Yeah, you know that's what I said. Until Porygon-Z froze or para'd my Steelix or Milotic and then proceeded to sweep me. And it's not like porygon-z is lol frail like Alakazam, it can actually survive CB Aqua Jet or Arcanines Extremespeed and leave you with nothing to defend against it. It hits too hard and that Tri-Attack hax factor makes me compare it to Garchomps sand veil set, it happens too often to be considered just a one match in 20 thing.
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np: UU - Can't Touch This
- Thread starter reachzero
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Yeah, you know that's what I said. Until Porygon-Z froze or para'd my Steelix or Milotic and then proceeded to sweep me. And it's not like porygon-z is lol frail like Alakazam, it can actually survive CB Aqua Jet or Arcanines Extremespeed and leave you with nothing to defend against it. It hits too hard and that Tri-Attack hax factor makes me compare it to Garchomps sand veil set, it happens too often to be considered just a one match in 20 thing.
Thing is Tangela was often just a solitary sweeper and never held a heat rock itself. A better comparison is Latias, who was found to be manageable in OU without the item that made it broken.
Lol I was just swept by PZ just as I read this. Yeah I admit it. P-Z is strong... mad strong probably one of the best in the UU metagame (second to Cress imo) but he doesn't seem that broken. Sure he's bulky, but he lacks speed and can be otuspeed by some key pokes and pretty easily revenge killed. (Outsped, Priority etc)
Don't bring up Little Cup. Little Cup's metagame is such that even 5 turns of sun would be too much, due to the entire tier having the approximate defensive capability of a paper bag in a hurricane. There are only a couple of defensively-oriented Pokemon in the tier (Gilgar, Munchlax) and Tangela could put them out of commission pretty easily. That's why stall is so unviable in the tier. UU is not like that. It has quite a few potent defenders, which is why the amount of turns they'll have to endure a continuous assault is relevant. It doesn't help if a rain team can make two switches and slam your physical/special walls and STILL have enough rain left to clean them up.
Tch, you guys keep overestimating Froslass...maybe it's because I actually consider it in my teambuilding, but I have never had a problem with it.
As for Z...it can't really come in on much and there are a few checks for it, plus anything faster if it's not running scarf. Scarf is probably the single most dangerous set.
Cress has to go. It walls such a ridiculous amount of things it's pathetic, no moar pseudo-legendaries down here please.
I guess while I'm posting, I'll talk about rain:
Rain is such that if you misplay for a single turn or don't prepare well, you will lose. There is no all purpose answer to the style of play, merely playing around it and realizing that it's all-out offense that often considers sweepers expendable and use that. That said, I don't think Damp Rock should be banned, at all. Other than Electrode at the beginning, Rain is very difficult to set up for a second time by someone carrying Damp Rock. If it's a sweeper, then it loses out on the power of the LO and if it's defensive, it loses the staying power Leftovers provides, meaning it can only really check things once.
It's a threatening style of play, but it is perfectly beatable by a team that isn't required to over-specialize for it.
I use a Taunt/Subpunch Toxicroak with HP investment that can set up and kill most anything on a rain team bar the Uxies that have become omnipresent, but Uxie is setup for my Absol once it's Taunted and it can't switch out of Toxicroak without losing something, so I bring in Absol and kill whatever comes in (Kabutops/Omastar with Superpower, everything else falls to a LO Night Slash).
Don't compare it to Sun, though, as the benefits are drastically different. Chlorophyll isn't found on any Fire pokemon, so they can't take advantage of both speed and double STAB like RD sweepers can, but they do get their 1 turn Solarbeam.
As for Z...it can't really come in on much and there are a few checks for it, plus anything faster if it's not running scarf. Scarf is probably the single most dangerous set.
Cress has to go. It walls such a ridiculous amount of things it's pathetic, no moar pseudo-legendaries down here please.
I guess while I'm posting, I'll talk about rain:
Rain is such that if you misplay for a single turn or don't prepare well, you will lose. There is no all purpose answer to the style of play, merely playing around it and realizing that it's all-out offense that often considers sweepers expendable and use that. That said, I don't think Damp Rock should be banned, at all. Other than Electrode at the beginning, Rain is very difficult to set up for a second time by someone carrying Damp Rock. If it's a sweeper, then it loses out on the power of the LO and if it's defensive, it loses the staying power Leftovers provides, meaning it can only really check things once.
It's a threatening style of play, but it is perfectly beatable by a team that isn't required to over-specialize for it.
I use a Taunt/Subpunch Toxicroak with HP investment that can set up and kill most anything on a rain team bar the Uxies that have become omnipresent, but Uxie is setup for my Absol once it's Taunted and it can't switch out of Toxicroak without losing something, so I bring in Absol and kill whatever comes in (Kabutops/Omastar with Superpower, everything else falls to a LO Night Slash).
Don't compare it to Sun, though, as the benefits are drastically different. Chlorophyll isn't found on any Fire pokemon, so they can't take advantage of both speed and double STAB like RD sweepers can, but they do get their 1 turn Solarbeam.
As much as I've loved P-Z's work for my team i have to admit, the scarf set is extremely dangerous, probably moreso than moltres and swellow. The anti-lead set has the potential to 6-0 teams straight off the bat, the element of surpise being deadly.
Cresselia has to go.
Damp rock is the catalyst that makes rain teams arguably the single most dangerous playstyle in UU. You simply cannot allow a team of 4 sweepers which are broken under rain to have 8 turns of free devastation. Damp rock should be banned a la soul dew.
Cresselia has to go.
Damp rock is the catalyst that makes rain teams arguably the single most dangerous playstyle in UU. You simply cannot allow a team of 4 sweepers which are broken under rain to have 8 turns of free devastation. Damp rock should be banned a la soul dew.
Inappropriate comparison. In LC sun, there was no Gore or Ludi or any number of supporting sweepers besides the main one. Tangela was all that was needed, and all that was really used. If we banned Kabutops, we would end up with slightly reduced Rain teams that are still just as centralizing and very powerful.
That should not at all stop nor check PZ...He defintely doesnt lack speed...faster than a majority of UU and powerful enough to breakthrough walls (not named-chansey)...and it is very easy to support and have synergy with...when you say priority moves i just switch out to something else that can take those priority moves and come back with PZ later...and all those pokes that outspeed him are pretty easy to stop(raikou being the only one who is really threatening)
What the hell can Z easily switch into unless something is encored or just died (alright, maybe Spiritomb)? Even then, pretty much everything in the meta can at least threaten him if he tries to get a NP off. If it's on a weakened wall, they can T-wave/burn/encore depending, all of which will put a damper on his sweep. He can't switch into any sweeper that outspeeds him nor into any mildly strong attack of something that doesn't.
He's just a slightly more powerful Mismagius without a viable support movepool or immunities (albeit slightly more bulk).
The scarf set is the only thing I worry about, and if he's voted BL, it should be for that. It negates his biggest weakness, speed, and still allows him to remain powerful with Adaptability.
Edit: Although I can't resist throwing Specs Hyper Beams around just for the sheer fun of it.
@ Damp rock vs. Kabutops discussion
As it seems to me, that for a while, people have been arguing whether they should ban Kabutops or Damp rock. As I´ve had an impression of bans being dealt by first testing these "suspected" BLs/Ubers etc. in a special suspect server, I would like to recommend the following thing:
It could be tested, how much removal of either affects the metagame. Instead of normal suspect testing two different special servers could ban Kabutops and Damp rock, respectively.
This way the difference between banning of the two things could be compared, provided least some people would use both servers.
As in my opnion I am not experienced enough, I shall not throw around my opnions of banning things.
As it seems to me, that for a while, people have been arguing whether they should ban Kabutops or Damp rock. As I´ve had an impression of bans being dealt by first testing these "suspected" BLs/Ubers etc. in a special suspect server, I would like to recommend the following thing:
It could be tested, how much removal of either affects the metagame. Instead of normal suspect testing two different special servers could ban Kabutops and Damp rock, respectively.
This way the difference between banning of the two things could be compared, provided least some people would use both servers.
As in my opnion I am not experienced enough, I shall not throw around my opnions of banning things.
Z can switch into weak neutral attacks or a predicted recover move or just revenge kill...I would say using the Nasty plot set needs a bit more strategy then just coming in and Nasty plotting off the bat...that's what seperates good PZ users from other ones....if I switch PZ in on a weakened wall and i dont know at least 75% of my oppenents team i am not going to set up off the bat, I am going to attack and kill it...and most of all the Nasty plot set is great against stall, but the choice sets are really where PZ truly shines because of the playing style in today's metgame...offensive teams...
Choiced P-Z sets are true beast Specs can run through stall and scarf can be a beast with spikes support that is so easily provided by Lass
If we do ban Damp Rock, then what happens to NU? I've never played NU, nor do I know if Rain teams are viable there at all, but I was thinking about this. Does Damp Rock essentially become a BL item, and thus banned in all tiers below it, like a Pokemon?
Or would Damp Rock be banned only in UU, and allowed in all tiers above and below it? That seems messy to me.
Or would Damp Rock be banned only in UU, and allowed in all tiers above and below it? That seems messy to me.
Items don't work quite the same way as Pokemon. Items don't have tiers. If a Pokemon is banned from its tier, it is already banned from all lower tiers because of the tiering system. Items don't work like that, because they are always available in all tiers. Soul Dew is kinda unique, because it only works on a single (OU) Pokemon, and so it was always a non-issue in the lower tiers. Since it's still legal in higher tiers, we can assume that Rock will be OU (and ubers, haha) legal. Since it's not a problem in NU, I'm pretty sure it'll kick back there all right.
So yeah, what above poster said, only more wordy.
The thing is, if we do end up banning Damp Rock, Rain Teams will of course become less popular, and there's a good chance some of the rain sweepers/supporters that don't have much use outside of rain teams will drop into NU; some are in NU. Rain may end up being broken in NU as well.
However, I don't really know how things work in NU. Do they really ban things, or do they just rely on broken things being in higher tiers?
However, I don't really know how things work in NU. Do they really ban things, or do they just rely on broken things being in higher tiers?
NU doesn't have a large enough player base or an organized forum to do suspect tests, so they rely on broken things being in higher tiers.
We're talking about the UU metagame, not the NU.
@ Thund:
I've never understood why Jumpluff is NU, it is one of the most ANNOYING Pokemon in the metagame, and does a really damn good job of: SubSeeding, Encore/U-turning, Screening, etc.
Anyway after some minor testing of Rain Dance I've really found it to not live up to the hype.
Yes I won every match minus a few to do X reasons, but to be honest the people I was against did NOTHING to prepare for it. Like, use Milotic with Toxic.
And, as I hypothesized, Kabutops was DEFINITELY the best part, even possibly the "broken" aspect of rain. That physical bulk + priority actually fucks every Rain Dance counter up. I use Muscle Band over Life Orb so that I don't KO myself. That, I've found, has been the only way Kabutops has legitimately failed to end a match mid-late game, because of Life Orb recoil.
I've never understood why Jumpluff is NU, it is one of the most ANNOYING Pokemon in the metagame, and does a really damn good job of: SubSeeding, Encore/U-turning, Screening, etc.
Anyway after some minor testing of Rain Dance I've really found it to not live up to the hype.
Yes I won every match minus a few to do X reasons, but to be honest the people I was against did NOTHING to prepare for it. Like, use Milotic with Toxic.
And, as I hypothesized, Kabutops was DEFINITELY the best part, even possibly the "broken" aspect of rain. That physical bulk + priority actually fucks every Rain Dance counter up. I use Muscle Band over Life Orb so that I don't KO myself. That, I've found, has been the only way Kabutops has legitimately failed to end a match mid-late game, because of Life Orb recoil.
I find that annoying opponents and stalling out matches is a huge waste of time and is a rather 'unethical' style of play. I'm not sure if anyone else feels this way. However I simply don't like the concept of setting up a very simple strategy then repeating the same move to try and force the opponent to get upset and perhaps leave. Why would I want to do that while also taking a long time for said strategy to take effect?
Because it helps you win games. Unethical means nothing.
You want unethical, pass some defense boosts (and maybe some speed) to SubCM Cresselia with Solrock or Gorebyss. If they lack a Poke with Encore, you win. Plain and simple. And pair that with something like, say, PerishTrapping Missy (it doesn't mind some defense boosts either) and proceed to get a free kill. Or pass a Defense boost to SubSeed Sceptile and see how people like trying to break its subs now :) Defense boosts are really very underrated imo.
So you basically don't like playing stall teams. Stall is the best UU play style (at least until PZ came)
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