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Heavy Offense
- Thread starter The SPrinkLer
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The thing is, after a Spore/Sleep Powder, you're stuck into it. Heavy offense is about keeping the momentum up, and having a Choiced sleeper severely restricts your momentum.
Because even if you cripple your opponent's lead with Sleep, you're forced into a double switch (due to Scarf + Sleep Clause). Which contradicts one of the tenets of heavy offense - minimizing guesswork.
Been giving Uxie another whirl and I definitely miss having a fast Taunt in the lead position.
There are multiple problems with scarfed sleep leads.
The first one is that they create double-switches, which will often end up getting something on your team killed.
The second problem is that they are a scarfer, and if you don't use your sleep move every time you bring it out then it will get set up on.
The third problem is that lum berry and other scarf leads are popular. If you go against one of these then you are 6-5 as in the first example.
The fact is that scarf sleep leads don't get up rocks and don't transition well into sweepers, offering no free turns. That is unacceptable. The lead is about more than getting a quick advantage. If I wanted a quick advantage, I would use lead machamp, which beats most other leads and has encore, but the free turns that SR and LS provide are much more important than a temorary 6-5.
Encore Ape is good, you just have to get used to it. I don't think it is as good as Azelf though. Azelf gives you multiple free turns with screens, taunts, and srs all while losing to few leads. There are no HO leads that beat so many other leads right now. technically you only "lose" to other azelf 50% of the time, and when you lose you get to bring in ttar and kill them immediately anyway. Aerodactyl is a problem for generally ground/rock weak ho teams, but scizor does the trick and you can bring in azelf again later on something easy to set up on. With Jirachi I tend to stay in because they fail to 3hko if you manage to reflect as they iron head. Alternatively you can taunt on t1 to ensure they aren't twave + iron head, and if they are indeed scarf then you can go to gyara if they iron head or whatever if they trick you. The leads that people mentioned that beat azelf are not 100% bad matchups.
The first one is that they create double-switches, which will often end up getting something on your team killed.
The second problem is that they are a scarfer, and if you don't use your sleep move every time you bring it out then it will get set up on.
The third problem is that lum berry and other scarf leads are popular. If you go against one of these then you are 6-5 as in the first example.
The fact is that scarf sleep leads don't get up rocks and don't transition well into sweepers, offering no free turns. That is unacceptable. The lead is about more than getting a quick advantage. If I wanted a quick advantage, I would use lead machamp, which beats most other leads and has encore, but the free turns that SR and LS provide are much more important than a temorary 6-5.
Encore Ape is good, you just have to get used to it. I don't think it is as good as Azelf though. Azelf gives you multiple free turns with screens, taunts, and srs all while losing to few leads. There are no HO leads that beat so many other leads right now. technically you only "lose" to other azelf 50% of the time, and when you lose you get to bring in ttar and kill them immediately anyway. Aerodactyl is a problem for generally ground/rock weak ho teams, but scizor does the trick and you can bring in azelf again later on something easy to set up on. With Jirachi I tend to stay in because they fail to 3hko if you manage to reflect as they iron head. Alternatively you can taunt on t1 to ensure they aren't twave + iron head, and if they are indeed scarf then you can go to gyara if they iron head or whatever if they trick you. The leads that people mentioned that beat azelf are not 100% bad matchups.
Ok so, most HO teams need a poke to switch into opposing Azelf and Aerodactyl. I guess thats why I got raped by every Aero lead, I didnt have Scizor. Stone edge beat Gyara and Mence, and Earthquake hurt Meta, T-tar, and Lucario.
So Azelf, Tyranitar, Scizor is basically a staple then I guess.
Azelf, Tyranitar, Scizor, Metagross, Gyarados/Kingdra, Salamence, is my new HO team now lmao
Are there any alternatives to Metagross on a HO team btw? The one above dont have Lucario, who I basically replaced for Scizor. Meta dont seem to do much when I use him, however I could just be playing badly
So Azelf, Tyranitar, Scizor is basically a staple then I guess.
Azelf, Tyranitar, Scizor, Metagross, Gyarados/Kingdra, Salamence, is my new HO team now lmao
Are there any alternatives to Metagross on a HO team btw? The one above dont have Lucario, who I basically replaced for Scizor. Meta dont seem to do much when I use him, however I could just be playing badly
I agree that Metagross sometimes seems lacking in power, particularly on a team of DDers/SDers. If you find it problematic, you may want to put Lucario back in over Meta. It makes it harder to set up on Choiced Dragon moves or stuff locked into Outrage, but Lucario still has the important Rock resistance and to some extent mimics Agiligross's ability to outspeed things through access to priority. If desired, you can probably run a relatively bulky spread on Scizor to help compensate for the loss of hit-taking ability from dropping Metagross, since you don't sacrifice much offensive ability by doing so.
You forget to mention that Metagross has that rock resistance anyway. Its not 4x resist like Lucarios is. Also if you were to run a bulky spread on scizor, then how would it be a HO team if theres a bulky Pokemon? My understanding of HO is that all Pokemon are sweepers that require a turn of setup and sweep. In HO, there can be no consideration for bulkiness or defence as it slows the pace down significantly.
I wouldn't call Tyranitar a staple tbh, but nonetheless it is very good. As an alternative to Metagross, I would agree with Lucario and the SD set. Also, are you using Agiligross ZMT? If not, then do you think that might help?
Standard Screen Azelf leads off
DD Tyranitar: Taunt, DD, Crunch, Stone Edge (comes in if I lose to another Azelf lead)
SD Scizor, Bug Bite, Bullet punch, Swords Dance, Roost (comes in immediately on Aerodactyl, May give 252 hp, and just use him to absorb Toxic/T-wave idk)
Metagross: Agility, Meteor Mash, Earthquake, T-Punch
Gyarados: DD, Waterfall, Stone Edge, Earthquake
Salamence: DD, Outrage, Earthquake, Fire Blast
DD Tyranitar: Taunt, DD, Crunch, Stone Edge (comes in if I lose to another Azelf lead)
SD Scizor, Bug Bite, Bullet punch, Swords Dance, Roost (comes in immediately on Aerodactyl, May give 252 hp, and just use him to absorb Toxic/T-wave idk)
Metagross: Agility, Meteor Mash, Earthquake, T-Punch
Gyarados: DD, Waterfall, Stone Edge, Earthquake
Salamence: DD, Outrage, Earthquake, Fire Blast
Metagross and Lucario can be on the same team. The staples are most likely Salamence and Gyarados.
I think HO could herald a return to form for our old friend scarf Heracross. Some quick dual base 120 stabs mixed with the fact that he loves burn. If there's a solution as to how to deal with a rotom attempting to wisp your HO team, Heracross rocking his beastly 120 base stabs stone edge and the all important night slash is it.
Why sac a perfectly good Gyarados or Scizor when you can benefit so much from such an easy prediction?
Why sac a perfectly good Gyarados or Scizor when you can benefit so much from such an easy prediction?
This is perhaps not terribly important to the topic overall, but I would like to clarify that when I said
I meant that you can sub in Lucario over Metagross without sacrificing a slot with a Rock resistance on the team. Metagross has a Rock resist, you lose one if you take him out, you regain it when you put Lucario in his place.
While you are correct that using bulky Pokes for the sake of being bulky is not productive for HO, you are also almost inevitably (with any variant of physical HO for OU that I have ever encountered) going to be forced to take some hits at some point, and it's no good if your monsters die before having the chance to set up. So the reason for the bulk is not for absorbing hits for no particular end, it's so that you can survive and set up vs. things like Latias spamming Dragon Pulse/Draco Meteor or vs. Salamence locked into Outrage, i.e. for offensive purposes.
Many Pokemon you want to run in HO do not reasonably have the opportunity to run bulky spreads. Salamence needs 252 Speed and the remaining 256 EVs in Atk/Spatk in some distribution, Lucario needs max Speed/max Attack, Tyranitar needs max Speed/max Attack, and so on.
Scizor on the other hand (and frequently Metagross as well, and perhaps a handful of others) actually do not demand 252/252 spreads because of their nature. Metagross doesn't start outspeeding anything in particular at 239 Speed (stat) that it wouldn't with ~225, so you might as well grab a few extra points of HP. (Max Speed + Jolly doesn't net you anything in particular after an Agility either, aside from Timid HP Fire Scarfed Latias/Gengar, for the curious.) Similarly, Scizor is a slow guy who doesn't really benefit particularly from 252 Speed unless you fear enemy Scizors, so max Speed isn't all that useful. He even runs a priority move (and you end up mashing out a lot of Bullet Punches with SD Scizor, since you can't outspeed anything with much Speed to speak of), so Speed is intrinsically less important to him anyway. So in these cases, you are not giving up any meaningful offensive capability when you put EVs into HP or defenses rather than just maxing Speed- to the contrary, you make it easier to absorb a hit or two if needed and set up.
I think that turned into a bit of a tl;dr, but I hope it made things a little clearer.
Get-X, Heracross to eliminate Rotoms is an idea I have explored, but without a Guts boost you only have a small chance to 2HKO bulky Rotoms (252hp/160def Bold only dies like .33% of the time after SR, and even 0/0 Rotom barely takes enough damage that it will have to die- thanks to the SR damage on switch-in and the SR damage it would take from switching in again) with Adamant Hera. It's not a bad status absorber, but you can't really run Scarf on him on HO- Choice items are bad generally and Scarf is virtually never correct, and Heracross especially is locking into moves that teams can resist easily. He ends up fairly slow, then, and he doesn't have the kind of compensation (priority, Agility, resistances, sweeping threat) you normally get. There might be some sort of niche for him, but it's difficult to justify his inclusion. If you do find a way to make it work though, please share it with us.
I'll have to agree. Using a choice item does slow down the pace. If you manage to KO one of the opponents pokemon, they can come in with something that resists and setup on your switch. I find that the best way to get rid of setup-ers is to use defensively minded pokemon to get them to switch out. However, seeing as this is HO, you cannot rely on whirlwind or the like. Thus, choice items are almost redundant for HO. Heracross in particular can find a niche, but the best thing I can think of is Bulk Up to allow it to increase it's attack and defense so it can take the hit before going. However, even Bulk Up Heracross has many flaws, but it was a suggestion.
Willowisp on Rotom is one of the many reasons I'd carry Taunt on Tyranitar. Even though Rotom will likely switch out, theres always going to be those players that think "well, what if he pursuits, Im gonna die regardless, lets just will o wisp and see what happens".
IMO you NEED a Pokemon with Lum Berry or Taunt on your team (not counting Azelf).
If Swampert switches into your Tyranitar, theres even a chance there they will roar. Without Taunt, Skarm roars you out as well. Rock/Dark, rapes so well as coverage, considering sooo many Steel type Pokes share their type with Psychic or Bug. So the loss of Earthquake isnt bad, and Gyarados NEEDS the coverage more imo.
IMO you NEED a Pokemon with Lum Berry or Taunt on your team (not counting Azelf).
If Swampert switches into your Tyranitar, theres even a chance there they will roar. Without Taunt, Skarm roars you out as well. Rock/Dark, rapes so well as coverage, considering sooo many Steel type Pokes share their type with Psychic or Bug. So the loss of Earthquake isnt bad, and Gyarados NEEDS the coverage more imo.
I conceed that max speed is wasted on Scizor. But about the speed on Scizor, you would want about 92 so you could tie with other Scizor. Or 96 if you wanted to outspeed by one point.
I believe that Strath's team involved setting up, and then attempting to sweep while weakening counters along the way. So switching in general would detract from the pace that HO requires.
You want to limit your need to switching, but it's not as though it will never happen. What I was actually thinking there, though, is that your Pokemon are not natively super-fast, so enemy Pokes are going to outspeed you sometimes and attack first. There's also enemy Scarfers, who you're not able to outspeed unless you've set up a speed boost of some kind, and enemy priority. So even if you do sacrifice rather than switching (which is not always correct even though it's useful), your Pokemon are quite likely taking hits. Again, it's not so you can switch around and wall, and it's not a good idea to run bulk that detracts in a meaningful way from your offensive capabilities.
Scarf is definitely out of the question due to the risk of something setting up. Also, Taunt is an amazing idea. I haven't thought of it until now. Also, yay 300!
This may sound dumb but w/e.
As I was reading everyone's posts, I see the word, "sac", and I have no idea what it means.
I thought it was to just KO a poke.
As I was reading everyone's posts, I see the word, "sac", and I have no idea what it means.
I thought it was to just KO a poke.
It's just sacrificing a Pokemon, mainly to keep the momentum on your side, or setup, etc.
"Sac" is short for sacrifice.
For example, you have a Gyarados at 35% hp, stealth rock is up on your side, and there's the opponent's Infernape waiting to Grass Knot/Stone Edge. You have Suicune in your wing to switch out to, but Gyarados isn't going to do much since switching in again would mean having 10% left. Also the opponent might be foolish enough to use Nasty Plot in case you'd switch out, and then it'd be game over for both Suicune and Gyarados. So, instead of switching out Gyarados who's at low hp and will become near useless after another switch in, you can simply DD or Waterfall to see what happen. If Gyarados falls to Grass Knot/Stone Edge, then your Suicune can come in safely and secure the game.
Because the traditional hyper offensive user hates predicting more than anything else. what if rotom carries overheat and thunderbolt, then your heracross is dead. The whole point of using heavy offense is to minimize prediction.
If your idea has anything to do with a scarf, please read the OP
lol. anyway, on a more serious note,
Isn't the whole point of HO to NOT use bulk at all if it detracts from its offensive capabilities? In the case of most Pokemon, their speed and respective attacking stat is maxed out with the lats 4 in HP or DEF. For a few Pokemon this isn't neccessary, but for the majority of Pokemon it is.
Isn't the whole point of HO to NOT use bulk at all if it detracts from its offensive capabilities? In the case of most Pokemon, their speed and respective attacking stat is maxed out with the lats 4 in HP or DEF. For a few Pokemon this isn't neccessary, but for the majority of Pokemon it is.
Ok, I tried Taunt DDTar on a relatively offensive team (much like Atticus' style of play), and Lucario was a bitch. He easily came in and set up, so in my opinion, a Lum Berry would suffice. Also WoW has a 25% chance to miss iirc, so that's two WoW's (first Lum Berry shrugged off) then the next. Someone should calculate that for me. Anyway, Fire Punch would probably be best for the last slot instead of Taunt due to Lucario.
On another note, Little Cup provides an interesting opportunity for Hyperoffense: Wynaut is legal! This means that you can easily switch-in and set up stuff like Gligar and Aron, not to mention checking things like Mankey who can prove to be a real annoyance. Another good thing is that there are no equivalents of Skarmory or Blissey, and Bronzor is surprisingly easy to wear down. The downside is that there isn't really a Pokemon that can reliably set up Stealth Rock and Dual Screens. Bronzor comes close, and you can try using Abra as a Dual Screen lead, but Meowth is a real bitch. Its like Darkrai and Ambipom had a kid who abused 'roids.
My team is using an Anorith or Diglett lead as an offensive SR user, but I'm still learning LC, so don't take it as gospel. There might be a better option out there, but both Anorith and Diglett are solid.
The following is the core of my Hyperoffense team. I will probably pick something in the last slot like Croagunk or Paras to cover my gross weakness to a Scarf Wailmer. Also, don't underestimate Taillow. It hits like a freakin' truck with a STAB, Guts-boosted Brave Bird. Immunity to Shadow Ball helps it come in on stuff like Gastly and speed tie with Misdreavus in emergencies. And since Gligar is the Garchomp of Little Cup, it can automatically make a team decent.
My team is using an Anorith or Diglett lead as an offensive SR user, but I'm still learning LC, so don't take it as gospel. There might be a better option out there, but both Anorith and Diglett are solid.
The following is the core of my Hyperoffense team. I will probably pick something in the last slot like Croagunk or Paras to cover my gross weakness to a Scarf Wailmer. Also, don't underestimate Taillow. It hits like a freakin' truck with a STAB, Guts-boosted Brave Bird. Immunity to Shadow Ball helps it come in on stuff like Gastly and speed tie with Misdreavus in emergencies. And since Gligar is the Garchomp of Little Cup, it can automatically make a team decent.
Code:
Wynaut (M) @ Oran Berry
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 82 HP/214 Def/214 SDef
Impish nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Encore
- Counter
- Mirror Coat
- Destiny Bond
---
Gligar (M) @ Oran Berry
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 236 Atk/236 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Aqua Tail
- Night Slash
---
Aron (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 42 HP/196 Atk/38 Def/196 Spd/38 SDef
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Rock Polish
- Head Smash
- Iron Head
- Earthquake
---
Taillow (M) @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 38 HP/236 Atk/236 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Protect
- Brave Bird
- Quick Attack
- Facade
---- Status