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Heavy Offense

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I have gotten to 1600 in ubers and ou with heavy offense. In all seriousness I would say that the best measure of a team is success in tournaments
not ladder play.

edit:ddmence is actually really good in ubers, definitly worth using in order to break mewtwo or kill scarf palkia.
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I wondered to be honest if every team in Ubers HO needs to run Wobbufett. And maybe it's worth a try to play it like in OU.

About Salamence in Ubers - it's not that outclassed as it has one small niche. It's the fastest usefull (don't count Lati twins for dragon dancing) Dragon Dancer in game. Palkia at best may only tie with Salamence, unlike Rayquaza, which is slower. And Salamence has enough power and great STAB for Ubers play. I think it's possible to use Salamence for Ubers HO, but I need to test it though. Anyway, it's interesting idea ;).
 
I'm thinking about building a HO team in OU, but I have a couple questions.

How does a special HO team beat Latias [preferably without having to explode]?

Also, would it be viable to put in a special HO team a physical sweeper to stop Latias [such as a revenge killing Weavile]?

Thanks for any answers.
 
Maxim said:
I'm thinking about building a HO team in OU, but I have a couple questions.

How does a special HO team beat Latias [preferably without having to explode]?

Also, would it be viable to put in a special HO team a physical sweeper to stop Latias [such as a revenge killing Weavile]?

Thanks for any answers.
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It is perfectly viable to use Scizor in a special based HO team, especially if the majority of your sweepers are walled by Latias. I would, however, recommend a section or third option to take it out, just in case said Latias happens to carry Hidden Power Fire.
 
Anachronism said:
I did in fact read it. According to that formula, the CH will double but Mod 1 will still be augmented by RL, halving damage, meaning that everything will be balanced out.
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ugggh... so i'm copying exactly what I wrote again

RL is:

  • 0.5 if the move performed is physical, the foe has setup a Reflect and the game is 1vs1.
  • 0.5 if the move performed is special, the foe has setup a Light Screen and the game is 1vs1.
  • 2/3 if the move performed is physical, the foe has setup a Reflect and the game is 2vs2.
  • 2/3 if the move performed is special, the foe has setup a Light Screen and the game is 2vs2.
  • 1 otherwise.
Also, if the move is a Critical Hit, RL is made equal to 1 no matter what.

RL is 1 in the case of critical hit with screens, and is also 1 when there are no screens...

Therefore the Mod1's for both cases are the same.

I really hope I don't have to post about this again...
 
Limitless said:
It is perfectly viable to use Scizor in a special based HO team, especially if the majority of your sweepers are walled by Latias. I would, however, recommend a section or third option to take it out, just in case said Latias happens to carry Hidden Power Fire.
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I actually find it more useful to run CB/physically based mix Infernape in the middle of a special HO team. It beats the crap out of special walls, and if you spam U-turn, you can get Latias to take enough damage for the rest of your sweepers to finish it off.
 
Scizor checks blissey, latias, ttar, and celebi, pretty much the only 4 OU pokes which give special pokes trouble, so yes ifyou're running special HO I heavily recommend using scizor, either occa, life orb, or if you have other checks for them CB works too. Funny enough heracross dominates all 3 of those as well, as does almost any form of metagross. Both are less versatile than scizor without u-turn but heracross owns WoW rotoms hardcore and metagross doesn't get owned quite as bad by the surprise hidden power, and is a better generic dragon counter.
 
Okay then, I admittedly missed the bolded part xiang. Sorry. In that case it would seem that you are correct, but I don't remember it ever being that way in shoddy. If it is then I clearly haven't been paying attention...
 
Ive been trying HO teams, read through this thread, and it seems I used to do this stuff back when I played d/p only, chomp and all.

Its far different now, and Im wondering, what would the most reliable lead be. There is no lead that really guarentees you a setup without sacrificing a move or two.

With Azelf, its already been discussed that Aero is a pain, but what about Trick Jirachi leads, Tyranitar leads, We even lose to freaking Smeargles with a scarf and Roserades.

Everyone expects set up Azelf these days and they think the worst that can happen is you explode, which is dumb to do anyways since their lead is often just used to set up with sr early, absorb status and whatnot.

Anyways, are there any more reliable leads, was thinking to use Bronzong with Lum, screens, sr, and gyro ball, but iono, sounds horrible, and my ideas always suck so yeah.

Also, if we lose a speed tie vs other Azelf and they taunt us, you get screwed hard as he sets up sr on your team and you have to switch to something that can take a psychic (metagross), which is often going to be fire blasted anyways.

I know theres no PERFECT lead for this team with like 1 bad lead to fight but Ive been facing a TON lately, its dumb.

Anyways I was thinking to actually LEAD with Gyarados or something of the sort. It gets an intimidate off, can taunt, and can attack vs other taunters, can set up early if its your kind of thing, I dont prefer to, and opposes an actual threat as opposed to Azelf who people know just try to set up now. On the downside we get no screens OR sr. It lures out their bulky waters so you know what to expect early, iono, this games so hard xD
 
I know I'm in the minority, but I don't like the lead Azelf either. It just doesn't seem useful enough to warrant a slot. It gets SR down and gets to screen or Taunt, but rarely both, and it's dead. I mean, it has neither durability nor offensive potential, so while the "dream scenario" (screen as they attack, Taunt as they SR, drop your own rocks, get the other screen and die) is pretty good, it also never happens, so what you get instead is a weak support Poke on a team that hungers for Pokemon slots as it is.

I have tried bulkier screeners and had some success. Bronzong is super vulnerable to Taunt, but it at least has the potential to screen multiple times, which frequently results in game win. I would probably use SR/Reflect/Light Screen/Explosion- I know this violates the "no Explosion" principle, but if you play competently (i.e. don't use it carelessly- wait until you've scouted your opponent OR use it as an out vs. things that have set up, NEVER blow up unless there is good reason) it shouldn't be a problem. Optionally Hypnosis > Explosion is unreliable, but it creates a gap in their team that you can exploit.
Uxie is another possibility, basically a bulkier Azelfs who is vulnerable to Taunt from enemy Azelfs 100% of the time rather than 50, but again gains the potential to set up screens twice. In the last slot you gain the option to use U-Turn (which Azelf doesn't really do effectively due to frailty) or, if ballsy, Memento. If your team is not too SR weak, Uxie is a very effective alternative to Azelf.

Interesting that you added the Gyarados thing in while I was typing this answer ZMT, because that is the other route I was going to suggest. Lead Gyarados taunts slower leads and threatens setup vs. fast/frail ones. I've also been running Dragonite lead with good success, as it performs the typical anti-lead duties well enough, but can also DD up immediately vs. some leads and force them on the defensive right away. Setup leads, particularly unexpected ones, are a total nightmare for opposing HO teams (which often just fold) and start pushing the tempo immediately. Finally, the lead is the only Pokemon slot that is 100% guaranteed never to have any damage on it when it first enters the battle, which can be big for SR-weak setup Pokes.
Leading with an offensive Poke doesn't preclude you from having a "lead" in a non-lead spot either, although note that it does push you towards using something bulkier like Bronzong or Uxie rather than Azelf.
 
GoldDraconian said:
I know I'm in the minority, but I don't like the lead Azelf either. It just doesn't seem useful enough to warrant a slot. It gets SR down and gets to screen or Taunt, but rarely both, and it's dead. I mean, it has neither durability nor offensive potential, so while the "dream scenario" (screen as they attack, Taunt as they SR, drop your own rocks, get the other screen and die) is pretty good, it also never happens, so what you get instead is a weak support Poke on a team that hungers for Pokemon slots as it is.
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I agree with that, think about it, with the lead Azelf in the OP, you are supposed to get four moves in without your opponent gaining momentum in the meantime, since otherwise you lose...and that just isn't going to happen. It might be better to have a lead that can counter other leads, so that you get instant momentum, such as LeadNite.

I've tried both Azelf and Uxie, and Uxie seems like the better choice if you must go that route.

Right now I'm about to test a lead that can both use SR and counter leads, I have high hopes.
 
I have a very good success rate on the screen then taunt. It seems to work on pretty much every swampert, metagross, infernape, and heatran lead. It's obviously not going to work on something like hippowdon, but you don't need it against a lead like that.
 
An anti lead Dragonite imo is far better then Azelf. Standard with Fire Blast, Draco Meteor, Earthquake and Extremespeed allows you to scout, beat some leads that may be incredibly annoying, such as Jirachi and Infernape, and bait Dragon, Ice, and Rock type moves, who Meta takes all 3 quite well.

Lack of Stealth Rock is big but, if your supposed to weaken their Pokemon, it shouldnt make THAT much a difference since everything gets 2hko'd at worst by basically anything on most HO teams. Most players will predict and switch in a resistance, and after leftovers, the 1/8 damage is really 1/16, which dont make that much a difference. Also, anti lead Dragonite is almost guarenteed so do SOMETHING, Azelf is not.

My Agiligross has Thunder Punch over explosion, for Skarmory, Gyarados, and friends. Was gonna try Zen Headbutt for the obvious Rotom switch in, but I really really hate Skarmory. Anyone think Zen > Explosion is a good idea?

Gyarados works well as a Lead like said before, Meta is best to save for the end anyways, on most teams. I only send him out early if they have Skarmory, since T-punch/chance to paralyze him is too good.

Also, Im wondering, why do people recommend Extremespeed over BP on Lucario? Anytime my Lucario knocks out a Poke, in comes the Gengar. Dark, Fighting, Steel, is fine coverage as it is. Both Steel and Normal are bad against Steel, which gets raped by fighting. I dont get it really. I guess its just preference, 20 power difference or Coverage.
 
My Agiligross doesn't use Explosion, instead having Meteor Mash / Bullet Punch / Thunderpunch. I just pray that Hippowdon has bit the bucket by the time I bring it out.

Extremespeed is the most optimal move on Lucario. The problem is that Bullet Punch in the current metagame is just for Gengar, because people have stopped using Aerodactyl as a revenge killer. Extremespeed's higher power and better typing is useful for so many more threats.

Also, since Lucario minimizes residual damage, it finds it easy to switch out if necessary. Additionally, the commodity of Scizor has really diminished Gengar's use.
 
The biggest problem with forgoing Taunt on the lead (as in using Uxie instead of Azelf) is that slower status users will cripple most HO teams. Mainly Sleep with Para and Burn to a lesser extent. Unless you're using something immediately threatening and carry a priorty move like Dragonite, Lum isn't going to be enough of a solution since Roserade/Smeargle will just Sleep you again.
 
ZMT are you doing this on wifi or on Shoddy? On Shoddy, you typically want Extremespeed + Crunch (and obviously the required CC/SD) because Extremespeed is more powerful as a generic priority, and Crunch is needed for Rotom-A. For wifi, I would probably try Bullet Punch > Crunch, since Gengar is going to be the most common ghost there. Otherwise, I think Gengar is rare enough that it's reasonable to just admit defeat when he shows up and switch.

On Metagross, I think Agility/MM/EQ/elemental punch is typical, although Zen Headbutt for Rotoms isn't a bad try actually (always a 2HKO even on 252/156 Bold after SR with Life Orb- contingent on hitting twice in a row). Depending on what coverage your other guys have and what is the biggest problem for your team, I think you can pretty much mix it up after Agility + Mash, although I think Explosion is rarely going to be good since it limits your sweeping abilities (through moveslot syndrome) and generates the random switches that you usually want to avoid.

Yoda, you do make a good point on the status issue, although the only thing you're likely to see out of the lead is sleep, and you can just sack the lead to it. If they have some random status, you can still use typical answers like Lum + Sub/Taunt. Still, that's an argument in favor of leads like Dragonite/Metagross (threat + priority) or Gyarados/Gliscor (threat + fast-ish Taunt) preferentially over Uxie or Bronzong, if you're avoiding Azelf but lack good status handling elsewhere.
 
Playing this on Shoddy, I dont wifi competitively much really, so I guess Extremespeed works for now.

If Gengar comes in, biggest issue is that my team dont have much to go to in terms of switching. Im playing Dragonite, Lucario, Gyarados, Tyranitar, Salamence, Metagross.

I suppose I can go to T-tar and dance up, just gotta hope he misses or doesnt have focus blast, or is choiced and locked on another move. If hes Life Orbed, Im pretty much done and have to sacrifice another poke just to take him out.

Also, Tyranitar and Gyarados both get Taunt, Gyarados being the faster one, and Tyranitar being the least predictable one to use it. I was thinking of getting rid of Earthquake on Tyranitar for taunt. Since Stone Edge and Crunch hit every Poke in OU for neutral besides Magnezone, Lucario, and Empoleon. Lucario will not come in until it sees taunt, revealing my lack of EQ.

Alternatively we can use Taunt on Gyara, but then we lose coverage that we need vs Celebi and other Gyarados (if we remove Stone edge). Early on, I just mash Pokes with Gyara, trying to weaken them, not intending to win with Gyara that early. With Taunt, you can keep Celebi from ruining Gyara with t-wave or leech seed, which is nice.

Zen Headbutt is nice on Meta, the accuracy is outweighed by the chance to flinch imo, Skarmory rapes meta with this, but if your using Taunt Gyara, it shouldnt matter much. Just switch in as he spikes or w/e, Intimidate, Taunt, DD up as he uses Brave Bird. Waterfall will leave him at like 25% hp, he can stall your life orb damage with roost, but this is where you can get more dd's or possibly flinch him. I know I shouldnt make a big deal about Skarm, but he seems to be one of Physical HO's biggest threats. I have Fire blast on Mence just for Skarm.
 
Taunt on Tyranitar might be interesting as well. Standard DDTar has Fire Punch in that slot, although it's only really useful for Scizor. Zone is a nonissue and Empoleon has limited prospects when Taunted, so the question is really whether or not the rest of the team can handle Lucario (which more or less translates as, do you have Gliscor and/or Gyarados, although other things can work in a pinch). I have never had trouble running Taunt Gyarados, but I use Bounce for the second attack, which people don't seem to like.

That team does seem to have some difficulties with LO Gengar, although its reliance on Focus Blast to beat Ttar/Luke means at least you have a shot at not losing anyone to it. That Gengar tears up a lot of teams though, and there's not much the physical team can run that outspeeds it. Aerodactyl, Azelf, Weavile, Ninjask and Floatzel are the only things I can find that outspeed it and have reasonably Attack stats, so sacrifices and priority look to be the best responses.
 
HO leads need to do 4 things: set up hazards, provide free turns, and keep things from setting up on them, all while making sure that they don't create double switches.

There are only a few types of leads I would consider: Dual Screens + SR, Encore + SR, Trick + SR

All of these leads give free turns offensively with SR and give free turns defensively with their support moves, while making it difficult for them to be set up on.

DS + SR is done best by Azelf, plain and simple. access to taunt is awesome, especially with its speed. it allows it to be impervious to status from slower users. Most leads you find will be weak to status, unless they use lum berry or have fake out. lum berry means no sash/light clay. Azelf's fast taunt is really the draw. It keeps it from being setup bait, which uxie and zong wish they could do. Who cares if Zong/Uxie can come in twice when they are slept or set up on and don't really have any improved lead matchups? The reason why people use Azelf is that Dual-Screening is the longest lasting setup, giving you more extra turns that anything else, and Azelf is the best at it.

Encore + SR is pretty exclusive. As far as I know, only Infernape, Clefable, and Shuckle get it. Infernape is the obvious inclusion for an offensive team. He draws in bulky waters, can kill opposing leads, and also is not a common user of encore, with fake out being more common. This gives him the element of surprise. drawing in earthquake, psychic and waterfall is great, since tar/gross or mence/gyara eat those up.

Clefable could be decent on some HO team, because it gets dual screens, sr, trick and encore, and drawing in fighting moves gives LO gar a turn of fun. It also is impervious to status and weather breaking the sash. If you need to swtich, it will also still have the sash after coming in on SR.

Shuckle is probably to be avoided, as he will probably be uturned to death or something, though he does draw pretty much the same stuff as ape.

Trick/Switcheroo + SR is not uncommon at all. Azelf, Uxie, Celebi, Mespirit, Jirachi, Clefable (again :D), and probably some other stuff that I can't be bothered to find. I have never used on of these. Maybe someone else can tell you about them. There are three problems here that I can see. First of all, you just gave them a revenge killer. Second of all, you are setup baiting after tricking. Third of all, if you are against another trick scarf lead, you will be setup bait for something later. The good news is that you will cripple something, meaning free sr, or get your self killed, allowing for a free switchin encore-style.

Offensive leads are sort of not as good. They provide no extra free turns of setup that may be needed to plow through counters. The biggest problem is that adding attacking moves means that you are either missing out on SR or extra coverage. If you are missing extra coverage, you will probably be set up on. Missing SR has obvious disadvantages (I have missed a lot of LO gross kos because of not having them up). If they have SR + perfect coverage then more power to them. I haven't found many (read: any) that can also beat common leads in addition to these things.

All in all, Azelf accomplishes the 4 things that leads are supposed to do the best.
 
Encore + SR, Focus Sash Ape sounds pretty effective. It loses to like...Aero, and Hippo iirc, I gotta check the Pokedex.

Anyways, what do you do if your using Azelf, and they lead with an Azelf of their own. You are left at a 50/50 chance at whoever Taunts first, which is really dumb. Azelf, Aero, and Jirachi can or will beat Azelf, which combined make up about 20% of leads used. This means 1 in 5 games your start at a disadvantage or (vs azelf) just a plain coin flip. If he taunts your Azelf, he gets up Stealth rock as your forced to switch. He sees a extra member of your team, which shouldnt happen, and he still has a sash up, so he can explode or fire blast/psychic.

I guess its just part of the game, Im just thinking there are better options, guess not =/
 
Infernape with SR/Encore/CC/Mach Punch sounds like it could do good. CC/Mach Punch KOs Aerodactyl, and though your coverage is god awful, you could Encore whatever they're doing or sac yourself which helps you either way. Granted, something like Azelf + DD Gyara would be bad, but.. I might try it.. oh well
 
Personally, I use azelf and azelf is standard and despite it's faults it is really good. the truth is that your imagination is your limit. A HO lead only does 2 things: sets up SR and transitions into a sweeper. There are tons of options. Infernape and azelf are common, but don't get stuck on them. trick metagross/ trick uxie are really great leads for ho, uxie has utirn and gross has explosion(I know that traditionalists don't like explosion on ho and for good reason). These uncommon leads are definitly usable assets. just as encore machamp and roserade are possible choices as well. be creative.
 
brksocsc appreciates Uxie lead ever since I gave him that tech and he rode it to an LNT win. ;p Honestly though, I appreciate having a quality HO player suggest that unorthodox leads are viable.

I might have been doing it wrong, but I didn't find Encore Infernape lead to be anywhere as good as I expected. Maybe I got unlucky with my matchups, but I ran into so many Taunt Azelfs (which shut down Encore obviously), slower priority users (which evade Encore), and other leads that mitigate the usefulness of Encore. If you can make Encore work, the rewards should be substantial, so I don't want to discourage anyone from trying- but in my experience, it rarely worked out as desired.

I would also like to add, I neglected to mention before, DS Azelf lead basically waves a big flag saying "I AM RUNNING HO", which permits your opponent to sketch out a gameplan right away. You've only got their lead to work with, but they have a pretty good idea what your team is going to look like and how it will behave. Giving up the edge on information isn't enough to invalidate Azelf lead, of course, but it does have that subtle drawback.
 
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