I'm not saying that Scizor should be uber. But, it has had a huge affect on the metagame. Fast, fragile sweepers are destroyed by it, most walls take a decent hit from its CB attacks, and it checks many common OU Pokemon. However, I don't think that Scizor is metagame reliant. In fact, I think that it is one of the reasons for the current metagame.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Smogon Shoddy Server Statistics - September 2009
- Thread starter DougJustDoug
- Start date
Scizor's usage is only so high because it checks so many deadly threats, Salamence and Latias in particular. It isn't overpowered in any way. It just happens to be a well-rounded utility Pokemon. I don't think it's uber at all, considering so many Pokemon in OU resist Scizor's main moves, particularly Gyarados and Heatran, who are #3 and #4 respectively.
Frail sweepers may have taken a hit, but when you think about it, only Nasty Plot Azelf/Porygon-Z and Weavile have taken a significant drop in usage. And even then, Azelf is still one of the best leads in the game so Scizor really hasn't killed it off, it only delegated it to being a lead. Weavile's drop in usage can probably be blamed more on Garchomp/Shaymin-S's banishment to OU than Scizor being able to kill it.
Gengar has still been in the top 10, or at least close to it, despite CB Scizor being able to dispose of it easily.
Frail sweepers may have taken a hit, but when you think about it, only Nasty Plot Azelf/Porygon-Z and Weavile have taken a significant drop in usage. And even then, Azelf is still one of the best leads in the game so Scizor really hasn't killed it off, it only delegated it to being a lead. Weavile's drop in usage can probably be blamed more on Garchomp/Shaymin-S's banishment to OU than Scizor being able to kill it.
Gengar has still been in the top 10, or at least close to it, despite CB Scizor being able to dispose of it easily.
I think OU would be more interesting without Scizor just because people would have to find other ways to deal with so many threats. With that said Scizor shouldn't be ubers. I get tired of seeing him/her so much but he/she is not broken or centralizing. There are pokemon that do well alongside Scizor but it isn't necessary to use them at all you could have completely different ideas for a team.
Azelf / Leftovers or Life Orb / Timid / 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spd
Substitute / Nasty Plot / Flamethrower or Fire Blast / Psychic
Sub on switch if they go to Scizor you can flamethrower or go for a nasty plot if you predict a switch (ideal).
Azelf / Leftovers or Life Orb / Timid / 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spd
Substitute / Nasty Plot / Flamethrower or Fire Blast / Psychic
Sub on switch if they go to Scizor you can flamethrower or go for a nasty plot if you predict a switch (ideal).
Then Ice Sharders would be used more instead of Scizor(like how it was prior to Platinum). We can't make such predictions, because it isn't as simple of a connection as some may think.
Ice Shard users are not as "bulky" as scizor or rather, they are wide open for ubers' most used moves. Plus with Palkia everywhere in the UBER meta, ice shard will simply not do. As for the predictions, we can make as accurately sounding predictions as we can with enough info and careful analogies.
If you look at my previous post, you will notice you were mentioning Salamence and Latias. This seems to be more of an OU relative statement if you asked me, and bulk is not a revenge killing factor.
This community seems to love to get rid of really good Pokemon.
Some Pokemon, by virtue of their typing and stats, will just be easier to slot into the average team and thus will have above average usage.
The reason why certain other Pokemon run rampant in the current metagame is the lack of Garchomp.
Ban something else, and it will open the door for another Pokemon to become the OU of OU.
Some Pokemon, by virtue of their typing and stats, will just be easier to slot into the average team and thus will have above average usage.
The reason why certain other Pokemon run rampant in the current metagame is the lack of Garchomp.
Ban something else, and it will open the door for another Pokemon to become the OU of OU.
There's no precedent for "pokemon #1" having 150% the usage of "pokemon #2," so it's really not fair to assume "if we ban Scizor something else will have equally high usage." We don't ban "really good pokemon," we nominate suspects based on the Uber criteria and then follow a documented process to ban/unban pokemon. Scizor isn't just going to get banned for having high usage, and unless it's nominated as a suspect it's not going anywhere, although its insane usage is kinda unnerving
It is never a good idea to ignore bulk...for any type of role, such as a revenge killer in this case. I would never say bulky is not a revenge-killing factor but it's something that matter everywhere and any type of role. Of course salamence and latias were OU because I wasn't talking about Scizor faring against those two particular pokemons in the UBER. If you read my previous post you will notice that.
I don't remember saying something will have usage equal to Scizor if Scizor goes.
In any event, at the rate you guys are going OU is going to become a sort of UU and people will have to play Ubers to get a dynamic metagame.
Maybe we should just say anything speedy/wPriority that has a base 130 attack and can reliably Swords Dance is Uber and save a lot of time! </hyperbole>
Anyway, it's seems to me that this easy 'democratic' banning of Pokemon is an experiment bound to go awry.
How are you going to create an egalitarian tier of monsters that are all so strikingly different?
Some are going to have an advantage in any configuration/subset you come up with.
So, in my opinion, this complaining about Pokemon that are non-legendary being 'too good' just seems to go against the spirit of the game.
Pardon the political incorrectness, but I find it sissy too! Garchomp/Scizor used Swords Dance? Deal with it!
If you can't, you lose! Don't cry and try to get the game changed in your favour.
You said something else will be the "OU of OU," I inferred you meant "rising to a dominance akin to that of scizor." Regardless, there's no telling what would happen were Scizor named a suspect and removed, haven't we realized how hard serious metagame theorymon is by now?
If you've paid attention to the suspect testing process it's been anything but easy. Of course some will have an advantage, and that's why this is such a complicated and involved process. An "egalitarian" tier isn't what we're after, it's the "most pokemon without any one fitting any one of the 'Uber Criteria'"
Also, we're absolutely not trying to get the game changed in "our favor." We're trying to get the game changed in everyone's favor, hence the process. Really, a pokemon's status as "legendary" or "non-legendary" is totally arbitrary, too. You want to ban Entei to Ubers? How about Articuno? You want Wobbuffet unbanned?
We don't know what we're after because everyone voting according to what tickles their itch cannot achieve consensus on an overarching tier design.
Many will vote to ban Pokemon they do not use but that others are able to beat them with.
The metagame that results from voting according to likes/dislikes is not the aim of the votes but the consequence.
And of course, such a 'democratic' process has the potential to continue denuding OU of good Pokemon.
Only a few non-legendaries have been declared Uber.
I find this generally unfortunate but Wobbuffet is not a great loss since he is very one-dimensional.
The lack of a Pokemon as interesting as Garchomp is, however, a gross impoverishment of the standard game.
Any further moves in the direction of banning effective and thus widely used Pokemon
will be enough for me to conclude that many want to engineer the game more than they want to play it.
I hope there are some job openings at Gamefreak.
Things are different now than in DP with garchomp. The metagame now is pretty dominated by a few certain types(water, steel, dragon), and if garchomp was put back into ou then the usage statistics would probably be different than they were back then. Specifically latias usage would skyrocket, and scizor would probably go even higher.
Of course this is just my opinion that garchomp wouldn't over-centralize the metagame because it already is towards dragons and steels. It might exasperate the problem, though.
Of course this is just my opinion that garchomp wouldn't over-centralize the metagame because it already is towards dragons and steels. It might exasperate the problem, though.
Over-centralization has never been a parameter used to declare a Pokemon uber, and Garchomp wasn't banned because it was over-centralizing the metagame, but rather because it fullfilled the uber offensive characteristic (and it still does imo):
Scizor is an excellent Pokemon, but has several counters and checks, so please don't start impossible comparisons.
You know Latias got unbanned and Manaphy has a chance of going the same route too, right.
This just shows you know naught about the Suspect Process at all. People have to justify their votes, and Jumpman/Aeolus/Doug have access to all the Suspect matches' data, so they know if you at least used the damn pokémon and/or played against it.
Wobbuffet used Encore! Wobbuffet used Tickle!
Do you want Game Freak to give Wobbuffet Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, Judgment, Earthquake and Outrage for having him banned on the Support Characteristic? Is that it ?_?
Again, Latias got unbanned.
Game Freak doesn't make tiers, we do. Personally, if I could work at Game Freak, Garchomp would be the least important matter in my mind. I'd be more interested in convincing my fellow workers that we should have eight pokémon slots per team in 5th Gen...
(can you hear me, GF?)
Well, yes, everybody knows that. My point is, Hippopotas in UU is played quite differently to Hippowdon in OU, and the statistics support my observations. Hippopotas in UU is not 'Hippowdon-lite', like people thought it would be.
I am aware of the process but I do not consider it bullet-proof of even entirely desirable.
These uber characteristics are better than nothing but they are still rather subjective.
And indeed, I highly controversial ban on narrow margins is indicative of anything but consensus.
Yes.
I don't know if that is more or less screwed up. ;)
No gamefreak make Pokemon and we decide which ones we wish didn't exist (Uber is not a tier, it's a banlist).
I guess it would be far more efficient to be in control of what was made in the first place!
Anyway, I've really taken a step back from what you guys are doing here.
There are many good things about the community but the propensity to axe parts of the game is not one of them, IMHO.
It's interesting that Rhydon was used less than Golem in UU last month! I'd choose Rhydon anyday, personally. Explosion isn't enough for me to use Golem.
This month, however, we get to use Rhyperior! :)
This month, however, we get to use Rhyperior! :)
good thing stage 3 was actually just modified to ensure people like you wouldn't have this silly recurring argument
thanks for your compelling opinion
go write a letter to gamefreak instead of complaining here then
nobody who has any say in the process axes anything without following the only process we've tried to put in place. not that this would please someone who is inherently indifferent on whether latias in ou—perhaps the most tangible symbol that our community is willing to undo bans after given a way to fairly reevaluate pre-existing ones—is a good or bad thing. go post your pessimism in some other forum
Meh, I don't care too much for this, but how about everyone stops echoing each other and saying the exact same things you've been saying for 3 pages.
I think we all get that Scizor is a good pokemon, checks many Pokemon, and that half of you declare it Uber for some reason or another. Just stop posting the exact same things about it, and either have a discussion that isn't just random opinions or stop talking about it.
Also thanks for stats Doug, if I may refer to you as such.
I think we all get that Scizor is a good pokemon, checks many Pokemon, and that half of you declare it Uber for some reason or another. Just stop posting the exact same things about it, and either have a discussion that isn't just random opinions or stop talking about it.
Also thanks for stats Doug, if I may refer to you as such.
Wait, so Colin's polls do apply to the next round? Is Garchomp going to be in the next round, then?