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Heavy Offense
- Thread starter The SPrinkLer
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Well, Kingdra doesn't have Intimidate, so it can't fend off Scizors and Lucarios. On the other hand, Kingdra isn't weak to Stealth Rock, has higher defenses, and overall, a more useful defensive typing. Kingdra vs. Salamence really comes down to what your team needs. For example, I run Kingdra + Gyarados to great effect, as Kingdra can easily set up on Vaporeon and Starmie, while both can wear down Celebi pretty well(Kingdra with Outrage, Gyarados with Bounce). I typically prefer Kingdra on a balanced team, as water + dragon is one of the best types offensively and defensively, but if I am running a team with pokemon like Lucaro, Metagross, or Heatran(steels), I prefer Salamence for Intimidate, and ground/fighting resistances.
Unfortunately, Torterra performs rather abysmal on these types of teams. Being walled by Breloom, Celebi, Bronzong, and Skarmory sucks, along with the fact that most Scarfers still outspeed(Latias, Infernape, Salamence, Flygon, Gengar), plus Stone Edge is very annoying to use against Gyarados/Salamence, who can both survive.
Dragonite is better as a wall-breaker, to use alongside pokemon like Agility Metagross, while Salamence works better as a finisher, to clean up after SD Luke. Atleast that's how I see it.
Unfortunately, Torterra performs rather abysmal on these types of teams. Being walled by Breloom, Celebi, Bronzong, and Skarmory sucks, along with the fact that most Scarfers still outspeed(Latias, Infernape, Salamence, Flygon, Gengar), plus Stone Edge is very annoying to use against Gyarados/Salamence, who can both survive.
Dragonite is better as a wall-breaker, to use alongside pokemon like Agility Metagross, while Salamence works better as a finisher, to clean up after SD Luke. Atleast that's how I see it.
My first "good" team was a rain HO team I made ages ago. It along with a Balanced team (I made with BK) got me to the leaderboard (back when I used to ladder more seriously than I do nowadays). So perhaps I can comment a bit on the style and what not. I think it's important for everyone to know that my experience with HO does not involve a DS Azelf lead or any other DS user for that matter, I've opted for a simple lead set (Explosion / Fire Blast / Stealth Rock / Taunt) because I absolutely hate getting shut down by fast Taunt leads. That's another thing, I love Explosion/Selfdestruct on HO teams like this. The sheer power is just great to have on such an offensive team and has allowed me many times to recapture the momentum of the battle if I've lost it due to luck, unforeseen circumstances, etc. Anyways moving on........
First of all, I fully agree with goofball, HO is all about attacking (many times mindlessly, since the long term thinking part only kicks in later on in the game when a significant part of the opposing team has been revealed) or at least that's how I played it before. I also agree that HO tends to keep matches fast-paced and were in my experience generally a do or die situation most of the time (you would be hard pressed to recover if you lose momentum with this type of team, especially against good players, I'm not saying it's impossible just challenging). In fact, I would say momentum is the number one thing when it comes to HO, as important or perhaps even more so than long term thinking, why? Well first of all it's silly and unrealistic to have a long term (end game) plan to beat the opponent in the opening rounds, simply because you don't know which counters your opponent is packing (I would go so far as to say it's impossible, but feel free to prove me wrong). Sadly this is made even more difficult (if not completely impossible) by HO's biggest flaw, the inability to scout as effectively as say Bulkier teams.
I have faced a good amount of HO teams (perhaps this thread had something to do with it) and the biggest mistake I noticed the newer players were making was that they intentionally avoided prediction. Going for the kill always. I guess a part of that mentality was due to this thread as well, but it doesn't matter. The important thing is that people should realize that HO does not remove prediction, it significantly reduces the guesswork involved yes, but trying not to predict at all is both deadly and foolish (if you plan to win at least). Probably the most important thing I can stress for newer players trying this style out is that you should not always be looking to just set up and sweep. Any decently made team will always have checks to the big time threats usually seen in HO. In fact, through my testing I've found that just plain old attacking during the early part of the game usually gives me more benefits than setting up and being forced out (or risk being KO'd by whatever switched in). Mindless sacrificing is never good (what happens if you're "long term plan" proves impossible because you hadn't counted on the possiblity that your opponent's last unrevealed Pokemon completely blocks your end game sweeper, and you can only break through with a previously sac'd Mon?). In short, if you plan on winning (against decent opponents rather consistently) you shouldn't limit yourself. If prediction will win you the game then go ahead and use it. There is no actual rule against it when you're playing HO.
The hardest part with HO imo is the team building process, not so much the playing as when I used to play it everything was usually automatic. That brings up another thing, HO is very team matchup dependent imo (you could argue that all sorts of teams are like this but I think HO is even more dependent on it as compared to something like Bulky Offense). This is probably one of the biggest reasons why HO isn't seeing that much use as compared to the other styles. It just usually doesn't have what it takes to win consistently over a long period of time. This was my biggest issue with HO and hence why I alternated between an HO team and a non HO team during my ladder run. Sure I went through 10-0 runs with my HO team but then I would also go on losing streaks to well built teams (without having to result to hax to win) and when your at the level of play it's just unacceptable to go on "consistent" losing streaks due to matchup, etc.
It's important to note that everything above is based on my opinion only (although I did try to be as impartial as I could) through my experience with this type of team. If you feel that I am misinformed in any way feel free to let me know.
Thanks take care ^^.
First of all, I fully agree with goofball, HO is all about attacking (many times mindlessly, since the long term thinking part only kicks in later on in the game when a significant part of the opposing team has been revealed) or at least that's how I played it before. I also agree that HO tends to keep matches fast-paced and were in my experience generally a do or die situation most of the time (you would be hard pressed to recover if you lose momentum with this type of team, especially against good players, I'm not saying it's impossible just challenging). In fact, I would say momentum is the number one thing when it comes to HO, as important or perhaps even more so than long term thinking, why? Well first of all it's silly and unrealistic to have a long term (end game) plan to beat the opponent in the opening rounds, simply because you don't know which counters your opponent is packing (I would go so far as to say it's impossible, but feel free to prove me wrong). Sadly this is made even more difficult (if not completely impossible) by HO's biggest flaw, the inability to scout as effectively as say Bulkier teams.
I have faced a good amount of HO teams (perhaps this thread had something to do with it) and the biggest mistake I noticed the newer players were making was that they intentionally avoided prediction. Going for the kill always. I guess a part of that mentality was due to this thread as well, but it doesn't matter. The important thing is that people should realize that HO does not remove prediction, it significantly reduces the guesswork involved yes, but trying not to predict at all is both deadly and foolish (if you plan to win at least). Probably the most important thing I can stress for newer players trying this style out is that you should not always be looking to just set up and sweep. Any decently made team will always have checks to the big time threats usually seen in HO. In fact, through my testing I've found that just plain old attacking during the early part of the game usually gives me more benefits than setting up and being forced out (or risk being KO'd by whatever switched in). Mindless sacrificing is never good (what happens if you're "long term plan" proves impossible because you hadn't counted on the possiblity that your opponent's last unrevealed Pokemon completely blocks your end game sweeper, and you can only break through with a previously sac'd Mon?). In short, if you plan on winning (against decent opponents rather consistently) you shouldn't limit yourself. If prediction will win you the game then go ahead and use it. There is no actual rule against it when you're playing HO.
The hardest part with HO imo is the team building process, not so much the playing as when I used to play it everything was usually automatic. That brings up another thing, HO is very team matchup dependent imo (you could argue that all sorts of teams are like this but I think HO is even more dependent on it as compared to something like Bulky Offense). This is probably one of the biggest reasons why HO isn't seeing that much use as compared to the other styles. It just usually doesn't have what it takes to win consistently over a long period of time. This was my biggest issue with HO and hence why I alternated between an HO team and a non HO team during my ladder run. Sure I went through 10-0 runs with my HO team but then I would also go on losing streaks to well built teams (without having to result to hax to win) and when your at the level of play it's just unacceptable to go on "consistent" losing streaks due to matchup, etc.
It's important to note that everything above is based on my opinion only (although I did try to be as impartial as I could) through my experience with this type of team. If you feel that I am misinformed in any way feel free to let me know.
Thanks take care ^^.
I've only just started to try heavy offence (I'm pretty bad at team making, it pretty much was a whole heap of Pokemon that I had ingame). The best thing about it for me is that it's fun! Stall can get boring, but heavy offence just stays fun.
Although, I'm not sure if it *should* be classified as heavy offence, it was mainly Choice users over LO users, so there was much more switching than sacrificing. Still, fun, that's what matters to me.
Although, I'm not sure if it *should* be classified as heavy offence, it was mainly Choice users over LO users, so there was much more switching than sacrificing. Still, fun, that's what matters to me.
I agree with Serv in that you shouldnt make mindless sacrifices if you can avoid it. Why let Lucario die to a Fire Blast from Heatran when know you can switch to Latias? Mindless sacrificing is silly because with HO, you put on so much pressure that you CAN accurately predict what your opponent will do so that you don't need to sacrifice.
when playing ho, you shouldnt do anything mindlessly. to be honest, you shouldnt be doing anythng mindlessly when playing pkmn, ever. however, oftentimes the best way to win is through sacrifices, whether it's to break a wall or to get a guy in on a scarfer without taking prior damage.
anyways, It's clear from this thread that I have a lot of pkmn to learn, so expect no more idiocy from this dumb user ~_~
anyways, It's clear from this thread that I have a lot of pkmn to learn, so expect no more idiocy from this dumb user ~_~
I think making uncalculated sacrifices is a very good way to lose (believe me, I do it all the time). You are intending to limit prediction with HO, but making obvious ones continues to be a useful play (assuming your current Poke has enough HP left to be worth saving and/or is fast enough that getting one additional attack out of it later is probable- there's no need to retain guys that are actually useless unless the switch-in doesn't take any damage, i.e. is immune). The point of sacrificing is to:
1) Kill off the one Poke that walls your team, opening up a sweep (e.g. if Rotom is the guy that stops your team - as he so often is - sacrificing a monster or two to finish him off is acceptable if it results in you being able to set up Scizor or Lucario or Gyarados and tear the rest of their team apart).
2) Avoid mispredicting or taking unnecessary damage in situations where you can follow up with a sweep. This is most often to scout for Choice items, both to see if they have one and to see what they lock into. It's important to note that it is not always necessary to sacrifice this way to guarantee that they do what you expect. A lot depends on how reasonable it is for them to make the non-obvious move, and the severity of the consequences for you if they do, and the significance of the reward.
3) Least exciting, you often sacrifice your support Pokemon for the purpose of shielding your attackers for as long as possible. Nothing fancy here.
At the risk of giving really obvious advice (or worse, being wrong in my analysis), I'm going to toss out an example here. Say Scizor comes in vs. your weakened Starmie. He's almost certainly going to Bullet Punch, so you could go to Empoleon right away to try to save your frail monster. That is almost certainly wrong, because on the off-chance that they U-Turn or Superpower, your Empoleon plan is going to fall apart. You are better off sacrificing Starmie to make sure they're locked into Bullet Punch first, then going for the sweep when you know they can't stop you. The sacrifice in this situation is the safe and prudent play, not a reckless one.
In this example, Bullet Punch might be the most likely, but U-Turning is still a sensible move for them, and if they U-Turn, probably you will never get Empoleon off because it relies on catching people off-guard. Even Superpower could be reasonable for them, as long as they kill Starmie anyway, since it protects against switched-in Magnezones, and obviously this causes disaster for the penguin. Meanwhile, the cost of sacrificing a weakened Starmie is minimal (particularly since Empoleon after an Agility is essentially a better Starmie anyway), and the reward for setting Empoleon up (by the time you're considering it) should be a prompt victory.
On the other hand, if you had a full HP Starmie out and they brought in Scizor, they're much more likely to U-Turn to avoid locking into Bullet Punch, because they're going to have to take a hit from you either way (Bullet Punch doesn't kill you, and you don't kill them either). In this situation, there's little to be gained from sacrificing Starmie (unless you absolutely need to beat up Scizor for some reason), so you don't need to sacrifice, you just play normally and send in a U-Turn resist.
1) Kill off the one Poke that walls your team, opening up a sweep (e.g. if Rotom is the guy that stops your team - as he so often is - sacrificing a monster or two to finish him off is acceptable if it results in you being able to set up Scizor or Lucario or Gyarados and tear the rest of their team apart).
2) Avoid mispredicting or taking unnecessary damage in situations where you can follow up with a sweep. This is most often to scout for Choice items, both to see if they have one and to see what they lock into. It's important to note that it is not always necessary to sacrifice this way to guarantee that they do what you expect. A lot depends on how reasonable it is for them to make the non-obvious move, and the severity of the consequences for you if they do, and the significance of the reward.
3) Least exciting, you often sacrifice your support Pokemon for the purpose of shielding your attackers for as long as possible. Nothing fancy here.
At the risk of giving really obvious advice (or worse, being wrong in my analysis), I'm going to toss out an example here. Say Scizor comes in vs. your weakened Starmie. He's almost certainly going to Bullet Punch, so you could go to Empoleon right away to try to save your frail monster. That is almost certainly wrong, because on the off-chance that they U-Turn or Superpower, your Empoleon plan is going to fall apart. You are better off sacrificing Starmie to make sure they're locked into Bullet Punch first, then going for the sweep when you know they can't stop you. The sacrifice in this situation is the safe and prudent play, not a reckless one.
In this example, Bullet Punch might be the most likely, but U-Turning is still a sensible move for them, and if they U-Turn, probably you will never get Empoleon off because it relies on catching people off-guard. Even Superpower could be reasonable for them, as long as they kill Starmie anyway, since it protects against switched-in Magnezones, and obviously this causes disaster for the penguin. Meanwhile, the cost of sacrificing a weakened Starmie is minimal (particularly since Empoleon after an Agility is essentially a better Starmie anyway), and the reward for setting Empoleon up (by the time you're considering it) should be a prompt victory.
On the other hand, if you had a full HP Starmie out and they brought in Scizor, they're much more likely to U-Turn to avoid locking into Bullet Punch, because they're going to have to take a hit from you either way (Bullet Punch doesn't kill you, and you don't kill them either). In this situation, there's little to be gained from sacrificing Starmie (unless you absolutely need to beat up Scizor for some reason), so you don't need to sacrifice, you just play normally and send in a U-Turn resist.
One thing I don't like is that often the "right" move isn't nescessarily the move you want to make. If they send i latias on Gyarados do you assume its scarfed or not. If you swich you risk ruining the whole point of the team. If you don't it could be game right there.
Has anybody else become disillusioned with gyrados. He's walled pretty bad by celebi/vaporean who aren't exactly nice to the team in general.
Has anybody else become disillusioned with gyrados. He's walled pretty bad by celebi/vaporean who aren't exactly nice to the team in general.
Agreed with everything Serv said.
Problem I see is that Gyarados acts as a failsafe of sorts against opposing Scizors. Ideally, you're not supposed to give your opponent any opportunity to set up but I find that isn't always the case. -_-; None of the other Scizor counters are physical based and can set-up a sweep.
Vaporeon isn't too much of an issue since Wish doesn't heal very quickly and Protect gives you another turn to set up. Toxic is nearly worthless against HO teams and if it's running Surf/HP Elec as its attacks, Kingdra and Mence can set up.
Celebi OTOH, can heal more efficiently with Recover and can terrorize many HO members with T-Wave. Pretty much the main reason I'm running SD Gliscor w/ Night Slash. Tried Electivire for a while as an Electric resist but the thing is too fragile, too slow if Motor Boost isn't activated and Meditate is lol. Torterra is walled too easily as others have said. Rhyperior doesn't like Grass Knot. Any other good physical Pokemon that can switch into T-Wave Celebi?
Problem I see is that Gyarados acts as a failsafe of sorts against opposing Scizors. Ideally, you're not supposed to give your opponent any opportunity to set up but I find that isn't always the case. -_-; None of the other Scizor counters are physical based and can set-up a sweep.
Vaporeon isn't too much of an issue since Wish doesn't heal very quickly and Protect gives you another turn to set up. Toxic is nearly worthless against HO teams and if it's running Surf/HP Elec as its attacks, Kingdra and Mence can set up.
Celebi OTOH, can heal more efficiently with Recover and can terrorize many HO members with T-Wave. Pretty much the main reason I'm running SD Gliscor w/ Night Slash. Tried Electivire for a while as an Electric resist but the thing is too fragile, too slow if Motor Boost isn't activated and Meditate is lol. Torterra is walled too easily as others have said. Rhyperior doesn't like Grass Knot. Any other good physical Pokemon that can switch into T-Wave Celebi?
Do what I do. Use Bounce. IT's SO underrated. Nobody I know has ever predicting Bounce.
Physical HO has a lot of trouble because almost all the pokes have 4x weaknesses which can be easily exploited, in addition to normal counters. The worst part is for instance with a scarf rotom against gyara, you won'ot even weaken the rotom as it tbolts you to oblivion. Then say you go to your ddtar. Then either a scizor ruins it or a swampert switches in, and you've lost 2 pokes without really doing anything overall. This is without even taking into account strong status distributors like celebi, roserade, etc..
This is one of the problems I've seen with all the physical HO teams I've faced in OU, too many of these pokes are just stopped cold by common pokemon. Another problem is bulky phasers. When I play these teams I just let their DS Azelf do its thing, then I send in Swampert and spam roar. It makes their screens useless and racks up rock damage, and usually these teams have a lot of trouble taking down pert, so i can usually keep this up for a while. When it's all said and done their Salamence or Gyarados is virtually useless due to all the rock damage and they have no screens to protect them
Will swampert be able to take lo waterfalls, earthquakes, and ccs for long? no and that is usually what you do when there is a phazer . (This is one of the reasons why i run torterra)BEat them down, and they wont hold up for long.
No and I mentioned that in my post. It's obviously not beating HO teams on its own, but it's stopping set-up attempts (especially cause people try to set-up first instead of attacking until they know I'm carrying roar), running out the timer on screens, and wearing the other team down, which is going to make it harder for them to get set-up opportunities once my phaser's gone.
I'd say the biggest problems for the team are (in rough order):
Scarf-Rotom
Scarf Jirachi
Hippowdon
Swampert
Machamp
Cresslia (nobody uses it so I don't care)
Gengar (scarfed and not both suck)
Lesser issues include:
Scarf Flygon
Skarmory
Gliscor
Empolean
Vaporean
Aggron
Infernape
Scizor
Jolteon
There are certainly others I'm missing but those are all pretty serious risks. Which is why I feel stall is a much harder game then people give it credit for.
Scarf-Rotom
Scarf Jirachi
Hippowdon
Swampert
Machamp
Cresslia (nobody uses it so I don't care)
Gengar (scarfed and not both suck)
Lesser issues include:
Scarf Flygon
Skarmory
Gliscor
Empolean
Vaporean
Aggron
Infernape
Scizor
Jolteon
There are certainly others I'm missing but those are all pretty serious risks. Which is why I feel stall is a much harder game then people give it credit for.
anyone considering trying HO in UU? HO in UU is great (with the addition of gallade) here is a sample team
Pinsir (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk/252 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Stealth Rock
- Protect
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
---
Blaziken (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk/252 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Overheat
- Superpower
- Flare Blitz
- Stone Edge
---
Azumarill (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 HP/252 Atk/4 SDef
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Aqua Jet
- Substitute
- Focus Punch
- Waterfall
---
Leafeon (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Leaf Guard
EVs: 252 Atk/252 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Leaf Blade
- Swords Dance
- X-Scissor
- Return
---
Honchkrow (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Insomnia
EVs: 252 Atk/252 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Drill Peck
- Sucker Punch
- Pursuit
- Superpower
---
Gallade (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Steadfast
EVs: 100 HP/252 Atk/156 Def
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Shadow Sneak
- Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Drain Punch
--- In uu ive noticed one need to have designated "softeners" that do nothing but kill a few pokes then sac themselves. Not going for the sweep instead allowing another to set up and sweep (in this team honchcrow and blaziken soften for a gallade sweep a ton)
Pinsir (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk/252 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Stealth Rock
- Protect
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
---
Blaziken (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk/252 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Overheat
- Superpower
- Flare Blitz
- Stone Edge
---
Azumarill (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 HP/252 Atk/4 SDef
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Aqua Jet
- Substitute
- Focus Punch
- Waterfall
---
Leafeon (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Leaf Guard
EVs: 252 Atk/252 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Leaf Blade
- Swords Dance
- X-Scissor
- Return
---
Honchkrow (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Insomnia
EVs: 252 Atk/252 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Drill Peck
- Sucker Punch
- Pursuit
- Superpower
---
Gallade (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Steadfast
EVs: 100 HP/252 Atk/156 Def
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Shadow Sneak
- Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Drain Punch
--- In uu ive noticed one need to have designated "softeners" that do nothing but kill a few pokes then sac themselves. Not going for the sweep instead allowing another to set up and sweep (in this team honchcrow and blaziken soften for a gallade sweep a ton)
except scarf latias shuts down 2 threats without breaking a sweat: gyara and sala, then scarf-rotom or zapdos neuters scizor/lucario, or a scarfrachi counters every single setup sweeper altogether. Swampert doesn't just phaze either; he simply takes out ttar and salamence, and phazes out the rest.
And the most important reason why HO loses is because you have no counter threat so if the opponent gets one decent set up you're fucked. Babiritar gets a ddance? 2-3 pokes down, if not all of them. Sala get a ddance? 2-3 pokes. Gyara get a dance? 6-0 sweep. There is no lead that can guarantee momentum against all leads, and you have no support mons to counter a lead that counters your's, which assures that you will lose a solid percentage of a time.
And the most important reason why HO loses is because you have no counter threat so if the opponent gets one decent set up you're fucked. Babiritar gets a ddance? 2-3 pokes down, if not all of them. Sala get a ddance? 2-3 pokes. Gyara get a dance? 6-0 sweep. There is no lead that can guarantee momentum against all leads, and you have no support mons to counter a lead that counters your's, which assures that you will lose a solid percentage of a time.
I guess you're trying to imply that the HO team was poorly built? Obviously successful HO teams will have ways to deal with these situations, and will obviously have unique ways to benefit from them. I'm sorry, but not all offensive teams look the same.
Once again, this shows how little you know about HO teams. The whole premise to HO teams is essentially not allowing your opponent to setup. If you allow said Salamence to get a Dragon Dance, you either have poor battling skills or didn't create a well-built team.
A good HO team will not let shit like Salamence set up. There simply is no room for error when making a HO team as well. If one Pokemon can set up on any of yours, then you're done. This is why good teams are more important in HO than other styles. If you're an amazing predictor, then bulky offense is more suited for you, and it doesn't require as good of a team.
Not true, Blissey isn't the only thing stopping those special attackers anymore. There's a bigger problem for special HO now - Latias. A combination of Latias and Scizor makes special HO quite difficult to play because the frail special attackers who may have the power to get past Latias can be shut down by Scizor's Bullet punch while the bulkier special attackers that can handle a Bullet punch or two struggle to get past Latias.
Heh well I don't play OU anymore so I guess i'm a bit out of the loop. >_<
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