Yes, and that combination is quite common too, screw bog standard. >_<
The main way to get past them is probably set Empoleon up on Scizor, and run Ice Beam for Latias. I don't believe Ice Beam KOs, but it can be picked off by, say, Jolteon.
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Heavy Offense
- Thread starter The SPrinkLer
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Yes, and that combination is quite common too, screw bog standard. >_<
The main way to get past them is probably set Empoleon up on Scizor, and run Ice Beam for Latias. I don't believe Ice Beam KOs, but it can be picked off by, say, Jolteon.
You make it sound like blisseys the only thing stopping special sweepers. Does this mean that the 85 percent of teams that don't have blissey get outright swept by, say, a specsjolt? Of course not
I'm just saying it's easier to sweep with special threats because of a severe lack of special walls, while physical walls are abundant. (Skarm, Hippo, Gliscor, Foretress, + the abundance of Intimidate) Atleast that's how it was for me a couple months ago, I don't know how much has changed though.
I'm running more OU-Like Hyper Offense in UU, which is supposed to abuse Double-screens to maximum and just keep attacking with only one "wall-breaker" which is Lapras in my team. It works most of times and I really like playing it. Also I'm running a bit bulkier teammates, which makes a good use of double-screens. Team looks like this:
Uxie @ Leftovers
~ Reflect
~ Light Screen
~ U-Turn
~ Stealth Rock
EVs: 252 HP/125 Def/125 SpD Impish
Venusaur @ Life Orb
~ Swords Dance
~ Power Whip
~ Earthquake
~ Return (I don't like to rely on 75% accuracy move to only "stop" counters like Sleep Powder)
EVs: 4 HP/252 Spe/252 Atk Jolly
This Venusaur takes... 46-49% from Timid Life Orbed Flamethrower Houndoom behind Light Screen, which is impressive. Also survives Flare Blitz from more defensive Arcanine.
Blaziken @ Life Orb
~ Swords Dance
~ SuperPower
~ Flare Blitz
~ Quick Attack (but I don't see Dugtrios anymore, they're rare these days) so I think of replacing it on Stone Edge
EVs: 252 Atk/252 Spe Adamant (Adamant guarrantee OHKO on Dugtrio by +2 Quick Attack)
It should be used more. Probably the best member, a total beast. And Blaziken is surprisingly bulky behind screens. And Spiritomb means free set-up, which are common these days.
Mismagius @ Leftovers
~ Nasty Plot
~ Substitute
~ Shadow Ball
~ HP Fighting
EVs: 48 HP/252 SpA/252 Spe Timid (48 HP Evs behind screens gives you ubreakable subs for example Weezing or Special Attacking Clefable)
Rhyperior @ Life Orb
~ Rock Polish
~ Earthquake
~ Stone Edge
~ Megahorn
EVs: 252 Atk/252 Spe Jolly
Another guy, which really love screen support. Heck, behind screens he may set-up on HP Ice Raikou or even Technitop or Low Kick Ambipom.
Lapras @ Life Orb
~ Return
~ Dragon Dance
~ Hydro Pump
~ Ice Beam
EVs: 16 HP/252 Atk/16 SpA/224 Spe Lonely
Wall-breaker. Another really bulky guy behind screens. He can handle even Specs Thunderbolt from Raikou once behind Light Screen and even +6 ExtremeSpeed from Linnone even when switching on SR with Reflect up. But I think of running +Spe Nature as some random fast electric-types are annoying. This guy 2OHKO all metagame with exception of really bulky water types. Teams wall-breaker, but he may also sweep late-game if neccesary.
In some of the earlier pages on this thread, people posted quite a few UU teams. Look back there for some examples on those of you just skipping to the end!
Personally, I haven't gotten a chance to test this in UU. I haven't had the time as of late, and the team I did make I forgot to include Mismagius...fail.
It seems as though people have been experiencing good results, so I will post more when I further playtest HO in UU.
Personally, I haven't gotten a chance to test this in UU. I haven't had the time as of late, and the team I did make I forgot to include Mismagius...fail.
It seems as though people have been experiencing good results, so I will post more when I further playtest HO in UU.
I played quite a bit with HO in OU in the past few weeks and for me the results were pretty crappy. I tried special HO but as some people already stated it just doesn't work, so most of the time I used a DDance-based team. The main problem for me was not defensive stuff like Celebi or Rotom. Stuff like that can be usually defeated if you are going with DDMence first, as DDMence is very broken and have no viable counters.
The main problem was that I was not able to be consistent with my checks without a reliable way to scout the opponent's team before starting making sacrifices. And that's when Balanced/Bulky Offense teams beat the hell out of HO. Like sacrificing Gyara early on the battle to take care of that annoying Offensive Suicune. And then five turns later there is a Scarf Nape destroying my team and making the battle come to the so feared prediction war. See, in theory I had Gyara as a reliable check to Infernape, but I sacrificed it before knowing that my opponent had an Infernape, because if I didn't, I'd lose the precious momentum (and probably some other member of the team).
All-out offense teams that are not exactly HO are a big problem to HO too. You usually have to use unboosted attacks with your HO sweepers because the opponent is threatening you with something like a Lucario or a SubCM Jirachi. You can't DDance in front of these things, you must EQ them right away. And then comes that crazy Scarfer, or worst, that LO Starmie/Gengar/Infernape and starts wearing down your team with big speed and big coverage.
I found out that having fear of using Choice Scarf yourself or having a random wall on your team (what would actually turn the team into a Balanced one) that can take hits from random Scarfers is often an error when playing with offensive teams. The concept of HO is not allowing the oponent to setup by constantly threatening him with your own sweepers. But DDance-based HO (the most common and perhaps most effective) hang around Base 80~100 Speed. So what exactly do you do if the opponent's team is composed of something like Aero/Latias/Starmie/Infernape/Scarfer/Scarfer? You won't be able to get a single Dragon Dance, and will be always outsped and outdamaged.
So, well, my own humble personal opinion here: stall-based teams are better.
The main problem was that I was not able to be consistent with my checks without a reliable way to scout the opponent's team before starting making sacrifices. And that's when Balanced/Bulky Offense teams beat the hell out of HO. Like sacrificing Gyara early on the battle to take care of that annoying Offensive Suicune. And then five turns later there is a Scarf Nape destroying my team and making the battle come to the so feared prediction war. See, in theory I had Gyara as a reliable check to Infernape, but I sacrificed it before knowing that my opponent had an Infernape, because if I didn't, I'd lose the precious momentum (and probably some other member of the team).
All-out offense teams that are not exactly HO are a big problem to HO too. You usually have to use unboosted attacks with your HO sweepers because the opponent is threatening you with something like a Lucario or a SubCM Jirachi. You can't DDance in front of these things, you must EQ them right away. And then comes that crazy Scarfer, or worst, that LO Starmie/Gengar/Infernape and starts wearing down your team with big speed and big coverage.
I found out that having fear of using Choice Scarf yourself or having a random wall on your team (what would actually turn the team into a Balanced one) that can take hits from random Scarfers is often an error when playing with offensive teams. The concept of HO is not allowing the oponent to setup by constantly threatening him with your own sweepers. But DDance-based HO (the most common and perhaps most effective) hang around Base 80~100 Speed. So what exactly do you do if the opponent's team is composed of something like Aero/Latias/Starmie/Infernape/Scarfer/Scarfer? You won't be able to get a single Dragon Dance, and will be always outsped and outdamaged.
So, well, my own humble personal opinion here: stall-based teams are better.
I would figure that if your opponent run that you are very likely to lose. Two scarfers and aero is very hard to combat. However thats an absurd example as thats pretty much a straight counter-team.
Just explaining my own post: when I say that I consider stall-based teams to be 'better', I mean that with a more defensive team will have a bigger chance of success when you consider all the combinations that your opponent may use on his team (not counting obscure stuff, just think about middle-top OU), because in my opinion it's harder to make a straight counter-team to beat stall, as even stuff like Taunt Gliscor can be defeated with smart team building.
With stall/bulky offense/balanced teams, you can play around, revenge kill, sac a wall to cripple something, etc. The possibilities are huge. With HO, if your opponent has a lot of team members that outspeed and do big damage to your whole team (I stated examples above; the example of 6 pokémons was indeed extreme, but only Aero and Starmie together would already give a HUGE advantage against HO), you don't really have a way to play around.
So, when I say 'better', I mean "most likely to win, considering all possible and likely combinations of OU pokémon and OU sets that an opponent can use".
With stall/bulky offense/balanced teams, you can play around, revenge kill, sac a wall to cripple something, etc. The possibilities are huge. With HO, if your opponent has a lot of team members that outspeed and do big damage to your whole team (I stated examples above; the example of 6 pokémons was indeed extreme, but only Aero and Starmie together would already give a HUGE advantage against HO), you don't really have a way to play around.
So, when I say 'better', I mean "most likely to win, considering all possible and likely combinations of OU pokémon and OU sets that an opponent can use".
Aero is an issue but it generally means they are running another offensive team (admittedly thismakes starmie plausible as well). I don't see why that match up is so bad. Generally their team will be frail so i'd save azelf for an oppurtune time later in the game to set up double screens and bring in a sweeper to counter-attack and possibly just win. You have the five best sweepers in OU; most teams that lead aero rely on "playing around" threats but screens make that more or less impossible.
Obviously better match ups exist but that was my usual plan when facing such teams. Midgame DS can really bail you out of some bad match-ups.
Also i agree with you. Stall is much harder to straight up counter-team in my experience. I also think this teams stall match-up is much worse then suggested by this thread (I'd say slightly favorable not a blow-out). Sure we are bringing a bunch of sweepers but stall is designed all of them individually. "bulky offense" on the other hand often doesn't cover cetain sweepers (especially DD-tar) since it needs a mix of offese and defense. This is why I think "Bulky Offense" is HO's best match-up.
ex. Kevin, Please come home (Smeargle/Latias/Scarf Rotom/Salamence/Lucario/Sczor) The team gets smashed apart by Tyranitar. Obviously HO won't always win if Kevin is piloting it but against an equally matched opponent I can't see HO losing.
Obviously better match ups exist but that was my usual plan when facing such teams. Midgame DS can really bail you out of some bad match-ups.
Also i agree with you. Stall is much harder to straight up counter-team in my experience. I also think this teams stall match-up is much worse then suggested by this thread (I'd say slightly favorable not a blow-out). Sure we are bringing a bunch of sweepers but stall is designed all of them individually. "bulky offense" on the other hand often doesn't cover cetain sweepers (especially DD-tar) since it needs a mix of offese and defense. This is why I think "Bulky Offense" is HO's best match-up.
ex. Kevin, Please come home (Smeargle/Latias/Scarf Rotom/Salamence/Lucario/Sczor) The team gets smashed apart by Tyranitar. Obviously HO won't always win if Kevin is piloting it but against an equally matched opponent I can't see HO losing.
In this situation, Gyarados is "normally" sacrificed early game to possibly open up some holes in the opponent's team. So if you have an obvious weakness to Infernape, then sacrificing him early in the match is inadvisable. Also, if a Choice Scarf user runs through your team, often times you have a typing issue.
This is all about how you're playing the match. The key to offensive teams is momentum.
This is once again contingent on your team having good synergy/typing. If the opponent is Scarfed, then you can easily switch to the correct resistance and then thus setup or attack, depending on the situation. However, yes, using Choice users in HO teams is bad unless you plan it to be the primary sweeper, which you bring in very late game.
Once again, this is mainly a team-building issue.
The most important thing about HO is having a team with good offensive and defensive synergy.
I told you guys earlier that I have been trying out a team that is built to bowl over bulky grounds and steels throught the use of two Outragers.
So far I have tested using:
DS Azelf (Taunt over Explosion)
DD Mence (Draco Plate, probably should be Life Orb or Lum Berry)
DD Dragonite (Lum Berry because I needed a status absorber, could be Lefties or LO or Draco Plate if you slap a lum on Mence instead)
SD Scizor (Life Orb, with Superpower + Bug Bite, testing Bug Bite mostly, will probably end up being SD Luke, might also consider another item and Brick Break over Superpower)
RP Aggron (Life Orb, probably going to end up being Metagross or SD Luke, but I wanted to test this guy, actually not too bad, hits hard but ends up getting intimidated too much)
DD Tyranitar (Babiri Berry and Fire Punch, gives aggron a SpD boost and is walled by the same stuff, also provides something that can set up on electric attackers and most special attackers, may change to something else if aggron is taken off)
This team is highly synergistic. Once you kill Swampert, Rotom A, and/or Steels the team has a party. The main problem I found is that the team is 6-0d by Empoleon or Gyarados. Gyarados comes in on Scizor pretty easily, DDs up, and then sweeps me. Using metagross would help me here. Luckily it takes quite a bit from a bug bite and a bullet punch. I may consider taking LO off of Scizor to allow me to survive 2 hits, guaranteeing a victory over a dding gyara. Empoleon can set up on Tyranitar or a tricked Scizor pretty easily and can then sweep me with surf alone. Using Scizor + Luke would be the easiest way to ensure I'm not swept by this. I would also like to somehow improve synergy by focusing entirely on steels. This would probably be done by adding kingdra over ttar.
I encourage anyone to try this team and give me suggestions. I really like it but don't have the time to test it.
I told you guys earlier that I have been trying out a team that is built to bowl over bulky grounds and steels throught the use of two Outragers.
So far I have tested using:
DS Azelf (Taunt over Explosion)
DD Mence (Draco Plate, probably should be Life Orb or Lum Berry)
DD Dragonite (Lum Berry because I needed a status absorber, could be Lefties or LO or Draco Plate if you slap a lum on Mence instead)
SD Scizor (Life Orb, with Superpower + Bug Bite, testing Bug Bite mostly, will probably end up being SD Luke, might also consider another item and Brick Break over Superpower)
RP Aggron (Life Orb, probably going to end up being Metagross or SD Luke, but I wanted to test this guy, actually not too bad, hits hard but ends up getting intimidated too much)
DD Tyranitar (Babiri Berry and Fire Punch, gives aggron a SpD boost and is walled by the same stuff, also provides something that can set up on electric attackers and most special attackers, may change to something else if aggron is taken off)
This team is highly synergistic. Once you kill Swampert, Rotom A, and/or Steels the team has a party. The main problem I found is that the team is 6-0d by Empoleon or Gyarados. Gyarados comes in on Scizor pretty easily, DDs up, and then sweeps me. Using metagross would help me here. Luckily it takes quite a bit from a bug bite and a bullet punch. I may consider taking LO off of Scizor to allow me to survive 2 hits, guaranteeing a victory over a dding gyara. Empoleon can set up on Tyranitar or a tricked Scizor pretty easily and can then sweep me with surf alone. Using Scizor + Luke would be the easiest way to ensure I'm not swept by this. I would also like to somehow improve synergy by focusing entirely on steels. This would probably be done by adding kingdra over ttar.
I encourage anyone to try this team and give me suggestions. I really like it but don't have the time to test it.
Wait, you tested using it, but you don't have the time to test it ?_?
Have you ever played HO before? After a single turn of setup, the entire team OHKOs LOmie. If LOmie is the first poke then I have screens on it. The only time it could possibly cause me huge problems is if there was a double-ko, which doesn't happen that often. I recognize that the team has problems.
I have tested the team a bit, but I don't have the time to test it anymore.
I may want to try Lucario or Metagross over Aggron and then change Tyranitar to Kingdra. Making these changes would allow me to not get swept as easily by mixApe and LOmie, whcih is a slight problem, even though double kos don't happen that often.
Aggron has so far been a weak link, and I really only used tar to support aggron and to set up on Zappy, but Kingdra does that too. Double priority would also be nice. All of these changes would probably help the team immensely. Someone please test this!
Min: Avg: Max:
Raw damage: 285 309 336
Percentages: 80.51% 87.29% 94.92%
252/0 Azelf.
Min: Avg: Max:
Raw damage: 255 276 301
Percentages: 88.24% 95.50% 104.15%
32/0 HP Scizor.
Min: Avg: Max:
Raw damage: 288 308 338
Percentages: 84.46% 90.32% 99.12%
0/0 Tyranitar.
Unless your team stops SR from being put at the field 100% of the time, I really don't see any of these OHKOing Starmie that easily before being OHKOed themselves.
Bug Bite gets boosted by Technician, making it Scizor's most powerful STAB attack.
I LOVE your OP, sprinkles! I've been using that exact same strategy for over a year now, cool to see that you've given it a name. I read through that whole post smiling because EVERY strategy you listed is what I love to do. I started out playing that way because I don't play pokemon to tip-toe around using dumb moves like U-Turn, Spikes, Protect, and spend all day switching. I just want to attack. In the beginning I was pretty noobish about it. But then once I got my sea legs on shoddy, I started to realize that the less I switched, the more successful I was doing. I would occasionally have to let a full-strength pokemon suffer a 1-hit KO just to bring in the next guy. And who cares?! It's more fun that way anyway.
I've been using a "Heavy Offense" team for the last 14+ months, haven't changed a thing on them. I'll send it to you to see what you think.
I've been using a "Heavy Offense" team for the last 14+ months, haven't changed a thing on them. I'll send it to you to see what you think.
If LOmie leads against max hp azelf, there's a 2.5% chance of no support at all(starmie wins speed tie and crits), and given that light screen will always be used first, there is a 25% chance of no SR:
(.8 * .0625) + (.5 * .8 * (1 - .0625) * .5) + (.5 * .8 * .9375 * .5 * .8 * .0625) = 0.2468
In the midgame after screens expire, are you sure you're going to be dragon dancing every time you come in when you don't know the rest of your opponent's pokemon? Sounds like a poor way to play to me. A nonleading LOmie becomes a huge threat to HO during mid-lategame, a fact that you really need to accept. Once screens go down, I'm pretty sure that the opponent can just trickscarf, scarf explode, or explode a wall (like bronzong), bring in starmie, and completely decimate the remaining members of your HO team.(especially if they have SR up on you)
LOmie (and MixApe) are certainly problems, but my point was that there are ways around them.
Also, during the "midgame after screens expire" I should know 3-4 members of the opponent's team already, since Salamence and Dragonite have a way of doing that. And to answer you question, yes, if it is likely the opponent has a starmie (you can usually tell just by looking at the first 3 pokes), and usually otherwise, I will take a free turn to dd/sd up. There are very few consequences for doing it really, so I fail to see how it is a "poor way to play." The only problem is if they have a scarfer that can take me out, but they generally are forced to reveal that early.
I had about an hour to playtest the other day, and I decided that Aggron was not worth it. I have changed it to standard Lucario. This helps against starmie too, as I can double-priority kill it with scizor/luke
But seriously xianglongfa, have you ever used a HO team before?
Also, the crit chance is 6.25%, so it is actually 2.5% that you win tie, hit, and crit. This only results in a difference of .004ish (from .2505 to .2468) for your equation though.
Could you explain to me what the third term is for? I only see 3 ways to fail to get up rocks if we neglect rapid spin.
1 Speed Win, Hit, Crit turn 1
2 Speed Win, Hit, Crit turn 2
3 Speed Win and hit turn 1, Speed win and hit turn 2
Rapid Spin generally means that this scenario doesn't matter though.
Also, during the "midgame after screens expire" I should know 3-4 members of the opponent's team already, since Salamence and Dragonite have a way of doing that. And to answer you question, yes, if it is likely the opponent has a starmie (you can usually tell just by looking at the first 3 pokes), and usually otherwise, I will take a free turn to dd/sd up. There are very few consequences for doing it really, so I fail to see how it is a "poor way to play." The only problem is if they have a scarfer that can take me out, but they generally are forced to reveal that early.
I had about an hour to playtest the other day, and I decided that Aggron was not worth it. I have changed it to standard Lucario. This helps against starmie too, as I can double-priority kill it with scizor/luke
But seriously xianglongfa, have you ever used a HO team before?
Also, the crit chance is 6.25%, so it is actually 2.5% that you win tie, hit, and crit. This only results in a difference of .004ish (from .2505 to .2468) for your equation though.
Could you explain to me what the third term is for? I only see 3 ways to fail to get up rocks if we neglect rapid spin.
1 Speed Win, Hit, Crit turn 1
2 Speed Win, Hit, Crit turn 2
3 Speed Win and hit turn 1, Speed win and hit turn 2
Rapid Spin generally means that this scenario doesn't matter though.
Maybe it means that if you DD up you get only one 1.5x hit instead of 2 1x hits? And explain to me how you can usually tell your opponent has a starmie "just from their first 3 revealed pokes" I have a hard time believing that....
Yes. It doesn't really mean much but I got an alt to ~1600 CRE with it. Doesn't mean it's not an unreliable playstyle because sometimes you don't get as much scouting done on your opponent as you would like...
EDIT:
you don't need to win the speed tie on turn 1, you just need to crit. This is because we're going by the assumption that the azelf user is competent and will set up light screen first.(crit goes through screens)
(.8 * .0625)
Or you could win the 1st speed tie and not crit, then hit them with a 100% accurate move after winning the second speed tie
(.5 * .8 * (1 - .0625) * .5)
Or the last option, you could lose the first speed tie, then crit them second turn after winning the second speed tie with hydro pump.
(.5 * .8 * .9375 * .5 * .8 * .0625)
Since these are mutually exclusive events, their probabilities are additive, and thus the chances of starmie KOing azelf before rocks are up is about 25%. (hopefully I didn't do anything stupid here, someone tell me if I'm wrong)
crit does not go through screens, or at least not the way you think. A crit through screens will do the same amount of damage as a normal non-critical attack. For example, heatran's fireblast normally does 80% without screens against azelf, if light screen is up it will do 40%ish. And if it crits it will do 80%ish. Sorry to nitpick. And yes, about 25% of the time starmie will prevent azelf from setting up rocks.
I think people are exaggerating the dangers of LO starmie, its threatening but not impossible to play around. Kingdra easily sets up all over it, and the ones that run surf won't KO metagross. If they do run hydro pump then they should theoretically miss eventually. It should be noted that hydro pump hitting 3 times in a row is unlikely.
I think people are exaggerating the dangers of LO starmie, its threatening but not impossible to play around. Kingdra easily sets up all over it, and the ones that run surf won't KO metagross. If they do run hydro pump then they should theoretically miss eventually. It should be noted that hydro pump hitting 3 times in a row is unlikely.
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