Discrimination against Men

Ok i want to state a few things first. 1- i am 14 years old so i might not be familiarized with EVERY topic being treated. 2- Don´t treat me like an idiot becouse of my age, actually i myself entered a contest of essays (open to everyone no matter the age) and i won writing about this same topic. 3- even though not all of the things being treated happen to me i have been discriminated several times in my life for being a man counting up from being called a pussy for crying once in a movie, paying for the ice cream of a friend and by teachers becouse they apparently have the predilection to think that if you are a man you are stupid.


And about girls getting pregnant: Honestly, if you're willing to have sex with them, no matter what precautions you take, you ought to be, to a certain extent, prepared for the consequences.

Yes condoms are reasonable precautions, but no sex at all is also precaution, a more ensured one. Now, I also get that this argument can lead to a no sex until marriage/ready for kids argument, which I also disagree with. You shouldn't be having sex willy nilly, but I'm also against complete abstinence. There are some people who exercise caution and MODERATION with sex, and if they get someone pregnant, it can be unfortunate. In that respect life isn't always going to be fair. But life isn't always fair. And throwing it all on the woman wouldn't necessarily be fair either.

Oh so now the argument for a father ruining their lives/losing a child (both cases) is life isn´t fair but this isn´t something that can´t be prevented. If a woman gets pregnant and keeps the child the father has no say AND has to pay support and in some cases go to jail becouse he has no money but in the opposite case (the father wants to keep him) the woman can abort the kid and the father has to keep his mouth shut while his child dies. This is just not fair, i think that an agreement must be made (if one parent wants to keep him the child is born and raised by that parent or if the father doesn´t want to have the child he shouldn´t be forced to pay). Of course if you have sex you have to face the consequencesbut the same goes for women and it is not fair that the only ones whose ass is saved by law is them.

As far as custody ggoes, it is completely unfair. In shared cusody the woman keeps the child most of the time (father weekends) all of my friends whose parents are divorced live with their mothers and they only see their parents every other weekend but the parents are the same or even more qualificated to be a parent thatn the mothers and most of this mothers live from alimoney and child support.

Parenting law (please correct me if it is the wrong name since english is not my native language) is completely unfair and discriminating to men. Hopefully in a future i won´t be so indignated when speaking about this topic due to changes in the law
 
I should have made it clearer but despite my issues with feminism I do agree that men are a huge part of the problem. Many of these issues are cultural and both men and women contribute to stereotypes. I still think it would be better for everyone if certain values in our culture were changed.
 
CUSU (Cambridge University Students Union), along with most of the college JCR committees (Cambridge has a federal structure, with 31 independent colleges making up the University), have something that is de facto the same, in that there are positions of Women's Officer, which only women (defined by 'self-identification') can vote for. I don't know if there is any de jure prohibition on a Women's Officer being a man, but it's very unlikely to happen anyway. There is no equivalent Men's Officer position; maybe there should be.

We have a separate position for "Women's Officer", but it's not directly elected as I recall.. They're appointed by the party controlling the union, I think.

@Thread: Take note, the child support thing isn't necessarily just forcing a man to pay child support either, sometimes it is the other way around; the woman wants to give the baby up, but the man wants her to keep it. The same 'discrimination' would apply, favouring the woman's choice. As I said, I agree with this, but only in the sense that it is counterbalanced when it is the female keeping it.

Essentially, I don't think punishing people for the 0.001% chance a condom breaks is a worthwhile pursuit; I think the men should only be responsible financially if he was reckless in the prevention of pregnancy.

But I also believe single parents should receive some means-tested aid over the early years of the childraising.


Most of the current predjudices are systemic, rather than social. The low number of female judges on High Courts, for instance, is reflective of the fact that the current selection committee can be old enough that they don't have the culture of equality ground into them, they are still a subconscious product of older days. It's not because all the male judges hate women.

Many legal issues (especially concerning marriage breakup, employment, rape, etc.) are complicated only because they are constructed in a context where women were not relevant participants in legal processes, and so this highlights the need for legal reform to match the social reforms of the past decades. Unfortunately, law is quite slow to change.
 
Whether or not you are right, playing the blame game will not lead to progress.

CaptKirby once paid a hooker with food. He's just jaded because it turns out she worked in pies per hour, and he only gave her half of one.

There are few things I find more asinine than the assumption that men do every single solitary thing because they expect to be repaid in sex. That is a ludicrous anti-male stereotype propagated by feminist "thought."

To most men a woman is more likely to be considered a good mate based on their performance in a kitchen rather than their performance in a bed, but feminists have never figured that out because they are so busy cursing their empty beds as they bitch about how horrible men are. The feminist movement is, if anything, as hypersexualized as society, maybe even moreso. When I was in college you couldn't turn around without seeing a "Women's Center" poster that in some way, shape, or form involved sexual activity, interracial dating, or something or other in the context of sexual relations and the courting process.

But it seems like the message is everything traditional is "degrading to women." Politeness is degrading, impoliteness is degrading. Cooking good family meals is degrading. Working in a largely-male environment is degrading. Working in a largely-female environment with a male boss is degrading. Women are told they are being degraded so often it is a marvel any well-balanced, thoughtful ones remain.

I'll say one thing for men: If men have a problem with you, they will inform you promptly and tell you to shut the fuck up or, worst case scenario, slug you and let it go. Women seem to have this toxic cattiness towards each other that refuses to let anyone else live in peace so long as they personally are in a bad mood.

It's stupid. Men and women are not the same, they are hardly even "equal" in any respect, save their species. Countless studies are available on gender differences on topics varying from how men and women process information and which features naturally attract or repulse them. We as a society seemed to have tried to micro-manage everything so that men and women have to in some way do 50% shared work on every single thing, inside and outside the home and/or office. That arrangement really doesn't work for most people, and it's foolish to pretend it does.

There are some subjects that don't merit national focus and attention, and the Gender Wars is one of them. If you can't resolve differences in your relationship, what makes you think Cosmopolitan can teach you 6 ways to improve your sex life? Too many prying eyes, in my humble opinion.

The only "problem" is that too many people think they're fucking Martha Stewart or Dr. Phil and that only their sagely advice can make your home a better place. Their "solutions" almost always appeal directly to feminine biases at best and banal whining at worst. Never could I imagine them telling a woman on a rampage against her husband to just stuff it, take a chill pill, and try improving themselves before they bring their train wreck personality down on everyone else.
 
Chrisisme raised just about every point I had to raise and then some.

Chris is me. Not Chrisisme or Chris Is Me or Chris is Me (yes people do this)

And about girls getting pregnant: Honestly, if you're willing to have sex with them, no matter what precautions you take, you ought to be, to a certain extent, prepared for the consequences.

To less of an extent than you imply, yes. You could have a baby. It should be pretty clear whether or not a girl wants a baby though. Such as by asking them if they're on the pill, an innocuous question even for your random bar fling.

Yes condoms are reasonable precautions, but no sex at all is also precaution, a more ensured one. Now, I also get that this argument can lead to a no sex until marriage/ready for kids argument, which I also disagree with.

I dunno about you but that kind of sounds contradictory?

You shouldn't be having sex willy nilly,

What? Why not? :(

cookie said:
accidents happen. condoms break. the point is that potentially the man gets coerced into supporting a baby that not only had no say in keeping but also in spite of taking reasonable measures to avoid this in the first place.

You can also choose not to have sex with anyone not on The Pill. That's a very reasonable measure. It's your choice if you didn't, and didn't ask them beforehand if they'd take the morning after pill.
 
Whether or not you are right, playing the blame game will not lead to progress.

I do not play the blame game. I tell women bluntly to stop supporting repressive, ignorant sexism and degradation to themselves when they want me to do something like hold the door open for them.

Although if one rejects that with a "so what" and is hot and I have a chance to fuck her, totally willing to compromise my beliefs instead of trying to make her change hers ^______^

Very seriously though, I treat women as equals and do not try to reduce them to some stupid gender role that men concocted in the past to control women. I try to push them to think and not accept being blindly reduced to some cute petite thing. Women deserve better than to think they need to be that and it is ridiculous that we are still even having to have conversations like these. We realized that men had concocted incredibly repressive, abhorrent systems somewhere around the time that even the Chinese figured out binding women's feet was wrong.
 
Like many men I once believed that women were fundamentally disadvantaged in American society. I of course thought these injustices should be corrected as quickly as possible. I have recently come to think that men too face serious problems in western society. Most of these opinions were formed from my own personal experiences however I have since read a lot of articles/books on the subject. Anyway these are some things I think are unfair. (note I linked to some articles throughout the post)
oh, fantastic!
Men are drafted, women are not
I am in favour of women fighting on the front line. I am not in favour of fighting at all, generally.
Men are expected to pay on dates
Not by feminists they're not. I pay more than my way with my boyfriend. I paid last week, he paid the week before, I paid the week before that.
Men are expected to “protect” women often to their detriment (i.e. save the women and children first on a sinking ship)
Pointless chivalry. Not something I am in favour of. And if you're thinking of the Titanic, which you no doubt are - rich women and children first. Fuck the poor.
Men are presented terribly in our popular culture (“Boys are stupid throw rocks at them” – Men appear stupid and loutish on television sitcoms) (http://open.salon.com/blog/jodi_kasten/2009/05/27/equal_rights_for_men)
And how, exactly, are women presented? Show me an example of a man being objectified and I'll show you fifty of a woman. Women are there to look pretty and do very little else.
Who exactly do you think writes these sitcoms?
Men are heavily discouraged from adopted feminine manners and dress wear as women are not discouraged from the converse. Men more or less cannot wear skirts/dresses/make-up and expect to live a normal life. Men are considered “pussies” if they are emotional. I think this is rather unfair and that men’s lack of clothing choices reflects a lack of expression in other areas.
(http://www.nationalcenterformen.org/page20.shtml)
And I agree totally. But have you not considered that is a form of trans discrimination as well as women traditionally perceived to be 'weaker' and 'overemotional'? Men are supposed to be strong, emotionally-repressed types. I think this is a way the patriarchy hurts men too, definitely - but I don't think it's women oppressing men here.
Men really have few reproductive rights. This one hits home for me. Me and my girlfriend are having sex. I do not want children. However if she got pregnant I would have no recourse to pay child support if she went to term with the child. She has more choices. She alone decides whether to put the child up for adoption or to abort and I have no say. Since we are not married I would have rather unequal rights to see my son/daughter.
Yeah, fantastic. Thing is, how many men get lady pregnant then fuck off and have nothing to do with the kid? How many men don't pay child support even when they agreed to have a child?
Lots. Reproductive shit just isn't fair on either side.
Nor do I think it fair the woman is supposed to look after the child. Absent fathers are common, absent mothers relatively rare. Childcare should be split equally between mother and father.
I disagree about many women’s inequalities in the workplace. I have never personally heard anyone, in my entire life, openly discuss discrimination against women. In no organization I have been a part of have women had any trouble being elected to office. I agree the “wage gap” statistic is compilled unfairly. It merely compares the AVG wage of full time working men to full time working women. It makes no allowances for education or extra hours at the job nor seniority. I think, for better or worse, women make different lifestyle choices then men and this affects their salary. Article going in more depth:
http://www.swifteconomics.com/2009/09/21/lies-damned-lies-and-statistics-the-wage-gap/ )
I'll leave the wage gap out for now - what about the under-representation of women in Parliament (I'm assuming you're from the UK)? The amount of women who chair those companies listed on the stock market?
Another angle - how are women in politics viewed - why so much emphasis on their appearance and dress?

Divorce courts are extremely unfair to men. I do not see why if both parents are competent and willing that custody is not presumed to be a straight 50/50 split between each parent. However the current going rate is the father gets every other holiday and every other weekend. I think this is horrible and the risk of losing my kids like that is too great for me to currently entertain the idea of having children. Also child support and alimony can get out of hand. Men have been put in jail for being unable to pay. Support is based on “inputted income” which is what the court thinks you could make. Many cases show women getting very large divorce settlements after short, child-less marriages.
(http://www.ukmm.org.uk/issues/dar-by-sb.htm)
And huge studies show that most women end up much poorer after divorce. Again, the women shouldn't be expected to look after the children - but what exactly do you think they get otherwise? The single father is a thing of rarity, admired for his child-raising skills. The single mother is dole-sucking scum, unless she was affluent to begin with and has lost her partner through no fault of her own.

(http://www.glennsacks.com/fathers_bear_the.htm)

((http://www.ukmm.org.uk/issues/lawtest.htm)

We’ve all heard that women should be believed if they claim to have been raped or sexually harassed. I think this goes against the central notion of our legal system. Everyone, no matter what they are accused of, should be presumed innocent. In addition women almost certainly do make false accusation since it can easily work in there favor during a dispute or divorce preceding. The penalties for falsely accusing someone are low so it would seem like it would be abused. This video explains why many rape accusations must be unfounded. ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RliMu2JxVr0&feature=player_embedded )
Yes, women should be believed. I'm not watching the video, because quite frankly I think it will make me sick. I'm not saying belief should equal a conviction - but belief of a rape victim is very, very important. The police didn't take my complaint seriously enough and I'm still recovering from that more than the assault three years later. No doubt women do, occasionally, make false accusations. The false accusations - which stand from 2 to 9%, with 3% being the general opinion - are mostly alleged stranger-rapes, not date-rapes. Adding on to this Rape Crisis (you know, the people who know what they're talking about) estimate that 4 out of 5 rapes are never reported. And the conviction rate for rape in the UK? Postcode lottery. Some areas have 10% (which is shit), some recently had 0.7% (which is fucking appalling). The victim is treated like the perpetrator. Women have been put in prison for making 'false claims' which then turned out to be substantiated. In the UK two serial rapists have just been caught - the taxi driver who raped 19 women (that we know of - the actual number is bound to be far higher) and Kirk Reid, who was found guilty of 24 sex assaults - police believe he was guilty of around 70. Over 12 years. Despite them identifying him as a suspect in a string of rapes 4 years ago; they didn't arrest him. The taxi driver? Most of the victims that came forward weren't believed so the reports were no-crimed and dropped. We live in a country where cautions are given out for rape. Where rape myths (exactly like the ones you spout) are prevalent and stop women being believed at all, let alone getting justice.
Three cases I can think of off the top of my head recently;
The case of the US Navy soldier who admitted to using physical force against a prostitute to continue raping her after she had asked him to leave, and was acquitted;
The Australian 'yes, I raped her when she was sleeping, but it wasn't really rape' where the judge has claimed he shouldn't get a custodial sentence because it was only a 'technical' rape;
The case in Wales lately where a 50 year old man admitted to targeting a drunken 19 year old outside a club, walking her into an alley and 'taking advantage of her' - she ran away screaming 'I've been raped' with her clothes torn and he kept her phone and her underwear and was found not guilty..
We also live in a world where articles are published to student newspapers in America describing a how-to guide to rape ('failed satire') said the author and another describing women who put out as sluts and how he likes to watch his 'victim' do the 'walk of shame' the day after ('satire, and I did a Women's Studies class last semester so really I know lots about these things', says the author').
I could go on. But I won't.
Oh, actually - the amount of times I have been sexually assaulted? Fucking countless. Sexual assault is a normal part of a woman's life, ever thought about that? From those delightful men that follow us down streets shouting such charming things as 'DO YOU WANT TO GET RAPED' to 'GIVE US A BLOWJOB LOVE' and scare the shit out of you - because you don't know when it will turn nasty, and when it does it is your fault, says the world to every guy that's ever slipped his hand up your skirt or slapped your arse in a club.

Finally I don’t like a lot of feminist scholarship. I have bought and read many well regarded texts (Women: A Feminist Perspective, Paradoxes of gender, etc) and found they appeal very strongly to emotion not reason. Obviously women have experiences they need to let out but I don’t think laws should be based on feelings. This is a great article by Christina Hoff summers on her experiences with Feminist scholarship. (http://chronicle.com/article/Persistent-Myths-in-Feminis/46965/)
You don't like a lot of feminist scholarship? Neither do I!
Feminism is not one homogenous grouping. My feminism is very different from a Tory woman's feminism. Our feminism is very different from a trans perspective, which is different from a disability perspective, which is different from a Marxist perspective, which is different from an anarchafeminist perspective.. Do you get it yet?

In conclusion women have the right to be treated the same as men but men also have the right o be treated the same as women. In mathematics the only too things that are equal are things that are exactly the same. Obviously men and women aren’t the same (though I think in all important ways they are) but legally no distinctions should be made. Feminism has been a great force for good in our world and in many countries much still needs to be done but I think in some ways its gone too far.
Ahh, that old trope. FEMINISM HAS GONE TOO FAR.
I'll say it's gone far enough when the problems I face are solved.
Generally good page - http://www.ukmm.org.uk/
Decent page - http://www.themenscenter.com/National/national10.htm
Great site in general ( http://www.nationalcenterformen.org/index.shtml )
 
CaptKirby once paid a hooker with food. He's just jaded because it turns out she worked in pies per hour, and he only gave her half of one.
You are a silly :3
There are few things I find more asinine than the assumption that men do every single solitary thing because they expect to be repaid in sex. That is a ludicrous anti-male stereotype propagated by feminist "thought."
No. I disagree totally - men do not do every single solitary thing because they expect to be paid in sex, but some men definitely do expect to be paid in sex for some things (buying meals, drinks, etc).
To most men a woman is more likely to be considered a good mate based on their performance in a kitchen rather than their performance in a bed, but feminists have never figured that out because they are so busy cursing their empty beds as they bitch about how horrible men are. The feminist movement is, if anything, as hypersexualized as society, maybe even moreso. When I was in college you couldn't turn around without seeing a "Women's Center" poster that in some way, shape, or form involved sexual activity, interracial dating, or something or other in the context of sexual relations and the courting process.
You are a silly, DK! 1. Please don't bore us all with the feminists are craaaazy man haters cos they can't get laid nonsense 2. I would like my partner (be it man or lady) to be good in the bedroom as well as the kitchen, but I can make do with one, the other, or neither; 3. I am very sorry for your experiences with the Women's Centre and I can't talk for it - but I am sure they did a lot more than silly dating exercises.
Point 2 a little more seriously; feminism is about the status of women, right? As a feminist, and a lady (though I don't like the term lady because blah blah blah but I'll ignore that for now) I would like a partner that doesn't expect me to do the cooking because I am a woman, or have sex on his terms because his pleasure is more important than mine (and believe me I have slept with about five hundred million people that are of that mindset, and dated a few as well). Ah, the innocence of youth.

But it seems like the message is everything traditional is "degrading to women." Politeness is degrading, impoliteness is degrading. Cooking good family meals is degrading. Working in a largely-male environment is degrading. Working in a largely-female environment with a male boss is degrading. Women are told they are being degraded so often it is a marvel any well-balanced, thoughtful ones remain.
Not at all. I like to think I am fairly well balanced and thoughtful!
I think politeness is.. not degrading, but can be harmful to women because they are so often taught to be polite and mindful of others feelings in a way men often aren't. This starts from the playground (and is directly relevant to your paragraph below, so I'll deal with it there).
Cooking good family meals is fun! I, for example, enjoy it immensely and made the most FUCKING AWESOME lasagne ever the other night. It took me like, two hours to make - I did the sauces myself and everything - and it turned out pretty fucking A! I made this for my boyfriend, because I love him and he had had a hard couple of days at work, so instructed him to get his feet up and watch his terrible American football (that bit is almost a lie, I made him put my soaps on first) and I cooked him dinner. I often do this!
Everyone should be able to cook. That's simple enough.
However - if my boyfriend expected me to put dinner on because cooking is what women do so he doesn't need to concern himself with it really? That would be problematic. He would be dumped.
Feminists are quite reasonable people really :(

I'll say one thing for men: If men have a problem with you, they will inform you promptly and tell you to shut the fuck up or, worst case scenario, slug you and let it go. Women seem to have this toxic cattiness towards each other that refuses to let anyone else live in peace so long as they personally are in a bad mood.
Again, not an evil of feminism really, who are generally actually quite pleasant people not prone to the bitchiness and cattiness prevalent in society. But it's socialisation - you said it yourself!
I used to watch it on the playground and feel sad. Girls are in bitchy little cliques - guys just get on with it. It comes back to the politeness thing - as a woman you're supposed to be nice, and the caring gender, and mindful of others feelings, and not into confrontation (that is aggressive and apparently male). So there is no confrontation, really - there's just bitchiness, and shit, and all that goes with. And we grow up like it.
It's stupid. Men and women are not the same, they are hardly even "equal" in any respect, save their species. Countless studies are available on gender differences on topics varying from how men and women process information and which features naturally attract or repulse them. We as a society seemed to have tried to micro-manage everything so that men and women have to in some way do 50% shared work on every single thing, inside and outside the home and/or office. That arrangement really doesn't work for most people, and it's foolish to pretend it does.
If most men did 50% of the work in the home I would be very impressed.
(This is where I put my feminist smugface on again; my boyfriend does the majority of housework. aha. he is subjugated by my EVIL FEMINIST WAYS)

There are some subjects that don't merit national focus and attention, and the Gender Wars is one of them. If you can't resolve differences in your relationship, what makes you think Cosmopolitan can teach you 6 ways to improve your sex life? Too many prying eyes, in my humble opinion.
Cosmopolitan is one of the least feminist things ever.
1. They take date-rape very unseriously and consider it the ladies' fault.
2. It is all about how to be sexual (but not TOO sexual!) and please your man. Masturbation (unless you are doing it in front of your man) is frowned upon. Lesbianism is ignored. PLEASE YOUR MAN, LADIES, 50 WAYS TO GIVE A BETTER BLOWJOB. What if you don't like giving blowjobs? Well. You should. You're supposed to be pleasing your man, remember - men like blowjobs yes? But what if your guy doesn't? No mention of that, either.
What I am trying to say there in a very waffly way is simply that magazines like Cosmo are basically about man-fucks-woman-in-societally-normal-way. "Men like blowjobs" = "all men like blowjobs". It's unhealthy.
3. Pointless fucking airbrushed beauty SHITE. GET THIN GET RICH GET PRETTY GET A MAN
oh, fuck off, cosmo.
The only "problem" is that too many people think they're fucking Martha Stewart or Dr. Phil and that only their sagely advice can make your home a better place. Their "solutions" almost always appeal directly to feminine biases at best and banal whining at worst. Never could I imagine them telling a woman on a rampage against her husband to just stuff it, take a chill pill, and try improving themselves before they bring their train wreck personality down on everyone else.
my boyfriend tells me regularly!
you know, whatever works for you is fine. if you want to stay at home and do the dishes, do them! if you wish to have twelve children and devote your life to raising them with love, care and affection, do that! if you want to run a bank, do that also! you see? it should be about personal choices, not gender choices.
 
reply to deck knight II also TRIPLE POST

Perhaps you've heard this phrase before:

"Chivalry is dead, and women killed it."
This pleases me!

My workplace is the complete reverse of the engineering standard. It's a small office and relatively young business, but I believe I am the only male employee who has ever worked there as an actual medical biller. I hear enough comments about "men" regularly to irritate me, but its supposedly tongue-in-cheek.
Ooh, anecdotal evidence. Well. I work in a gambling office (i.e. bookies) and hear disgusting things about women all day long! Because I am the only woman! And all the customers are men!

I believe it comes mostly from a society polarized by an extreme feminism that pits men against women with the following axiom: Men and women are equal, but women are better people.

I disagree. I think that whilst my feminism may be combatative at times, it's a reasonable fight. I don't want to be expected to raise the kids or clean the house or give up my job or get married or whatever.

Sure, maybe the feminist will buy you dinner, but at the cost of giving you a lecture and talking down to you like you're a neanderthal. Me, I'm old fashioned. If I am taking a woman out I will pay, because it is the right and proper thing for a gentleman to do. Period. Fuck you women's lib.

I do not talk down to my dates :(
This is interesting to me really. Sometimes they do insist on buying me dinner (especially one lovely, lovely boy I know) but I will pay my way every way I can. Not through some RAH I'M A FEMINIST THIS IS WHAT FEMINISTS DO LET ME BUY MY OWN FUCKING DINNER YOU CAVEMAN but because I consider it the fair and reasonable thing to do! My boyfriend on the other hand will dodge the bill every time he can, I think. And this annoys me, because he has more money than me.
So, if you would really insist on buying me dinner, that is fine by me <3 (but I would prefer to split the bill)

I will also hold open doors for you if your arms are full, no matter how busy your tongue becomes in the process. And for the elderly. And everything else the impolite, ill-mannered reprobates somehow have not managed to learn from their parents.
Thank you kindly. Holding the door open for me is a lovely gesture and only politeness; actually pushing in front of me so you can hold the door open for me when I am perfectly capable of opening a door myself so you can stand there with your chest puffed out like you want a fucking medal will earn you a very, very dirty look indeed.

I don't believe there is institutional discrimination against men with the sole exception of family court. If you have a penis, you will lose custody, have 50% of your pay garnished, and be told not to defend yourself lest the court officer file a restraining order on you for contempt of court, intimidation, or some other trumped up charge.

I don't deny that some fathers are unfairly treated by the courts, but I think it cuts both ways. Also, women end up poorer after divorce! And to everyone who complains about those AWFUL DIVORCED WOMEN living off child support and alimony - uhh, who the fuck is supposed to pay for these kids then? Childcare is work. Fucking hard work!

Also you have all missed an important date on your Calendar folks: Equal Death Day (the day female work-related deaths catch up to male work-related deaths of the previous year) was November 25th. [Males constitute 90% of all work-related deaths].

And that is not good, for people probably should not die in the workplace. Does this mean that feminism is useless? No! It means that we should look on improving safety standards any way we can (this unfortunately means workers rights and also possibly unions deck :() and making sure that people can go into work without fear they will get squashed or set on fire or explode.
 
I just want to say that males can repay their wives' meals by washing the dishes!
 
The really scary part is... what can I trust? I can't trust academics and statisticians, apparently. Can I even trust the article I read? I mean, it was written by a women, so I doubt she has any agenda beyond the truth. Am I ever really being educated, or am I just being indoctrinated by myths? It could be that my entire worldview is based on lies and that to me is a shitty thought. That's why I never watch/read the news because you never know what's bullshit. Life sucks.

This is singlehandedly the most truthful thing I have ever seen posted on any forum I have ever been to.

akuchi said:
Women have been put in prison for making 'false claims' which then turned out to be substantiated.

Perhaps they should have made the claim when they knew it could be substantiated. Why should anyone believe an unproven statement?

In fairness though, the rest of your points are actually pretty much on the money.
 
I just want to say that males can repay their wives' meals by washing the dishes!

Thank you X-act for pointing that out, i know very few men who can cook and half of the women i know go to coocking classes and enjoy it. I cook terribly so if my couple cooked better (probably the case since the only thing i can cook is soup) i would expect her to cook but i have no problem with making the bed, cleaning the floor, washing the dishes, etc. In fact i like to do those things becouse i can´t stand living in a house that is dirty.

Yeah, fantastic. Thing is, how many men get lady pregnant then fuck off and have nothing to do with the kid? How many men don't pay child support even when they agreed to have a child?
Lots. Reproductive shit just isn't fair on either side.
Nor do I think it fair the woman is supposed to look after the child. Absent fathers are common, absent mothers relatively rare. Childcare should be split equally between mother and father.

Ok this is bullshit, men ARE discriminated by parenting law you can´t argue with that, as i posted earlier men can be forced to have childern or to abort one, a friend of mine once met his girlfriend and she told him that she had gotten pregnant but that she had aborted the child. My friend was devastated, he would have kept him and raised im on his own but he wasn´t given the chance and becouse of that a life was lost. Also if you don´t pay you go to jail and if you have no money (say you were fired) you also go to jail. And even when custody is spltted 50-50 the child ends up living with the mother and isiting the father on weeekends, that makes me sick. Also please argue with what i posted earlier because if not i will be forced to believe it is correct
 
Akuchi I'm very sorry if you were raped but its not especially fair that you bring it up. You aren't (for good reason) going to give us the whole story so there is no way we could really understand what happened. Bringing it up just makes it harder for everyone to be rational about this.

Also since you brought up the personal I feel the right have to doubt your claims. You said "Sexual assault is a part of a women's life" and "I have been assaulted countless times." You are either extremely unlucky or have a different definition of sexual assault then the rest of us. Huge numbers of women (My sister, my mother, several of my friends) claim to have NEVER been assaulted a single time. I don't understand how your worldview could be trusted if you have such a different experience of the world then many women I trust.

We also apparently have different idas on what constitutes a good statistic. I frankly don't buy the 3% statistic. For one thing I can't understand why that would be the case. Women HAVE reasons to claim they've been raped. I don't know why they wouldn't. My uncle WAS extorted money by someone living with him. Other examples exist but that's not the way to make an argument about public policy.

Jails are absolutely horrible places. Rapists go there a long time. They are often raped while there. People hate rapists. Being sent to jail for rape is AT LEAST as bad as being raped. People need to feel real bad for anybody sent to jail for something they didn't do.

The feminist stats on rape are definitely wrong. If rape is reported 5% of the time AND rape accusations are even 90% true then a random male smogoner is 200 times more likely to rape a woman then is a woman smogoner likely to accuse a man of rape. That's ridiculous. Its IMPOSSIBLE that rape is both under-reported and the accusations are true. Feminist scholarship says both so I'd doubt much of what they say.

Where exactly are you getting your statistics?

Here's an example of where I get mine: http://www.billoblog.com/?p=134
 
The feminist stats on rape are definitely wrong. If rape is reported 5% of the time AND rape accusations are even 90% true then a random male smogoner is 200 times more likely to rape a woman then is a woman smogoner likely to accuse a man of rape.

If rape is 90% true (it's MUCH higher than that), that would mean that less 1 in 20 rapes actually get reported. Where did you get 200?

That's ridiculous. Its IMPOSSIBLE that rape is both under-reported and the accusations are true. Feminist scholarship says both so I'd doubt much of what they say.
How is it "impossible"? No one, not even feminists, are saying every rape claim is true. Like, seriously, how is it impossible. I don't follow.

Do you, like, have any concept of rape and how horrible and devastating it is? At all? Do you not get why someone would not want to report it?

Jails are absolutely horrible places. Rapists go there a long time. They are often raped while there. People hate rapists. Being sent to jail for rape is AT LEAST as bad as being raped. People need to feel real bad for anybody sent to jail for something they didn't do.
How does that make rape okay? I don't get your point. Of course we should feel bad for the falsely accused. What's your point? (By the way, unless they get raped there, I'm going to say it's not "at least as bad as being raped". I'll ask again if you have any concept of what's so terribly wrong with rape in the first place. Rape isn't like being beaten or attacked or mugged or even murdered.
 
If rape is 90% true (it's MUCH higher than that), that would mean that less 1 in 20 rapes actually get reported. Where did you get 200?

How is it "impossible"? No one, not even feminists, are saying every rape claim is true. Like, seriously, how is it impossible. I don't follow.

Do you, like, have any concept of rape and how horrible and devastating it is? At all? Do you not get why someone would not want to report it?

How does that make rape okay? I don't get your point. Of course we should feel bad for the falsely accused. What's your point? (By the way, unless they get raped there, I'm going to say it's not "at least as bad as being raped". I'll ask again if you have any concept of what's so terribly wrong with rape in the first place. Rape isn't like being beaten or attacked or mugged or even murdered.

Okay say those stats (90% not false, 5% reporting):

180 women were raped
9 of those women will report it
1 women would have to have to make a false accusation

Which means there were 180 rapes per false accusation. Nobody has explained why this would be true and why my thought process is wrong that many women would consider claiming rape for personal gain.

Assuming you use 97% true you get 646 rapes/false accusations. Nobody finds this odd given the reasons I believe women might gain from a false accusation?
 
On the point of the draft:

The most recent court decisions of which I am aware, are concerning women on the front line, rather than drafted. However, I believe that the rational behind both are probably the same.

It is stated that men would be more likely to take unwise risks to go to a woman's aid and get themselves killed because of chivalry. I won't take a firm stance on if this is true or not, because I can easily see it going both ways.

I believe the counter proposal is that the physical tests be issued to women and those that pass them would be allowed to serve in the front lines. If I remember the literature correctly (I did a brief study of this in high school) the number of women who would pass this is rather small because of the genetics.


On pregnancies:

I believe that women having the majority of the control over the baby is the right thing, simply because they are the ones who are pregnant. Once we start test tubing babies and women no longer have to give a natural birth, things like this will probably be solved.

On divorce, parenting and related issues:

Given that I'm not married, and don't plan on marrying anytime soon, I have no real opinion on this issue.

On school:

I believe that the majority of the problem is not at the college level, but earlier in education. There are numerous studies that state that the way that we put young students (elementary) in desks and have them sit down for the day is much more detrimental for boys then for girls.

I'm not sure how this should be solved given that if you started separating classes by gender, there would be immediate problems with separate is not equal arguments. In all likelihood, there would be problems with some schools being biased in favor of one gender instead of the other. However, we have so many problems with education, I'm not sure where to even start trying to reform it.

In summary:

I don't believe that there is a single solution or guilty party in these matters. However, I do believe that there are problems.
 
Akuchi I'm very sorry if you were raped but its not especially fair that you bring it up. You aren't (for good reason) going to give us the whole story so there is no way we could really understand what happened. Bringing it up just makes it harder for everyone to be rational about this.

Also since you brought up the personal I feel the right have to doubt your claims. You said "Sexual assault is a part of a women's life" and "I have been assaulted countless times." You are either extremely unlucky or have a different definition of sexual assault then the rest of us. Huge numbers of women (My sister, my mother, several of my friends) claim to have NEVER been assaulted a single time. I don't understand how your worldview could be trusted if you have such a different experience of the world then many women I trust.

Re the bold: WTF... Because she has a personal experience you should doubt her claims? Not following the logic here.

However, from my read, her definition of sexual assault includes more than just physical acts, which I believe is the actual definition. After all you can verbally abuse someone just as much as you can abuse someone.

Women HAVE reasons to claim they've been raped. I don't know why they wouldn't. My uncle WAS extorted money by someone living with him. Other examples exist but that's not the way to make an argument about public policy.
Also since you brought up the personal I feel the right have to doubt your claims. Just wanted to bring this one up.

Yes, women have reasons to claim they've been raped. They also have reasons like societal disgrace, a feeling of abuse, and so much more to try to pretend that it never happened. It's the same with domestic and child abuse, sexual harassment at work, and other things of which I am not thinking.

Jails are absolutely horrible places. Rapists go there a long time. They are often raped while there. People hate rapists. Being sent to jail for rape is AT LEAST as bad as being raped. People need to feel real bad for anybody sent to jail for something they didn't do.
What's your stance on the death penalty? Do you think that being killed is AT LEAST as bad as murdering? How on earth could you think this?

I will agree that going to jail while innocent, and being raped in jail is as bad as being raped...because you got raped.

The feminist stats on rape are definitely wrong. If rape is reported 5% of the time AND rape accusations are even 90% true then a random male smogoner is 200 times more likely to rape a woman then is a woman smogoner likely to accuse a man of rape. That's ridiculous. Its IMPOSSIBLE that rape is both under-reported and the accusations are true.
Do you understand statistics? As I'm reading through your post I'm making more ad homiems simply to make myself feel better because of how derogatory you are being.

It is in fact possible that every accusation is true, and only half the people are accused. This is not the case, as not every accusation is true, and half of rapes are not reported.

Lets say that there are 20 people raped. 10 of them could report it, and they would all be true, and still not all the rapes were reported.

Could you please explain the thought process behind your assertion?
 
How does that make rape okay? I don't get your point. Of course we should feel bad for the falsely accused. What's your point? (By the way, unless they get raped there, I'm going to say it's not "at least as bad as being raped". I'll ask again if you have any concept of what's so terribly wrong with rape in the first place. Rape isn't like being beaten or attacked or mugged or even murdered.

With all due respect, ad hominem arguments have no place here, CiM. And in any case, even if for some reason its true that in 80+% of rape cases the woman is right, there is still no reason to abandon the presumption of innocence. If the woman has no substantive proof other than her word that a man raped her, there is no reason for the man to suffer years of imprisonment and have his life destroyed life solely on the basis of a potentially false accusation. The moment we stop placing the burden of proof on the prosecution, then that is the moment where our country is truly lost.

Also it disturbs me that you seem to consider rape as infinitely worse than a decade in prison and everything it entails. To use your favored terminology: "I'll ask again if you have any concept of what's so terribly wrong with spending years in prison and suffering when you leave it for a crime you didn't commit".
 
Re the bold: WTF... Because she has a personal experience you should doubt her claims? Not following the logic here.

I meant that since she made a personal statement its valid for me to criticize it if i don't agree. Sorry if I wasn't clear.


What's your stance on the death penalty? Do you think that being killed is AT LEAST as bad as murdering? How on earth could you think this?

Of course its just as bad as being murdered. That why we need to be really careful about who we send to jail.

I'm sorry if I sounded derogatory.
 
I'm sorry if I sounded derogatory.

Okay, my interpretation when I first read it was that you doubted the truth of her story, rather than the conclusions drawn from it. As I'm sure you can understand, there is a noticeable difference between the two.


Of course its just as bad as being murdered. That why we need to be really careful about who we send to jail


Props for consistency, I'm from Texas, aka the state that kills people, so the majority of the people I speak with would disagree.

I believe that the jury's decision on if the story of the possible victim should be the ones who decide. However, there are a number of problems with the justice system, that I'm not going to touch. I believe that as long as there is the perception that the justice system is soft on criminals (of which there is certainly a perception) we will have these problems.
 
You are either extremely unlucky or have a different definition of sexual assault then the rest of us.

Or Akuchi lives in a different place, in a different country, and does different things. Since Akuchi does seem to be using a fairly broad definition of sexual assault that includes verbal and minor physical actions, it doesn't sound at all implausible that she could be experiencing it fairly regularly, like pretty much every time she goes out of an evening. (And yes such actions, while a million miles away from rape or near-rape, can reasonably be described as sexual assault.)

Nobody finds this odd given the reasons I believe women might gain from a false accusation?
Given rape accusations, genuine or false, rarely lead to successful conviction or even prosecution, no I do not find it odd that false accusations seem rare. You're also forgetting that false accusation (of any crime) is both illegal and immoral, and most people do behave mostly morally.

About the death penalty, my own view is that because the justice system is not infallible, the death penalty should not be used. A wrongly-jailed person can be freed. A wrongly-executed person cannot be brought back to life.
Gandalf said:
Many that live deserve to die. Many who die who deserve life. Can you give that to them? Then be not quick to deal out death"
 
With all due respect, ad hominem arguments have no place here, CiM.

You're the first person to ever say "with all due respect" to me lol, thanks. :toast:

The main reason I say that is because reading his post it seems like he's working under the assumption that rape isn't something fundamentally awful thing that violates someone else's body, rips through their very core (not literally you assholes), and leaves them shaken, tortured, and unable to trust anyone around them. It does ridiculously permanent psychological damage to someone, and it seems he's talking of rape as if it's on the same level as someone clubbing you with a bat and grabbing your backpack.

[quoteAnd in any case, even if for some reason its true that in 80+% of rape cases the woman is right, there is still no reason to abandon the presumption of innocence. If the woman has no substantive proof other than her word that a man raped her, there is no reason for the man to suffer years of imprisonment and have his life destroyed life solely on the basis of a potentially false accusation. The moment we stop placing the burden of proof on the prosecution, then that is the moment where our country is truly lost.
[/quote]

I didn't mean to imply that at all, I just don't want to backpedal back to the days when no one believed a woman when claiming rape. Of course her word alone is not enough to jail anyone. It's enough to investigate though. It's just a dangerous slope to slide down.

Also it disturbs me that you seem to consider rape as infinitely worse than a decade in prison and everything it entails. To use your favored terminology: "I'll ask again if you have any concept of what's so terribly wrong with spending years in prison and suffering when you leave it for a crime you didn't commit".

For reasons I don't care to go into, yes.

Rape in many cases strips you of basically any sexual or intimate security you might have had. It's something fairly difficult to fathom. Rape victims sometimes end up very cold, distant people, because it's too traumatic to treat people in the world any differently for them. While being in prison for something you didn't do is by no means pleasant, I don't see how you can compare the two.
 
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