Revisions - Syclant discussion

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Guys, Fidgit is fast and can support. Plus has popularized the Stratagem suicide lead.

If we attempt to make Syclant the Ultimate Suicide Pokemon, we are basically making something that can do what both Strata and Fidgit can do, but with a speed that's just in the middle. Giving it support moves is not the way to go, in my opinion. Offensive sets are perfectly viable, it's just that certain conditions have to be met; Scizor must be gone, Blissey can't be around for Tail Glow sets. Isn't that the problem for a lot of frail special attackers, though? It's not helping Syclant out at all if we stuff a bunch of support moves in there just because it's not sweeping successfully every time it comes out.
 
Syclant DOES NOT NEED HIS SPEED ANY HIGHER. People want 121 speed. But there are only 4 pokemon it 120: Alakazam, Sceptile, Arceus, and Dugtrio. Arceus is banned, and the other three are UU. 121 speed is unneeded. 116 speed would be useful for speed ties, but the only things in OU with 115 Base speed are Starmie and Azelf, who are not the reason Syclant is so poor right now.

The real reason is Scizor and Blissey. And both can be solved with one change-Make Physical Syclant relivant again. This can be achieved with a simple Attack boost+a fighting move. CBScizor is normally BP/U-Turn/Superpower/Filler. Syclant shares Scizor's access to STAB U-Turn and STAB Priority in Ice Shard. If Syclant could run a U-Turn/Ice Shard/Fighting Move/Decent Filler CB set that had enough attack behind it, Blissey would no longer be able to switch in without worrying. U-Turn would also let Syclant scout for Scizor looking to switch in. Syclant already has most of the tools to beat its two greatest counters, he just needs some more Attack to make them usable.

Most threatening Physical Attackers in OU have at least 120 Base Attack. A good number for Syclant would be around 123 the same as E-Vire. This would be enough for Clant to take on a Scizor-like role that is actually fast. Syclant doesn't need so much SpA, when its normally going to be Tail Glowing anyway. 107 would be more than Infernape and Rotom-A, and still plenty to sweep with.

As for new moves, a fighting move is essentially needed to make Syclant a physical threat. Superpower is fine, but one that hasn't been mentioned much is High Jump Kick. It is less powerful, but doesn't have as awful of a side effect as Superpower if you plan on staying in for a few turns. It also isn't as easy to PP stall. The only downside would be Protect Blissey, which would annihilate it, but still be unable to switch in safely. An option of both High Jump Kick and Superpower would scare Blissey away. Vacuum Wave is a fine choice to take down Stratagem, and could work as a filler on an all out special attacking set. With those moves, plus an attack boost, Syclant becomes a decent option, instead of a poor one.
 
I actually think that Syclant should get Close Combat over Superpower. This is because most of the pokemon with Close Combat are fast and have frail defences whilst alot of the pokemon with superpower are slow and bulky. I can't actually see syclant using superpower but can see it with close combat. Also Close Combat both def drops helps fufill its role as "the ultimate suicide pokemon".

I also support trick as it would make Syclant a better choice user.
 
At one point in time, I had wondered if Syclant could have Focus Punch in it's arsenal, but now that I think about it, that's not really a move that would actually help him, being a Glass Cannon and all that. The same can be said about Counter, as it's not exactly something that should be in it's arsenal if it can't survive long enough to use it.

I would think Vacuum Wave would be priority in this type of a situation, seeing as it takes advantage of Syclant's high speed, while unfortunately unable to take out Scizor and Metagross. Though another good use of Syclant's speed would be to use Focus Blast, which has a greater effect, but is still unable to take out Scizor and Metagross.

Mach Punch, despite it's weak power, would take advantage of Syclant's currently high base Attack, something that all the sets have highly overlooked. Syclant can currently fill both types of sweeper roles, and has the right moves to be able to do it. Crunch and Brick Break are good for fill-ins for a Physical Sweeper role, but something I've never understood is why Metal Claw was incorporated into it's moveset. Even if it does have a chance to raise it's attack power 1 stage, how would that be able to work in a competitive battle?

I'm just going to stop there. Overall, Syclant has a pretty decent moveset, having all the right moves to fill in all the right roles, but it is seemingly lacking something. I'm not sure what that something is yet, but that'll probably be figured out along the way.
 
I'd like to see Earth Power added to Syclant's "tutor movepool", as it's an option in Platinum. This would make Tail Glow + Earth Power legal, as well as some other, less important combinations. This would allow it to hit Steel-types harder, meaning Metagross or Magnezone are no longer the end of the world for Syclant.

Close Combat is an interesting idea which fits the concept, but whether or not it's viable is another question.

ungulateman
 
To all people who say 121 speed is unneeded: this is false. Of course, the only Pokémon you are going to outspeed this way are Azelf, Starmie, Raikou, Alakazam, Sceptile and Dugtrio, and none of them are so relevant to make this speed boost really gamechanging. But you forget one important thing. If you need at least - let's say - 362 speed and you have base 116 speed, you will need to max out the Speed EVs, no matter what. On the contrary, if your base speed is 121, you are free to put some EVs in Attack to raise the power of Superpower/Close Combat (BTW, I'm completely in favor of Close Combat). Maybe it is not crucial, but certainly it is not useless.

@Raikarasu: Metal Claw was a decision of mine, and is there purely for flavor reasons.
 
zarator said:
@Raikarasu: Metal Claw was a decision of mine, and is there purely for flavor reasons.
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Ah, it was? I'm not exactly saying it was a bad decision, but I merely wanted to know why. If no reason is given, then I'm fine with it.

Ok, so looking back at the first post, it also said that it's abilities were under consideration. Having given input on it's movepool and stats, I'll move on to abilities.

Mountaineer is a very good ability for Syclant to have, so I feel that does not need changing. If used right, Compoundeyes works for him as well. But a lot of different options can be considered for Syclant's second ability.

I had originally thought about Speed Boost and Tinted Lens for Syclant, then I wondered how it would actually work. Having Speed Boost under it's belt makes Syclant like the non-ice version of Yanmega and Ninjask, and while they'd be able to vastly outspeed the competition, it wouldn't actually work if the opponent knows moves such as Bullet Punch, Aura Sphere, and Vacuum Wave, which hit regardless of speed and evasion. Tinted Lens can give a minor boost to attacks that aren't very effective against certain Pokemon, and as far as Syclant is concerned, it would certainly be able to use it's STAB moves to a greater extent, but they wouldn't be enough to kill threats like Scizor, unless Earth Power and Tail Glow are kept within it's movepool.

If Syclant is used in Hail teams with Abomasnow as a lead, Ice Body could also be considered, but it would not work to a good extent. Ice Body really only heals about 1/16 of any Pokemon with the ability's lost health, and Syclant's defenses are so low that it wouldn't exactly be a necessary asset, since it would be killed before it could heal. Even if it did heal, it would still be killed on the next turn, unless you happened to get very lucky.

I think there are 2 other abilities that could be considered for Syclant: Rough Skin and Sniper.

  • Rough Skin can deal unsuspecting damage to anything that kills it. Say, for example, Syclant is killed by a Pokemon with a Focus Sash. Rough Skin would deal at least a little bit of damage, while also nullifying it's Focus Sash. However, this will not work if the Pokeon has a Focus Band as it's item.
  • Sniper would work something like an unnecessary type of ability, but would still work for most sweeper sets. Syclant has a few select moves in it's arsenal with high critical hit rates such as Slash, Night Slash, and Shadow Claw that would highly benefit from this. But again, against physical walls such as Metagross and Magnezone, this would be deemed somewhat unnecessary.
And there's my input for abilities. Have fun with considering how these'll work.
 
Those abilities suggested are terrible, rough skin is pretty much useless and focus sash is unseen outside leads and even then it's still a terrible ability. Sniper is also bad because no sane Syclant runs those moves as stab X-Scissor is better than slash, shadow claw and night slash. Also you'd be leaving Cyclant ability up to chance.

Speed Boost and Tinted Lens would make Cyclant into a Yanmega clone which I don't think is wanted.

Overall, I think the abilities should stay the same the way they are as mountaineer is awesome and compoundeyes fills the lead niche well.
 
I fully support the idea of un-nerfing its base speed back to 121, and possibly giving it Flamethrower (just throwing it out there) as most of its sets are currently 100% countered by Scizor, you could run a Babari set with Flamethrower (Unsure if CB Bullet punch would KO through the berry), or to just catch Scizor on the switch-in.

Besides that, I dont support Close Combat because it would make Scylant able to defeat Blissey with little to no drawback, which should be able to counter almost all specially based Scylant. I do, however, agree with giving it Focus Punch for the reasons mentioned in previous posts.

Giving it spikes would help in the lead role, but the screens is a little too far. Spikes would make it the OU Frosslass, able to sweep/set up spikes as a Suicide lead. I support Spikes. I also agree with the notions of keeping the abilities as they are.
 
Last time I checked, no-one was saying 'Make Scylant able to beat Scizor'. People were saying 'Don't let Scizor get off without some damage'. Sclyant will NEVER beat Scizor. Scylant should never beat Scizor. Most pokemon have a 100% counter, and Scizor is Scylant's.

Personally, the talk of setting Scylant back to 121 speed is rather pointless. Alakazam is the only thing that would be stopped by the aformentioned speed boost, because Scpetile would be nuts to switch into Scylant, Dugtrio would risk Ice Shard KO'ing it, and Arecus is Uber. If you must, give Scylant a +Speed Nature, most Alakazam run Modest anyway, due to their high speed. Sure, it allows for a slight buff to mixed sets, but there are not that many Mixed Scylants running around, and any other Scylant will run 252/252.

Looking through the suggestions, as I stated before, I support Superpower making a return. I always envisioned Scylant as a Hit-and-Run type, and Superpower fits the bill. Also, Base 115 Speed makes Scylant the fastest user of Close Combat, and with such high offenses, it could actually end up being broken, due to not dropping attack.

Scylant could run through teams with a set of:

X-Scissor, Swords Dance, Ice Shard and Close Combat, with a single turn of set-up. Nothing likes +2 Ice Shards, even Scizor dosen't LIKE them (Heatran being the only possible exception within OU), and the 'counter' list is basically Rotom-A and Kit. One could even send Scylant in on something it dosen't like, then switch to Magnezone as Kit/Scizor somes in to stop it, stopping the few counters to this set cold.

Superpower drops attack, so is not as abuseable as Close Combat is.

Short Version, Close Combat = No, Superpower = Yes

Spikes, I actually support. It's a move I could see Scylant using. However, giving it any form of screening move I am against, as this aids bulk, and Scylant is not bulky, and is not supposed to be.
 
The way you guys talk, you'd think that Syclant was terrible. I actually think it's decent as is. I think Syclant has enough Speed already and I don't know what 121 would actually be good for except for beating other current 115ers. Focus Blast and Superpower really are appropriate on Syclant even if not required to be successful. With the latest release of tutors, nearly every Pokemon with an attack stat of 110 or higher go Superpower. Also, while it would probably be underused at best, Vacuum Wave might somewhat remedy its ability to take on foes like Scizor.
 
I feel that I should point out a couple of things.

1. According to this page, Syclant already has Vacuum Wave and Superpower as a result of Stellar giving him those moves; they just haven't been implemented onto the server yet.
2. According to the analysis, Tail Glow + Earth Power is already legal, and Syclant already learns EP as a tutor move.

I personally find Close Combat to be a bit too powerful. Superpower at least offers a downside to off-set Syclant using a powerful Fighting-type move (Focus Blast's is its incredibly shaky accuracy). CC's downside is negligible at best.
 
Guys, this is complete theorymon here. We can't decide it's broken unti, we test it out. Electivire was thought to be one of the best pokemon in the new DP era. Electivire is one of the worst. My point is: nothing's broken until we test it out. I don't want CC though. Too much imo.
 
With Syclant's purpose of hitting hard and fast, I'm suprised nobody has mentioned Quick Attack. We must remember that even with Syclant's base speed of 115, there are many Pokemon out there with priority moves as well. Alongside with Vaccum Wave, I think QA could be another good move to add. I do think Superpower would definately give Syclant more coverage as well.

I fully support the idea of un-nerfing its base speed back to 121, and possibly giving it Flamethrower (just throwing it out there) as most of its sets are currently 100% countered by Scizor, you could run a Babari set with Flamethrower (Unsure if CB Bullet punch would KO through the berry), or to just catch Scizor on the switch-in.
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Putting Flamethrower on an Ice-type makes no sense and is illogial and can't happen. Jynx can't learn Flamethrower. It's just not feasible.

I can also see Sniper replacing Compundeyes.
 
Alright I am totally late to this party, so most of this is going to sound old.

Syclant's primary problems come from its offensive movepool. It's abilities are two of the best you could possibly hope for given Syclant's typing. It really doesn't need a stat boost either, all its offensive stats are superior to Infernape already.

First: Sylcant has two abilities, Mountaineer and Compoundeyes. Right now, there is NO reason to use Compoundeyes. Syclant's only viable attack with less than 100 Accuracy is Blizzard, which can be boosted to perfect accuracy in Hail.

Therefore I support reinstating Focus Blast into Syclant's movepool, and adding Stone Edge. Syclant already gets the weaker Rock Tomb and Rock Slide, and fears of it slaughtering everything on sight with all those Scizor running around is no longer an issue.

Next the matter of Blissey: Superpower should be an ample solution, but I'll throw in this move to go along with my Compoundeyes point. I know I will be trashed because I probably argued against this adamantly two years ago, but how about Megahorn? It gives further competitive weight to Compoundeyes while also providing Syclant with a STAB that doesn't make it Scizor lite for offensive purposes.

Now I have been thinking about Earthquake. Syclant can already use Tail Glow + Earth Power, but I think Swords Dance + Earthquake is an entirely different beast, so I'm not thrilled about adding EQ.

The only support idea I like so far is Spikes. Plenty of Ice types already learn Spikes, and laying them down does indeed "hurt Scizor," since Scizor will have to switch into them each time in addition to SR. An SR Immune Spikes setter could be valuable.

The rest don't strike me as viable. Quick Attack is a poor Ice Shard.

Essentially I want to superimpose the concept of "one-turn stat-up sweeper" on Syclant. Meaning it can use Swords Dance or Tail Glow on a switch (or some kind of weak choiced attack) and then threaten a multitude of possible switchins.
 
Raikaria said:
Last time I checked, no-one was saying 'Make Scylant able to beat Scizor'. People were saying 'Don't let Scizor get off without some damage'. Sclyant will NEVER beat Scizor. Scylant should never beat Scizor. Most pokemon have a 100% counter, and Scizor is Scylant's.
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I fully support this

Personally, the talk of setting Scylant back to 121 speed is rather pointless. Alakazam is the only thing that would be stopped by the aformentioned speed boost, because Scpetile would be nuts to switch into Scylant, Dugtrio would risk Ice Shard KO'ing it, and Arecus is Uber. If you must, give Scylant a +Speed Nature, most Alakazam run Modest anyway, due to their high speed. Sure, it allows for a slight buff to mixed sets, but there are not that many Mixed Scylants running around, and any other Scylant will run 252/252.
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There will be a lot more Mixed Syclants running around if Syclant gets Superpower/Close Combat, trust me. And the critic you made to 121 speed could address also Infernape's 108 Speed (what sits between 101 and 107 in OU?), yet those extra Speed points allow Infernape to run mixed sets better.

Looking through the suggestions, as I stated before, I support Superpower making a return. I always envisioned Scylant as a Hit-and-Run type, and Superpower fits the bill. Also, Base 115 Speed makes Scylant the fastest user of Close Combat, and with such high offenses, it could actually end up being broken, due to not dropping attack.

Scylant could run through teams with a set of:

X-Scissor, Swords Dance, Ice Shard and Close Combat, with a single turn of set-up. Nothing likes +2 Ice Shards, even Scizor dosen't LIKE them (Heatran being the only possible exception within OU), and the 'counter' list is basically Rotom-A and Kit. One could even send Scylant in on something it dosen't like, then switch to Magnezone as Kit/Scizor somes in to stop it, stopping the few counters to this set cold.
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How in the blue hell is this Syclant going past Arghonaut? I'd rather send in the octopus rather than Scizor (who risk a hard hit from Close Combat) or Kitsunoh (which lacks a reliable recovery move and is often overtaxed since it is so good of a check to many threatening Pokes)

Spikes, I actually support. It's a move I could see Scylant using. However, giving it any form of screening move I am against, as this aids bulk, and Scylant is not bulky, and is not supposed to be.
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Unless Syclant gets 121 Speed (which would make Syclant the fastest screener around) I fail to see how Screens would be that threatening where Azelf runs the same strategy arguably better thanks to much less weaknesses (Azelf relies on not be 2HKOed by Metagross Meteor Mash behind Reflect, but good luck doing the same thing with Syclant)
 
After reading through the thread, I don't feel as if responding to each point individually is the best idea, so I'm just going to lay out responses for each thing that I feel deserves an opinion.

Scizor Issues

Why is everyone so concerned about this? Scizor was an issue to Syclant before the nerf, and is going to constantly threaten it due to its obvious typing advantage over it. If anything, the only reason this has become an issue is because of it's increased usage. If you want something Fire type to beat Scizor, run HP Fire. Flamethrower's only competitive merit is "oh my god this is beaten by a pokemon let's give it a move to be able to beat it!". However, with the Move Tutor addition of Superpower, Syclant's Scizor issue will be slightly reduced, with being able to damage a good chunk of damage to Scizor, (40.21% - 47.33%) (calculations made using minimum EVs in Attack, Defense and Hitpoints with both Syclant and Scizor, and a Life Orb). This stops Scizor from continual switchins to Syclant bar a Roost or support from teammates, and is already given to it as a Move Tutor.

Speed Issues

I thought that the best point made in the thread to this point was zarator's logic for raising speed. By raising the speed, back to pre-nerf level, or hell, even going to 120 (losing a speed tie to Alakazam, Dugtrio, and Sceptile is obviously the most influencial thing in the world, considering their use in competitive play and how easily they can switch into Syclant!). 208 Speed EVs and a Timid nature are required to outspeed Max + Nature Base 115s, allowing us to allocate an extra 44 Attack EVs, which even furthers Syclant ability to better do damage against its switch ins.


might add more later but i'm tired :(
 
Deck Knight said:
I know I will be trashed because I probably argued against this adamantly two years ago, but how about Megahorn? It gives further competitive weight to Compoundeyes while also providing Syclant with a STAB that doesn't make it Scizor lite for offensive purposes.
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Megahorn sounds like a fine idea to me. Its presence alone would make a SD set viable. SDClant's biggest problem has always been a lack of a real STAB move.

I don't see the logic behind Close Combat however. CC isn't going to improve Syclant anymore than Superpower or Cross Chop or HJK or any other Fighting move with a BP of at least 90 would-they all will get the same job done good enough. Syclants physical sets don't have enough power in general, which is mostly due to its weak STABs on that side. A sizable attack boost would be more useful than CC over Superpower.

I am also not convinced we should add any more speed. The only two base 115s in OU are Azelf and Starmie-neither of which are really hurting Syclant. The only pokemon Syclant actually has to outspeed is Latias at 110.

Oh and Syclant already has a good way to deal with Scizor-its called U-Turn. You send in clant, opponent sends in Scizor to counter while you U-Turn to Magnezone or Heatran or Gyarados. A Syclant with U-Turn and a solid counter to Scizor will help it more in the long run than CC or Vacuum Wave.
 
hydrolphin said:
Oh and Syclant already has a good way to deal with Scizor-its called U-Turn. You send in clant, opponent sends in Scizor to counter while you U-Turn to Magnezone or Heatran or Gyarados. A Syclant with U-Turn and a solid counter to Scizor will help it more in the long run than CC or Vacuum Wave.
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What are you saying, U-turn is fucking shit against Scizor on Syclant =/

The more realistice scenario is "you send in clant, opponent sends in Scizor. You either get blasted by Bullet Punch or screwed over by Pursuit, which hits before U-turn." I really have no idea why you would do anything else, the most realistic scenario in which Scizor would succumb to this method being a) a double switch or b) superpower/u-turn which would only happen due to a prediction war. Both, however, are highly unlikely. Pursuit is even pushing it.

EDIT: I see what you mean now, but that's still quite an iffy move, I still don't see how it *deals* with it effectively. Does Scarf Kitsunoh deal with Skarmory because it lures it in? No, it doesn't.

Quite frankly from the Syclant Playtesting from a couple months ago, I think we realized that only a few sets on it are noteworthy, and I really doubt that Syclant will be as effective physically as it is specially. SD clant fails to beat Skarmory, which is pretty disappointing, moreso than Focus Blast on Blissey, reason being Blissey gets its health chipped more frequently than Skarmory, and Blissey doesn't always have a response to Syclant. Skarmory usually packs a brave bird, even taunt variants sometimes do.
 
hydrolphin said:
A sizable attack boost would be more useful than CC over Superpower.

I am also not convinced we should add any more speed. The only two base 115s in OU are Azelf and Starmie-neither of which are really hurting Syclant. The only pokemon Syclant actually has to outspeed is Latias at 110.
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A sizable attack boost is quite possible THE worst thing that could happen to Syclant. Scizor, usually comfortably being able to switch in to Syclant, even without fearing Superpower.

In comparison of the two damages, both with Life Orb, Bulky Scizor (248 HP EVs)

125 Attack, sizable increase
Code: 
286 Atk vs 236 Def & 343 HP (120 Base Power): 136 - 161 (39.65% - 46.94%)

115 Attack
Code: 
266 Atk vs 236 Def & 343 HP (120 Base Power): 126 - 149 (36.73% - 43.44%)

The key thing to notice with this? Once Syclant's attack has been raised, Scizor instantly can only switch in to the move once. Hell, if you want Syclant to deal with it's counters better, use a specific Hidden Power.

The thing that burned me the most is the fact that you think Azelf and Starmie can't threaten Syclant. Azelf had Flamethrower on 31% of it's movesets, and 20% carried Fire Blast. That's over 50% of Azelf carrying a Fire move. How can't that threaten Syclant?. Another thing. Every single Starmie can 2HKO Syclant with Surf. How isn't that threatening? If anything, Syclant needs to be able to outspeed these things. This is without pointing out the fact that having 120+ Speed allows you to place more Attack EVs, essentially killing two birds with one stone.
 
Wasn't the argument against Megahorn purely flavor way back in the day?

"OK tennis step right up and lets give it Flare Blitz while we're here because we can"
 
If we are going to alter Syclant's stats, I suggest this compromise:

70/116/70/111/65/118.

Which is -3 SpA, +3 Spe.

Key things here are that you retain the bonus point for Maxing an EV + Nature, and you can comfortably outspeed Starmie and Azelf of the same nature. You are still slower than the Base 120s, most of whom don't do anything to Scyclant anyway outside of HP Fire, though Duggy can still get off an attack unless Clant is using Ice Shard. It's also 10 Base points higher than Ape and thus not aesthetically horrible.

121 is silly. This maintains the same BST while sacrificing minimal power or bloating Syclant out of proportion.

RE: Plus: Vs. Skarmory, how about Thunderpunch? Ledian, Volbeat, and Illumise get it so it isn't unheard of on Bug types. I don't think it will make the difference since Brave Bird will still KO and Skarm probably can't even be 2HKO'd without an SD boost, but it could be worth it.
 
Would it be possible to change Compound Eyes to another ability?

One idea would be Swarm since 1) Stealth Rock damage might be helpful for an end game sweep (with substitute) and 2) Swords Dance/Tail Glow + SubSalac can be a nasty sweep combo. Add in Megahorn and it can get pretty brutal for opponents to face.

A more extreme idea would be to swap Compound Eyes for No Guard, also adding Megahorn and maybe Dynamic Punch. It would not outclass Machamp IMO, and it adds a strong fighting move, makes Blizzard usable and there's also Megahorn in there.
 
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