Not entirelly sure, but I believe deviation plays a factor now in leaderboard listings. Therefore, it may be a few more days before we can even get a top 20. I could be wrong about that, though, so don't hold me to it.
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Suspect Test Process Stage Three - Version 2.0!
- Thread starter Aeolus
- Start date
Yeah you need a deviation below 100 to appear in the leaderboard.
In other news I have seen an insane amount of dual screen azelf leads and I laugh every time I think of this because those games are always decided by a speed tie.
In other news I have seen an insane amount of dual screen azelf leads and I laugh every time I think of this because those games are always decided by a speed tie.
Undefeated so far using a team I threw together in about 2 minutes. My success has contributed 100% to ScarfChomp. He can knock off 2-3 Pokemon a match, I forgot how amazing of a revenge killer Chomp is.
Edit: Manaphy hasn't shown me anything, it always seems to be deadweight in my opponents teams.
Edit: Manaphy hasn't shown me anything, it always seems to be deadweight in my opponents teams.
Agreeing with everyone who's said ScarfChomp is amazing, he really saves games...by far the best revenge killer in the game, Outrage from 359 atk / 499 speed is just stupid good
Posted this in SQSA, but I figured that I would get a better response here...
I want to make sure I fully understand the new procedure for stage 3:
If at anytime a suspect receives enough votes to equal 66% of the voting pool, it's instantly uber. If a suspect is voted 50%+1 uber twice in a row, it becomes uber.
If garchomp is voted uber in the next round while manaphy and latias are voted ou again, does this mean that a metagame with just manaphy and latias as suspects will be tested? If not, how do we know that manaphy and latias are not uber in that metagame?
If all but one suspect are voted uber, will there be another round of stage 3 with just that suspect, or will we go by the stage 2 results?
Will stage 3 end if in a particular round all remaining suspects are voted ou? Is this the only way stage 3 can end?
My understanding is that stage 3 can theoretically go on forever if two suspects are alternately voted ou and uber. Is this true?
Thanks to anyone who answers!
I want to make sure I fully understand the new procedure for stage 3:
If at anytime a suspect receives enough votes to equal 66% of the voting pool, it's instantly uber. If a suspect is voted 50%+1 uber twice in a row, it becomes uber.
If garchomp is voted uber in the next round while manaphy and latias are voted ou again, does this mean that a metagame with just manaphy and latias as suspects will be tested? If not, how do we know that manaphy and latias are not uber in that metagame?
If all but one suspect are voted uber, will there be another round of stage 3 with just that suspect, or will we go by the stage 2 results?
Will stage 3 end if in a particular round all remaining suspects are voted ou? Is this the only way stage 3 can end?
My understanding is that stage 3 can theoretically go on forever if two suspects are alternately voted ou and uber. Is this true?
Thanks to anyone who answers!
Since I started playing Pokemon again when Platinum came out, this has been my first OU experience with Manaphy and Garchomp.
From the first few battles I have done, the Manaphy I have encountered have been really underwhelming. Personally, I have a harder time dealing with Suicune than Manaphy, but I haven't encountered any Rain-Hydration-Rest ones yet so my opinion may change.
The Manaphy I have been using is a Calm 252 HP / 212 SDef / 44 Spe, with Tail Glow/Surf/Ice Beam/Energy Ball. It usually catches its switch-ins off guard, such as Latias and Zapdos. I can usually get a kill or two from Manaphy. However, with Garchomp on practically every team, Manaphy finds it difficult to sweep.
Speaking of Garchomp, my first impressions of it is that it's incredibly unpredictable (this might just be because I've never encountered them before today). I've seen so many different sets, and each of them are equally deadly. However, it's not really Garchomp's movepool, it's the ability to bluff so many items that really caught me off guard. The two in particular were Haban Berry and Choice Scarf. Haban Berry curb stomps Latias (which a lot of people seem to think will tame Garchomp in OU) and ScarfChomp is such a deadly revenge killer. Immunity to Thunder Wave and Stealth Rock resistance means it can switch in and out quite easily. It basically forces you to run a faster scarfer or hope it gets locked into Outrage. Even CB Scizor's BP does 55% max to it.
I have no troubles with Latias. I think she should stay OU. She has already proven to be good, but not ridiculously broken.
From the first few battles I have done, the Manaphy I have encountered have been really underwhelming. Personally, I have a harder time dealing with Suicune than Manaphy, but I haven't encountered any Rain-Hydration-Rest ones yet so my opinion may change.
The Manaphy I have been using is a Calm 252 HP / 212 SDef / 44 Spe, with Tail Glow/Surf/Ice Beam/Energy Ball. It usually catches its switch-ins off guard, such as Latias and Zapdos. I can usually get a kill or two from Manaphy. However, with Garchomp on practically every team, Manaphy finds it difficult to sweep.
Speaking of Garchomp, my first impressions of it is that it's incredibly unpredictable (this might just be because I've never encountered them before today). I've seen so many different sets, and each of them are equally deadly. However, it's not really Garchomp's movepool, it's the ability to bluff so many items that really caught me off guard. The two in particular were Haban Berry and Choice Scarf. Haban Berry curb stomps Latias (which a lot of people seem to think will tame Garchomp in OU) and ScarfChomp is such a deadly revenge killer. Immunity to Thunder Wave and Stealth Rock resistance means it can switch in and out quite easily. It basically forces you to run a faster scarfer or hope it gets locked into Outrage. Even CB Scizor's BP does 55% max to it.
I have no troubles with Latias. I think she should stay OU. She has already proven to be good, but not ridiculously broken.
I don't know how I would ever come to the point of saying this, but IMO Manaphy is outclassed by Calm Mind + 3 attack Suicune. Suicune is a beast, it survived a +2 Outrage from Garchomp and OHKO'd back with Ice Beam. Plus, it's way more bulky, and just helps more in general.
With Manaphy, HydraRest is downright unreliable - sandstorm is EVERYWHERE. Even more, Suicune has better stats where it matters:
Code:
Stat | Cune| Mana
HP | 100 | 100
Atk | 75 | 100
Def | 115 | 100
SpA | 90 | 100
SpD | 115 | 100
Spe | 85 | 100HP is same. Atk is useless. Def and SDef Suicune is better. SpA Suicune is down by 10 points, but that doesn't make a difference where just about everything is weak to their moves. Speed also is somewhat important but doesn't really matter, as 100 is beat by Garchomp anyway. 85 is still decent, but Manaphy isn't doing very good with 100 base.
Latias, I haven't used yet but I think it'll be a decent check (not counter, it can't switch in on anything but a choiced EQ) to Garchomp if Chomp switches in. ScarfLatias will probably prove itself to me once again, as it did during the part between the Stage 3 tests.
Garchomp is downright amazing. It rips through teams, and the amount of choiced Pokemon running around is stupid - give SD Garchomp a free setup, SubSalac (wtf) chomp a free Sub or SD, give ScarfChomp a free switchin. -_- And then there's the other sets people are using.
So yeah, Manaphy seems like crap to me; Latias I'm unsure; Garchomp is epic.
ScarfChomp, like the others have said, is being very good right now but I don't understand why others see Manaphy as so underwhelming. It always seems to me like it takes hits like a champ and easily set up a Tail Glow, I'll test it more because I really think it's a monster.
+6 Energy Ball 2HKO's +3 Suicune IIRC. +3 HP Electric OHKO's Manaphy.
They Tail Glow up while I CM up. After 3 boosts each, I take its hits but it can't take mine - and now they have to face a +3 Suicune.
So far, most teams appear to have a glaring weakness to Substitute Magnezone. People are going to have to find a way other than Scizor to take down Garchomp.
I really don't see why CB Weavile isn't being used more often(from what I've seen). CB Ice Punch OHKOs Yache Chomp, Ice Shard OHKOs ScarfChomp locked into Outrage. He can play the Pursuit/Ice Punch game with Latias, and Ice Punch still does farely good damage to Scizor(if you predict correctly, or come in on Tyranitar/Heatran, you can Low Kick it as well).
The thing is, though, Scizor so often accompanies Garchomp, so using Weavile just to CHECK (not counter) Garchomp is often not worth it.
CB Weavile's Low Kick does 44%-53% to Scizor. If you predict correctly, Scizor can only switch in to Weavile safely once.
The main problem with Weavile is that nasty SR weakness. It can't keep switching in constantly. Despite it being one of the best Garchomp/Latias checks, SR really hampers it. Though Low Kick is a very nice new toy for it xD.
The main problem with Weavile is that nasty SR weakness. It can't keep switching in constantly. Despite it being one of the best Garchomp/Latias checks, SR really hampers it. Though Low Kick is a very nice new toy for it xD.
I think his reasoning is that apparently(by votes) latias is clearly ou, and latios is clearly uber despite there being an insignificant difference between the two. To me either they are all uber, or they are all ou(mence/chomp included). though it doesn't matter what I think unless I make it onto the leaderboard. I'm up to 1300 cre now in suspects, and garchomp+manaphy have been pretty unimpressive on my team so far. I've gone maybe 15-1 tonight neither of them have been very much help to my team really. All of my sweeps(running HO) have been with gyrados, empoleon, or celebi(!).
I think Latias is actually probably worse right now than in OU (I still stand by my previous post). Scarf Garchomp is popular, as is the ever dominant Scizor/Tyranitar, which detracts from Latias' ability (to an extent). However, I find that Latias is easily doing over 60%+ to Scizor, and generally 2HKOing Tyranitar with Stealth Rock before it dies, which I find pretty damn amazing. I myself, am finding that I will often need to sacrifice a Pokemon to get my Scizor in safely to use Pursuit. While all my opponents seem to be running a couple of Choice Scarfers, Latias can come in quite often and Recover/spam Draco Meteor pretty often. The pure strength of Latias seems very high..moreso than Garchomp, who I am having no real problem dealing with so far.
I've got a concern. Heart swap, manaphy's signature move is currently banned on the ladder. This move is very useful on manaphy despite initial impressions, acting as a phazing move but better. This move should/could have a huge impact on manaphy's status in the tiers, but since it's banned I can't say that any of this manaphy testing would really be considered accurate without the ability to use heart swap. Pretty much, I really think heart swap needs to be fixed for this test, as it is part of what could potentially make manaphy uber. Thoughts?
I think that heart swap uses would be really situational. It may help beating some CM Suicune and Latias 1 vs 1, or even an opposing Manaphy, but honestly I wouldn't waste a moveslot for it. Manaphy already seems to suffer from the moveslot syndrome as between: substitute, calm mind\tail glow, surf, ice beam, energy ball and hidden power electric it's hard to choose which of these move not to use.
I'm using sub\tail glow\surf\hidden power electric with decent success, as I have a reliable way to eliminate Latias. Manaphy is doing pretty well for me, though it rarely sweeps more than 2 Pokemon on my opponent's team. I think that its "only" 100 base speed is what makes me stay on the fence about Manaphy's tiering. It's extremely good at breaking stall teams and slow teams in general, but it's almost a dead weight against fast, offensive teams.
I'm using sub\tail glow\surf\hidden power electric with decent success, as I have a reliable way to eliminate Latias. Manaphy is doing pretty well for me, though it rarely sweeps more than 2 Pokemon on my opponent's team. I think that its "only" 100 base speed is what makes me stay on the fence about Manaphy's tiering. It's extremely good at breaking stall teams and slow teams in general, but it's almost a dead weight against fast, offensive teams.
I used Heart swap Manaphy very effectively on a stall team on the first Manaphy suspect test. it helped fill many holes in my teams stopping pokemon that set up in their tracks and just generally cleaning up after residual spikes damage, even without stealing some boosts.
Well, Garchomp is on every team, I haven't faced one without it that I can remember, which is to be expected. The most controversial Pokémon is bound to get used the most, though, so everyone has to expect it anyway. This is a very early judgement, but having used Garchomp a lot, I just feel that it falls into a similar category as Scizor. It's a great Pokémon and easy to fit on your team, but I wouldn't really judge it Uber. Some people's opinion's will differ and that's fine, because I can see both sides of the 'argument'.
I just lost four battles in a row to 'Sand Veil hax', and while that is incredibly annoying and frustrating to let alone witness, never mind actually be on the end of, I can still put up with it because that's all it is, an annoyance. I'm not sure I can support an argument of Sand Veil making Garchomp 'broken' - I hate to use that word.
Manaphy has been underwhelming so far, it's not given me trouble yet, and I wouldn't say I have a team that is built with Manaphy in mind. I just have three Pokémon that are faster than it, and a priority move. So it never seems to worry me. Latias is there as one of the better checks to Garchomp, so it might be seeing a little more usage than it does in standard.. but yeah, we know about Latias really.
I just lost four battles in a row to 'Sand Veil hax', and while that is incredibly annoying and frustrating to let alone witness, never mind actually be on the end of, I can still put up with it because that's all it is, an annoyance. I'm not sure I can support an argument of Sand Veil making Garchomp 'broken' - I hate to use that word.
Manaphy has been underwhelming so far, it's not given me trouble yet, and I wouldn't say I have a team that is built with Manaphy in mind. I just have three Pokémon that are faster than it, and a priority move. So it never seems to worry me. Latias is there as one of the better checks to Garchomp, so it might be seeing a little more usage than it does in standard.. but yeah, we know about Latias really.
I've played about fifteen games on Suspect this morning, and here are my impressions.
Manaphy is underwhelming at the moment. I've tried a couple sets in Calm Mind/Rest/Rain Dance/Surf (with Toxic Spikes down to help with Water Absorbers), and the three attack+Tail Glow set. The Resting set is really tough to pull off successfully, given that Sand Stream is everywhere. A good player can predict when Manaphy is about to rest, and ruin everything. (surprisingly, I have yet to see Abomasnow trying to counter it) With three attacks, Manaphy has been able to take out a couple more Pokemon, but I don't see it as too powerful. Just a really decent Water type.
Garchomp has been extremely successfully for me. I've only used SubSalac and SubPowder, but they both work fantastically. I found that Brightpowder, and Sand Veil were actually doing more for me than Salac (sometimes I was sweeping without the boost).. and I had at least a handful of instances where something like a Latias trying to revenge me missed with Dragon Pulse, and ate an Outrage. Magnezone usage should rise with Garchomp; he's been working wonders with him, trapping those Skarmory's and Bronzong to clear the path. I don't know if I consider him uber, or not.. he's the one I'm on the fence about.
Latias has been Latias. She functions well as a revenge killer to Garchomp, and she's basically impossible for anything aside from Blissey to switch into. With the usage of Tyranitar rising, and Scizor prehapes even more prevalent than Standard, she is being revenge killed more than usual. I'd say Latias will stay OU.
Manaphy is underwhelming at the moment. I've tried a couple sets in Calm Mind/Rest/Rain Dance/Surf (with Toxic Spikes down to help with Water Absorbers), and the three attack+Tail Glow set. The Resting set is really tough to pull off successfully, given that Sand Stream is everywhere. A good player can predict when Manaphy is about to rest, and ruin everything. (surprisingly, I have yet to see Abomasnow trying to counter it) With three attacks, Manaphy has been able to take out a couple more Pokemon, but I don't see it as too powerful. Just a really decent Water type.
Garchomp has been extremely successfully for me. I've only used SubSalac and SubPowder, but they both work fantastically. I found that Brightpowder, and Sand Veil were actually doing more for me than Salac (sometimes I was sweeping without the boost).. and I had at least a handful of instances where something like a Latias trying to revenge me missed with Dragon Pulse, and ate an Outrage. Magnezone usage should rise with Garchomp; he's been working wonders with him, trapping those Skarmory's and Bronzong to clear the path. I don't know if I consider him uber, or not.. he's the one I'm on the fence about.
Latias has been Latias. She functions well as a revenge killer to Garchomp, and she's basically impossible for anything aside from Blissey to switch into. With the usage of Tyranitar rising, and Scizor prehapes even more prevalent than Standard, she is being revenge killed more than usual. I'd say Latias will stay OU.
More games played today.
STILL no battle without Garchomp. Thankfully, Chomp is not the cause of my demise, as I have found a counter capable to taking out everything except an already set-up Yache Intact Chomp. However, said counter is very gimmicky, and requires some team support to remove rocks. Gimmicks should not have to be used to safely counter something. This said Gimmick is NU. This Gimmick is Articuno, which people go LOL when they see, then go 0_o when it beats +2 non Yache Chomp.
Today, every single team with Garchomp has Magnezone with it. Most of those teams also carry Brongzong, who happens to be about the one thing which can stop Garchomp 100% of the time. 3 slots per team centralised around Garchomp.
In fact, at least 3 of the teams I fought today were:
SR Lead (Or Tyranitar), Garchomp, Manaphy (Shockingly Good Partner, considering Ice Beam scares Dragons, and Ice Beams don't phaze him), Magnezone, Brongzong, Latias, Other (Sandstorm user often, if not the lead).
Latias is annoying, but not Uber. Manaphy is more troublesome. That said, because everyone's devoted to countering Garchomp, Manapahy is actually left wide open. I've seen a grand total of 0 Blisseys, despite them stopping 2 suspects cold. Reason, Garchomp.
Manaphy, I'm actually edgeing towards Uber. It's proving itself as a very good water type as it is. However, because of Sandstorm being omnipresent, we are not seeing Manaphy at it's full potentual. Hydrarest is not viable with every team running Tyranitar or Hippowdon. Meanwhile, Manaphy is still capable of sweeping. It's certainly better than Celebi and Jirachi.
Garchomp, as you probobly summaried from the 'Zone to help Chomp, Sandstream, Chomp, and Bronzong to best Chomp on every team' thing before, is Uber. It's in a whole other class to Manaphy and Latias. Usually, when a pokemon fares well in Ubers, especially when it's weak to a common attacking type there (x4 to Ice, x2 to Dragon), and it's stats are not as large as other Ubers, yet it is still highly used and sucessful, that's usually a sign of being Uber. When it's sweeping in a OU-like metagame prepared for it, that's a sign of Uberness.
STILL no battle without Garchomp. Thankfully, Chomp is not the cause of my demise, as I have found a counter capable to taking out everything except an already set-up Yache Intact Chomp. However, said counter is very gimmicky, and requires some team support to remove rocks. Gimmicks should not have to be used to safely counter something. This said Gimmick is NU. This Gimmick is Articuno, which people go LOL when they see, then go 0_o when it beats +2 non Yache Chomp.
Today, every single team with Garchomp has Magnezone with it. Most of those teams also carry Brongzong, who happens to be about the one thing which can stop Garchomp 100% of the time. 3 slots per team centralised around Garchomp.
In fact, at least 3 of the teams I fought today were:
SR Lead (Or Tyranitar), Garchomp, Manaphy (Shockingly Good Partner, considering Ice Beam scares Dragons, and Ice Beams don't phaze him), Magnezone, Brongzong, Latias, Other (Sandstorm user often, if not the lead).
Latias is annoying, but not Uber. Manaphy is more troublesome. That said, because everyone's devoted to countering Garchomp, Manapahy is actually left wide open. I've seen a grand total of 0 Blisseys, despite them stopping 2 suspects cold. Reason, Garchomp.
Manaphy, I'm actually edgeing towards Uber. It's proving itself as a very good water type as it is. However, because of Sandstorm being omnipresent, we are not seeing Manaphy at it's full potentual. Hydrarest is not viable with every team running Tyranitar or Hippowdon. Meanwhile, Manaphy is still capable of sweeping. It's certainly better than Celebi and Jirachi.
Garchomp, as you probobly summaried from the 'Zone to help Chomp, Sandstream, Chomp, and Bronzong to best Chomp on every team' thing before, is Uber. It's in a whole other class to Manaphy and Latias. Usually, when a pokemon fares well in Ubers, especially when it's weak to a common attacking type there (x4 to Ice, x2 to Dragon), and it's stats are not as large as other Ubers, yet it is still highly used and sucessful, that's usually a sign of being Uber. When it's sweeping in a OU-like metagame prepared for it, that's a sign of Uberness.
Garchomp isn't sweeping, and if it is sweeping, it's a sure sign you're playing badly. Garchomp certainly shouldn't be considered Uber under the Offensive characteric, as if you pack the right Pokemon you shouldn't really be losing more than one Pokemon per match to a sweeper Garchomp. Garchomp's real strength is as a revenge killer.