np: UU - The Boys Are Back in Town

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Though I'm making no definite judgment on him just yet, it is probably the case that Gallade is just a little bit too much for stall to reasonably handle, and that it is overall unhealthy for the metagame if such a key and significant strategy is to be deemed completely obsolete. If he does get voted BL though, I would like to see people have an open mind towards a possible future retest should Cresselia (almost a perfect counter for stall) ever drop down to UU and be deemed acceptable.

Having said this, I believe that much of the Gallade discussion of late has been horribly unfocused with regards to its potential brokenness. I may explain why in more detail sometime, but I don't have much time on my hands right now. In short, it is Gallade's effect on punching through stall, or teams of a stallish nature to some extent, that make his UU status questionable. Nothing else.

 

[franky]

Stall really is difficult to run now. However, most people should start finding ways to check Gallade instead of sticking to old stall tools. One check I found was Defensive Moltres with EVs to outpace Adamant Gallade. Sub / Roost / Roar / Air Slash with Spikes and Stealth Rock on the field is difficult to take down (at least from my experience, since not many took mine down). I have to get on the ladder more often though to experience this metagame. This metagame shifts a lot nowadays (so i heard).

 

[Heysup]

On a completely different note, has anyone tried Gravity yet? A ton of cool users got it, and with Pokemon like Rhyperior in UU it could be cool :)

 

[d2m]

On a completely different note, has anyone tried Gravity yet? A ton of cool users got it, and with Pokemon like Rhyperior in UU it could be cool :)

IMO Gravity is somewhat hard to pull off. Unlike RD/SD, there is no item that gives it extra turns, and unlike TR and the rest, it doesn't make your guys go first. While there certainly are good gravity sets/sweepers, it seems to me like it's not really worth the time and effort to set up when you have so many setup sweepers that can take advantage of the free switch on Gravity.

 

[Heysup]

I'm actually having tons of fun using Gravity (I just started making random teams for UU because it's so god damn dull).

Porygon2 is actually unbelievable at setting it up and supporting your team. All you need is a modest nature to boost your SpA (for EV efficiency sake), and then use Gravity, Zap Cannon, Blizzard, and Recover with all EVs split in Defenses and HP.

Rock Polish Rhyperior is bad ass as you could imagine, especially when you send him out on your first Gravity and spam EQs, saving Rock Polish for late game when they are all weakened.

Nidoking and Sceptile are pretty cool too. Nidoking can use standard Physical moveset with Thunder over Megahorn and Sceptile can abuse Grasswhistle Swords Dance! *waits patiently for Flygon to drop to UU*.

My only issue is fitting both Spikes and SR on my team...

 

[anduril38]

I'm actually having tons of fun using it (I just started making random teams for UU because it's so god damn dull).

Porygon2 is actually unbelievable at setting it up and supporting your team. All you need is a modest nature to boost your SpA (for EV efficiency sake), and then use Gravity, Zap Cannon, Blizzard, and Recover with all EVs split in Defenses and HP.

Rock Polish Rhyperior is bad ass as you could imagine, especially when you send him out on your first Gravity and spam EQs, saving Rock Polish for late game when they are all weakened.

Nidoking and Sceptile are pretty cool too. Nidoking can use standard Physical moveset with Thunder over Megahorn and Sceptile can abuse Grasswhistle Swords Dance! *waits patiently for Flygon to drop to UU*.

My only issue is fitting both Spikes and SR on my team...

That is a pretty awesome idea I must say XD

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Stall really is difficult to run now. However, most people should start finding ways to check Gallade instead of sticking to old stall tools. One check I found was Defensive Moltres with EVs to outpace Adamant Gallade. Sub / Roost / Roar / Air Slash with Spikes and Stealth Rock on the field is difficult to take down (at least from my experience, since not many took mine down). I have to get on the ladder more often though to experience this metagame. This metagame shifts a lot nowadays (so i heard).

Yeah, I've actually faced a Moltres like that on the ladder recently. It can actually be quite effective because Roar in conjunction with SubRoost means that stuff like Raikou has a hard time setting up on it. Though like all Moltres, it relies a lot on the spinner keeping SR off the field to do its job effectively, as switching into Gallade with SR down is tricky even if they aren't running a Jolly nature or Stone Edge.

 

[BurtonEarny]

Heysup, you have inspired me.

I've been working on a gravity stall team, and so far it has had some solid results. 3 "checks" for gallade help keep that from being such a huge threat.

EDIT:
I think I'm just going to take out the gravity part because its just not helping that much...

 

[Folgorio]

Does anyone else feel that this round of testing was pretty much the worst metagame UU has had since...ever? I'm pretty sure old UU was more stable and balanced then this.

Lowering the already voted BL Pokemon down into UU was completely and utterly counter-productive. They were voted BL for a reason. That reason was that they were broken. The worst part is that I can tell Gallade is the only one that's going to be gone because it overshadows Froslass and Raikou. I just can't really get a really "stable" team together, and I don't one else can either because I'm still winning. The closest I got to stable was the team I posted...and of course that has quite a few weaknesses.

Me and I'm sure more than a few people agree 100% with this.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

It is a fair point to claim that this round of testing is one of the most unbalanced we have ever had. But it is not fair to claim that the testing process is counter-productive because of this, that is an awfully backwards way of looking at it. Just because the metagame has suddenly become unbalanced as a result of the new additions, this does not mean that all the new additions are to blame, and therefore they are all broken. That's not necessarily the case at all.

Put it this way; UU has just undergone the largest revamp since its original inception back in January, so some degree of unbalance is to be expected for sure. However, this is no time to jump to rash conclusions. In order for the process to continue to go smoothly, each Pokemon needs to be judged individually on its own merits with respect to the current metagame after a suitable testing period. We can certainly do without the outspoken views of people like Heysup who think that they have better insight than the rest of us.

 

[A.P.]

It's nothing to do with lowering those Pokémon.

It's because Roserade and Yanmega left, and we brought down 6 new Pokémon at once, resulting in a completely, COMPLETELY new metagame, which no one is experienced with.

Thus, we're doing the whole testing new sets thing again, to figure out how radically changed this is.

 

[Thund91]

I have no problem with the other suspects or the new additions, I think that they fit perfectly. The only one I have a problem with is Gallade, and I think the majority can agree with me on that one.

 

[Heysup]

It is a fair point to claim that this round of testing is one of the most unbalanced we have ever had. But it is not fair to claim that the testing process is counter-productive because of this, that is an awfully backwards way of looking at it. Just because the metagame has suddenly become unbalanced as a result of the new additions, this does not mean that all the new additions are to blame, and therefore they are all broken. That's not necessarily the case at all.

Put it this way; UU has just undergone the largest revamp since its original inception back in January, so some degree of unbalance is to be expected for sure. However, this is no time to jump to rash conclusions. In order for the process to continue to go smoothly, each Pokemon needs to be judged individually on its own merits with respect to the current metagame after a suitable testing period. We can certainly do without the outspoken views of people like Heysup who think that they have better insight than the rest of us.

I didn't say all of the new additions are to blame, I'm saying the unreasonable additions to the metagame are to blame.

Pokemon that were voted BL from a pool of respected and knowledgeable battlers should have remained banned. When the BL Pokemon were released, it basically rained shit all over the UU metagame. This effectively turned the UU metagame into shit.

Not counter-productive? We were definitely nearing a balanced metagame before the previously tested BL Pokemon were dropped, then it turned into a shitty unbalanced metagame after the BL Pokemon were dropped. That's the definition of counter-productive.

Also, Gallade, Raikou, and Froslass are now solid evidence that 50%+1 majority was far from a flawed voting process, even if the 66%+1 is better, simple majority is still accurate.

On top of this, it isn't like the suspects will never be retested. We just jumped the gun on this one.

Gravity is fun though :)

 

[Stagnant]

It's because Roserade and Yanmega left, and we brought down 6 new Pokémon at once, resulting in a completely, COMPLETELY new metagame, which no one is experienced with.

January there was about 20+ BL Pokemon introduced into UU. Only six (erm... 5? Froslass, Gallade, Raikou Staraptor, Abomasnow) were deemed BL. Two of which actually remained, Gallade and Staraptor.

 

[Heysup]

January there was about 20+ BL Pokemon introduced into UU. Only six (erm... 5? Froslass, Gallade, Raikou Staraptor, Abomasnow) were deemed BL. Two of which actually remained, Gallade and Staraptor.

The sad part about that is that this metagame is actually less stable then when we originally dropped the 20+ BL Pokemon into this metagame.

 

[A.P.]

Personally, I'm fine with Gallade and all getting dropped into UU, but it's that we had no warning beforehand. The people in charge could have told us, or we could have voted on it.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Not counter-productive? We were definitely nearing a balanced metagame before the previously tested BL Pokemon were dropped, then it turned into a shitty unbalanced metagame after the BL Pokemon were dropped. That's the definition of counter-productive.

Sometimes in order to descend a mountain, you have to climb the odd hill.

Also, Gallade, Raikou, and Froslass are now solid evidence that 50%+1 majority was far from a flawed voting process, even if the 66%+1 is better, simple majority is still accurate.

What solid evidence? I don't think that Raikou is broken at all, and never did. I wasn't quite convinced about Gallade before, but I am becoming more so now. As for Froslass, I deemed it BL before, but this time around I'm not quite so sure. Stop pretending that your personal opinion speaks for everyone.

January there was about 20+ BL Pokemon introduced into UU. Only six (erm... 5? Froslass, Gallade, Raikou Staraptor, Abomasnow) were deemed BL. Two of which actually remained, Gallade and Staraptor.

Not sure exactly what you mean by this. What is so special about Gallade and Staraptor in this particular case?

The sad part about that is that this metagame is actually less stable then when we originally dropped the 20+ BL Pokemon into this metagame.

Nah, the period with Aboma-Hail and Staraptor carnage was much more unstable IMO.

Personally, I'm fine with Gallade and all getting dropped into UU, but it's that we had no warning beforehand. The people in charge could have told us, or we could have voted on it.

Gotta agree with you there. There could've at least been an announcement a couple of days prior, if not a policy discussion. We didn't even get a chance to start brainstorming teams in preparation.

 

[BurtonEarny]

Gotta agree with you there. There could've at least been an announcement a couple of days prior, if not a policy discussion. We didn't even get a chance to start brainstorming teams in preparation.

I know. The first time I ran into a Gallade in a match I had no idea the suspects had been dropped yet... Froslass was the lead, and rhyperior was on the team also. It was NOT a pleasant match for me. :(

 

[Mattman324]

I'm actually having tons of fun using Gravity (I just started making random teams for UU because it's so god damn dull).

Porygon2 is actually unbelievable at setting it up and supporting your team. All you need is a modest nature to boost your SpA (for EV efficiency sake), and then use Gravity, Zap Cannon, Blizzard, and Recover with all EVs split in Defenses and HP.

Rock Polish Rhyperior is bad ass as you could imagine, especially when you send him out on your first Gravity and spam EQs, saving Rock Polish for late game when they are all weakened.

Nidoking and Sceptile are pretty cool too. Nidoking can use standard Physical moveset with Thunder over Megahorn and Sceptile can abuse Grasswhistle Swords Dance! *waits patiently for Flygon to drop to UU*.

My only issue is fitting both Spikes and SR on my team...

Aww, why'd you have to do that? I just got a balanced team assembled for the first time ever (Pinser/Absol/Manectric/Tauros/Regice/Milktank) and you have to dangle those lovely gimmicks in front of my head? Do you have any IDEA how long it took to desert the old TR team?

Sereously though, gonna have to use Gravety. Maybe later I'll make a team about it.

 

[A.P.]

How about Regice on a Gravity team?

Zap Cannon/Rock Polish/Blizzard/Focus Blast (or Superpower for Chansey)

 

[Heysup]

Aww, why'd you have to do that? I just got a balanced team assembled for the first time ever (Pinser/Absol/Manectric/Tauros/Regice/Milktank) and you have to dangle those lovely gimmicks in front of my head? Do you have any IDEA how long it took to desert the old TR team?

Sereously though, gonna have to use Gravety. Maybe later I'll make a team about it.

Gravity is still "gimmicky" even though it's pretty good :).

And Regice might be worth a shot actually, never thought about that...

 

[Blackhawk11]

What solid evidence? I don't think that Raikou is broken at all, and never did. I wasn't quite convinced about Gallade before, but I am becoming more so now. As for Froslass, I deemed it BL before, but this time around I'm not quite so sure. Stop pretending that your personal opinion speaks for everyone.

Personally, I've found Raikou to be very broken. Its Speed is likely the cause of this, considering it can set up either a sub or CM before ~90% of the metagame, and then sweep just about any team, prepared or not. Raikou's defenses are not terrible at all; 90/75/100 is actually very good, allowing Raikou to survive the odd priority move. STAB Thunderbolt + HP Ice gets near perfect coverage, meaning that Raikou can afford to run Substitute and Calm Mind in the final two slots. My team has no solid answer to any well played Raikou, and if anyone has discovered one, I'm all ears. I have yet to use Raikou on my own team, but I plan on doing so with the next team I make (provided I'm not swept away with Heysup's Gravity ideas). So far, Raikou is BL in my eyes.

Gallade I also have not yet used, but going up against it I have had very little problems. I don't run a stall team, but I imagine this thing is a very good stall breaker from what I have heard. If Yanmega was still UU, I don't think that Gallade would be nearly as popular. I'm undecided as to Gallade's tier currently.

I agree with you on Froslass. All it can ever get on my is one layer of Spikes, which really isn't that bothersome. I've only seen an opposing sweeper variant once, which I easily disposed of (Scarf Houndoom can switch in on just about anything and OHKO with either of its STABs). I've used it as a sweeper myself (SubPetaya) and it really wasn't that powerful. Right now I feel that Froslass can stay in UU.

 

[A.P.]

Raikou is actually the weakest, IMO. Swellow OHKOs, lol, and Venusaur comes in and can soak up its hits, used right.

Raikou also falls to Registeel, certain Regirock, Chansey, Regice, and many others.

Leaf Blade Gallade hits as hard as CC.

 

[whistle]

Bold 252/252 HP/Def Milotic isn't OHKOed by a +2 Close Combat

766 Atk vs 282 Def & 394 HP (120 Base Power): 454 - 535 (115.23% - 135.79%)

 

[Heysup]

Oh I missed this I'll respond to it now.

Sometimes in order to descend a mountain, you have to climb the odd hill.

That's true. However what we did was climb three quarters of the way and then jumped off.

What solid evidence? I don't think that Raikou is broken at all, and never did. I wasn't quite convinced about Gallade before, but I am becoming more so now. As for Froslass, I deemed it BL before, but this time around I'm not quite so sure. Stop pretending that your personal opinion speaks for everyone.

I wasn't arguing that any of the Pokemon themselves are broken (even though I believe they all are).

I was saying that the metagame was undeniably broken, even you must agree to this. And if the metagame just rebreaks after suspects are added back in because of not getting 2/3 majority, then it's proof that 50% is pretty damn accurate.

Nah, the period with Aboma-Hail and Staraptor carnage was much more unstable IMO.

Those were definitely broken at the time, but it definitely didn't make the metagame as much of a shit storm as this did. There were far more Pokemon in that metagame that could control some of the BL Pokemon, now those Pokemon are banned, making UU horribly unstable.

Gotta agree with you there. There could've at least been an announcement a couple of days prior, if not a policy discussion. We didn't even get a chance to start brainstorming teams in preparation.

That was the icing on the cake of course. Apparently voting Policy trumps metagame stability :(


I also just want to point out that something having counters doesn't mean it isn't broken. Raikou can have 40000 counters and still be broken.