or they're second effects will be gone. Also, running a Physical spread allows it to pose a more immediate danger to spin blockers such as Rotom or Dusknoir, so they may be less likely to switch in.
 
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