np: UU - The Boys Are Back in Town

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Ness, you're completely twisting my words. I said bring in something like Swellow as it SDs, and go for the kill. Once it's SD'd, it almost never switches out.

Personally, none of my teams have a problem with Gallade, and it can only get one kill max. Rhyperior isn't an issue, either.

EDIT: HP Grass Krow is a beast. Rapes Rhyperior all the way back to RBY. Gets rid of mindgames on Kabutops in rain, and beats Kabutops and Omastar, and probably OHKOs Quagsire too. Very good.
 
031ap said:
Ness, you're completely twisting my words. I said bring in something like Swellow as it SDs, and go for the kill. Once it's SD'd, it almost never switches out.
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Your acting like the player HAS to swords dance in order to be a threat when in all actuality it can just as easily attack costing you the swellow.
 
First and for most, I want to qoute myself...

Right, because entry hazards are far from common and to difficult to setup and keep up. I see your point. Yes, it goes both ways but lets not fall into that petty arguement.
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Ugh... Lets think for a moment. If my team carries Moltress, Scyther,... anything SR weak do you believe that I am going to allow SR to be up? I'll have to contradict myself here but spinning away entry hazards gets easier if the team you play against doesn't heavily rely on them. Now if you want I could say... alright each side has the maximum level of entry hazards. Sure that limits some of the counters but that also increases probable counters at lower speeds... Azumarril for example.

None of the Pokemon you listed can actually force Gallade out and be more of a threat than Gallade is.
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Well, if Gallade is that much of a problem than people might have to change their standard sets a little... all of my calcs are from +speed Nature Attackers. So a lot of them can go +Attack nature to really hurt Gallade. and Ambipom might be prompted to use Double Hit. This is not a full list of probable checks I skipped over a handful and didn't even look over NU/ NFE Tier.

There is just to much "grey area". Wtf is happening when Gallade is SD'ing? "Depends on who is in." Well hell, why not attack/cripple/phase the dude and move on? Gallade takes any prior damage PLUS LO recoil his viable counter/ check rate shoots up. If he uses Close Combat, his counter rate goes up. I'm sure these are facts that you want to ignore and shove aside.

Destroy things with Gallade
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At most I've ever lost to Gallade was 2 Pokemon and that was back when they re-added these guys and I had no idea about it. If you get swept so readilly by Gallade than re-consider your team's teammates.

Off topic,...

This kind of reminds me of a battle I had the other day. I was using my SpikeStacking team. I got up 2 layers of spikes and SR in next to no time. I send in Raikou, Substitute up, and begin phasing. After the third Roar the guy calls me a Noob. Of course I was prompted to ask.. "why?" He replies, "All you use is 2 moves, it takes no skill." I jumped into defense... "Why is this my fault? Is it not your fault for not carrying a Taunter? Is it my fault for you not using a Rapid Spinner? How exactly am I the noob in this situation?"
 
Exclamation Point said:
First and for most, I want to qoute myself...


Ugh... Lets think for a moment. If my team carries Moltress, Scyther,... anything SR weak do you believe that I am going to allow SR to be up? I'll have to contradict myself here
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This is going to be a pointless argument if you're going to keep contradicting yourself to make yourself seem right for the argument at hand.

So I'll move on.

Does anyone else feel that this round of testing was pretty much the worst metagame UU has had since...ever? I'm pretty sure old UU was more stable and balanced then this.

Lowering the already voted BL Pokemon down into UU was completely and utterly counter-productive. They were voted BL for a reason. That reason was that they were broken. The worst part is that I can tell Gallade is the only one that's going to be gone because it overshadows Froslass and Raikou. I just can't really get a really "stable" team together, and I don't one else can either because I'm still winning. The closest I got to stable was the team I posted...and of course that has quite a few weaknesses.
 
This is going to be a pointless argument if you're going to keep contradicting yourself
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I've only revised my previous statement to make it... better than what it was.

Original Statement:
Right, because entry hazards are far from common and to difficult to setup and keep up.
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Second, "contradictory" statement.
I'll have to contradict myself here but spinning away entry hazards gets easier if the team you play against doesn't heavily rely on them.
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Are you going to say that statement is incorrect? If so then yes we should move on because (I don't really believe this) you don't have a understanding of this metagame or perhaps, simply, how different teams use and rely on entry hazards. Otherwise, we can continue discussing why Gallade should remain in UU.
I'm pretty sure old UU was more stable and balanced
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What makes a metagame "Stabled and Balanced?" That Stall Teams and Offensive Teams can co-exhist?
 
Exclamation Point said:
I've only revised my previous statement to make it... better than what it was.

Original Statement:
Second, "contradictory" statement.
Are you going to say that statement is incorrect? If so then yes we should move on because (I don't really believe this) you don't have a understanding of this metagame or perhaps, simply, how different teams use and rely on entry hazards. Otherwise, we can continue discussing why Gallade should remain in UU.
What makes a metagame "Stabled and Balanced?" That Stall Teams and Offensive Teams can co-exhist?
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You were arguing that you can just set up entry hazards and phaze shit because it's hard to spin. Then someone (possibly me) proved that your argument was flawed and argued that Gallade benefits more from entry hazards than phaze spamming Pokemon. After that you were quick to dismiss your argument against the previous point. Not to mention it is unbelievably incorrect.

Good Luck spinning against 2 Ghosts (Froslass + Spin Blocker) with something that can barely dent the ghosts. Donphan is the best we have, but it isn't good enough.

A stable and balanced metagame is a game without any broken strategy or Pokemon. This UU is full of that because of Froslass, Raikou, MAYBE Rhyperior / Honchkrow (I wouldn't vote either BL myself), and definitely Gallade. It also should have some actual depth to it rather than just hoping you win rock paper scissors.

On a side note, Stall was very powerful compared to offense in old UU.
 
I through arguing. Not my style >.>

Gallade has plenty of viable checks that are not centralized towards him. Saying that checks are irrelevant is a joke. Setting up realistic scenarios, entry hazards, only in favor of a Pokemon, Galade, and not looking at both sides of the field is unfair and unrealistic. Checks are dependent on his set. No one set is unstoppable. Finally, one comment that has bothered me...

When the game devolves into - Destroy things with Gallade until such a point that the opponent brings out a faster Normal-type, to which they can then exploit via Rhyperior, I have a problem with Gallade.
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Every Pokemon has a way of exploiting another. Destroy things with Swellow until such a point the opponent brings out a Rock-type, to which they can then exploit via Slowbro, I have a problem with Swellow.

Whatever, I'd still like to see more comments about this.
 
Blastoise is a crazy spinner, Heysup. Come in on something like Rhyperior or Donphan, Yawn the ghost or grass, and spin.

Blastoise is great in UU now, period. Roar/Rapid Spin/Yawn cracks so much, it's not even funny.

And in response to your earlier question, I hate this metagame. Not because of the suspects, I can handle them individually, but randomly dropping them in UU after the best Pokémon leaves, and alongside three others? It's going to be a bumpy ride.
 
BurtonEarny said:
Your acting like the player HAS to swords dance in order to be a threat when in all actuality it can just as easily attack costing you the swellow.
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And if a MixMence could perfectly predict the opponent, always using the right attack... I mean, it's possible. It does have an attack to beat you no matter what, unless you have a ScarfCress, and hey, who knows, it could be using that right move on you every time, destroying your checks and counters. It doesn't HAVE to go for that Swords Dance--it could Fire Blast you right as you switch to Skarmory for all you know, costing you your "counter", potentially opening you up for a sweep and still having done its job already even if it doesn't. Is Mence Uber? That would be a no, since the entire argument is based upon prediction--if Salamance predicts right, it wins, if you predict right, you do. Just like with Gallade, nothing is hardly certain, but that doesn't make it broken, because that's just the name of the game--prediction. Sometimes you'll predict right and you'll win and other times you won't and you'll loose. That's just how Pokemon works. No matter what you do, you can't be certain that your checks will actually work out for you.

Thus, if the only argument a Pokemon has for being BL/Uber is that "well, it could predict better than you and win!" than it clearly shouldn't be BL/Uber, as that's just normal Pokemon for you and hardly a sign of brokeness (unless we actually do start banning stuff like Salamance and Lucario under the same logic, of how they could beat you if they do something atypical).
 
031ap said:
Blastoise is a crazy spinner, Heysup. Come in on something like Rhyperior or Donphan, Yawn the ghost or grass, and spin.

Blastoise is great in UU now, period. Roar/Rapid Spin/Yawn cracks so much, it's not even funny.

And in response to your earlier question, I hate this metagame. Not because of the suspects, I can handle them individually, but randomly dropping them in UU after the best Pokémon leaves, and alongside three others? It's going to be a bumpy ride.
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I thought yawn was good and all, but I ran into too many people who run a rest talk rotom with WoW and thunderbolt... blastoise isn't going to be spinning against that thing regardless of yawn. Double ghost is pretty rare now (unless you count froslass who almost always dies), so I opt for foresight on blastoise especially since venusaur on the same team has sleep powder.
 
I run Blastoise and Venusaur together as well, but I dropped Sleep Powder on Saur for Leech Seed (which I never use, any better filler?), because the momentum I gain from racking up Yawn switches is too good to pass up. It really forces around the other team, and Roar is just as good versus Raikou, Missy, and all the Subbers.

But shouldn't RestTalk Rotom have Discharge over Thunderbolt?
 
Dear Users,

Please continue to use Power Whip / Earthquake Venusaur so that all of my Flying-type Pokemon like Honchkrow and Moltres can come in for absolutely free and devestate your teams.

Sincerely, LonelyNess
 
LonelyNess said:
Dear Users,

Please continue to use Power Whip / Earthquake Venusaur so that all of my Flying-type Pokemon like Honchkrow and Moltres can come in for absolutely free and devestate your teams.

Sincerely, LonelyNess
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Too bad mine has Sludge Bomb, so with SR you're not going to switch in freely lol
Power hip/EQ Venusaur is asking for flying pokes to switch. Altaria is the most noted one, since she can set up DD in Venusaur's face. Without any problems. 6 DD if someone is dumb enough to keep Venusaur in.

Now my turn:

Please continue using Swellow and Choiced pokes so my Aggron can come in and kill someone or two... or the entire team for free. Since Aggron isn't so used, i can easily lure them.
 
Exclamation Point said:
Destroy things with Swellow until such a point the opponent brings out a Rock-type, to which they can then exploit via Slowbro, I have a problem with Swellow.
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Swellow might have been considered a suspect on paper at one point except for the fact that UU is so filled with priority thanks to Yanmega in the past and numerous fast but frail powerhouses. It doesn't help that it is Stealth Rock weak and is always on a timer.

It is one of the most terrifying threats in UU and always has been.
 
Heysup said:
Does anyone else feel that this round of testing was pretty much the worst metagame UU has had since...ever? I'm pretty sure old UU was more stable and balanced then this.
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It blows.

Might as well bring Staraptor and Obama back. And Yanmega too so he can fuck up offense again.
 
Naxte said:
And if a MixMence could perfectly predict the opponent, always using the right attack... I mean, it's possible. It does have an attack to beat you no matter what, unless you have a ScarfCress, and hey, who knows, it could be using that right move on you every time, destroying your checks and counters. It doesn't HAVE to go for that Swords Dance--it could Fire Blast you right as you switch to Skarmory for all you know, costing you your "counter", potentially opening you up for a sweep and still having done its job already even if it doesn't. Is Mence Uber? That would be a no, since the entire argument is based upon prediction--if Salamance predicts right, it wins, if you predict right, you do. Just like with Gallade, nothing is hardly certain, but that doesn't make it broken, because that's just the name of the game--prediction. Sometimes you'll predict right and you'll win and other times you won't and you'll loose. That's just how Pokemon works. No matter what you do, you can't be certain that your checks will actually work out for you.

Thus, if the only argument a Pokemon has for being BL/Uber is that "well, it could predict better than you and win!" than it clearly shouldn't be BL/Uber, as that's just normal Pokemon for you and hardly a sign of brokeness (unless we actually do start banning stuff like Salamance and Lucario under the same logic, of how they could beat you if they do something atypical).
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thats nothing like what I was saying. Gallade doesn't have to swords dance to be an effective attacker. Perfect prediction isnt needed. If gallade attacks and swellow isn't immune, then it dies. Attacking without using swords dance isn't a bad move, and people act like gallade is 100% of the time, without exception going to SD.

It was said "bring in something like Swellow as it SD's". That is equally as bad logic because they cannot be 100% certain that gallade will use that move in the first place and if a gallade honestly sets up SD without the player scouting a team before hand then its absolutely wasteful. If the answer to beating a pokemon is A) REVENGE KILL with a faster pokemon which is stupid talk and B)PREDICTING AN SD AND SWITCHING which according to you is bad logic, then obviously there is a problem with the pokemon being too powerful.
 
I only said that, because every Gallade that I've seen so far SD's right away. Usually, though, they never even get a chance to come in.
 
Lol, I have the feeling that I am the only one who thinks that Galade isnt broken (well not as broken as Frosslass). Either I am overprepared for Galade, or it is not as threatening as they say. In my opinion, in order to determine if an offensive-minded pokemon should be banned, you should test it in the defensive and not in the offensive. What I mean is: make your typical team and see if Galade (or any other suspect) can be troublesome against your team.

Anyway I am not the best UU player here. I started playing some days before the yanmega ban and I think that UU is a very enjoyable metagame. I dont have a clear view of what the metagame was before suspect testing, so ignore my post if you feel so.
 
Heysup said:
Does anyone else feel that this round of testing was pretty much the worst metagame UU has had since...ever? I'm pretty sure old UU was more stable and balanced then this.

I just can't really get a really "stable" team together, and I don't one else can either because I'm still winning. The closest I got to stable was the team I posted...and of course that has quite a few weaknesses.
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I don't know how I missed this but I'm in 100% agreement. This metagame is horrible. I haven't been able to get a stable team either but I'm still winning probably around 60-70% of my matches. I would be curious to see some of the teams that are having consistent success i.e. those in the top 20 on the leaderboard.


The only one that I have seen high up that I can associate is lopunnys hail stall. Snover might be under BL for support, but unless hail stall resumes its former UU popularity I doubt it will get voted on anytime soon with all of the glaring suspects running around.
 
I know Ambipom already has 4 move-slot syndrome (Fake Out / Return / Taunt / Low Kick / Pursuit / U-turn), but has anyone tried HP Grass on it? With a Life Orb and Technician boost, it does 72-85% to 4 / 0 Rhyperior, and 252 / 0 is still cleanly 2HKOed (62-73%), while Low Kick only does 45-53% and 38-45% respectively, and it's also possible that defensive Rhyperior will invest EVs towards Defense. It also OHKOs 252 / 0 Omastar with Stealth Rock damage. Pretty gimmicky but keeping Rhyperior in check may be worth it.

I don't get why people are saying that revenge killing is a worthless, antiquated concept, but the idea that you can only prepare for a Pokemon by carrying a reliable paper counter isn't. For example, I carry bulky Venusaur, and you carry Leaf Blade Gallade. The best you can do to touch it is Close Combat, which doesn't OHKO if they have any defensive investment, and their Power Whip OHKOs back. Am I fucked if you carry Psycho Cut? Yes. But the thing is that you don't in this scenario. And if you carry Psycho Cut, I also carry Spiritomb.

The point is that stall can deal with it. It may not have a "Oh look Raikou better switch in Registeel" kind of counter, but it is possible. That said, I think it's very possible that Gallade simply has too much firepower so it is too difficult (possible, but difficult) for stall to deal with it this way, but dismissing revenge-killing or "checking" entirely and saying stupid things like "then it's already done its job" isn't a good response.

Grass Knot is the far superior option, if you use it. I'm not sure, but judging from your calcs, it would likely KO.
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I didn't even realize Ambipom learned this, but you're right. 83-98% to max HP Rhyperior. Damn. Rhyperior can't even switch into Return from Ambipom without being killed next turn.
 
Completely agree with all the sentiments so far. I really hate this metagame, especially the lead metagame (I am really, honestly starting to think that Ambipom is BL material and I know for sure that Lass is) but I'm not having any problems successfully beating most of the teams I'm up against just because they rely too much on the "brokenness" of the suspects to win and don't use actual strategy.
The most successful teams I've encountered use a combination of old standards and maybe one new suspect that they support.

My revised verdict on the suspects:

Gallade: BL. Gallade does to stall what Yanmega did to offense and, while anything that rapes stall will gain my support in spirit, I can't support keeping it UU.
Alakazam: UU. Completely underwhelming as anything except a late game cleaner, which is usually done better by Swellow or Raikou anyway.
Froslass: BL. Yeah, I know it loses to Ambipom, shut up about it. I don't want to have to run Ambipom just because of Froslass' very existence, that's like saying offensive teams could beat Yanmega by "just running Registeel or Chansey".
Rhyperior: UU. Rhyperior's impact on the tier reminds me of Donphan in a lot of ways. A valuable addition to the tier, and probably the only member who actually contributes to the metagame.
Raikou: I'm split on him. I'm leaning towards UU right now, but only because my current team has 0 problems with it. That may change when I get around to making a new team.
 
Grass Knot is the far superior option, if you use it. I'm not sure, but judging from your calcs, it would likely KO.

On offense, there is usually no such thing as a counter, simply certain Pokémon that can switch in on certain moves, and threaten. Read your opponent's mind, and force them into using a certain move, to get the desired result.
 
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