Revisions - Syclant discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.
Honestly I don't support doing anything other than going back to the pre-nerf stuff OR revising movepool only.

Why can't we do everything that makes sense movepool-wise and then move backwards, removing what is proposed to be broken? Its gonna need a lot to compete with Infernape, who has better typing for the metagame and a better movepool. I think that Syclant's higher attacking stats would in some ways make up for its worse typing, assuming it was given a movepool upgrade.

Lets give it Megahorn, A 120-base ice move (possibly low accuracy?), Close Combat/Superpower, Earthquake and Spikes, and see what happens. We will be testing whatever we give it anyway, so we might as well see what is truly broken now and what isn't. This clearly makes it better, giving it some nice physical options, and makes compoundeyes more relevant (lol). I think that scizor/metagross, walls, and scarfers will still keep it in check. If we make the 120-base ice move low accuracy it would force it to use compoundeyes on physical sets, and would make it so it couldn't do garchomp stuff and just switch out of counters to try again later. Alternatively, we could start with 90-100 acc, and then decide if it needs to be nerfed later.

I would like to reiterate that I only really support a movepool change, and not stat changes. Giving it a better movepool (especially a support one) means that it would become a potent lead, and I think that having it outspeed azelf is excessive.

Of course, the stat changes could be worked out just like the movepool can be. We can test it and if it is deemed too broken then we can fix it later.
 
Well I'm going to submit only a slight tweak as a 555 BST option: 70/116/70/116/66/117
PS: 225; 9
PT: 100; 4
SS: 223; 8
ST: 95; 3
OSR: 359; 7

-OR-

To keep the same 550 BST, I'd just move things around: 67/116/70/116/64/117
PS: 225; 9
PT: 97; 3
SS: 223; 8
ST: 90; 3
OSR: 354; 7

Original (70/116/70/114/65/115):
PS: 222; 8
PT: 100; 4
SS: 216; 8
ST: 93; 3
OSR: 351; 7

In the beefed-up spread, I invested two stat points in SpA to even out the offenses at a solid 116 apiece, mostly for aesthetic reasons, but also to give the Tail Glow sets a tiny bit of extra juice. Personally, I don't think Syclant needs a significant boost in either of its incredible attacking stats, especially when they're being boosted most of the time.

0 EVs, neutral nature, LO Superpower vs. WishBliss: 504 - 594 (77.42% - 91.24%)

It'll take out a Blissey that has taken nominal prior damage or has switched in to SR multiple times, which is good enough for me.

252 EVs, neutral nature, +2 Focus Blast (Focus Sash or good prediction) vs. CB Scizor: 290 - 342 (84.55% - 99.71%)

The two extra points in SpA actually turn this OHKO from a 67% chance into a 75% chance w/SR.

The new speed number here is the minimum needed to outrun Scarftar, +nature base 100s with a neutral nature, and +nature 115s. It's the most Syclant really wants, imo, and i don't think Syclant needs all those free EVs from having 120 Spe, not even to take out Blissey.

The 550 BST spread is there if people think the 555 spread is too excessive or are in some other way opposed to seeing the BST changed at all.

67/70 defense:
350 Atk LO Lucario Extremespeed vs. 0/0 Syclant: 148 - 175 (53.82% - 63.64%).

70/70:
" ": 148 - 175 (52.67% - 62.28%), not a huge difference. Even if it were, Syclant's frailty is what balances it out in the metagame, so lowering it a bit to give it (in my opinion) a good offensive boost is well worth it.

So, all in all, Syclant doesn't really need too much of a change except for a tiny speed boost and some extra tweaking elsewhere to make it "look nice," in my opinion. The biggest revisions will come with what moves Syclant gets/runs, so this spread is entirely counterable by the usual suspects based on that. Without Superpower or Focus Blast, Blissey will cripple or beat it one-on-one. Without Grass Knot, Argho destroys it. Without Earth Power, Kitsunoh wins out. Without a Scarf, Stratagem, Jolteon, Dugtrio, and >base 62 Scarfers ruin it. Scizor and Metagross stop it cold, as usual, too, along with SP Colossoil. Lucario can revenge to an extent (See above calc). Basically, the Syclant with my proposed spread will have the added sweeping potential of not having to worry about speed ties with Starmie and Azelf or losing out to surprise Choice Scarf Tyranitar, which are the only stat changes I can really see it benefiting from.
 
The problem I see, is giving him a bunch of 120 base power moves when he has 115 speed and SD already. With Compoundeyes he can make it so he never misses with those moves, and then you have a speedy as hell Heracross running around.
 
I agree with adding Psychic, Focus Blast, EQ, Thunderpunch, Megahorn, and Spikes. They're all moves that I can see it using flavor-wise, and they'd give it a fuckton of unpredictability. Not sure about the Ice Megahorn, but it couldn't hurt.

Close Combat could be TESTED, but I think it'd be a tad overkill. No Super Fang.
 
Once again, you're running the Stealth Rock gauntlet with Compoundeyes. Ant has the least auspicious typing for SR in the metagame, and an SR immunity ability is as good as anything on Ant. I've had the idea (once I figure out how to download Shoddy Battle...) to make a spin-dedicated team (made possible in part by Colossoil) to let Ant and Mence sweep, but then again, not everyone will try that. Some people will (maybe even me once SB is in,) but keep in mind Colossoil will NOT necessarily make this Yanmega in OU. (Yanmacbeth was assisted by the ridiculous ease of Rapid Spin in UU to pretty much blow up anything with Tinted Lens. Three witches=Donphan, Donphan, and the fact Donphan was Yanmega's number one partner right before it was banned. Ant would need Compoundeyes when several Pokemon with multiple resists to his STABs are already in OU.)

And seeing more about half-decent Physical Ice in ANY metagame would be a good idea. Also interesting to see how Colossoil would react.
 
creating a new move, nono. People what are we Create a pokemon or Create a move? We agreed on not creating new moves and abilities unless they are extremely necesary to fulfill a role (paleo-wave, mountaneer, rebound, etc.) but scylant who was the first CAP has been used without this "ice megahorn" since it was created, therefore he is usable without it and the move is not a MUST beyond all other options.
I agree with megahorn, t-punch, focus blast, superpower, grass knot, energy ball, etc. As well as a boost to the speed pre nerf stat 121 and perhaps by lowering its defenses increasing his attack or sp attack or both
 
I suggested that we make the ice move inaccurate so that it would be forced to use compound eyes, which means it will likely take 50% to switch in unless it leads because it lacks mountaineer. if Heracross were more like articuno, then you would have a more accurate analogy Class :) It would essentially make Syclant a more powerful, slower, more SR-weak Weavile as far as the SD set goes, but of course he will be far more versatile than Weavile.
 
GOTO2435 said:
creating a new move, nono. People what are we Create a pokemon or Create a move? We agreed on not creating new moves and abilities unless they are extremely necesary to fulfill a role (paleo-wave, mountaneer, rebound, etc.) but scylant who was the first CAP has been used without this "ice megahorn" since it was created, therefore he is usable without it and the move is not a MUST beyond all other options.
I agree with megahorn, t-punch, focus blast, superpower, grass knot, energy ball, etc. As well as a boost to the speed pre nerf stat 121 and perhaps by lowering its defenses increasing his attack or sp attack or both
Click to expand...

1. The concept is "make Syclant better." If it is agreed it fulfills the concept by making Syclant's physical options more viable and giving it an edge on Pokemon that normally counter it, then take it and run with it.

Also, aren't tutor moves on CAP server now? Technically Syclant has Superpower and Earth Power now...
 
Tortferngatr said:
Also, aren't tutor moves on CAP server now? Technically Syclant has Superpower and Earth Power now...
Click to expand...
Just checked. Earth Power is on there (being a tutor move that Syclant already had before the poll), whereas Superpower is not.

As far as stat spreads go, I'm quite happy with Fuzznip's. For me, a good mixed sweeper should have offensive stats as close as possible to each other (see Infernape) in order to maximize damage output on both sides. 120 Speed is fine.

Movewise, I am in favour of Focus Blast, Megahorn, Spikes and Psychic. Jury is still out for me on Earthquake, and I'm strongly opposed to a new Ice-type move. I would also be in favour of removing Super Fang.
 
Syclant's stat spread poll is up.

Just a friendly reminder to everyone to cut the discussion of Superpower, Earth Power, and the like. The moves listed on this page are considered to be in Syclant's movepool already. Also, a base 120 power physical Ice move is not going to appear in the movepool poll, as myself and several CRC members decided in #cap.

Super Fang, however, is open for discussion.
 
Stat spread poll is up... but it's invite only... so I can't post there.

As a result, I'll make my vote here, it may not count, but it can at least go for discussion:

67 / 116 / 70 / 116 / 64 / 117

Reasons? Firstly, it allows Scylant to outspeed almost all of the OU Metagame, and avoids speed ties with Azelf and co. However, there are some pokemon that can outspeed it still, such as Alakazam.

That is why I avoided 115 and 120+ speeds, I want to it outspeed Azelf, but not Alakazam, it might be too quick then, especially when you throw in stuff like Scarfers.

The difference between the attacking stats before was minute, and making them equal fits 'Mixed Sweeper' a lot better.

Defences are still bad, which is good.
 
An important thing to note about 117 Speed is that it also allows it to outspeed +Speed +1 Tyranitar. Iunno how important DDTar is in the metagame, but it's something to keep in mind.
 
I wonder why people ignore Grass Knot. Even with no EVs (i.e. on SD sets) it allows to 2HKO cleanly Arghonaut, the most common counter to every kind of Syclant (maybe not more than Scizor, but I digress). It does more than Psychic, and would help against other Bulky Waters like Suicune and Swampert
 
67 / 116 / 70 / 116 / 64 / 117
I will also vote here since the thread is invite only, i picked it becosue it outspeeds azelf making it possible for scylant to set up spikes as a lead and becouse 116 base atack and sp.attack is good enough for its attacks stats, plus they are even :)

@Plus: I didn´t mean to say that this is a vote, i mean to express that i felt that this is the scylant set i would pick now that i go over the post i realize that it was a bit confusing
 
GOTO2435 said:
67 / 116 / 70 / 116 / 64 / 117
I will also vote here since the thread is invite only, i picked it becosue it outspeeds azelf making it possible for scylant to set up spikes as a lead and becouse 116 base atack and sp.attack is good enough for its attacks stats, plus they are even :)
Click to expand...

idk where everyone is getting the idea that it's a vote, if anything people who can't vote should be trying to sway votes, not vote themselves lol

EDIT: @ GOTO#s and everyone else who "voted": Then perhaps expressing it in another manner than "I vote" would be better. Similar to polls where we do not allow "i voted x.", I don't think people would really care about your opinion unless you backed it up with evidence and a thorough and valid explanation as to why you stance is. Hell, if your argument is good enough you dont even need to express your stance, and people will listen to you more than "i voted this!!!!"
 
I'm a little disappointed everybody's shunning Admiral Korski's spread just because they don't like anything but multiples of 5 in their stat spreads (while I, on the other hand, find multiples of 5 to be too cliche). His spread is probably the best one, since it doesn't make Syclant TOO fast, while evening out both its attacking stats.
 
So Syclant getting another stats spread revamped and getting a few moves back, while I would like to add something here but everyone has it covered. The only thing I like to ask would be this "Would a Fire type QA really help Scylant in anyway?" Sure it can kill Scizor now with it, but after that what then?
 
Double priority, hitting both Dragon and Steel for super effective damage. Dragon is the master of offense (see also Mence [really the only example you need] and the now-Colossoil-usurped Ohm, also Dragonite with HG/SS awesome,) and Steel the master of defense (see also Metagross, Heatran, Kitsunoh, Magnezone, Skarmory, etc. And offensive steels like Scizor and Lucario pretty much abuse their resists to come in, then blow up stuff). Guess what happens when Syclant can take help take down both with a mere 40/60 BP move. And given Syclant's fast WITHOUT priority, having it means effectively Ant becomes the fastest useful (sorry Weavile...) priority user in the OU tier...

THAT's why 40-BP priority Fire with be Syclant's dream come true. Ability to take out Dragons without fear of several steel-types impeding gives it an edge (while maybe forcing us to think about a Cyclohm revamp...it's pretty sore from Soil already...)
 
Fire QA is a terrible idea on Syclant, it already has 4MSS, and giving it a move where it will STILL lose to Steel types not named Forretress and Scizor is pointless. Do also remember that doing this will make Syclant its own hard counter, since Syclant itself is 4x weak to Fire. You would need to run this coverage move just to beat other Syclant, and even they you would have to win a speed tie.

Sorry, An SE UnSTAB prirority only has an adjusted BP of 80. This is not going to be taking out Metagross or Jirachi any time soon.
 
What about creating some kind of conditional priority fire type move with a higher BP? kind of like Sucker Punch, but with different conditions to be met? has to be the last move left (like last resort)? I know I haven't been to active in this discussion I just though I'd put it out there.
 
Earthquake hits everything harder except Skarmory and Bronzong, who you lose to regardless of what moves you have. Syclant doesn't need a new move; I'm sure that some combination of Superpower, Focus Blast, Megahorn, and an increase in speed will work fine.
 
i am concerned about the fact that the new physical scylant will be stronger than the special one. There is a lot of discussion about the physical sweeper but none about the special (except of adding grass knot and focus blast). I just think we should make the special set better too
 
GOTO2435 said:
i am concerned about the fact that the new physical scylant will be stronger than the special one. There is a lot of discussion about the physical sweeper but none about the special (except of adding grass knot and focus blast). I just think we should make the special set better too
Click to expand...

Syclant is rarely seen as a physical sweeper, and Syclant's use as a TG/NP Sweeper is deemed much better than the SD or any other physical set for that matter. You may try Syclant on the CAP ladder if you wish to validate this as there isn't much of a change in stats tbh, but just because we have added Megahorn and Superpower does not make Syclant too strong on the physical side. It is more than capable on the special side, and that is probably the least of the concerns for Syclant.
 
To those of you saying yes to Super Fang, I'd REALLY like to know why you'd let it have something that's just disturbingly broken on it. It works for Pokemon who usually can't 2KO much of anything (i.e., Walrein), but on Syclant?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top