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Suspect Test Process Stage Three - Version 2.0!
- Thread starter Aeolus
- Start date
Why wouldn't you? Garchomp's tier classification is the most controversial of any Pokemon this gen. Two of its better checks were just removed as you say. Why wouldn't people jump to (ab)use it? To people who truly believe it to be uber, this may be their last chance to use Garchomp in an OU-like environment. Neither Manaphy nor Latias have nearly the amount of fanboys and anti-fanboys. Ranting about Garchomp usage less than 24 hours after the suspect ladder has been up is a bit much imo.
That is what you should've expected on the Suspect ladder.
The sole purpose of the suspect ladder is so that the suspects, keep in mind, can be tested. Imagine the ladder without garchomp and without many players having experiences with Garchomp, it would be hard to count on their opinions and thoughts once the time comes to vote whether the pokemon is UBER or not.
The reason as to why Garchomp is more often used than the other suspects is because it is the most controversial one of all, whether it be for its popularity or effectiveness in the meta. I actually see this as a good thing as more people will be, again, experienced enough with Chomp to hopefully make the "right" decision in the end.
The sole purpose of the suspect ladder is so that the suspects, keep in mind, can be tested. Imagine the ladder without garchomp and without many players having experiences with Garchomp, it would be hard to count on their opinions and thoughts once the time comes to vote whether the pokemon is UBER or not.
The reason as to why Garchomp is more often used than the other suspects is because it is the most controversial one of all, whether it be for its popularity or effectiveness in the meta. I actually see this as a good thing as more people will be, again, experienced enough with Chomp to hopefully make the "right" decision in the end.
You guys, I stated that I expected Centralisation. I mean, the stats placed him at 60%. However near 100%? Am I not allowed to voice my opinion on the effects that Garchomp's over-useage is having on us finding out if Manaphy is broken, without having my head bitten off?
The only reason I would even consider giving Garchomp the title controversial was because it was OU in the first place, unlike every other suspect. In other words, the bulk of the community have experiance with it. In addittion, it is not banned by Nintendo in things like that Battle Tower, like most Ubers are. This again, leads to more people moaning about why Garchomp is Uber.
Just a little annoyed at how I voice my observations and opinions on the damageing effect this is having on Manaphy, making it possibly appear less broken than it is, and 4 people complain at me.
There's a reason quite a lot of people voted 'Abstain' for Manaphy in the suspect vote.
The only reason I would even consider giving Garchomp the title controversial was because it was OU in the first place, unlike every other suspect. In other words, the bulk of the community have experiance with it. In addittion, it is not banned by Nintendo in things like that Battle Tower, like most Ubers are. This again, leads to more people moaning about why Garchomp is Uber.
Just a little annoyed at how I voice my observations and opinions on the damageing effect this is having on Manaphy, making it possibly appear less broken than it is, and 4 people complain at me.
There's a reason quite a lot of people voted 'Abstain' for Manaphy in the suspect vote.
Okay I'm calling bs on this one. In order to use Sandstream with Garchomp, you have to use Hippowdon or Tyranitar. Not only do neither of these pokemon match up well against Manaphy, they're both actually pretty much countered by it. And this is just Manaphy—if we're talking about supporting Manaphy, we're talking about teams that likely have Kingdra, and Vaporeon, and Starmie, all of which check both Hippo and Tyra at the very least.
I'm pretty sure the fact that you're not seeing Manaphy much is the reason you haven't seen this play out. I highly doubt Manaphy itself is afraid of Garchomp—it's not a counter, but it's definitely more of a threat to Garchomp than Garchomp is to it.
Finally, most people didn't say that Hydration Rest is what made Manaphy uber. It has a lot more to do with Tail Glow and a combination of attacks that's resisted by no pokemon in OU, coming off of a naturally bulky pokemon that naturally resists the most popular priority in the game. Throw Loki's Acid Armor idea into the mix and you start to see why it was so versatile in Stage 1.
If Garchomp is indeed hampering Manaphy, then a case can be made for Manaphy in the future. Remember that the suspect ladder has only just gone up, so it could be a while before people shift toward abusing Manaphy over Garchomp (if they do). Finally, it's not like the Sandstorm use is THAT much more prevalent than in normal OU. According to the Sept. stats, Tyranitar was number 6 at 17.6%, and it's usage will surely remain steady if Latias remains OU (which is extremely likely). Manaphy will be playing in a Sand-based metagame anyways, though admittedly to a lesser extent.
I laddered for about fifteen matches today, and, I must say, Garchomp was in every single one of them. I faced a Manaphy once. Most of them we're Choiced, yet I saw a couple of SD Chomps in the mix. People are getting clever and using strategies like DD Mence + Mamoswine or DD Mence + Scarf Latias. Pretty interesting stuff. Looking forward to this!
From what I've experienced thus far, Magnezone is a must if you're running SD Garhcomp. It single-handedly counters Garchomp's biggest threats such as Bronzong, Skarmory, Scizor and Choice Scarf Jirachi.
Hey guys, I wanted to enter the suspect test but I'm pretty clueless. However, I really want to be a suspect voter.
so, I just go to the suspect ladder with the suspect on my team and play? I've tried but there're aren't a lot of people on.
Also, can someone guide me to the formula that determines the cut-off of being a suspect voter?
so, I just go to the suspect ladder with the suspect on my team and play? I've tried but there're aren't a lot of people on.
Also, can someone guide me to the formula that determines the cut-off of being a suspect voter?
I have noticed this. SD Garchomp with Magnezone support has been devestating to face in the 3 or so battles I came across the combination, and suddenly Garchomp's biggest threats are eliminated.
...not even gonna bother saying anything about Garchomp. Sigh. -_-
What's the argument for Latios being uber? The 110 SpA on Latias and Salamence are so close to Uber territory that Latios' extra +20 is the breaking point, despite having no versatility in other areas like the former two? Latias has buttloads of good support options and sets up more easily, Salamence is arguably a more dangerous wallbreaker and sweeper because it's a better mixed attacker and DDer. I'm absolutely not convinced that Latios being ~12.5% stronger in the one area it actually competes in, donning Scarf/Specs and just blasting shit, makes it uber. It's not even as good as its sister overall, how is an inferior pokemon more uber than a better one?
What's the argument for Latios being uber? The 110 SpA on Latias and Salamence are so close to Uber territory that Latios' extra +20 is the breaking point, despite having no versatility in other areas like the former two? Latias has buttloads of good support options and sets up more easily, Salamence is arguably a more dangerous wallbreaker and sweeper because it's a better mixed attacker and DDer. I'm absolutely not convinced that Latios being ~12.5% stronger in the one area it actually competes in, donning Scarf/Specs and just blasting shit, makes it uber. It's not even as good as its sister overall, how is an inferior pokemon more uber than a better one?
Apparently the rest of the community is.
I don't know what you're even saying here. Do you actually think Latias and Salamence are Uber, or are you just trying to cling the past by sparking a discussion which no longer has any relevance to the Suspect Test process or this thread? I just don't see how you're saying anything about Latias here by claiming that "it's better than an Uber Pokemon that I don't actually believe is Uber."
Base 130 offence and 100+ speed = Uber especially if you're a dragon ;)
Mr.E if you looked at my vote in the Stage 3 thread, instead of randomly quoting my post, you'd have seen that I voted Latios OU, and I did it just for the reasons you wrote above.
Oversimplifying it, IMO. Because Salamence arguably has the better 130+ stat, since there isn't an end-all wall like Blissey to wall it.
In addition to the extra speed, Latios doesn't carry a stealth rock weakness, doesn't have a 4x weakness, has the means to remove its biggest threats (pursuiters are ruined by Specs Surf or Thunderbolt), and can Trick Blissey. To top it all off, it has just the right attack stat to pull off a mixed set decently, thanks to its higher speed.
Seeing garchomp on every team is a lot different than garchomp being on every team. You should know this. I've seen manaphy and garchomp centered teams. I think I have had more trouble with manaphy than garchomp, he's certainly not invincible. If he does get voted ubers I would probably pin the blame on sand veil. I need to play more though, as does everyone else at this point.
for latios I think a big concern is latias+latios teams. I can imagine those would be very difficult to beat, especially if one is carrying hp fire.
for latios I think a big concern is latias+latios teams. I can imagine those would be very difficult to beat, especially if one is carrying hp fire.
So far, I haven't found any of the suspects a problem to deal with. Latias has probably been the hardest to deal with, even though a lot of people seem to be saying Garchomp...
In the hour and a half (ish) I played, Latias was constantly causing me the most trouble. It can just come in on so much and fire off Life Orb Draco Meteors amazingly well (Tyranitar takes a ton with SR, and Scizor is often relied on to lots of other jobs). I have even resorted to changing my Heatran to Passho Berry to take a Surf and Dragon Pulse / Explode (it works, especially when it's so easy to bluff Scarf). Despite the multitude of Garchomp I have so far faced, a small amount have managed to set up a Swords Dance (Choice Scarf doesn't seem to be doing too great at the moment), and when they do I can just revenge kill it. Most people are saving them for late game after spending the game eliminating their counters...and at the point I find I can make a sacrifice to revenge kill it much easier. Manaphy has also caused little trouble...even though on paper my team looks weak to it. Defensive Manaphy aren't able to do enough detrimental damage in time, and offensive Manaphy don't have the defenses and need to catch things on the switch instead (thus often missing the KO).
I'll see how it develops because it's very early days, but so far, I don't have a huge problem with anything, although Latias is a bit of nuisance.
In the hour and a half (ish) I played, Latias was constantly causing me the most trouble. It can just come in on so much and fire off Life Orb Draco Meteors amazingly well (Tyranitar takes a ton with SR, and Scizor is often relied on to lots of other jobs). I have even resorted to changing my Heatran to Passho Berry to take a Surf and Dragon Pulse / Explode (it works, especially when it's so easy to bluff Scarf). Despite the multitude of Garchomp I have so far faced, a small amount have managed to set up a Swords Dance (Choice Scarf doesn't seem to be doing too great at the moment), and when they do I can just revenge kill it. Most people are saving them for late game after spending the game eliminating their counters...and at the point I find I can make a sacrifice to revenge kill it much easier. Manaphy has also caused little trouble...even though on paper my team looks weak to it. Defensive Manaphy aren't able to do enough detrimental damage in time, and offensive Manaphy don't have the defenses and need to catch things on the switch instead (thus often missing the KO).
I'll see how it develops because it's very early days, but so far, I don't have a huge problem with anything, although Latias is a bit of nuisance.
I quoted your post, Haunter, because you bought up Latios and Latias. Nowhere did I indict you for arguing contrary to the point I made.
Apparently [most of] the rest of the community is retarded.
Quite the contrary to your question, Latios is completely non-worthy of Uber status. It's seemingly too late to make an impact on the suspect process now but that doesn't mean people can't still be further educated or the suspect process can't change again.
Apparently [most of] the rest of the community is retarded.
Quite the contrary to your question, Latios is completely non-worthy of Uber status. It's seemingly too late to make an impact on the suspect process now but that doesn't mean people can't still be further educated or the suspect process can't change again.
I said AND: Salamence has Base 100 speed!
As of now, what I posted is essentially a sufficient condition for a Pokemon to be Uber based on the voting trends.
(as long as the Pokemon also has a little bulk)
Ok, I should have included the no Stealth Rock weakness part too. :)
The rest mostly follows from the original quantitative Uber characteristic.
Anyway, I don't have a strong opinion on Latios and I was being a bit facetious but I'm not too far off!
It seems that many have established Salamence as the closest to Uber that OU can get.
So anything that's fearsome and can't be handled quite like Salamence gets a dirty look.
Which is why comparable offence (to Salamence), superior speed and a lack of Stealth Rock weakness have always featured so strongly in the reasons offered.
These are just my working theories:
The hyper-metagame analysis.
What makes you right and the majority wrong? Tiering is a subjective process.
EDIT: @Twash: Is Latias better in stage 3-2 than it was in OU in your opinion? If so, why?
I have been playing around with a rain team on the ladder, and have found Tail Glow Hydrorest Manaphy to be surprisingly underwhelming. Being outrun by Garchomp hurts, and so does all of the Latias, with a surprising number having T-bolt. That and the fact that you waste almost half of your rain setting up... I see why Manaphy's use on rain teams wasn't a factor in pushing it to Uber in the first place.
this is a terrible argument, kyogre would also make a good counter to specially based teams