The Effects of Certain Mechanics on the Metagame

Private Piplup

Have you ever wondered what Pokemon would be like without EV's or Natures? How about no IV's? This thread attempts to reveal their effects on the metagame.

*Note* This thread is meant for open discussion.

For Example:
Natures- I think one of the reasons 3rd gen turned out so defensively was the introduction of natures. Defensive Pokemon could use their nature to boost their (Sp) Defense, while most offensive attackers were forced to run a +Spd nature, effectively giving walls a 10% boost their offensive counterparts were not able to afford.

So what about EV's, IV's, items, and anything else you can think of?

Discuss away.
 
EV: I think EVs shifted the game towards offense. Probably the biggest change in the entire story of Pokémon mechanic-wise. Before EVs were introduced, when every Pokémon used to have the equivalent of 252 EVs in every stat, achieving a OHKO was nigh impossible. This, combined with the lack of set up moves like Dragon Dance (the only ones where Swords Dance and Curse, with only the latter enjoying decent distribution) made GSC so stallish. EV specialization is what allow frightening sweepers like Salamence to flourish in the first place.

IV: Aside from making in-game runs much less enjoying (0 IVs is so much more annoying than 0 DVs when the gap is 31 and not 15 points) and making breeding processes much more tedious, they had not any effect on the metagame. At least, not on the one played on the simulators.

Natures: What said the OP is true, but I think the effect of the introduction of EVs overshadowed it greatly

Items: Every generation contributed to the item department with a specific bias towards offense. Back in the GSC era, the only remotely viable item besides Leftovers was Miracle Berry (the equivalent of Lum Berry), however, with the inability of quickly KOing opponent walls, a status-removing item is a lot less unappealing. The introduction of Choice items, Life Orb and type-resist berries caused a huge shift towards offense, probably the most important change after EVs to date.

To sum it up, aside from IVs that hold no effect whatsoever and natures which did not affect the metagame so much, the most important changes - EVs and new items - shifted the metagame towards offense like nothing else could (besides maybe the introduction of new moves and the Physical/Special split), and that is why D/P is so much more fast-paced than GSC.
 
zarator said:
To sum it up, aside from IVs that hold no effect whatsoever and natures which did not affect the metagame so much, the most important changes - EVs and new items - shifted the metagame towards offense like nothing else could (besides maybe the introduction of new moves and the Physical/Special split), and that is why D/P is so much more fast-paced than GSC.
Click to expand...

IV's determine Hidden Power, so they're not as useless as you make them out to be. IV's play an even more important role in cartridge battles, since (unless you directly hack) it's much harder to get the ideal 30 or 31 IV in a stat (not as taxing anymore thanks to RNG manipulation!).

Natures also increase/decrease a particular stat by 10%, which is not a mere pittance. Every bit of speed, attack, or defense matters!
 
EVs: EVs force Pokemon to focus. Prior to EVs, every stat could be maxed without hurting others. With EVs, this is no longer the case. If you want good offensive capabilities, you have to sacrifice defense, or vice-versa. I think that helps the metagame, promoting diversity, and meaning Pokemon with some poor stats aren't hurt as much, since most Pokemon take a 'dump stat' anyway. It does, however, disadvantage balanced Pokemon.

Natures: Similarly, they permit Pokemon to focus, though they don't force it (you can run a neutral nature if you really want, though no-one does.)

Both EVs and Natures hurt mixed sweepers in particular. A mixed sweeper has to accept either lower offensive power or lower speed in comparison to a specific sweeper. It also has to accept a drop in either defense, whereas a specific sweeper drops the offensive stat it doesn't use. Mixed walls also get hurt, for similar reasons.

IVs: IVs I don't think have ever done anything useful. All it does is makes it harder to be competitive on the cartridges. The effort people are forced to spend obtaining Pokemon with good IVs is effort they cannot spend training more Pokemon and trying new sets. RNG manipulation makes the effort for good IVs reasonable, but not trivial, and many people struggle with the technique. Getting rid of IVs would promote more innovation and change in the cartridge metagame. Hidden Power would of course be switched to be based on something else.

Abilities: I think the main advantage is they help to differentiate otherwise similar Pokemon. Comparing Dragonite and Salamence, honestly one of the biggest differences is the former has Inner Focus while the latter has Intimidate. Some abilities are dubious mind - Shadow Tag rendered Wobbuffet Uber, Serene Grace gives a too-high flinch chance, No Guard gives Machamp a 100 base power STAB move that always confuses, Magic Guard makes the Clef* line low-level dicks. But generally, abilities enrich the game.
 
I actually think EV's made things more defensive. You can go 252 HP and 252 (Sp) Def, but you can't go 508 (Sp) Attk. Having the 252 cap on a stat means that while walls can invest in HP AND defenses to increase survivability, attackers can only pour so many EV's into an offensive stat and speed is usually an issue anyways. Even sweepers with priority (SD Luke, SD Scizor, and SD Quaza in Ubers) generally run 252 spe, albeit with a +Attk nature.

Abilities can be make-or-break. Consider Slaking and Regigigas. Both of these would be OU (if not uber for Regigigas) if their abilities weren't crap. Salamence and Gyarados are that much better since Intimidate allows them to set up more easily.

As for the difference between 3rd and 4th gen (HO in 3rd gen would have been lol'd at) I think items made a big difference, with the introduction of Life Orb, the foil to Leftovers, Expert Belt, and two new Choice items. However, the main difference is the physical/special split. Now everything gets usable STAB, which makes things much harder to wall. DDMence was denied Dragon Claw in Advance, but now with Outrage, the switch-in will invariably be KO'd or severely mangled.
 
Private Piplup said:
I actually think EV's made things more defensive. You can go 252 HP and 252 (Sp) Def, but you can't go 508 (Sp) Attk. Having the 252 cap on a stat means that while walls can invest in HP AND defenses to increase survivability, attackers can only pour so many EV's into an offensive stat and speed is usually an issue anyways. Even sweepers with priority (SD Luke, SD Scizor, and SD Quaza in Ubers) generally run 252 spe, albeit with a +Attk nature.
Click to expand...

Well you never COULD go 508 (Sp) Atk. In GSC you were basically 252 in everything. Which meant that (all compared to third and 4th gen) 'sweepers' still had their maximum bulk, making them harder to take down, while 'walls' still had their maximum offenses, meaning that they could hit back harder while still walling effectively. Take Blissey as an example. Back in GSC it got 248 special attack, respectable for a wall. Now it's going to have less, or else reduce its walling ability.

Now the effects work against each other - GSC has harder-hitting walls and bulkier sweepers.

Let's take as an example, Blissey ice beaming Gengar. (It doesn't matter if this is unlikely in real battles.

GSC: Blissey 248 SpA, Gengar 323 HP, 248 SpD. Gengar takes 21-26%.
DPPt: Standard Wishbliss 206 SpA, standard Gengar 261 HP, 186 SpD. Gengar takes 29-34%.

So it seems that EVs ought to favour defense, but not in the way you implied. Rather, the defensive loss to sweepers outweighs the offensive loss to walls. But that's in the case of sweeper vs wall, and a wall that is attacking, not purely stalling while poison or weather damages. In the case of sweeper vs sweeper, things hit harder, and speed probably matters more.

I guess tanks are what are really hurt badly by EVs, since they want all their stats. For example Snorlax nowadays must compromise between offense and defense.

I've actually wondered if it would be possible to set up a cross-generations Shoddy server. All gens have their distinguishing features - RBY gets special joined, but fewest moves and can't hold items. GSC can max every stat. RSE and DPPt can push specific stats higher with natures. I'm not quite sure how to handle physical/special moves - possibly if DPPt Gyarados Waterfalls GSC Blissey, it uses Gyarados' Attack (because Waterfall is physical in DPPt) against Blissey's Special Defense (because Waterfall's special in GSC.) I think that would be really interesting, given you'd effectively have 1281 Pokemon.
 
Sudo said:
IV's determine Hidden Power, so they're not as useless as you make them out to be. IV's play an even more important role in cartridge battles, since (unless you directly hack) it's much harder to get the ideal 30 or 31 IV in a stat (not as taxing anymore thanks to RNG manipulation!).
Click to expand...

I did not say IVs are useless. I said that the change from DVs to IVs did not impact the competitive metagame that much.

Natures also increase/decrease a particular stat by 10%, which is not a mere pittance. Every bit of speed, attack, or defense matters!
Click to expand...

Same as before, I meant the introduction of natures, not natures themselves.

You seem to have misunderstood my post. I wasn't discussing about how a certain aspect of the game is useful or not, but rather how the introduction of a new element in place of what there was before impacted the game.
 
I think that most of the changes geared the game towards a more offense style. If you look at teams today, you can find a high variety of offensive threats due to EV's being able to change which attack you hit off of, or if you want a faster sweeper that can set up with SD over DD. Whereas if you look at stall teams, they all generally use the same few pokemon, because a lot of walls can't take hits from boosted dragons and the like.

Another thing you could mention is the physical/special split, which really opened the game up to some physical threats.

I don't think that IV's really brought a huge impact to the game, considering all pokemon will just carry 31 in each IV, barring a few moves (Hidden Power, Gyro Ball, Trick Room etc...) And even in the case of Hidden Power, 1 IV won't make a gamebreaking difference unless it is in speed.

The change from 3rd to 4th gen favors the offensive side with items, as well. Giving offensive threats quick and easy ways to shut down walls with trick makes it much easier for them to set up sweeps.
 
I can't comment authoritatively on how each individual addition (IVs/EVs/Nature/etc) made a change in the competitive metagame when they were first introduced because I've only been in the competitive metagame for the 4th Generation. However, I can say, that cumulatively, they make an ENORMOUS difference. If you line up your Nature/IVs/EVs properly, you can 1HKO, outspeed, or survive hits from lots of pokes that you "normally" would not be able to. Each one individually doesn't seem to make that much of a difference in the 4th Gen metagame though (such as pumping 252 Spd into a 0spd poke! lol!)
 
Really? I though tiering shifts had more to do with new moves and new Pokemon. Abiilities, the special stat split, and the physical/special moves split also affect things.
Can you name anything that you think has been hurt primarily by the addition of EVs and Natures?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top