np: Stage 3-4 - Wait why is this so familiar didn't I just go through this what did I

[capefeather]

I've personally found that all Manaphy really needs from rain is the power boost and the insurance against status. I rarely used Rest with the Manaphy that I'd been using for that purpose, so I ditched it for the three-move coverage that really makes it shine. 3x boosted Surf + two 2x boosted coverage attacks = very scary.

 

[Universal Berry]

I agree with capefeather. Manaphy will be a lot less powerful without infinite rain support from Kyogre and will be walled by Blissey. I think it could enter OU without creating too much of a change.

For the latias question...

Latias is OU since a long time and perform really well but not well enough to be banned. I think it should stay OU.

 

[iKitsune]

To my surprise, it works phenomenally and trims the list of Pokemon who could effectively counter it full-stop to nothing.

First of all as already mentioned in this thread this is completely untrue. In fact there are quite a lot of pokemon that counter it. And i'd also like to say before i mention what they are that these pokemon are all viable in OU. First of all the most obvious one and easily Manaphy's best counter Abomasnow. Abomasnow uses Manaphy to set up. Secondly Raikou who has scene a rise in usage also makes a good counter other pokemon include Roserade, CM Wish Jirachi and Latias with Thunderbolt. The latter two are already mainstays on a lot of OU teams. Secondly this mentality that everything needs to be checked is wrong. A lot of pokemon have no counters for all their sets for instance Lucario, Latias, Salamence, Tyranitar, Gyarados. Yet they can all be revenge killed easily... sometimes. The same is true for Manaphy who is fairly easily revenge killed.

Being immune to status and having its STAB boosted, Manaphy can easily kill anything that tries to stop it or stock up on Tail Glows and prepare for a sweep. Either way, your best bet is to try and Trick it as it sets up, phaze it, or kill it on the revenge. Either way, once its rain support is up and running, the odds are against you.

I disagree again, Manaphy isnt nearly as powerful if it doesnt back its sp.atk as oppose to its bulk and with just one move that is resisted by a lot of pokemon it isnt sweeping as easily as you make out. The way this is written almost assumes Manaphy is impervious to the assaults it inevitably takes, Manaphy in my experience just doesnt get free set ups, let alone two turns to do so. Granted if you do manage to set up Manaphy with 1-2 TG/CM and Rain Dance you will likely sweep but exactly the same can be said for all the DDers and Jirachi. My conclusion is that your opponents were bad and therefore did not give you an accurate depiction of manaphys power in normal circumstances, if you haven't made a team to handle Rain Rest Manaphy you are bad.

The one thing i agree with is that it is easy to Phaze or Trick or Revenge, if you dont do these things expect to be swept.

Looking at the thread at present it looks like Manaphy may well be OU.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

I think the biggest sellers of Manaphy that set it apart from others with its 600 BST stat spread like Jirachi and Celebi are its typing and Tail Glow. Its ability is all but gimmicky in a metagame rifled with Sandstream and to a much lesser extent Snow Warning. I feel like its ability might play a larger role if it were Swift Swim, but since it's not there's no point speculating.

Let's face it. The best Manaphy sets use Tail Glow. The handiest part about its typing is neutrality to ground and dark and resistance to fire, things that plague Jirachi and Celebi. Those are the things that are being tested to see if they put it over the edge into Ubers.

I find that it may not be broken, but its counters are all, as mentioned before, easily dealt with by ScarfTar or relatively unseen in OU. This will cause a relatively huge upset in OU if it gets voted down. Maybe that's ok.

 

[Cyrrona]

I can understand the claim that Manaphy meets the Offensive Characteristic with the Tail Glow set (though I personally disagree), but "Crophy" does not even come close to breaking anything and people need to stop acting like it's some revolutionary sweeper. The set is essentially a variation on Crocune (something we've been accepting as OU for ages now) and ultimately offers players few concrete benefits over its fellow mono-attacker. While it's true that Manaphy is hitting harder than Suicune thanks to its higher base SAtk and the boost it's netting from Rain Dance, it comes up short in a number of areas as well. Hydration’s relationship with the weather is a double-edged sword: though it provides Manaphy with instant recovery in Rain, any opponent carrying Tyranitar or Abomasnow can switch in on the turn Manaphy tries to Rest and force it into inactivity for two full turns. (While a few players may argue that switching a Tyranitar into a Manaphy with a couple Calm Minds under its belt is a bold move, risking Crophy's life by not Resting when one is low on health is arguably bolder.) It's severely outclassed by Suicune on the defensive side, an area that's generally considered more important than extra Speed or even SAtk for a mono-attacker like this. Finally, it's lacking another element that makes Crocune so dangerous: Pressure. Without Pressure (and with low-PP moves on the set like Rain Dance), Crophy cannot PP stall anywhere near as successfully as Suicune, and will lose out to a number of pokemon as a result (ex: CM Latias). I'm not saying the Rain Rest set is bad by any means--I'm simply saying that it is, at best, on par with something we've agreed is decidedly OU. Bearing that in mind, I don't see how anybody can claim this is Manaphy’s “broken” set.

As far as recent ladder experiences, I've unfortunately been unable to connect to the Smogon server from my dorm lately, so my testing time has been restricted to games snagged at wifi hotspots here and there. School's stripped me of all my free time this past week and prevented me from playing more than two matches, but I'm hoping this weekend will give me an opportunity to return to the ladder, see how the suspect metagame has shifted and make up for lost time.

 

[Megan_Fox]

I agree with El blecko, i personally find crophy inferior to to crocune due to suicunes higher base defenses.

A little while ago i battled an opponent who used an interesting combination. He had batonpassed an agility to to a tail glow manaphy. After the Manaphy had recieved the agility it proceeded to Tail glowing next turn. Since my Manaphy counter was a specs Latias (like alot of people are doing), the Manaphy had swept my entire team since a +2 icebeam OHKO's Latias (91.4% - 107.9% a guarentee KO after SR) unless it has hp investment. I realized that agility passing to a Manaphy makes Normal tailglow Manaphy counters (Latias, Raikou, Jolteon, Salamence) unable to counter it because it is outsped. While Wacan Manaphy can beat the likes of Raikou and Jolteon its normally helpless to a Draco Meteor from Latias or Salamence.

 

[NightmareZ]

My goodness I was just trying to figure out the best way to get an agility to manaphy. So really unless someone suddenly realises what makes it uber it is ou.

 

[shrang]

I remember battling the guy (I've already forgotten who, but I see the name, I will definitely remember) who passed Agility and Rain Dance to Tail Glow Manaphy. While this makes Manaphy an absolute bitch, you can never, EVER say a Pokemon is Uber because he gets Baton Passed speed or anything other stat. If this were to be the case, we should start banning Marowak, Ursaring, Octillery, Medicham and any of those slow but extremely hard hitting Pokemon (Who are all much, much more deadly when passed Speed). The fact of the matter is that Baton Pass is probably one of the most unreliable strategies ever, it is stopped by way too many things. I remember when TheKillerNacho Baton Passed Belly Drum and a Salac boost to Magikarp in Ubers and proceeded to sweep his opponent's team. Does that make Magikarp broken?? I think you should all be able to answer that question.

 

[SJCrew]

RainRest + Tail Glow/Calm Mind has major moveslot issues.

This is where the misunderstanding comes into play. I'm not talking about giving Manaphy Rain Dance, I'm talking about supporting it with Rain Dance. It'd be pretty embarrassing to be countered by something like Quagsire or Poliwrath with Surf as your only move, wouldn't it?

Now, before we argue the legitimacy of supporting moves, let's review the offensive characteristic:

A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

My support Pokemon uses Rain Dance. I switch in Manaphy. "Counter" comes in as I Tail Glow. If it's Snorlax, I alternate between Rest and Tail Glow, then kill it. If it's an offensive Electric, I attack right away as it fails to OHKO. If it's Tyranitar or Blissey, I laugh.

This is very elementary strategy and I usually take out 3 Pokemon minimum before it dies. It's much harder to stop than Baton Pass, easier to access, and doesn't require you to go out of your way to make it work. All you need to do is use one move and Manaphy does the rest. There's no easy answer to this unless you want everyone to run Abomasnow on their teams, in which case I could just run HP Fire to kill that big ass Christmas tree and Manaphy can keep doing what it does best.

The way this is written almost assumes Manaphy is impervious to the assaults it inevitably takes,

I did calcs, and it seems to me that Specs Raikou is the only Pokemon that has a chance to OHKO it, regardless of the EVs it's running. But it's rare, impractical, and outclassed by Jolteon as a specs user, so I wouldn't bank on that putting a stop to Manaphy's fun any time soon. Besides, if it's anything else, I can just continue setting up or kill it right away. There's also the possibility of Wacan Berry, which is not something I would use nor advise for this set, but would make it so that even Electrics fail to stop it.

 

[Stylish Interval]

Couldn't I do the same thing with Kingdra and Dragon Dance?

Or any rain sweeper for that matter?

Expansion: What makes Manaphy so different from the current Rain Sweepers in the OU Metagame that you think it's Uber material?

 

[SJCrew]

Couldn't I do the same thing with Kingdra and Dragon Dance?

Or any rain sweeper for that matter?

Expansion: What makes Manaphy so different from the current Rain Sweepers in the OU Metagame that you think it's Uber material?

I'd make the same argument for other Rain sweepers if they weren't about 5x easier to counter.

In Manaphy's case, its combination of typing, stats, Tail Glow, and Hydradtion allow it to set up on and kill everything in the OU metagame with ease.

 

[shrang]

Just for the record, CB Snorlax easily 2HKOs Manaphy, so you're not going to keep getting Tail Glows in without getting killed (So you're forced to Rest). People can also easily predict the Rest and bring in Abomasnow, TTar, whatever. If Manaphy doesn't use Rain Dance, it is much more unreliable, because a whole lot of crap could stop you getting Manaphy into the rain. For example, Uxie can use Rain Dance, player switches in TTar as you U-Turn to Manaphy. No rain. Crobat sets up Rain on Bronzong or something like that, you U-Turn to Manaphy while he Explodes in your face. Stuff like Gliscor can Taunt slower Rain Dancers. Azelf can set up Rain, explode on something insignificant, and the player can bring in TTar while you switch in Manaphy. No rain. Too many scenarios where this strategy is completely ruined. The offensive characteristic stated that under common battle conditions, a Pokemon in Uber if it can sweep a significant portion of the opponent's team. Rain is NOT a common battle condition (At least not in OU where TTar is so prevalent), therefore you cannot say Manaphy is Uber if it sweeps under Rain (Otherwise we'd be banning Kingdra, Kabutops, Ludicolo, etc before we even contemplate banning Manaphy).

Even with two attacks, you are still going to be resisted by something (If you're carrying Ice Beam, Gyara would happily Dragon Dance in your face, HP Electric, Mence would do the same, Energy Ball, anything but Waters). Things like Kingdra would also happily switch in with the Rain active and go to town with Swift Swim and Dragon Dance and whatever.

RainRest is good, only in Ubers, because Rain is actually a common battle condition (Where Kyogre is so prevalent), but not in a potential standard metagame, because Drizzle is not there, and manually setting up Rain is just damn unreliable, and even so, there are better sweepers in the Rain than Manaphy.

 

[Stylish Interval]

I'd make the same argument for other Rain sweepers if they weren't about 5x easier to counter.

In Manaphy's case, its combination of typing, stats, Tail Glow, and Hydradtion allow it to set up on and kill everything in the OU metagame with ease.

I don't get it. You still didn't explain to me why Manaphy is any harder to stop than Kingdra is.

Kingdra has STAB on Water and Dragon (good types), it has Dragon Dance, Swift Swim is a superior offensive ability in comparison to Hydration, and it can kill the same, if not more things, than Manaphy can after it sets up.

Why is it that the Manaphy you are describing is so superior to this Kingdra?

 

[ARandomDude]

Expansion: What makes Manaphy so different from the current Rain Sweepers in the OU Metagame that you think it's Uber material?

I think this has been alluded to before, how people have had much better success when Manaphy was the only thing on their team using Rain (I.E. not using a Rain Team).
Look at what characterizes the usual rain dance sweeper:
Swift Swim, Waterfall/Surf, Secondary STAB, Swords Dance/Dragon Dance are big. They are meant to wreck as much stuff as possible until your Azelf/Bronzong/Crobat/whoever comes in to set it up again, and they use their speed to ensure that they will outspeed you so you can't kill them. They hate Thunder Wave, and Toxic Spikes to a lesser degree.
Sound like Manaphy? No. So he fits the "so different" part of you question.

Now for the Uber question:
I myself do not think he is Uber material, but I will put myself in someone's shoes who does:
1. Manaphy can sweep in multiple ways with just his Rain sets. Two ways to boost: Calm Mind for stallish people, Tail Glow for faster ones. He can opt to use Rest for semi-reliable 100% recovery, or run other coverage moves. His bulk allows him to plant his butt down instead of trying to take out as much as possible. Manaphy's special variants are not walled by Blissey, as opposed to, say, Ludicolo, Kingdra, etc...
And so on.

 

[Stylish Interval]

I think this has been alluded to before, how people have had much better success when Manaphy was the only thing on their team using Rain (I.E. not using a Rain Team).

He specifically stated he was using Manaphy with a supporting Rain Dancer, which is why I questioned why it was different and harder to take down than Kingdra. You can't compare a Kingdra that doesn't set up rain for itself and another rain sweeper that does.

 

[SJCrew]

Just for the record, CB Snorlax easily 2HKOs Manaphy, so you're not going to keep getting Tail Glows in without getting killed (So you're forced to Rest).

CB Lax has absolutely no chance to 2HKO Manaphy if it's running full HP and 88 def without a boosting nature, while I 2HKO with a Tail Glow boosted Surf.

Kingdra has STAB on Water and Dragon (good types), it has Dragon Dance, Swift Swim is a superior offensive ability in comparison to Hydration, and it can kill the same, if not more things, than Manaphy can after it sets up.

Kingdra has more hard counters than Manaphy, which include Empoleon, Suicune, and Milotic. Actually, bulky waters in general have a tendency to give him hell and prevent him from sweeping, as they usually have a lot of sp. def, decent physical defense, Haze, and Water absorb. He can't run a moveset that accommodates them all.

there are better sweepers in the Rain than Manaphy.

Without the stats, the movepool, or Tail Glow to get past common OU walls and threats like TTar, Blissey, Vaporeon, and Suicune. There isn't a single rain sweeper that can take them all besides Manaphy.

For example, Uxie can use Rain Dance, player switches in TTar as you U-Turn to Manaphy. No rain. Crobat sets up Rain on Bronzong or something like that, you U-Turn to Manaphy while he Explodes in your face. Stuff like Gliscor can Taunt slower Rain Dancers. Azelf can set up Rain, explode on something insignificant, and the player can bring in TTar while you switch in Manaphy

Ttar won't come in on your rain supporter if your supporter poses more of a threat to Ttar than vice versa. Let's say I use Gliscor to run Rain Dance. TTar won't come in on it because it can't do anything to Gliscor. The best answer to Gliscor is a bulky water type like Swampert or Suicune, both of whom Manaphy can handle with ease. I'm going to have the set up initiative no matter what my opponent does and get a free kill on any attempt they make to stop it.

 

[Stylish Interval]

Kingdra has more hard counters than Manaphy, which include Empoleon, Suicune, and Milotic. Actually, bulky waters in general have a tendency to give him hell and prevent him from sweeping, as they usually have a lot of sp. def, decent physical defense, Haze, and Water absorb. He can't run a moveset that accommodates them all.

Alright, I'll give you Empoleon. Suicune and Milotic both are not hard counters. Suicune loses 60% to a boosted Outrage and can't switch in. Sure it can come in on the set up, but it does 12% - 14% with a boosted Surf. Not stopping Kingdra at all. A Sub Kingdra can just set up more, Sub before it KOs, then go on sweeping.

Milotic is taking 71% - 84% from a boosted Outrage. Not a counter at all, can only do 13-16% with a boosted Surf. Kingdra can again set up and sweep, especially if it's Sub variant.

Without the stats, the movepool, or Tail Glow to get past common OU walls and threats like TTar, Blissey, Vaporeon, and Suicune. There isn't a single rain sweeper that can take them all besides Manaphy.

I'm pretty sure actually that Kingdra can get through all of those. Kabutops as well. Probably Qwilfish. Why wouldn't they be able to?

Kingdra is 5 base points less in attack, Kabutops is 15 more in attack (with priority) and Qwilfish is less 5. In rain all have more speed. What more do they need to sweep? What movepool does a 2 attack Manaphy have that these Pokemon don't have?


The way I see it, Manaphy can not sweep any better than current rain sweepers. If you could explain with a more specific reason than "better movepool, better stats, less counters" then I might buy it. But currently you're giving general reasons that aren't making sense to me.

 

[shrang]

CB Lax has absolutely no chance to 2HKO Manaphy if it's running full HP and 88 def without a boosting nature, while I 2HKO with a Tail Glow boosted Surf.

I dont know where you got that, Adamant CB Lax always 2HKO's with Return (If you are running 252/88) => 525 Atk vs 258 Def & 404 HP (102 Base Power): 223 - 264 (55.20% - 65.35%), maybe you were running the calc for Body Slam?? Even then, it has a 97.17% of 2HKOing if you factor in Stealth Rock and Leftovers => 525 Atk vs 258 Def & 404 HP (85 Base Power): 186 - 220 (46.04% - 54.46%). Yes, Manaphy will 2HKO with a +2 Surf in the Rain (Assuming you either run a Modest nature or you dump at least some of those remaining 168 EVs into Special Attack), but you will have to choose whether you want to heal up in the process. If you Rest, you'll just get back to the same position as before you Rested, as the Snorlax will just attack you again (Not to mention if you keep Resting, the chances of crit will increase). If you proceed to kill it, you will have a 40-50% Manaphy ready to get picked off by Latias, Starmie, Raikou, whatever (If you're running Modest 168 Speed EVs, you will be picked off by Adamant Lucario using Close Combat or any other neutral natured 252 Base 90s).

Kingdra has more hard counters than Manaphy, which include Empoleon, Suicune, and Milotic. Actually, bulky waters in general have a tendency to give him hell and prevent him from sweeping, as they usually have a lot of sp. def, decent physical defense, Haze, and Water absorb. He can't run a moveset that accommodates them all.

It's funny you say that because Manaphy also has massive 4 slot syndrome and cannot accomodate for all his counters. Just take the TG + 3 Attacks set. Blissey walls that set to hell, not to mention your filler move also determines which Pokemon walls you the most. Your set (By the looks of which is TG/Rest/Surf/Filler) will also be resisted and set up on by its corresponding counters. Running Ice Beam? Gyara and Kingdra DDs up. Running HP Electric? Latias and Mence laughs at you. Running Energy Ball? Celebi and others walls you. Running HP Fire for Abomasnow?? Bulky Waters walk all over it. This is like the Garchomp mindset, something like it can run Choice Band/Choice Scarf/Yache Berry/Haban Berry/Swords Dance/Outrage/Earthquake/Fire Blast/Draco Meteor at the same time, but it can't. This leads to the next thing you said:

Without the stats, the movepool, or Tail Glow to get past common OU walls and threats like TTar, Blissey, Vaporeon, and Suicune. There isn't a single rain sweeper that can take them all besides Manaphy.

Again, your filler move will determine what you can get past and what you cannot. I also have to say, though, stuff like Kingdra and Kabutops can handle walls much better than Manaphy can. Kingdra can resort to going mixed, and so the wrong prediction will cost the opponent big time. Kabutops doesn't really give a crap, SD + Waterfall + Stone Edge + X-Scissor is going to wreaking teams much more efficiently than Manaphy ever will (+2 Waterfall in the rain will OHKO Skarm after SR, even with a Jolly nature, the closest thing to walling Kabutops in OU or has been OU is Cresselia, which is not only 2HKO'd, meaning it has to come in after something has died, and is also quite rare in OU these days anyway). If this is case, let's ban Kabutops and Kingdra first, but we won't, because like I said before, rain is NOT a common battle condition.

Let's say I use Gliscor to run Rain Dance. TTar won't come in on it because it can't do anything to Gliscor.

TTar doesn't have to do anything to Gliscor. If you see Gliscor use Rain Dance, TTar can just switch in and out (Provided not on multiple Earthquakes) and get rid of your rain. If anyone sees Gliscor use Rain Dance, they should recognise that Gliscor is not the threat, but whatever is going to come in. I'd be prefectly happy to switch in TTar into Gliscor after a Rain Dance and just switch it straight out after the Sand has rolled in.

 

[Staraptor Call]

Even if Manaphy could sweep better than any other Rain sweeper after Rain is set up, which we have already determined it cannot, it would still not be Uber because of that set. Becoming Uber via the Offensive Characteristic requires that a Pokemon's can not only sweep a large portion of the metagame, but can do so with little support. In the situation SJCrew was describing, Manaphy, in order to sweep, needs not only a free turn to use Tail Glow, but Rain Dance set up in advance as well. The Manaphy user would need a turn to set up Rain Dance, a turn to U-turn or Explode, and a turn to set up Tail Glow. Three turns of setup, which could potentially be stopped by a Tyranitar switch-in somewhere along the line, definitely does not qualify as the "little support" the Offensive Characteristic requires. Even though Manaphy is not the most threatening Rain sweeper, it would not be Uber even if it were. Sweeping under Rain in OU always requires more than "little support."

 

[SJCrew]

Suicune and Milotic both are not hard counters.

Haze, Roar, etc. If it runs all special, Bliss and bulky Water types will stop it every time. If it runs DD LO, Celebi, other bulky Grass types, Skarmory, and Steel-baiting in general keep it from sweeping. Vaporeon is also a pretty good option, since it can Protect, bring in a Steel, or Toxic stall if it deosn't have Lum Berry. Mixed is actually...pretty hard to completely counter, now that you mention it, but it doesn't have the staying power to set up more than once or amass any kills. Stall teams might try to put up a good fight, but I've seen my opponent go out of my way to try and counter Manaphy. Ttar, Blissey, Hippowdon, Quagsire, Latias (yeah, don't even try to tell me that's a coincidence). Manaphy beats them all.

maybe you were running the calc for Body Slam?

Yeah, I was actually. But we have to remember that Snorlax is the counter, not Manaphy, so he'll just take a good chunk of health and die. For Manaphy, that means absolutely nothing. If you don't kill it, it's still in the game.

Running Ice Beam? Gyara and Kingdra DDs up.

Speaking of which, I just faced a Gyara today (standard Adamant leftovers) and Tail Glowed right in its face for an easy 2HKO while it flailed about with DD and EQ. Kingdra is both less powerful and less bulky, so it's not going to fare any better.

If this is case, let's ban Kabutops and Kingdra first, but we won't, because like I said before, rain is NOT a common battle condition.

I’m calling bullshit on that logic because you’re not telling me that Rain Dance isn’t a viable strategy that’s simple to set up and maintain, you’re telling me that we shouldn’t take it into account for how well a Pokemon performs because not everyone uses it. If everyone confined themselves to such a one-sided train of thought, Wobbuffet would still be OU and the players that were actually smart enough to use it rather than ignore it would have the advantage in every single match, most likely garnering free wins and laughing at how ineffective the system is.

The same thing is going to happen with Manaphy if you guys vote him OU. From there, we’ll either get something stupid like Rain Dance clause (UU is headed that route right about now, actually) or finally ban Manaphy, which should have been done in the first place.

TTar doesn't have to do anything to Gliscor. If you see Gliscor use Rain Dance, TTar can just switch in and out (Provided not on multiple Earthquakes) and get rid of your rain. If anyone sees Gliscor use Rain Dance, they should recognise that Gliscor is not the threat, but whatever is going to come in. I'd be prefectly happy to switch in TTar into Gliscor after a Rain Dance and just switch it straight out after the Sand has rolled in.

Yeah, that's pretty stupid. You're just racking up entry hazard damage risking an Earthquake, which cuts your strategy clean off and even if I bring Manaphy in anyway and just start Tail Glowing, I'm going to kill Ttar, you don't accomplish anything, and I get to Rain Dance without hindrance for the sweep.

Even if Manaphy could sweep better than any other Rain sweeper after Rain is set up, which we have already determined it cannot, it would still not be Uber because of that set. Becoming Uber via the Offensive Characteristic requires that a Pokemon's can not only sweep a large portion of the metagame, but can do so with little support.

Using one move is little support. Stopping the rain by brainlessly bringing in Ttar or Hippowdon doesn't stop Manaphy, it just gives me free setup time. Manaphy has better stats than every other Rain Dance sweeper, Tail Glow, and full recovery to boot. You're going to have to go through extreme amounts of effort top stop it and by the time you realize you've exhausted an entire team of options and still can't beat it, it's laughing its ass off all the way to Ubers.

I also have to say, though, stuff like Kingdra and Kabutops can handle walls much better than Manaphy can.

Not if they’re Slowbro, Shaymin, Poliwrath, or Quagsire. Thanks to that awful Rock/Water typing of his, getting in safely enough to even SD is extremely difficult. And notice how his counters are all UU/NU because that’s exactly where they belong and the type of metagame Kabutops is relevant to. Once it makes BL and people start noticing how it runs through OU, I’ll let you know and we can have this debate again.

 

[NightmareZ]

Hmmmm, guys I'd like to turn the converstion back to latias for a sec. Anyway it seems that latias is not uber because it is stopped by all these pokes suggested beforehand. So really unless there is an offensive support category, latias is ou. Manaphy seems to be ou as well, but if latias goes to uber manaphy might too as that is one check gone.

Anyway imo there both border lining at the moment.

NightmareZ

 

[shrang]

Ttar, Blissey, Hippowdon, Quagsire, Latias (yeah, don't even try to tell me that's a coincidence). Manaphy beats them all.

First of all, I'd like to see one set that can actually beat just that list. Running Ice Beam for Latias?? Quagsire can come in and wall you (They can Encore Tail Glow and set up something else that would completely dominate). Running Energy Ball for Quagsire?? Latias pisses on you. Manaphy can only run 4 moves. He cannot run Rest/Tail Glow/Surf/Energy Ball/Ice Beam/Hidden Power Electric, just like how Chomp cannot run Choice Band/Choice Scarf/Yache Berry/Haban Berry/Swords Dance/Outrage/Earthquake/Fire Blast/Draco Meteor at the same time either. You WILL end up getting beaten by something, depending on your moveset.

I’m calling bullshit on that logic because you’re not telling me that Rain Dance isn’t a viable strategy that’s simple to set up and maintain, you’re telling me that we shouldn’t take it into account for how well a Pokemon performs because not everyone uses it. If everyone confined themselves to such a one-sided train of thought, Wobbuffet would still be OU and the players that were actually smart enough to use it rather than ignore it would have the advantage in every single match, most likely garnering free wins and laughing at how ineffective the system is.

The same thing is going to happen with Manaphy if you guys vote him OU. From there, we’ll either get something stupid like Rain Dance clause (UU is headed that route right about now, actually) or finally ban Manaphy, which should have been done in the first place.

Rain is not easy to set up and maintain. Yes, it's one turn setup, but the reason we aren't calling it in OU because how common TTar, Hippowdon, Abomasnow (Mainly just TTar, but meh). It is very difficult to maintain a rain sweep when firstly, TTar can come in before you even get to Manaphy, completely ruining your strategy straight away (Don't tell me about Gliscor, yes, I'll be racking up damage from Earthquake and Stealth Rock, but Manaphy will not be sweeping. Gliscor is not going anything significant to me either. Gliscor isn't completely TTar-proof either, people have been known to put Ice Beam or Fire Blast on ScarfTar, and Ice Beam completely wrecks Gliscor). I assume when Gliscor actually Rain Dances, he'll U-Turn next turn anyway, otherwise you'll be wasting Rain turns Manaphy could be abusing. I could even bring in TTar on your Tail Glow (Maybe sac it, if I could stop a Rain sweep, I would sac whenver convenient), and Manaphy will not be RainResting anymore. I could also switch to something that could easily threaten Manaphy while you bring him in (Exploders, strong Grass Pokemon like Celebi, Shaymin, Roserade, even Latias would at least force you to keep Resting with Thunderbolt, if your Manaphy wants to live).

Yes, I know not everyone uses it just like Wobb, but unlike Wobb, people choose not to use Rain for a reason. It is too damn unreliable. So many things could easily go wrong. Yes, we can let him in OU, and you spoke of two choices (Rain Dance clause or ban Manaphy), or we can simply just keep him in because quite frankly, Rain is not broken and neither is Manaphy. People would probably net a few free wins when he's first used, but people will learn to adapt to it (Which won't be very difficult). We won't have a Rain clause in OU, because unlike UU, we have auto-weather changers that can put a stop to when it is convenient. The Offensive characteristic says a Pokemon can sweep a significant portion of the opponent's team in normal battle conditions and with little to no support. As I've stated Rain is not a normal battle condition (Likewise, Trick Room, Gravity, Baton Pass, Sunny Day, etc), and your Manaphy needs 3 turns (1. Set up rain, 2. Switch to rain sweeper, 3. Tail Glow) of setup to get to anywhere near the point in which he can sweep. No wise player will allow you 3 free turns. Ever.

 

[NightmareZ]

To add to that every one in five teams has a ttar. Which if you ask me is pretty frustrating.

NightmareZ

 

[SJCrew]

Yes, it's one turn setup, but the reason we aren't calling it in OU because how common TTar, Hippowdon, Abomasnow (Mainly just TTar, but meh).

So you're saying that without Ttar on your team, you get swept horribly? Sounds like an awful case of overcentralization, which just proves that Manaphy is a bigger threat than OU can handle.

First of all, I'd like to see one set that can actually beat just that list.

I run Ice Beam because it shits on Latias horribly no matter what it does, which is the only Pokemon Manaphy seems to have any immense amount of trouble with otherwise.

Quagsire can come in and wall you

With its amazing base 65 special defense. I faced one today and it couldn't do shit but spam EQ and let me set up because of rain. My opponent wasn't bad at all, but I faced him twice already and it was getting to the point where he couldn't do anything about Manaphy except put Roar on every Pokemon and use two sandstorm summoners so as not to let me set up. The only problem was that no matter how many times he roared me out, or canceled the rain, Manaphy got its full recovery anyway and TTar had to die eventually. From that point on, nothing stopped it from running through his team.

No wise player will allow you 3 free turns. Ever.

That's not how the game works, buddy; he makes three moves, I make three moves. Unless you've played me about a million times before with the same team, you're not going to read my strategy off the bat and have a perfect answer for it. Even then, I can just outpredict everything you do, keep Manaphy alive no matter what, and maintain a massive advantage throughout the battle.

Regardless, I think we're getting off subject here. The question isn't whether or not I can get the rain up, but rather what you can do to keep Manaphy at bay before it utterly annihilates your team. If you're spending every single turn switching to cancel out the weather AND finding something to withstand Manaphy's onslaught it's clearly way too powerful for the standard environment.

To add to that every one in five teams has a ttar.

Which shifts 4/5 battles in my favor. How the hell is that not Uber?

 

[haunter]

So you're saying that without Ttar on your team, you get swept horribly? Sounds like an awful case of overcentralization, which just proves that Manaphy is a bigger threat than OU can handle.

It has been already stated multiple times that centralization means nothing. If centralization was something relevant to evaluate the uber status of a given Pokemon, then Scizor would have been moved to ubers a long time ago.

I run Ice Beam because it shits on Latias horribly no matter what it does, which is the only Pokemon Manaphy seems to have any immense amount of trouble with otherwise.

then you're walled by other Manaphy, Suicune can set up on you, Vaporeon will always roar you out or wish and protect until the rains stops, and freely spam hp electric.

That's not how the game works, buddy; he makes three moves, I make three moves. Unless you've played me about a million times before with the same team, you're not going to read my strategy off the bat and have a perfect answer for it. Even then, I can just outpredict everything you do, keep Manaphy alive no matter what, and maintain a massive advantage throughout the battle.

Three turns of set up are not what I consider "sweeping with little effort". Baton pass Gliscor+Metagross requires more or less the same amount of set up but we don't consider these Pokemon uber. And it's pretty much impossible to cover your team against every possible threat\strategy in the metagame, otherwise stall teams would be the only kind of strategy on the ladder.

Regardless, I think we're getting off subject here. The question isn't whether or not I can get the rain up, but rather what you can do to keep Manaphy at bay before it utterly annihilates your team. If you're spending every single turn switching to cancel out the weather AND finding something to withstand Manaphy's onslaught it's clearly way too powerful for the standard environment.

cancelling the rain is just a possible answer to Manaphy, and anyway a smart player knows when to switch in their weather changer (ie on the turn you use rest so that you stay asleep for two turns giving him\her the chance to do whatever they want).

And anyway, if your opponent gives you the chance to set up rain dance, an agility, baton pass it to Manaphy and let it use tail glow, then you're probably facing a bad player or a bad team (or both).

The using Pokemon x to set up a sweep with Pokemon y argument would make uber a good portion of the current OU metagame, so this point is quite irrelevant.