Azure Demon
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What do you mean walls no one uses i've battled like 10 team with regis in the last month alone and 3 of them were all on 1 team dude however I never have played a chancey for some reason
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What do you mean walls no one uses i've battled like 10 team with regis in the last month alone and 3 of them were all on 1 team dude however I never have played a chancey for some reason
I think that you're forgetting that Cresselia doesn't perform well in OU stall teams, and also forgetting why. The main objective in stall is to set up hazards and wear the enemy team down by forcing switches. Think about it, Cresselia doesn't accomplish anything in regards to that objective. :/
Just having good defenses isn't enough to make stall work.
Sorry. I just exaggerated it a bit. Some people use them, but Chansey is one of the most used special walls in UU, (there's a statistcs thread if you want to see for yourself), and even Chansey's usage was at its lowest point yet (Chansey's on 5.6%, whilst Regice, Grumpig and Hypno are all under 1%). Registeel is doing VERY well though.
Azure Demon
Guest
Now while it can't set up Entry hazards on it's own swampert with cress is hell and if you'd prefer since we are changing teirs to UU imagine cloyster and cress together as cress can force switches in many ways through fear of status it does not have to manually whirlwind or roar to be a good stall pokemon. Not to mention it is very good when it comes to toxic stalling pokes And no you don't have to wear down and tear pokes down there a also pp stalls which does in a since tear the opponent down by taking away moves by being walled over an extended period of time and cress can do just that is what I'm saying Lol that's another way it forces switches to is through it's stalling ability as no one is going to waste all the pp of their strongest move on one poke
also for the people who say cress is bulky but can't do any harm or can't do much and it's only good as a support poke. What about the cm variant or the bolt beam cress with sub and moonlight That just seems crazy to me
OU = "overused", which is just a short way of saying "These are pokemon that are used a lot."
Notice, that I did not say "These are good pokemon", or "These are powerful battling pokemon", or even "These are pokemon that you should use if you want to win".
It simply expresses that many people use these pokemon in competitive battles. Maybe the people using these pokemon are stupid, or inept, or whatever. Or maybe they are geniuses. It doesn't matter what they are, or why they are using certain pokemon. When we label a group of pokemon as "OU", we are simply expressing that those pokemon are currently the most widely used pokemon in standard ladder play.
UU = "underused", which is just a way of saying "These are pokemon that don't get used very often on the standard ladder".
Notice that I did not say "These are crappy pokemon", or "These pokemon can't win in OU", or "These pokemon are roughly at the same power level as Steelix, Swellow, and Hitmontop".
It simply expresses that these pokemon aren't seen very often on the standard ladder FOR WHATEVER REASON. Maybe there are other pokemon that often put these pokemon at a disadvantage in standard play. Maybe these pokemon are "outclassed" by better options in standard play. Maybe most people in the community just really hate the pokemon's game sprite and refuse to put it on their teams. Who knows? The fact is -- it doesn't matter WHY they aren't used often in standard play. By tagging a pokemon as "UU", we are simply indicating the cold, hard FACT that the pokemon statistically does not appear as often as some other pokemon.
So, the basic determination that a pokemon is "OU" or "UU", is a simple matter of measuring USAGE. That's why the tiers end in the letter "U", which stands for "used", as in "usage". You can question the math formula for measuring usage, and you can question the numeric boundaries that have been set for "Used a lot" (aka "OU") and "Not used as much" (aka "UU"). But, do not confuse that to be a discussion of "How powerful should a pokemon be, in order to classify it as OU or UU."
Measuring usage has nothing to do with measuring usefulness.
After we have mathematically grouped pokemon according to how much they are used -- then we look and see if any of the pokemon in a given group, are too strong to be played with the other pokemon in that usage group. That process is what we call "suspect testing". "Suspect" is the short term for:
In the case of Cresselia and Porygon-Z, the objective measurement of their usage on the Standard ladder determined that they are NOT used very often in standard play. This fact cannot be argued. Even if you dislike the formula, you cannot argue that these two pokemon, according to our mathematical definition, are not seen very often on the Standard ladder. Therefore, they ARE "not used very much" right now. They are "UU".
Now we are left to determine if they are too powerful to be played with other UU pokemon. At Smogon, we prefer to act on information gleaned from actual battling experience -- not on theoretical musings by so-called "pokemon experts". You are welcome to disagree with us, but we firmly stand behind our assertion that real pokemon battling is far superior to sitting back and imagining how you think a battle will play out in your head. Theories are fine for discussion, but any decent theory should be able to be proven through practical application. So, when it comes to testing pokemon that have been mathematically recategorized, we feel that some level of actual battling should take place.
That's what we are doing with Cresselia and Porygon-Z. We are going to play with them in the tier that they have been factually proven to be part of (UU). If, after playing them, there is a consensus of people that battle frequently and are successful in that tier, that Cresselia or Porygon-Z have a detrimental effect on the competitive balance of the tier -- then we may ban them from play within the tier.
I don't know why so many people seem to have a hard time with these concepts. But every time I see someone post "I can't believe Smogon has decided to make Cresselia UU!", it makes me cringe. Statements like this imply that we are somehow forcing a pokemon to be used or not used in standard play. When, in fact, all we are doing is measuring usage. Nothing more.
Notice, that I did not say "These are good pokemon", or "These are powerful battling pokemon", or even "These are pokemon that you should use if you want to win".
It simply expresses that many people use these pokemon in competitive battles. Maybe the people using these pokemon are stupid, or inept, or whatever. Or maybe they are geniuses. It doesn't matter what they are, or why they are using certain pokemon. When we label a group of pokemon as "OU", we are simply expressing that those pokemon are currently the most widely used pokemon in standard ladder play.
UU = "underused", which is just a way of saying "These are pokemon that don't get used very often on the standard ladder".
Notice that I did not say "These are crappy pokemon", or "These pokemon can't win in OU", or "These pokemon are roughly at the same power level as Steelix, Swellow, and Hitmontop".
It simply expresses that these pokemon aren't seen very often on the standard ladder FOR WHATEVER REASON. Maybe there are other pokemon that often put these pokemon at a disadvantage in standard play. Maybe these pokemon are "outclassed" by better options in standard play. Maybe most people in the community just really hate the pokemon's game sprite and refuse to put it on their teams. Who knows? The fact is -- it doesn't matter WHY they aren't used often in standard play. By tagging a pokemon as "UU", we are simply indicating the cold, hard FACT that the pokemon statistically does not appear as often as some other pokemon.
So, the basic determination that a pokemon is "OU" or "UU", is a simple matter of measuring USAGE. That's why the tiers end in the letter "U", which stands for "used", as in "usage". You can question the math formula for measuring usage, and you can question the numeric boundaries that have been set for "Used a lot" (aka "OU") and "Not used as much" (aka "UU"). But, do not confuse that to be a discussion of "How powerful should a pokemon be, in order to classify it as OU or UU."
Measuring usage has nothing to do with measuring usefulness.
After we have mathematically grouped pokemon according to how much they are used -- then we look and see if any of the pokemon in a given group, are too strong to be played with the other pokemon in that usage group. That process is what we call "suspect testing". "Suspect" is the short term for:
We then go through a series of objective and subjective processes to try and answer the question (confirm or deny our suspicion). We call this "Testing the suspect", or "Suspect testing".
In the case of Cresselia and Porygon-Z, the objective measurement of their usage on the Standard ladder determined that they are NOT used very often in standard play. This fact cannot be argued. Even if you dislike the formula, you cannot argue that these two pokemon, according to our mathematical definition, are not seen very often on the Standard ladder. Therefore, they ARE "not used very much" right now. They are "UU".
Now we are left to determine if they are too powerful to be played with other UU pokemon. At Smogon, we prefer to act on information gleaned from actual battling experience -- not on theoretical musings by so-called "pokemon experts". You are welcome to disagree with us, but we firmly stand behind our assertion that real pokemon battling is far superior to sitting back and imagining how you think a battle will play out in your head. Theories are fine for discussion, but any decent theory should be able to be proven through practical application. So, when it comes to testing pokemon that have been mathematically recategorized, we feel that some level of actual battling should take place.
That's what we are doing with Cresselia and Porygon-Z. We are going to play with them in the tier that they have been factually proven to be part of (UU). If, after playing them, there is a consensus of people that battle frequently and are successful in that tier, that Cresselia or Porygon-Z have a detrimental effect on the competitive balance of the tier -- then we may ban them from play within the tier.
I don't know why so many people seem to have a hard time with these concepts. But every time I see someone post "I can't believe Smogon has decided to make Cresselia UU!", it makes me cringe. Statements like this imply that we are somehow forcing a pokemon to be used or not used in standard play. When, in fact, all we are doing is measuring usage. Nothing more.
I think that it has to do with the general fallacy that the most prominent event A preceding another event B must be the cause of event B. Any careful look at history shows that this is not the case. The 1929 stock market crash did not cause the Great Depression; rather, it was itself a symptom of the numerous underlying economic problems that did cause the Great Depression. Similarly, the tiering of a Pokémon is not a cause, but a symptom of usage trends. People just don't want Porygon-Z or Cresselia in their OU teams. This is the doing not of some shady leadership committee but of us, the people going onto Shoddy Battle, building our teams, and battling with them.
Quoted for justice.
Porygon2, despite being NU, is most USEFUL within OU, where a large amount of frequently used pokemon have abilities which P2 can abuse with Trace. Nothing else has a hope of stopping Salamance, Heatran, and Gyarados with the same moveset, items, and EV's. [Although, Heatran and Salamance can win, dependant on conditions]
Hence why P2 gained the status it did. It was next to useless in UU... it resembled Cress, in a way, useful to wall stuff... not useful for actually doing anything. Trace couldn't fire back anything of note. However, it almost made the OU cutoff. Porygon2 was going to either go up to OU, or fall to NU. All based on useage. Obviously, a pokemon who's NU, but used a fair amount in OU, must be useful... it's just not used enough.
So hypothetically, from what i can gather, if Mewtwo did not get any usage it could become UU? There would be no discussion whatsoever, a straight drop and we'd all have to put up with an obviously broken mon for another cycle? Then there's this whole tedious, painstaking process of testing stages and writing paragraphs when it is so obviously broken at the time. Seems like a whole lot of time wasting and disruption of the UU metagame for nothing.
So when the hell are we getting Manaphy? It was voted OU, and it's not in OU? I'm finding myself quite confused.
No. Uber<-> OU is a different metric than OU<->UU.
Uber<->OU is determined by a banlist, making it against the rules to use pokemon that have been deemed too powerful to have a balanced standard metagame. The only way an Uber can move down to a lower tier is by rigorous testing during a Suspect period.
OU<->UU is determined by usage, making it against the rules to use pokemon that are too common in the standard metagame. This is to encourage diversity so players have a format they can play in where they don't have to see the same OU pokemon over and over again.
Consequently, Mewtwo can not get down to UU without first passing a Suspect test to become OU, and then proving itself so unpopular in OU that less than 3.5% of battles feature it.
A better example is the once-Uber-now-OU Latias. If, for whatever reason, Latias became severely unpopular (which is unlikely, given that the first and sixth most popular pokemon in OU counter it handily and it's still in the top 10), it would fall into UU. Once there, if it was too powerful compared to the rest of the format, it would be Suspect tested and (possibly) moved into BL.
Mewtwo is in Ubers, a banlist for OU, and not a usage-based tier like OU or UU (which is why it has a different kind of name). Ubers is not affected at all by usage due to that--no matter how little usage it gets, it will still be in Ubers.
It was decided to do one more round of testing after that, to see if Garchomp being banned had any affects on Manaphy's and Latias's ability to perform or not. Thus, Manaphy was taken off the OU ladder and put back onto Suspect with Latias for this round of testig. The thread for this is still stickied right here:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64497
The test hasn't gotten to the voting stage yet, which is why Manaphy still is where it is.
I expect Venusaur to plunge from #1 with these recent developments now that it seems to have a surefire counter in Cresselia. Uxie keeps Stealth Rock + U-turn and 10 extra speed, but it'll be rare to see it as anything other than a lead now. It's nice to see both Porygons in UU, and honestly, P-Z isn't wholly unstoppable between Chansey and Spiritomb in addition to most sweepers at or over its speed tier, but I don't think either will stray very long in UU.
The hypothetical "what if [Pokémon] went to UU" is heavily, heavily flawed. It's straight-up ignoring the fact that people like to win, and they like to abuse the most powerful and useful Pokémon to do so. And this is supposed to be the argument against usage-based tiers? "Hi, let's ignore the one fact that makes usage-based tiers make sense, and call it flawed." Mewtwo is obviously broken even in OU, so why would it ever go to UU? When I want to read this kind of logic, I can just go to Trou.
Now this doesn't mean that usage is a perfect indicator of power, because that's hardly true at all. However, it is a fallacy to go to the other extreme and to ignore usage as an indicator of power completely. The fact is, Cresselia has been quite the opposite of broken in OU. So why assume that it would be broken in UU?
Now this doesn't mean that usage is a perfect indicator of power, because that's hardly true at all. However, it is a fallacy to go to the other extreme and to ignore usage as an indicator of power completely. The fact is, Cresselia has been quite the opposite of broken in OU. So why assume that it would be broken in UU?
About the OU thing: so, let's say:
If something like Infernape goes down to UU(that will never happen... it's just a hypothesis), it will be tested or it will go straight to BL? Becuase we know it's going to be too much for UU...
But if it goes straight to BL, isn't that going to contradict the OU purpose(a pokemon is OU for usage, not power)? So we aren't even going to test Infernape in UU?
PS: Like i said, it's just a hypothesis. Infernape isn't going to UU anytime soon. It's just to show a scenario where a obviously "too good for UU" poke goes down to UU, but happens to get booted to BL without even testing.
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Ok: Cresselia and Porygon Z going to UU doesn't change OU at all. In fact, nothing changes OU unless a Uber poke is voted OU like Latias was. Pokes going down to UU or up to OU only changes UU itself, not OU. Though this is somewhat obvious, i know.
If something like Infernape goes down to UU(that will never happen... it's just a hypothesis), it will be tested or it will go straight to BL? Becuase we know it's going to be too much for UU...
But if it goes straight to BL, isn't that going to contradict the OU purpose(a pokemon is OU for usage, not power)? So we aren't even going to test Infernape in UU?
PS: Like i said, it's just a hypothesis. Infernape isn't going to UU anytime soon. It's just to show a scenario where a obviously "too good for UU" poke goes down to UU, but happens to get booted to BL without even testing.
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Ok: Cresselia and Porygon Z going to UU doesn't change OU at all. In fact, nothing changes OU unless a Uber poke is voted OU like Latias was. Pokes going down to UU or up to OU only changes UU itself, not OU. Though this is somewhat obvious, i know.
The one reason that Cresselia isn't the premier wall of OU is sandstorm. With its recovery move only giving a paltry 25% in sandstorm, it can hardly wall for very long. However, in UU, where no fully evolved mons have sandstream, Cresselia gains a full 50%. The reliable recovery move paired with incredible defensive stats and a decent support movepool means that UU is going to have ridiculous amounts of trouble with it. Not only that, but UU seriously lacks any offensive types that can hit Cressy for Stab SE. One of the few would-be counters, Honchkrow was just removed. Absol remains a great counter, but with reflect, it is walled quite easily. Basically all I'm seeing is Mismagius as a surefire counter, assuming you don't switch into a T-Wave. Feel free to extrapolate if I forgot any counters, but off the top of my head this is all I have.
I think rainy weather gives 25% recovery as well; how would the prevalence of Rain Dance teams affect its walling abilities?
As I understand it, a Pokémon has to be voted OU/Uber or UU/BL by two simple majorities in a row or one supermajority (2/3) in order for that placement to definitively occur. Manaphy and Latias were originally Uber and were both voted OU in Stage 3-2 (3-1 doesn't count because the suspects were in isolation). Stage 3-3, which ends Friday or Saturday I think, will have another vote, and if Manaphy and/or Latias is voted OU again, they will no longer be suspects. However, if one or the other (or both!) is voted Uber this time around by a simple majority, there will be a Stage 3-4 and another round of voting until the results are conclusive. Hopefully that made sense. Or just read the PR thread Naxte linked, I'm sure it explains everything much better than I could.
Except it has to deal with Snover, and the incredibly common rain teams.
Theorymon is theorymon, until it actually gets tested in the UU environment. It's basically in the same boat as Uxie in that it has really good defenses and support movepool but has no way to do any damage back.
Is STAB so important? Porygon-Z, Houndoom, Alakazam, and definitely Spiritomb will give it enough trouble.
Subplot Missy beats it hands down. And I've already seen a big increase in Missy usage in the last two days.
Azure Demon
Guest
I'm sorry but this post is absolute non sence one nasty plosts don't matter if cress gets up a light screen or t-waves your houndoom in and then proceeds to cm up on you. And many people think hazers will work but honesty hazers aren't as commelon as people think in uu I've seen more in ou than in uu. And mismagius is also raped by say a bolt beam combo or just cress non stop attacking instead of going for status missy. I may have considered a counter if it had a reliable recovery move to get back the health it loses from the subs cress will break down. unless it's a new uu player and doesn't know never to try and status attack missy on a first turn. And porygon-z and zam weren't doing anything to it when they were all OU pokes if anything they increased it's popularity
Would like to point out that this is false; Honchkrow has NOTHING on Cresselia. It can set up a Reflect in its face, Moonlight as it Brave Birds, cripple it with Toxic/T-wave/Burn, wear it down with Ice Beam. It can afford to invest into Speed to outpace Adamant Honchkrow with its ridiculous defenses, which lets it beat out Brave Birds even without Reflect, and Jolly Honchkrow is too weak to dent it significantly.
While Cresselia seems beyond ridiculous, I think it's a bit premature. Is Cresselia good? Yeah, it's good. It's REALLY good. But I think we should at least give the metagame a bit of time to see what adjustments are made, then decide if it's really THAT good. I've had great success with a special bulky SD+Taunt Drapion so far, which is really nice in general.
Azure Demon
Guest
mixed homchcrow with psycho shift rapes cress I think I'm
the only one here who runs that though
About tiering - is there any sort of 'emergency' suspect process? I agree that Pokemon that drop from OU should go straight to UU, but if it becomes apparent very quickly that a newly UU Poke is broken, is there any way to have them swiftly removed to BL, rather than suffering with them overdominating the UU metagame while the slow process of normal suspect testing takes place?
and so OU falls further and further into monotony.
q___q
q___q
^That's kind of obvious. Over time, people discover the most effective sets and pokemon. What's surprising about OU shrinking over time? It will almost certainly continue to shrink without drastic change to the shape of the rules (like 5th gen release or something).
@Cantab-- the administrators of UU have always reserved the right to "emergency remove" anything. This was exercised for instance, when Rotom-A was released with Platinum, and the entire UU metagame immediately realized "Rotom-A in UU is retarded!" :P
@Cantab-- the administrators of UU have always reserved the right to "emergency remove" anything. This was exercised for instance, when Rotom-A was released with Platinum, and the entire UU metagame immediately realized "Rotom-A in UU is retarded!" :P
Cress and P-Z...in UU?! o_o I'm just glad Hera didn't get bumped down to UU, he would dominate like crazy.
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