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Salamence has had the move that makes it "too much" since Platinum, and it's been in the metagame using the same mix of sets for months. Exactly what would make a suspect test any different from the last several months of ladder play? Now we will pay extra-extra special attention to how much Salamence is or is not interacting with teams?
The only real reason for a suspect test is to see how OU functions without one of it's biggest offensive powerhouses. Salamence isn't even close to the centralizing force Garchomp was, and it's lot got even worse when Latias was brought down to OU.
Why should we even be doing a suspect test on Salamence in the first place? We only do a suspect test if we feel that an OU pokemon might be Uber or if an Uber pokemon might be OU. We don't just do these tests just because we have nothing else to do.
IMHO, clauses. If we were to decide to allow evasion or OHKO moves, that might change whether or not certain things were Uber. While I don't have any reason to believe Salamence's tiering would be affected by those moves, I don't think anyone can prove it could not be. If we test Salamence, or any other Pokemon, then test and change clauses, we may well need to restest Pokemon.
Isn't the purpose of a Suspect Test to decide if very common suspicions about status as OU or Uber are valid? 55% or more saying OU, not Uber is very common; the other cannot be.
I didn't take the time to read every single post (as that is very hard for some of us), but from the first ten or so, I have my two cents ready. If I make my post redudant, do forgive me for not reading EVERY post.
Not trying to make any sort of discussion or comparison about the two, but Salamence is a bit like UU's Honchkrow, considered overpowered (for the most part), and unfair for it to be able to attack on both sides of the spectrum with such huge stats. Salamence's LO +1 Outrage puts dents in things, Honchkrow's Brave Bird easily 2HKO's everything in UU that doesn't resist it. And that's the point, Pokemon like these which are known for sacrificing any sort of bulk or recovery for power (yes, they have Roost) are going to find themselves dying quickly to a team that has good switches and a player who predicts. My vote that Salamence stays where it is, is to reinforce the idea that it has a almost mandatory effect on the Standard metagame, and to remove it would, yes, bring more threats to the table, but it would also, like a couple other posters have said, give an easier time to stall and bulky Pokemon.
I understand suspect testing isn't based on how they would survive in their new home or how it would effect their old one, but considering what everyone already knows about Salamence, its removal to Ubers would do little to improve the options in OU. People would still have to watch out for Draco Meteors, Dragon Dancers, Outrages (don't forget our pal Kingdra), etc.
Suspect testing Salamence is pointless, because personally, I think it found its place in OU (and in our fearful minds) a long time ago.
Also, if it were sent to Ubers, Rayquaza > Salamence to infinity =D
There's more Ice Shard and other powerful priority in OU than in UU, I think (Weavile and Mamoswine, Lucario, Scizor, etc.) and more potentially bulky things used in OU by definition (allows UU in), so Salamence finds his downfall there (from the OU counterthreats).
Isn't the purpose of a Suspect Test to decide if very common suspicions about status as OU or Uber are valid? 55% or more saying OU, not Uber is very common; the other cannot be.
It depends on context. A minority of 30% is still a substantial amount of the playing field, and after all, we're using percentages like 30% to determine 'common' battle conditions.
My vote that Salamence stays where it is, is to reinforce the idea that it has a almost mandatory effect on the Standard metagame, and to remove it would, yes, bring more threats to the table, but it would also, like a couple other posters have said, give an easier time to stall and bulky Pokemon.
I wouldn't go as far to say that stall would be 'more rampant' than it currently is if Salamence is removed, considering the metagame has shifted to 'semi-stall teams' anyway. With Salamence currently allowed, stall is used often on both the standard ladder and in tournaments, which takes away from the argument that 'Salamence should be allowed to stay since it prevents stall from being the dominant playtype'. If anything, I'd say Lucario beats stall more often than Salamence does single-handedly, but that's another discussion.
The biggest issue I have with Salamence is that in dealing with it, you almost always have to have some Draco Meteor or Outrage resist, limiting your team options to having two or three Steel-types almost always. And priority attacks aren't even always successful in beating Salamence. CB Bullet Punch from Scizor and Extremespeed from Lucario almost always need Stealth Rock support or other residual damage before killing Mence. To deal with one Pokemon, I don't wanna have to automatically add something like Mamoswine or Swampert that can retaliate properly. It limits my team options, and it really centralizes the metagame on 'I must have something to beat Salamence or my team is competitively inferior'.
Those are my two cents anyway. Salamence's ridiculous power from both the physical and special side means you need to have something to handle it, which usually involves dedicating a single Pokemon to hopefully take it out.
I beleive as long as stealth rock is still legal mence
can not be uber. You can argue this fact with raquaza however mence does not have the same movepool or ability to sweep with the damages calculated. Heck you can always counter a mence with a faster mence
I didn't take the time to read every single post (as that is very hard for some of us), but from the first ten or so, I have my two cents ready. If I make my post redudant, do forgive me for not reading EVERY post.
Not trying to make any sort of discussion or comparison about the two, but Salamence is a bit like UU's Honchkrow, considered overpowered (for the most part), and unfair for it to be able to attack on both sides of the spectrum with such huge stats. Salamence's LO +1 Outrage puts dents in things, Honchkrow's Brave Bird easily 2HKO's everything in UU that doesn't resist it. And that's the point, Pokemon like these which are known for sacrificing any sort of bulk or recovery for power (yes, they have Roost) are going to find themselves dying quickly to a team that has good switches and a player who predicts. My vote that Salamence stays where it is, is to reinforce the idea that it has a almost mandatory effect on the Standard metagame, and to remove it would, yes, bring more threats to the table, but it would also, like a couple other posters have said, give an easier time to stall and bulky Pokemon.
I understand suspect testing isn't based on how they would survive in their new home or how it would effect their old one, but considering what everyone already knows about Salamence, its removal to Ubers would do little to improve the options in OU. People would still have to watch out for Draco Meteors, Dragon Dancers, Outrages (don't forget our pal Kingdra), etc.
Suspect testing Salamence is pointless, because personally, I think it found its place in OU (and in our fearful minds) a long time ago.
Also, if it were sent to Ubers, Rayquaza > Salamence to infinity =D
Honchkrow is a pretty poor example, considering that salamence has no STAB 80 priority and no move that hits all of the pokemon who resists his main attack. For example, if you switch bronzong into mence's dragon dance, standard DD mence can' ohko with fire blast and won't be able to hit with EQ (IIRC LO FB is a 2KO on standard bronzong) while bronzong can hypnosis, trick a choice item, explode, etc. In addition, the Mixed set fails to 2hko (again, this is from memory, i could be wrong) with draco meteor/fire blast because of the special attack drop.
Whereas honchkrow's BB 2hkos almost all of the walls in the tier with brave bird, has priority to deal with the faster threats, has superpower to deal with all of the pokemon who resist BB, and can go mixed to eliminate the pokemon who do survive BB+Superpower. Also switching will not save you from Krow.
If salamence was moved to ubers, the metagame would be impacted by a significant amount. Having a bulky steel type would no longer be a necessity, flygon would become more popular as steel types faded away, etc. The main issue with moving salamence to ubers would be that there, he's just a shitty rayquaza without swords dance or extremespeed.
The biggest issue I have with Salamence is that in dealing with it, you almost always have to have some Draco Meteor or Outrage resist, limiting your team options to having two or three Steel-types almost always.
Two or Three steel types? Why would you need that many lol. 25%+6%+10% is already 41%. If you're switching in a Steel-type to take the hit I expect that you can deal with it with that Steel type. Let's assume it's Scizor. You can do 58%-69%, there is a nice KO. Let's assume it's Scarf Rachi and it's MixMence. Iron Head will net you the KO. Let's assume its CB Metagross carrying Bullet Punch. You've got the KO. Heck we can even go so far as to assume it's Lucario. Extremespeed is still doing 40%-47%, which means you're limiting Salamence to one attack after it beats Lucario. And those are just steel types.
And priority attacks aren't even always successful in beating Salamence. CB Bullet Punch from Scizor and Extremespeed from Lucario almost always need Stealth Rock support or other residual damage before killing Mence.
Almost always need the most definite common battle condition? You have to provide support to Salamence (a reason why it can't fit the Offensive Characteristic imo, support is not little effort) to get rid of SR. So it's almost always guaranteed to have 25% knocked off. Residual damage is on 1/5 teams through Tyranitar alone, so I'd say that's common enough to consider. CB Bullet Punch and Extremespeed Lucario both limit Salamence to one kill, which means you've done the job you were using it for - to prevent the sweep. Priority should be successful unless the Salamence user has gone to provide support for Salamence, in which case it's the same as any other sweeper. You've provided enough support for it to be able to sweep.
To deal with one Pokemon, I don't wanna have to automatically add something like Mamoswine or Swampert that can retaliate properly. It limits my team options, and it really centralizes the metagame on 'I must have something to beat Salamence or my team is competitively inferior'.
And these are the only ways to deal with Salamence? If they were, Stall wouldn't be quite so common I don't think. Smart switching can get around Salamence, as can scarfers, as can priority. And is it centralizing the metagame? Your team is competitively inferior if you can't take on Lucario effectively. Your team is competitively inferior if you can't take on Gengar effectively (which lacks counters as does Mence). Your team is competitively inferior if you fail to account for any threat and end up not having a way to play around that threat.
You don't even have to have a way to beat it after it has set up. If it can't set up, you've already beat it. Unless the Salamence user provides support for it to sweep, in which case, as I've stated, it's the same as any other sweeper. You had to support it in order for it to sweep effectively.
Those are my two cents anyway. Salamence's ridiculous power from both the physical and special side means you need to have something to handle it, which usually involves dedicating a single Pokemon to hopefully take it out.
If you don't have something to handle any other common sweeper, your team is going to lose to that sweeper and your team really sucks. And do you rely on two Pokemon to taking out sweepers? In a lot of my teams I count on something like Gyarados to handle Scizor or Swampert to handle Tyranitar or something like that. I don't generally plan out two Pokemon to take it on, although I may think of a way to defeat it in case I don't have that Pokemon or whatever strategy I could think of. A lot of your points just need to be extended and you see the apply to other teams or OU Pokemon. :/
So, there's always Stealth Rock and Sandstorm on the field?
Heck we can even go so far as to assume it's Lucario. Extremespeed is still doing 40%-47%, which means you're limiting Salamence to one attack after it beats Lucario.
It's like you didn't read the post besides that part. :/ Stealth Rock is the most definite battle condition you can have. Every team uses it because it makes 3HKOs to 2HKOS and 2HKOs to OHKOs. If Stealth Rock isn't on the field you stopped it or eliminated it for a reason, and that reason is more often than not to make sure your sweeper(s) or team can come in without it bothering you. Which means support/strategy that you're giving for it. In Salamence's case, you're providing support to it to make sure it isn't hindered by it's most prevalent foe, that of course being Stealth Rock.
And for as long as I've been here, SS has been a common battle condition and as I said later in the post, Tyranitar alone is on 1/5 teams and its the #4 most used Pokemon, meaning you need to at least consider it. Not to mention its
My post was in reference to him saying you have to have a DM/Outrage resist to come in. DM and DD are probably the most used first moves on Salamence, meaning you're probably going to get in those steel types safely. But hey, lets go on.
If Lucario comes in on Draco Meteor or a DD and does 40%. That's plus the already 41%. So it forces Salamence to give up 10% to beat it. 91% is gone from Salamence. This means one last move. Now you can switch into something like, say, Forretress. Sure you can say, he might predict your switch and know you're baiting/luring, but you can also say is a Salamence user with one last attack really going to risk wasting that attack or will they have the capability. Basically if you give up one Pokemon for one Pokemon and have stopped a threatening sweep you've done a pretty good job at handling the situation.
@"Because of Salamence, we need a Dragon Resist"--
I call bull-crap on that one. Please-- like you're not going to run a steel type if Salamence were gone? Steels are are almost universal now, and a good number of teams run 2-3! If you think that's all because of Salamence, you're crazy. If Dragon is the best type, Steel is without a doubt the second best type, and even if the dragon type didn't exist everyone would still be using them because of all their resistances, especially Ice and Rock being 2 of the most destructive types in the game (I'm sure we're all very aware of the power of STAB Ice Beam and Stone Edge in the meta, let alone SR). Do you honestly think that Metagross, Heatran, Scizor and Jirachi's popularity would be affected much by wether Salamence is around? If anything, Empoleon and Lucario would be more radical without Salamence around! Those are incredible pokemon in their own right.
How many teams really want to go without a fire resist (or 3?), a ground type to absorb electric attacks, fighting resist/immunity? Dragon isn't the only type that needs defensive preparation for.
Besides, are you really going to leave yourself open to be hammered by dragon type attacks just because Salamence is gone? I assure you that Dragonite, Latias, Flygon and Kingdra are all more than powerful enough to mutilate any team stupid enough to ignore them.
Two or Three steel types? Why would you need that many lol. 25%+6%+10% is already 41%. If you're switching in a Steel-type to take the hit I expect that you can deal with it with that Steel type. Let's assume it's Scizor. You can do 58%-69%, there is a nice KO. Let's assume it's Scarf Rachi and it's MixMence. Iron Head will net you the KO. Let's assume its CB Metagross carrying Bullet Punch. You've got the KO. Heck we can even go so far as to assume it's Lucario. Extremespeed is still doing 40%-47%, which means you're limiting Salamence to one attack after it beats Lucario. And those are just steel types.
No, you're not limiting it to one attack, especially if it has Roost and the player using Salamence isn't a dumbass. Salamence comes in at 75% assuming Stealth Rocks are out, kills something, and your two mentioned Pokemon (Scizor and Lucario) cannot kill it even after Life Orb damage (Scizor has a shot but its not guaranteed). Besides, why the hell should I use Scizor and Lucario anyway. Apparently I have to if I want to defeat the all-mighty Salamence. Same with CBGross, that thing is outdated anyway with the rise of the Rotom appliances.
Almost always need the most definite common battle condition? You have to provide support to Salamence (a reason why it can't fit the Offensive Characteristic imo, support is not little effort) to get rid of SR. So it's almost always guaranteed to have 25% knocked off. Residual damage is on 1/5 teams through Tyranitar alone, so I'd say that's common enough to consider. CB Bullet Punch and Extremespeed Lucario both limit Salamence to one kill, which means you've done the job you were using it for - to prevent the sweep. Priority should be successful unless the Salamence user has gone to provide support for Salamence, in which case it's the same as any other sweeper. You've provided enough support for it to be able to sweep.
As I already addressed above, you don't limit Salamence to one kill provided you use it properly and effectively. It's not like Stealth Rock is so much of a hindrance to Salamence that it is incapable of sweeping. You've provided me information regarding two steel types that can revenge-kill a weakened Salamence. What if I interject that Magnezone removes Scizor and Lucario, where goes your argument now? Is it limited to a kill a game now?
The offensive characteristic states that the Pokemon is uber if it is able to sweep a large portion of the metagame. Well, I provide Salamence with the right amount of support, and there's almost nothing that can stop it, which is the whole point of the discussion. Removing Scizor and Lucario is quite simple considering how often they use their priority moves to revenge-kill stuff. Salamence's case is not like any other sweeper because more often than not, Salamence can actually finish an opponents team. This is not the case with things like Gengar (which you mentioned, Blissey still walls it or gets Exploded on, in which case Gengar's dead too).
And these are the only ways to deal with Salamence? If they were, Stall wouldn't be quite so common I don't think. Smart switching can get around Salamence, as can scarfers, as can priority. And is it centralizing the metagame? Your team is competitively inferior if you can't take on Lucario effectively. Your team is competitively inferior if you can't take on Gengar effectively (which lacks counters as does Mence). Your team is competitively inferior if you fail to account for any threat and end up not having a way to play around that threat.
Competitively inferior you say? Go take a look at my Manaphy suspect team in the archive. I bet you will find a shit ton of weaknesses and problems with it, yet I was somehow #1 during that test with that 'crappy team'. Your team isn't competitive inferior if you can't handle threats correctly, you just have to be the better player and play around them. By your argument, every Pokemon team is competitively inferior because no one team handles every threat in existence.
As for your comment on stall, look at the composition of stall teams nowadays and then come argue with me that Salamence hasn't changed the face of stall. Scarf Tyranitar, Latias, Swampert / Suicune are all on stall for a reason, often on one team together.
You don't even have to have a way to beat it after it has set up. If it can't set up, you've already beat it. Unless the Salamence user provides support for it to sweep, in which case, as I've stated, it's the same as any other sweeper. You had to support it in order for it to sweep effectively.
Actually, this is where I disagree. If it can't set up, have you really won? All I need to do is click 'Draco Meteor' and something is taking at least 40%, even resists. Teams with Salamence on them don't even need to support 'just Salamence sweeping'. Often, Salamence weakens shit and then something else comes in and cleans up. By this definition, even if Salamence doesn't fit the offensive characteristic, it fits the support one, making it easier for other offensive Pokemon to sweep. Why do you think glass cannon teams are often successful - because Salamence is probably the best 'gonna die fast but cripple most of my opponents team' Pokemon.
If you don't have something to handle any other common sweeper, your team is going to lose to that sweeper and your team really sucks. And do you rely on two Pokemon to taking out sweepers? In a lot of my teams I count on something like Gyarados to handle Scizor or Swampert to handle Tyranitar or something like that. I don't generally plan out two Pokemon to take it on, although I may think of a way to defeat it in case I don't have that Pokemon or whatever strategy I could think of. A lot of your points just need to be extended and you see the apply to other teams or OU Pokemon. :/
Well, in that case, if you don't have a backup plan for such dangerous sweepers, I'd say you lose more often than not. What happens if CBTar uses Crunch and it causes a Def down on Swampert? Do you just give up? This is a separate argument anyway, it doesn't have anything to do with the topic at hand. I already addressed your 'team sucking' point above.
What if I interject that Magnezone removes Scizor and Lucario, where goes your argument now? Is it limited to a kill a game now?
The offensive characteristic states that the Pokemon is uber if it is able to sweep a large portion of the metagame. Well, I provide Salamence with the right amount of support, and there's almost nothing that can stop it, which is the whole point of the discussion.
The Uber characteristic also says "with little effort". Providing support requires effort. Many things can sweep a large portion of the metagame given "the right amount of support", whether it be elimination of counters, removal of entry hazards, baton passed boosts, weather, or whatever.
No, you're not limiting it to one attack, especially if it has Roost and the player using Salamence isn't a dumbass. Salamence comes in at 75% assuming Stealth Rocks are out, kills something, and your two mentioned Pokemon (Scizor and Lucario) cannot kill it even after Life Orb damage (Scizor has a shot but its not guaranteed). Besides, why the hell should I use Scizor and Lucario anyway. Apparently I have to if I want to defeat the all-mighty Salamence. Same with CBGross, that thing is outdated anyway with the rise of the Rotom appliances.
Kay. I didn't say you were limiting it to one attack but yeah, the general first move is either going to be Draco Meteor to hit the physical wall Pokemon that is coming to force you to Outrage or Dragon Dance to set up. Salamence doesn't just come out and kill something either lol, especially if it's MixMence and you're using Draco Meteor. If a steel type comes in you aren't killing something then either. Also, you missed the point of that whole thing I said. You said "two or three steel types", so I said, with a detailed explanation, that you really need one steel type and it doesn't have to be bulky. I called you out on your point, and said it was wrong. I didn't try and prove anything besides that, don't assume otherwise or try and bring up another argument.
As I already addressed above, you don't limit Salamence to one kill provided you use it properly and effectively. It's not like Stealth Rock is so much of a hindrance to Salamence that it is incapable of sweeping. You've provided me information regarding two steel types that can revenge-kill a weakened Salamence. What if I interject that Magnezone removes Scizor and Lucario, where goes your argument now? Is it limited to a kill a game now?
So you're saying, providing a put forth an effort to sweep and provide enough support for Salamence, I can make sure that it sweeps. If I use MORE than a LITTLE EFFORT I can sweep. If I do what I do for any other sweeper I can sweep. What makes Salamence so different from other Pokemon at this point? Also Magnezone doesn't automatically get rid of Scizor. You're saying they can't predict a switch-in and use Superpower? You're saying they won't U-turn and find out you have Magnezone and be able to predict after? Magnezone isn't a god that can automatically deal with all steel types, and I've brought this up in a previous post as well. You'll need more than a Magnezone to beat steel types.
The offensive characteristic states that the Pokemon is uber if it is able to sweep a large portion of the metagame.
Wrong already. The offensive characteristic states that Pokemon is uber if it is able to sweep a large portion of the metagame WITH LITTLE EFFORT.
Well, I provide Salamence with the right amount of support, and there's almost nothing that can stop it, which is the whole point of the discussion. Removing Scizor and Lucario is quite simple considering how often they use their priority moves to revenge-kill stuff. Salamence's case is not like any other sweeper because more often than not, Salamence can actually finish an opponents team. This is not the case with things like Gengar (which you mentioned, Blissey still walls it or gets Exploded on, in which case Gengar's dead too).
Provided I give Lucario the right amount of Support, there is almost nothing that can stop it. Provided I give Infernape the right amount of support, there is almost nothing that can stop it. Provided I give any sweeper the right amount of support, there is almost nothing that can stop it. Why it eluded you that you could do that for any other Pokemon, I don't know. Removing priority users is the same for other Pokemon too.
Now to address that bullshit about Gengar. If Blissey stops Gengar, I'll pack the support to eliminate Blissey, just like you would pack support for Salamence. Heck, you're packing support to get rid of Scizor, so will I. Now Gengar is in a position where it can finish an opponents team, especially since it can already do >50% to most OU Pokemon with Shadow Ball alone, and gets plenty of Super Effective coverage with Thunderbolt and Focus Blast in the wings, not to mention whatever move you want to run in the fourth slot. You see how Gengar and Salamence are the same in this example? You're running support to eliminate the Pokemon that interfere with the sweep, then you proceed to sweep.
Competitively inferior you say? Go take a look at my Manaphy suspect team in the archive. I bet you will find a shit ton of weaknesses and problems with it, yet I was somehow #1 during that test with that 'crappy team'. Your team isn't competitive inferior if you can't handle threats correctly, you just have to be the better player and play around them. By your argument, every Pokemon team is competitively inferior because no one team handles every threat in existence.
YES. THANK YOU. YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING THIS WHOLE TIME. You've basically shown right there with your team and example that if you can play around a threat or if a Pokemon cannot set up on you, then that Pokemon is not a threat to your team. Salamence can be played with just like that, which I'm pretty sure I said in my post somewhere. Yeah I did, "If it can't set up you've already beat it", "Stall wouldn't be able to take it if this was the only way", plus all my other posts in this thread. I've been saying this the whole time, and why you can't apply it to Salamence I don't know.
As for your comment on stall, look at the composition of stall teams nowadays and then come argue with me that Salamence hasn't changed the face of stall. Scarf Tyranitar, Latias, Swampert / Suicune are all on stall for a reason, often on one team together.
Don't play Stall, can't say anything about it, but hey, Metagames adapt to the most common threats right? If Infernape suddenly got a new item that boosted the power of Fighting and Fire moves by 1.5x (extreme example but gets the point across) it would probably be used a lot more wouldn't it? And then you'd have to adapt to taking on that threat. So your standard run 6 bulky/defensive Pokemon with entry hazards was changed, it would have happened eventually due to the offensive nature of the metagame. I doubt Salamence alone did it though. Are Scarf Ttar, Latias, Swampert/Suicune all run (and together? Scarf all of those?) just to solely counter Salamence? And if so why wasn't this called earlier in the year? We've been playing with this beast for almost a year, why did it take you like 8 months to decide that it's changed the metagame so much?
Actually, this is where I disagree. If it can't set up, have you really won? All I need to do is click 'Draco Meteor' and something is taking at least 40%, even resists. Teams with Salamence on them don't even need to support 'just Salamence sweeping'. Often, Salamence weakens shit and then something else comes in and cleans up. By this definition, even if Salamence doesn't fit the offensive characteristic, it fits the support one, making it easier for other offensive Pokemon to sweep. Why do you think glass cannon teams are often successful - because Salamence is probably the best 'gonna die fast but cripple most of my opponents team' Pokemon.
If you're using Draco Meteor, you're probably using a Mixed Set. Which means you aren't setting up. Which means you are prone to an easier revenge kill. By anything with a scarf at Base 50 or something.
To address your point about Salamence fitting the support characteristic, you're saying it does that by wallbreaker, right? Well meet Dragonite, a Pokemon that breaks walls better, if not equal to, Salamence. So I guess we should ban it for that. Meet Infernape, who is one of the best wall breakers in OU. In fact it can 2HKO everything but Starmie I think. Meet Gengar, who with just Shadow Ball has the ability to 2HKO everything but Ttar, Blissey and Scizor. Even then with Focus Blast it can take care of Ttar, and HP Fire it can deal with Scizor. I've addressed that point already in this thread, I'll link you to the post(s) even if you would like.
Well, in that case, if you don't have a backup plan for such dangerous sweepers, I'd say you lose more often than not. What happens if CBTar uses Crunch and it causes a Def down on Swampert? Do you just give up? This is a separate argument anyway, it doesn't have anything to do with the topic at hand. I already addressed your 'team sucking' point above.
That point, again, was against one of your points. You said, and I quote: "Salamence's ridiculous power from both the physical and special side means you need to have something to handle it, which usually involves dedicating a single Pokemon to hopefully take it out."
What did I say? "And do you rely on two Pokemon to taking out sweepers?"
Do you always carry two Pokemon to deal with an offensive threat, was the question I was trying to get across. I don't. I either have a counter, a check, or a plan to play around it. I don't know how you missed that one.
Kay. I didn't say you were limiting it to one attack but yeah, the general first move is either going to be Draco Meteor to hit the physical wall Pokemon that is coming to force you to Outrage or Dragon Dance to set up. Salamence doesn't just come out and kill something either lol, especially if it's MixMence and you're using Draco Meteor. If a steel type comes in you aren't killing something then either. Also, you missed the point of that whole thing I said. You said "two or three steel types", so I said, with a detailed explanation, that you really need one steel type and it doesn't have to be bulky. I called you out on your point, and said it was wrong. I didn't try and prove anything besides that, don't assume otherwise or try and bring up another argument.
Ok, use one steel type, lets say Scarf Jirachi. Who says Salamence is going to stay in after Draco Meteoring Jirachi for 55%? You aren't killing it this turn, but you surely are killing it next time. What's the point of carrying ScarfRachi on a team if its suppose to be able to take hits from Salamence but ends up being 2HKO'd? After all, you just said it doesn't have to be bulky, and I only need one steel type. Yeah, clearly one steel type works well against Salamence. I'm not addressing your other team members at this point, only your argument that you need one non-bulky steel to combat Salamence.
So you're saying, providing a put forth an effort to sweep and provide enough support for Salamence, I can make sure that it sweeps. If I use MORE than a LITTLE EFFORT I can sweep. If I do what I do for any other sweeper I can sweep. What makes Salamence so different from other Pokemon at this point? Also Magnezone doesn't automatically get rid of Scizor. You're saying they can't predict a switch-in and use Superpower? You're saying they won't U-turn and find out you have Magnezone and be able to predict after? Magnezone isn't a god that can automatically deal with all steel types, and I've brought this up in a previous post as well. You'll need more than a Magnezone to beat steel types.
And you missed what I said about Scizor and Lucario firing off their priority attacks often because they are relied to revenge-kill stuff. I'd say that makes it pretty easy for Magnezone to come in and clean up.
Provided I give Lucario the right amount of Support, there is almost nothing that can stop it. Provided I give Infernape the right amount of support, there is almost nothing that can stop it. Provided I give any sweeper the right amount of support, there is almost nothing that can stop it. Why it eluded you that you could do that for any other Pokemon, I don't know. Removing priority users is the same for other Pokemon too.
Alright, what support are you gonna give Lucario? Something to remove Gyarados, Zapdos, and other 'counters' right? Well, what Pokemon gets rid of these 'counters' huh? Same with Infernape, no one Pokemon gets rid of its biggest nuisance. Not one Pokemon can get rid of them like Magnezone can for Salamence. The difference between the Magnezone / Salamence pair versus the Magnezone / other dragon pair is the fact that Salamence can, and will hit, any switch-in harder than the other dragons due to its power on both sides of the offensive spectrum. Hell, Salamence doesn't always need support to sweep anyway because it can hit its 'switch-ins' for a kill anyway. I can simply Draco Meteor or Fire Blast at will, and nothing can safely switch in.
Now to address that bullshit about Gengar. If Blissey stops Gengar, I'll pack the support to eliminate Blissey, just like you would pack support for Salamence. Heck, you're packing support to get rid of Scizor, so will I. Now Gengar is in a position where it can finish an opponents team, especially since it can already do >50% to most OU Pokemon with Shadow Ball alone, and gets plenty of Super Effective coverage with Thunderbolt and Focus Blast in the wings, not to mention whatever move you want to run in the fourth slot. You see how Gengar and Salamence are the same in this example? You're running support to eliminate the Pokemon that interfere with the sweep, then you proceed to sweep.
Your argument is assuming that once Blissey is gone, Gengar can sweep. As I said before, players carry multiple counters and checks to a single Pokemon. Just look at the top 5 used Pokemon. Scizor, Tyranitar, and Scarf Heatran can all beat Gengar, and Latias can speed tie. The same cannot be said about Salamence, as it can beat most of the top 5 depending on its set. Salamence does not need support to beat these Pokemon individually either, whereas something like Gengar will (cannot beat Tyranitar alone, etc). Like I said to your 'only one steel is necessary' comment above, Salamence would outright destroy your team if that was your battling philosophy.
YES. THANK YOU. YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING THIS WHOLE TIME. You've basically shown right there with your team and example that if you can play around a threat or if a Pokemon cannot set up on you, then that Pokemon is not a threat to your team. Salamence can be played with just like that, which I'm pretty sure I said in my post somewhere. Yeah I did, "If it can't set up you've already beat it", "Stall wouldn't be able to take it if this was the only way", plus all my other posts in this thread. I've been saying this the whole time, and why you can't apply it to Salamence I don't know.
Or it could be that I can play around it because I'm a good battler, not because it isn't a threat to my team. I'm sure good players can play around Rayquaza if it dropped to OU, does that mean that Rayquaza should be OU?
Don't play Stall, can't say anything about it, but hey, Metagames adapt to the most common threats right? If Infernape suddenly got a new item that boosted the power of Fighting and Fire moves by 1.5x (extreme example but gets the point across) it would probably be used a lot more wouldn't it? And then you'd have to adapt to taking on that threat. So your standard run 6 bulky/defensive Pokemon with entry hazards was changed, it would have happened eventually due to the offensive nature of the metagame. I doubt Salamence alone did it though. Are Scarf Ttar, Latias, Swampert/Suicune all run (and together? Scarf all of those?) just to solely counter Salamence? And if so why wasn't this called earlier in the year? We've been playing with this beast for almost a year, why did it take you like 8 months to decide that it's changed the metagame so much?
This comment is making me laugh so much. Do you know how long it took the community to realize that Deoxys-S was uber? Come on, you act like it takes us moments to figure out whether this Pokemon is uber or not. Sets take time to be developed, and not all of a Pokemon's potential is instantaneously discovered upon its usage. The dual screen Deoxys-S set took a long ass time to realize, and that is the set that ultimately brought about its testing and banishment. The commonly used 4 attack Life Orb set was what was originally used, and that was seen as OU by most of the community. Metagames adapt, you are correct, and the metagame adapted most recently to the rise in the usage of dragons, most notably Salamence.
If you're using Draco Meteor, you're probably using a Mixed Set. Which means you aren't setting up. Which means you are prone to an easier revenge kill. By anything with a scarf at Base 50 or something.
It seems like all you've said so far is that priority attacks and Choice Scarfers beat Salamence; I think the same can be said for all the other 492 Pokemon, including those in the Uber tier. I think its time we bring them down as well because they are similar to Salamence in how you deal with them, right?
To address your point about Salamence fitting the support characteristic, you're saying it does that by wallbreaker, right? Well meet Dragonite, a Pokemon that breaks walls better, if not equal to, Salamence. So I guess we should ban it for that. Meet Infernape, who is one of the best wall breakers in OU. In fact it can 2HKO everything but Starmie I think. Meet Gengar, who with just Shadow Ball has the ability to 2HKO everything but Ttar, Blissey and Scizor. Even then with Focus Blast it can take care of Ttar, and HP Fire it can deal with Scizor. I've addressed that point already in this thread, I'll link you to the post(s) even if you would like.
I'll assume you're talking about the Dragonite that uses Draco Meteor, Fire Blast, Superpower, and Extremespeed. Hate to break it to you, but that set can't even beat Suicune (crocune EV's) one on one (needs SR support, but even then its not guaranteed, assuming EV's on Dragonite that are on-site). Salamence of course, can beat the same Suicune. Not only is there a power difference, the speed difference is obviously important, with Salamence being able to tie those Steel types, whereas Dragonite is outsped. There are a plethora of factors that make Salamence the questionmark, not something like Dragonite. In terms of Infernape, yeah Latias walls all sets; some wallbreaker huh (and Infernape 2HKO's Starmie as well, for your kind information).
That point, again, was against one of your points. You said, and I quote: "Salamence's ridiculous power from both the physical and special side means you need to have something to handle it, which usually involves dedicating a single Pokemon to hopefully take it out."
What did I say? "And do you rely on two Pokemon to taking out sweepers?"
Do you always carry two Pokemon to deal with an offensive threat, was the question I was trying to get across. I don't. I either have a counter, a check, or a plan to play around it. I don't know how you missed that one.
Um what I said isn't incorrect. You usually have to dedicate a single Pokemon to take it out, plus a few checks, which ends up being 2-3 Pokemon in total. You have a primary Pokemon that you switch in on Salamence, such as Swampert, and then some additional checks, such as Scarf Jirachi or Scizor, which aren't reliable as I've constantly said. Instead of countering my points, you were countering my articulation; that doesn't do your point of view any justice.
Just for the sake of interest I opened tabs for Rayquaza, Salamence and Dragonite. When you put them all side by side it kinda becomes clear why they dragons are so scary.
They all have a decently fat HP, base 91-105 is pretty nice, especially considering Mence is often described as frail and easily revenged.
They all have stupid Attack stats, for all intensive purposes they are all as strong as each other on the physical side.
All have pretty respectable defenses too, arguably Intimidate means that Ray actually has the worst defenses of the three some of the time.
Special Attack wise, Ray is clearly superior, but the OU dragons both have meaty stats there too.
Special Defense, mence is easily weakest here, but with the typing advantages it can still take special hits from a number of things.
Speed is where it gets interesting. Mence is the fastest, and hits 100 speed which makes it faster than a lot of important things, sure it doesn't get Extremespeed like the other two, but it doesn't need it nearly as much. The others are fast enough to smash walls into submission, but not fast enough for any offensive theats unlike Mence.
Obviously their movepools have some key differences (Swords Dance, ES, etc) and their stats and abilities differ them, but they are all fairly similar so its interesting as to exactly what it is that makes Ray Uber, Salamence firmly OU and Draggy not all that common a sight.
Ok, use one steel type, lets say Scarf Jirachi. Who says Salamence is going to stay in after Draco Meteoring Jirachi for 55%? You aren't killing it this turn, but you surely are killing it next time. What's the point of carrying ScarfRachi on a team if its suppose to be able to take hits from Salamence but ends up being 2HKO'd? After all, you just said it doesn't have to be bulky, and I only need one steel type. Yeah, clearly one steel type works well against Salamence. I'm not addressing your other team members at this point, only your argument that you need one non-bulky steel to combat Salamence.
Okay sure. You can say that. All I said was you can just use one non bulky steel type to take care of a Salamence. Hey, let's even go so far as to say it attacks and switches out. 25%+6%+10%+6%+25%+6%=78%. That's just from doing that hit to Jirachi and switching out and on the switch back in. So you gave up almost 80% of your health from one attack and switching back in. Did the job you gave the steel type, make sure Salamence didn't sweep/threaten your team. If Salamence quite as threatening now that it has no health left? It really isn't. You can lure/bait an attack to get it to die after it kills whatever you sacrifice after that (the attacking turn leaving it with 6%) or you can protect with something and let SS finish it. So you don't even need other steel types and we're still in this same example.
And you missed what I said about Scizor and Lucario firing off their priority attacks often because they are relied to revenge-kill stuff. I'd say that makes it pretty easy for Magnezone to come in and clean up.
I usually see Scizor spamming U-turn more than Bullet Punch, especially early game, and Lucario saved for mid-late game. And you're still running support and Magnezone still isn't taking out all steels, guaranteed. It can yes, take them all out (bar scarftran I would suppose or scarfrachi with fire punch) but that's also only guaranteed for revenging.
Alright, what support are you gonna give Lucario? Something to remove Gyarados, Zapdos, and other 'counters' right? Well, what Pokemon gets rid of these 'counters' huh? Same with Infernape, no one Pokemon gets rid of its biggest nuisance. Not one Pokemon can get rid of them like Magnezone can for Salamence. The difference between the Magnezone / Salamence pair versus the Magnezone / other dragon pair is the fact that Salamence can, and will hit, any switch-in harder than the other dragons due to its power on both sides of the offensive spectrum. Hell, Salamence doesn't always need support to sweep anyway because it can hit its 'switch-ins' for a kill anyway. I can simply Draco Meteor or Fire Blast at will, and nothing can safely switch in.
Standard SD Set from Lucario Analysis. You need to beat Gliscor, Gyarados, Zapdos, Salamence, Gengar, and Jirachi with Fire Punch. Scarf Latias can OHKO Gliscor, Salamence, Gengar, and Zapdos with Draco Meteor. It can hit Gyarados with Thunderbolt. It can't beat Jirachi. That's with Scarf. You could probably run Haban just to make sure it gets in on Salamence safely and you're still beating all of them bar a speed tie with Gengar. Sounds close enough to Salamence eh?
Magnezone can beat steel types (sort of), sure. But can it beat other priority users? Can it make sure scarf Pokemon like Gengar, Starmie, and Latias are out of the picture? Can you rest assured Porygon2 won't come and undo your DD? Are you positive Swampert will be at low enough health so that it can't take an Outrage and OHKO back with Ice Beam? Are you sure Hippowdon can't take a hit and Roar you out, making sure that all you did was weaken him? Has Magnezone made sure that all Ice Shard users are not there to revenge you? Are all of these Pokemon checked/countered by Magnezone alone? Can he make sure all of these Pokemon are gone? And what about Bronzong! All of these Pokemon threaten Salamence's sweep as well. Can Magnezone eliminate them all?
Your argument is assuming that once Blissey is gone, Gengar can sweep. As I said before, players carry multiple counters and checks to a single Pokemon. Just look at the top 5 used Pokemon. Scizor, Tyranitar, and Scarf Heatran can all beat Gengar, and Latias can speed tie. The same cannot be said about Salamence, as it can beat most of the top 5 depending on its set. Salamence does not need support to beat these Pokemon individually either, whereas something like Gengar will (cannot beat Tyranitar alone, etc). Like I said to your 'only one steel is necessary' comment above, Salamence would outright destroy your team if that was your battling philosophy.
No, I am carrying Magnezone as well! So I can eliminate Scizor! Tyranitar is beaten by Gengar, I don't know what you're thinking. 252/252 Careful has a shot of being OHKOd by Standard LO Focus Blast (81.2% - 96% in sand!), and I doubt that is common. So let's assume that I'm running Gengar, with Magnezone in the wings to deal with Scizor and then something to deal with Latias and Scarf Heatran. Tyranitar! It takes two Pokemon to,for the most part, guarantee a sweep then. I still have 3 other teammates.
Salamence needs support to beat all of those Pokemon individually. Salamence cannot beat the top 5 alone. It straight up loses to Scizor. It won't OHKO Rotom-A without using Outrage after setting up, who can Thunderbolt (Standard set) for 50%. I don't see you beating Latias unless you've set up already who can OHKO with Dragon Pulse. You will also speed tie with other Salamence which you will beat with Outrage or it will beat you with Outrage, unless you have already set up. So you have to be set up to deal with three of the top 5, and you lose to one.
Or it could be that I can play around it because I'm a good battler, not because it isn't a threat to my team. I'm sure good players can play around Rayquaza if it dropped to OU, does that mean that Rayquaza should be OU?
If you're a good player and can play around a threat to your team, it isn't going to sweep your team. Rayquaza could not be played around without giving up 2 or 3 Pokemon. Base 150 attacking stats running the same moveset it would be OHKOing at least 25 things before it set up. (Salamence OHKOs 32 after setting up.) After a DD, it could easily destroy much more than Salamence could. Rayquaza is different from Mence and it has already been discussed in this thread.
This comment is making me laugh so much. Do you know how long it took the community to realize that Deoxys-S was uber? Come on, you act like it takes us moments to figure out whether this Pokemon is uber or not. Sets take time to be developed, and not all of a Pokemon's potential is instantaneously discovered upon its usage. The dual screen Deoxys-S set took a long ass time to realize, and that is the set that ultimately brought about its testing and banishment. The commonly used 4 attack Life Orb set was what was originally used, and that was seen as OU by most of the community. Metagames adapt, you are correct, and the metagame adapted most recently to the rise in the usage of dragons, most notably Salamence.
No, that's not what I'm saying. You're making me laugh so much lol. Deoxys-S, if I know the story right, wasn't used in the way it was found to be Uber (Dual Screen Lead or something right?) Salamence is the same as it was when we got it. It had the same four moves, it used the same four moves. It ran the same set then that it runs now. Deoxys-S used a different set when it wasn't Uber, with different EVs and a different item. Salamence is the same as it has been since Platinum. In fact, let me go to the May 2009 Stats, at least two months after Outrage Mence.
So what's the difference between Deoxys-S and Salamence? Deoxys-S, as you said, ran a Life Orb set at first. Later it ran a Dual Screen set, as you said, and was discovered to be Uber. Salamence has been running the same set for lets see how long...at least 7 months. So Salamence has been sitting up around 20% usage for 7 months now, and it took us 7 months to go "Hey, this Pokemon is Uber ! I did not realize during the last 7 months where most Pokemon have been exactly the same as well as their statistical usage that Salamence was Uber !" That's what it looks like right now. In fact, here is the top 10 Pokemon then and now, just for comparison as well:
So lets look at top ten changes in the the metagame then and now. Gengar has fallen out of the top 10 (by only .7 points) and Swampert has fallen out of the top 10. Other than that, the top 10 has remained the same basically. So with a virtually exact same metagame (I'll go farther and list top 20 if you want, as only 4 Pokemon have moved into the top 20 that weren't there before [ Vaporeon, Gliscor, Machamp, and Magnezone ] while of the four who moved [ Skarmory, Breloom, Bronzong, Jolteon ], two are in the top 25 still. I could even list items, natures, and moves of these Pokemon and you could see they are the same, maybe slightly different. The metagame hasn't changed much since Salamence got Outrage, so why it has taken so long to determine it should be Uber baffles me.
And I tell you, it seems like then would have really been prime time to call Salamence Uber. Less Tyranitar means less sand, and Tyranitar wasn't 3rd teammate, it was all the way in double digits at 11. So Sand is even more prevalent now than it was then ! It seems like all that has changed is Latias has made it easier to revenge Salamence and Sand has become more prevalent in the metagame than it was.
It seems like all you've said so far is that priority attacks and Choice Scarfers beat Salamence; I think the same can be said for all the other 492 Pokemon, including those in the Uber tier. I think its time we bring them down as well because they are similar to Salamence in how you deal with them, right?
Okay, I think I fixed that earlier in this post, I was just saying if you're running mixed your more prone to revenge kills than you already were :/
I'll assume you're talking about the Dragonite that uses Draco Meteor, Fire Blast, Superpower, and Extremespeed. Hate to break it to you, but that set can't even beat Suicune (crocune EV's) one on one (needs SR support, but even then its not guaranteed, assuming EV's on Dragonite that are on-site). Salamence of course, can beat the same Suicune. Not only is there a power difference, the speed difference is obviously important, with Salamence being able to tie those Steel types, whereas Dragonite is outsped. There are a plethora of factors that make Salamence the questionmark, not something like Dragonite. In terms of Infernape, yeah Latias walls all sets; some wallbreaker huh (and Infernape 2HKO's Starmie as well, for your kind information).
Dragonite can't beat Crocune o.O I'll assume the set you listed (Extremespeed is odd but I guess it's used. I don't use it personally, you aren't beating any steels with it) and test this myself! I will assume the same conditions we use when we are talking about Salamence. SR + SS. 57-67% with Draco Meteor. So it switched in on 12% + (I'll just go for middle number here) 62%. That's 74%. I don't know if Lefties will heal on the switch in turn but I think it does, so 68% taken, leaving 32%. At -2 Draco Meteor does 28%-33%, so it still has a chance to KO. You're right, it is a slim chance of beating it. Huh, thanks for pointing that out. Good to know. Although my set runs Thunderbolt > Extremespeed just because I don't find that useful, except for picking off Scizor at like 20% lol
Now to address that dumb point about speed. Speed difference isn't important on a wall breaker, especially when there aren't any Bulky Pokemon to break inbetween the speeds of Dragonite and Salamence. Assuming both Mixed spreads: Dragonite -246 Speed, Salamence -288 Speed. So anything between 246 and 288 exclusive. Nothing. Rotom-H, Zapdos, and Celebi are the common Defensive Pokemon found between their speed base stats and all of them run slower than Dragonite.
So speed has the following perks on Salamence: Allows it to hit anything between 246 and 288 Speed, exclusive, while Dragonite cannot. Let's see what that is in the top 20: Heatran, Gyarados, Lucario, and Gliscor. Four Pokemon, who can be broken by MixNite just as easily. Except Scarf Heatran might switch in on MixMence who is running BB > EQ. Then D-nite has the advantage. Gyarados can be beaten by Thunderbolt, so no need to waste Draco Meteor yet (I am assuming perfect prediction, both can beat it with DM I think), and then Lucario dropped by Flamethrower from both with Gliscor eaten by DM. So depending on how you look at it, each has their merits. I suppose it can be an opinion thing, but I find Dnite superior. Oh well, I suppose.
Also, let's not forget Infernape, who can manage to 2HKO everything in the top 20 but Starmie and Latias (due to failing to outrun it) using the Specially Based Mix Set. Spamming Fire Blast it can deal with everything but Latias, Blissey, Scarf Heatran, Starmie, and Vaporeon. So one move does it all but 5 Pokemon. Assuming the Physcial Based Mix Set (with Stone Edge and U-turn), it can take care of everything but Swampert (falls short 2%). Spamming Fire Blast it can deal with everything but Latias, Blissey, Scarf Heatran, Starmie, and Vaporeon. So one move + follow up does it all but 5 Pokemon. Spamming Overheat it can deal with everything but Latias, Scarf Heatran, Swampert, and Starmie. So one move + follow up does all but 4 Pokemon.
And then Gengar, as mentioned, has the ability with the Standard LO set (Shadow Ball / Focus Blast / Thunderbolt / HP Fire) has the ability to eliminate everything but Blissey in the top 20. And using Shadow Ball alone everything but Scizor, Tyranitar, and Blissey. It can still take care of Tyranitar before it takes care of Gengar. So one move + follow up does it all but 2 Pokemon.
Um what I said isn't incorrect. You usually have to dedicate a single Pokemon to take it out, plus a few checks, which ends up being 2-3 Pokemon in total. You have a primary Pokemon that you switch in on Salamence, such as Swampert, and then some additional checks, such as Scarf Jirachi or Scizor, which aren't reliable as I've constantly said. Instead of countering my points, you were countering my articulation; that doesn't do your point of view any justice.
You don't have to dedicate one to take it out, then another or two to take it out, and they aren't all just for Salamence like you're making it sound like. Scarf Jirachi checks a myraid of threats, as does Scizor. Both do a fair share of great revenge killing. The way it sounded to me was that you were dedicating 2 or 3 Pokemon to solely beating Salamence, all steel types, which I thought was absurd. So misconception there. But yeah, those 2-3 checks to Salamence are also checking other Pokemon or helping you accomplish your strategy in some way. They don't just sit there and wait for Salamence.
At the above poster, Rayquaza has at least 30 more attack points than Salamence, meaning that it's not "about the same" like 2 or 3 points in Dnite and Mences case, it's drastically different. That's all I can say though, I was not here when Ray was banned or tested. I can say though, Salamence outclasses Dragonite outside of mixed sets which is why it is used more, plus more people see Salamence at #2 and go OH MAN I WANT THAT DRAGONITE SUCKS so that's probably a reason.
Obviously their movepools have some key differences (Swords Dance, ES, etc) and their stats and abilities differ them, but they are all fairly similar so its interesting as to exactly what it is that makes Ray Uber
