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Heavy Offense

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Yeah screens don't "go through crits", they just end up doing the same amount of damage as a normal attack without screens up.

I DID make one mistake though, if you win the speed tie the first time you don't need to use hydro pump again, so the three options are:

1 Speed Win, Hit, Crit with Hydro Pump turn 1:

.0625 * .8 * .5 = 2.5%

2 Speed Win, Hit, and Crit with Hydro Pump on the second turn after hitting with Hydro Pump on the first turn:

.8 * .5 * .8 * .0625 = 2%

3 Win the first speed tie, hit with Hydro Pump, and win the second speed tie.

.5 * .8 * .5 = 20%

So it is still 24.5% Not a spectacular mactchup for DS Azelf. This is all really trivial though. I will usually get at least a screen up. Also, I have alleviated some of the problems that Starmie gave. Nice job geting that good CRE btw. I don't ladder enough to get that, though I was able to get a 1700-somethign CRE in ubers in a couple of days with a HO team. It wasn't that special though because I got it by beating a guy with a good CRE multiple times in a row. My OU HO team wasn't too creative or synergistic.

So, how many people have gotten on the board with HO? I know of the plant, brksocsc, xiang, and me.

Please post if you have gotten over 1600 CRE with HO.
 
Please post if you have gotten over 1600 CRE with HO.
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Using ladder ratings to gauge a person's success rate with any type of play-style is really dense. There is a big difference between success in tournaments than in ladder positioning. Whether the difference is conjured between surprise factor or said person's ability to keep concentration for an abundant number of matches, there always will be a different level of success for every person. Obviously some play-styles may be more successful in either the ladder or tournaments, but success in general is placed on the ability to win through the majority of your matches, in whatever format you choose.
 
Limitless said:
Using ladder ratings to gauge a person's success rate with any type of play-style is really dense. There is a big difference between success in tournaments than in ladder positioning. Whether the difference is conjured between surprise factor or said person's ability to keep concentration for an abundant number of matches, there always will be a different level of success for every person. Obviously some play-styles may be more successful in either the ladder or tournaments, but success in general is placed on the ability to win through the majority of your matches, in whatever format you choose.
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So what is your argument against using ladder ratings to gauge success? You can't fake your way to a 1600 CRE. You have to win a very high percentage of the time to achieve that
 
cmurph said:
So what is your argument against using ladder ratings to gauge success? You can't fake your way to a 1600 CRE. You have to win a very high percentage of the time to achieve that
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I'm merely saying that you can be successful with HO even if you don't have a high CRE. Obviously if you have like 1650+ CRE, you know your way around. However, with people like me, who don't ladder as much as before, we prefer to just join in major tournaments. Now just because we don't currently have a high CRE, that doesn't mean we can't play HO or any play-style successfully. So I guess my whole point is that you should not only gauge ladder rating, but also tournament success.
 
i got to 1600 with HO on each tier. HO is my playstyle :)

I second what limitless says. In my opionon sucess in tournaments is much more important than sucess in laddering.
 
I asked only for ladder rankings because people often say that HO is not good for laddering because you lose to too many randoms. In some ways HO is more established in tourneys where you see less randoms and people are less willing to take risks. You are correct in saying that ladder rankings are not the only way to guage success.

Both of these types of play are important, and they guage different things. One guages your ability to consistently beat a wide variety of teams, and the other tests your ability to consistently beat specific, generally competent opponents. I use CRE because I assume that most people have at some point been involved with the ladder. It is in no way dense to guage success based only on one of these, but I agree that acknowledging both is a good idea.

Go ahead and also post if you have been successful in tourneys with HO (ie semis or better)

I guess I should also mention uclafan101, Class, Stathakis, and ReyScarface on that list XD

To post, you don't have to currently have a high CRE. If you have ever had a good CRE that is acceptable.
 
well I once got to 1526 using the same heavy offense team throughout, if that's considered a "good" CRE... though it seems that the problems mentioned by Plant earlier on are becoming more frequent, thus hindering this sort of battle style :/
 
brksocsc said:
crit does not go through screens, or at least not the way you think. A crit through screens will do the same amount of damage as a normal non-critical attack. For example, heatran's fireblast normally does 80% without screens against azelf, if light screen is up it will do 40%ish. And if it crits it will do 80%ish. Sorry to nitpick. And yes, about 25% of the time starmie will prevent azelf from setting up rocks.
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In practice, you're right -- whistle and I ran a test with reflect uxie and scope lens night slash absol on shoddy, and a critical hit under screens only did twice as much damage as a normal hit under screens. However, in theory...

Before anyone starts to question the text below, please understand that it was all copy/pasted from X-Act and Peterko's damage formula guide: http://www.smogon.com/dp/articles/damage_formula#mod1

Mod1 = BRN × RL × TVT × SR × FF

BRN:The Burn modifier
RL:The Reflect/Light Screen modifier
TVT:The 2vs2 modifier
SR:The Sunny Day/Rain Dance modifier
FF:The Flash Fire modifier
RL is:

  • 0.5 if the move performed is physical, the foe has setup a Reflect and the game is 1vs1.
  • 0.5 if the move performed is special, the foe has setup a Light Screen and the game is 1vs1.
  • 2/3 if the move performed is physical, the foe has setup a Reflect and the game is 2vs2.
  • 2/3 if the move performed is special, the foe has setup a Light Screen and the game is 2vs2.
  • 1 otherwise.
Also, if the move is a Critical Hit, RL is made equal to 1 no matter what.

Damage Formula = (((((((Level × 2 ÷ 5) + 2) × BasePower × [Sp]Atk ÷ 50) ÷ [Sp]Def) × Mod1) + 2) ×
CH × Mod2 × R ÷ 100) × STAB × Type1 × Type2 × Mod3

So actually, unless I'm just horribly incapable of thinking at 6:30am in the morning, it seems that if the CH modifier is 2, then Mod1 has value 1 (just like if no screens were up), and thus the damage for a crit is the same irregardless of whether screens are up.
 
that is because shoddy doesnt apply the correct damage formula since sometimes crits after atk drops through superpower or the like do less damage than a normal hit.

iirc
 
The flu had me laddering for the past 24 hours or so (not straight, I swear).

I've had an unbelievable amount of success with a team I constructed last night. It's managed to hit the "top ten" on the Standard OU Ladder with no more than three losses (if that...). It's powered its way through all kinds of teams, and is not at a significant disadvantage to any specific style of play/team.

The team itself is not a Life Orb, Dual Screen varient, but it's very offensive and it fits the concept of what this thread is all about.

You will be able to find the team in the RMT forum when I eventually get around to posting it.
 
Screens halve the damage of any attack, so if something crits, it will essentially do the amount it would do if screens were not up without a crit. RL is still being calculated into Mod1 even if CH is 2

Cool Taylor. I am interested in seeing this team. It has all setup sweepers or all setup sweepers and a lead right? otherwise it is not HO.

EDIT: okay, that is a little bit too purist, but you get what I am saying right?
 
Anachronism said:
Screens halve the damage of any attack, so if something crits, it will essentially do the amount it would do if screens were not up without a crit. RL is still being calculated into Mod1 even if CH is 2

Cool Taylor. I am interested in seeing this team. It has all setup sweepers or all setup sweepers and a lead right? otherwise it is not HO.
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Did you not read my post at all? RL is 1 whether or not screens are up for a critical hit, CH is still 2, therefore damage from crits NEGLECT screens (based on that formula)
 
deoxys-e/wobb/RP groudon/SD Luke/ SD rayquaza / filler?

last spot could go a DS mewtwo, a scarf dialga to prevent your opponent's same strategy, giratina-o so that forry cant shit on your plans etc.
 
I have gotten to 1600 in ubers and ou with heavy offense. In all seriousness I would say that the best measure of a team is success in tournaments
not ladder play.

edit:ddmence is actually really good in ubers, definitly worth using in order to break mewtwo or kill scarf palkia.
 
those teams are really getting out of date though (or at least they were when i last played roughly a month ago). More leads are preparing for deoxys-e and its not as efficient at getting down entry hazards as it used to be
 
Heavy offense works quite well in ubers, I got to 1720 with a dual screen team once.
In OU balanced or defensive teams are often shining the most, since they don´t rely on every pokemon being at full health. Also using scarfers makes it easier to revenge, while in heavy offense any choiced pokemon will be a burden, so you have to hope that every member of your team is able to deal enough damage to any sweeper, which is impossible. Therefore you barely find any users of offensive teams in the top 5 of OU(the last was enzo123 I believe)
 
xianglongfa said:
Did you not read my post at all? RL is 1 whether or not screens are up for a critical hit, CH is still 2, therefore damage from crits NEGLECT screens (based on that formula)
Click to expand...

I did in fact read it. According to that formula, the CH will double but Mod 1 will still be augmented by RL, halving damage, meaning that everything will be balanced out.

Its rather interesting how Uber Physical HO ends up relying on the synergies between Dragon and Ground of all things...

Yeah, the viable physical HO sweepers in Ubers are: Scizor, Lucario, Groudon, Garchomp, Salamence, Rayquaza. Tyranitar
 
Taylor said:
The flu had me laddering for the past 24 hours or so (not straight, I swear).

I've had an unbelievable amount of success with a team I constructed last night. It's managed to hit the "top ten" on the Standard OU Ladder with no more than three losses (if that...). It's powered its way through all kinds of teams, and is not at a significant disadvantage to any specific style of play/team.

The team itself is not a Life Orb, Dual Screen varient, but it's very offensive and it fits the concept of what this thread is all about.

You will be able to find the team in the RMT forum when I eventually get around to posting it.
Click to expand...

0.o

Also, I just realized this thread has over 300 posts. That's fucking unbelievably epic. I sware, this changed the metagame a tad. So many people have been using the team in the OP, and PMing me about UU HO and Uber play. I don't even play in those tiers....
 
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