It can't select your own pokemon. Just the opponent.
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Pokemon VGC 2010 DATES / rules announced for the US!
- Thread starter POKEMONBATTLEBRAIN
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Not necessarily; Macho Brace has the same Speed-lowering effect as Iron Ball. Therefore, if an opponent leads with Iron Ball Groudon, there's still a 50% chance that you won't get your weather up.
I had the Me First idea a while back; however, I abandoned it when I found that it couldn't copy non-damaging moves and only targeted opponents. So pretty much the exact same thing that just happened here :P
It generally won't work out, as it's still susceptible to Fake Out, and pretty much the best thing you're going to get in this metagame is a Water Spout (which obviously isn't going to do much against Kyogre/Ludicolo/Palkia/Toxicroak). Maybe you could get in a Blizzard and KO Abomasnow, but Mewtwo can learn Blizzard anyway...
I had the Me First idea a while back; however, I abandoned it when I found that it couldn't copy non-damaging moves and only targeted opponents. So pretty much the exact same thing that just happened here :P
It generally won't work out, as it's still susceptible to Fake Out, and pretty much the best thing you're going to get in this metagame is a Water Spout (which obviously isn't going to do much against Kyogre/Ludicolo/Palkia/Toxicroak). Maybe you could get in a Blizzard and KO Abomasnow, but Mewtwo can learn Blizzard anyway...
well I don't see many people recommending using it. I think it would work out well. Doubt many people use iron ball.
I used Me First for a while on Lucario in singles, but I rarely got any moves that helped me out (Infernape using Flamethrower, Bronzong using EQ). It can work to some extent...I love the idea of hitting Palkia w/ it's own Spacial Rend.
It isn't the worst idea...but it can be hard to land the right attack w/ it. It takes some incredible prediction, a lot of luck, and for the enemy to have out the right Pokemon at the right time. Although....putting on a Mewtwo w/ Me First, Protect, and Selfdestruct can be risky. Mainly because of the lack of a reliable attack in case something goes wrong.
Choice Scarf is also a foul idea, because:
a) Sooner or later the opponent will probably figure out your locked into Me First and take advantage of you, or, even worse, you will get locked into Protect.
b) At base 130 speed, there are only 4 Pokemon who can naturally outrun Mewtwo:
Deoxys A, Deoxys S, Normal Deoxys, Eelectrode, and Ninjask
Obviously, those Pokemon are very rare in/banned from the VGC. Your only worry is outrunning other Mewtwo, but not too many Mewtwo will have a positive speed nature or even max speed, usually carrying about 232 speed and putting the rest in Attack (for self destruct) and Sp Attack, so a timid Mewtwo will usually outrun whatever needs to be outrun.
Me First is still an option if Mewtwo has the right partners to help him out and the right move pool to support it. Keep in mind that over half of the Pokemon on rain teams resist their own attacks (Palkia and Ludicolo have a double resistance to their own water attacks, Toxicroak is immune to Water Spout, and resists it's own fighting, poison, and dark attacks, etc.). BTW, Groudon w/ Eruption will be a very rare sight in the VGC. Groudon has good Sp Attack, but w/ all the other ubers running ramped, he can't afford to use his "good" Sp Attack over half the time and resorts to his "Great" attack. It also doesn't help that a lot of Pokemon are packing Sp Defense to counter just as pwerfull Sp Attacks from Pokemon w/ even more Sp Attack power....
Keep in mind Mewtwo has to attack before the target or it won't work (although that's only a problem if the enemy uses priority/your vs Timid Mewtwo).
@ Patraic
Your team has gotten to the point where you should just post it on a RMT. You already have all the EVs, Move pools, natures, abilities, etc for your team, which is a lot farther than most of the people on this thread have.
It isn't the worst idea...but it can be hard to land the right attack w/ it. It takes some incredible prediction, a lot of luck, and for the enemy to have out the right Pokemon at the right time. Although....putting on a Mewtwo w/ Me First, Protect, and Selfdestruct can be risky. Mainly because of the lack of a reliable attack in case something goes wrong.
Choice Scarf is also a foul idea, because:
a) Sooner or later the opponent will probably figure out your locked into Me First and take advantage of you, or, even worse, you will get locked into Protect.
b) At base 130 speed, there are only 4 Pokemon who can naturally outrun Mewtwo:
Deoxys A, Deoxys S, Normal Deoxys, Eelectrode, and Ninjask
Obviously, those Pokemon are very rare in/banned from the VGC. Your only worry is outrunning other Mewtwo, but not too many Mewtwo will have a positive speed nature or even max speed, usually carrying about 232 speed and putting the rest in Attack (for self destruct) and Sp Attack, so a timid Mewtwo will usually outrun whatever needs to be outrun.
Me First is still an option if Mewtwo has the right partners to help him out and the right move pool to support it. Keep in mind that over half of the Pokemon on rain teams resist their own attacks (Palkia and Ludicolo have a double resistance to their own water attacks, Toxicroak is immune to Water Spout, and resists it's own fighting, poison, and dark attacks, etc.). BTW, Groudon w/ Eruption will be a very rare sight in the VGC. Groudon has good Sp Attack, but w/ all the other ubers running ramped, he can't afford to use his "good" Sp Attack over half the time and resorts to his "Great" attack. It also doesn't help that a lot of Pokemon are packing Sp Defense to counter just as pwerfull Sp Attacks from Pokemon w/ even more Sp Attack power....
Keep in mind Mewtwo has to attack before the target or it won't work (although that's only a problem if the enemy uses priority/your vs Timid Mewtwo).
Iron Ball Groudon will be a big threat this year, considering they are guaranteed to get weather up, then can Fling their Iron Ball at Mewtwo to cause some major damage and become faster than other slow weather inducers. Everyone uses Iron Ball instead of Macho Brace because Iron Ball takes away a lot more damage than Flinging Macho Brace. The only time Macho Brace should be used over Iron Ball is if you are using a flying Pokemon, but why would a Flying Pokemon be setting up infinite weather when none of them have an ability thats sets it up by switching. If they will just use the attack Rain Dance or Sunny Day, than there is no point in making it slow outside of TR.
@ Patraic
Your team has gotten to the point where you should just post it on a RMT. You already have all the EVs, Move pools, natures, abilities, etc for your team, which is a lot farther than most of the people on this thread have.
My team is a Kyogre, Infernape lead with a Palkia but I dont know who else is usable. I refuse to base my team off of Rain Dance. Any have any options for me?
You can put Protect on Infernape, then add Toxicroak. This will let Palkia and Kyogre abuse Surf. If not that, you can use Snorlax w/ Self destruct (If your Pokemon have Protect), Return, Crunch (mainly for Mewtwo) and probably a filler (EQ If your Pokemon carry Protect, but I wouldn't really recommend it on a team like yours). Latios can make another sweeper w/ something like Draco Meteor (or Dragon Pulse, for consistent damage)/Grass Knot (or Energy Ball)/Psychic/filler or something like that, but that might leave you open to, albeit uncommon, boosted dragon attacks (it doesn't look like anyway will be using SD or DD).
From a defensive prospective, Meta and Scizor come to mind. Opposing Palkia and Dialga will annoy your team because your Palkia is still weak to Dragon, and Dialga/Palkia both have access to Thunder (and Palkia has it a lot considering he is most commonly found on rain teams where Thunder never misses) to hit Kyogre as well as resistances to water, electric and are neutral to ice. Infernape isn't famous for it's defenses nor can it hit opposing Palkia hard. Scizor and Meta can also check TR by being slow and capable of operating in or out of TR. Meta can also run Aligross, but you have to be carefull of who you try to set up on and make sure he can opperate w/ or w/o boosts.
As I've mentioned a lot of times in this thread, it's all about the rest of your team. Your last Pokemon should be used to tie the rest of the team together by filling in gaps, weaknesses, etc. Like if Infernape, Kyogre, and Palkia are all special attackers, than your last Pokemon should be a physical attacker w/ attackers to cover Pokemon the other 3 members of your team can't handly too easily.
From a defensive prospective, Meta and Scizor come to mind. Opposing Palkia and Dialga will annoy your team because your Palkia is still weak to Dragon, and Dialga/Palkia both have access to Thunder (and Palkia has it a lot considering he is most commonly found on rain teams where Thunder never misses) to hit Kyogre as well as resistances to water, electric and are neutral to ice. Infernape isn't famous for it's defenses nor can it hit opposing Palkia hard. Scizor and Meta can also check TR by being slow and capable of operating in or out of TR. Meta can also run Aligross, but you have to be carefull of who you try to set up on and make sure he can opperate w/ or w/o boosts.
As I've mentioned a lot of times in this thread, it's all about the rest of your team. Your last Pokemon should be used to tie the rest of the team together by filling in gaps, weaknesses, etc. Like if Infernape, Kyogre, and Palkia are all special attackers, than your last Pokemon should be a physical attacker w/ attackers to cover Pokemon the other 3 members of your team can't handly too easily.
Well now, that's just awful. And to think you were that close to breaking Pokemon. And since it's a random opponent, that must make Me First completely unusable.
Could it be safe to say that there won't be many Trick Room teams this time around, and that we won't need to bother with contributing too many attacks to countering the cause? Ubers don't quite agree with Trick Room since the team's two Ubers are going to be Base Speed 90's and pretty much only Groudon being able to use Fling/Ball well. I was putting a Trick Room team together, but after seeing that Dialga doesn't learn Grass Knot and Rayquaza Fling I wanted to kill dead babies.
I'm actually starting to think Kyogre won't be used as much as everyone thinks. Players will be too busy making sure they can counter Kyogre than to make a team based around him. CCM30 is the only person I have seen so far to run a standard rain team.
You can still assume TR will be used. I have seen a lot of people preparing TR teams, mainly because, as you said:
Flinging Iron Ball is usually only used on Groudon so he can set up Sun, than Fling to make himself faster then other weather inducers.
You can still assume TR will be used. I have seen a lot of people preparing TR teams, mainly because, as you said:
This is actually encouraging people to use TR. When TR is up, it gives normal Pokemon the advantage, while crippling opposing teams Ubers. That, and TR teams can usually operate even when their Ubers are KO'd. While most teams in this years VGC have Ubers as sweepers and normal Pokemon for support, most Trick Room teams use their Pokemon for sweeping as well as Ubers, to make as much use of the small amount of TR time they have. They can't afford to shuffle out their normal Pokemon for Ubers whenever they are ready to sweep...
Flinging Iron Ball is usually only used on Groudon so he can set up Sun, than Fling to make himself faster then other weather inducers.
What would be a better nature for Tyranitar if I'm not running trickroom?
To be honest, even my rain team is discouraging me from using it. The only one really working well on my team is Palkia because he is such a powerhouse, but because RD is so common now people are just expecting it of the opponent. I mean, Toxicroak is pretty predictable now (what Tox doesn't have Sucker Punch and STAB fighting?).
I dunno if I will end up running a rain team at all because of Kyogre's uselessness all the time.
EDIT: And that reminds me, any Blissey's running around? I was thinking of running a double-substitute lead with Blissey and either Mewtwo or Lugia. It would protect me from Dark Void and, even though I know status moves aren't too effective all of the time, I could run Blissey throwing around Thunder Waves while allowing Lugia to do damage and possible a Mewtwo or Palkia in the back as my second Uber and maybe something like Weavile for a late-game sweeper.
Looking like this:
Blissey/Lugia
Mewtwo or Palkia/Weavile
I dunno if I will end up running a rain team at all because of Kyogre's uselessness all the time.
EDIT: And that reminds me, any Blissey's running around? I was thinking of running a double-substitute lead with Blissey and either Mewtwo or Lugia. It would protect me from Dark Void and, even though I know status moves aren't too effective all of the time, I could run Blissey throwing around Thunder Waves while allowing Lugia to do damage and possible a Mewtwo or Palkia in the back as my second Uber and maybe something like Weavile for a late-game sweeper.
Looking like this:
Blissey/Lugia
Mewtwo or Palkia/Weavile
Max speed on Tyranitar w/ a beneficial nature comes short of outrunning semi-fast Kyogre and Groudon (semi-fast = any yield above 200 speed w/ a neutral nature, they have the same base speed). W/ Mewtwo's 130 Base Speed, T-Tar can't outrun him (almost nothing in VGC can bar Weavile if Mewtwo has Modest). He does a good job removing most non-ubers and Dialga. The nature depends on the EV yield and set, like weather T-Tar is mixed or not and what your trying to outrun:
Max speed T-Tar w/ a beneficial nature hits 243 speed.
Max Speed Ludicolo w/ a neutral nature hits 239 speed outside of rain.
Max Speed Scizor w/ a beneficial nature hits 251 and neutral nature hits 229 speed.
Max Speed Toxicroak w/ a neutral nature hits 269 speed.
Max Speed Shiftry w/ a neutral nature hits 259 speed outside of sun.
Max Speed Exeggutor w/ a neutral nature hits 209 and w/ a beneficial nature 229 speed outside of the sun.
Tyranitar w/ 232 attack EVs, no item, and a neutral nature hits 362 attack meaning it deals:
Crunch on 0HP / 0Defense Mewtwo w/ a neutral nature = 81.6-96.9%
Crunch on 252HP / 0Defense Lugia w/ a neutral nature = 48.1-56.7%
Crunch on 4HP / 252 Defense Blissey w/ a neutral nature = 40.2-47.4%
Rock Slide on 4HP / 252 Defense Blissey w/ a neutral Nature = 37.7-44.3%
Rock Slide on 252HP / 20 Defense Togekiss w/ a neutral nature = 67.9-80.2%
Rock Slide on 252HP / 4 Defense Jumpluff w/ a neutral nature = 93.8-110.7%
EQ on 252HP / 0 Defense Dialga w/ a neutral nature = 47-55.4%
EQ on 4HP / 0 Defense Toxicroak w/ a neutral nature = 101.9-120.1% (as I said, not the bulkiest Pokemon)
EQ on 252HP / 224 Defense Metagross w/ a neutral nature = 40.1-47.8%
EQ on 252HP / 0 Defense Metagross w/ a neutral nature = 48.4-57.1%
I can't look up too much stuff right now because something funny is going on w/ my computer...but those are some calculations. These calculations are just estimates to give you an idea and help you EV and pick a nature and item for your T-Tar. The Rock Slide calculations don't factor in Rock Slide's power reduction. Because it hits both enemies, it's power is split (I can't remember how much). It shouldn't make too much of a difference, though.
According to Bulbapedia, Toxicroak is a Poison and Fighting type, so he gets STAB for Fighting attacks (like Low Kick and Cross Chop). It also says he learns Sucker Punch at Level 31 (after he evolves from Croagunk, so you may need to use a Heart Scale). Cross Chop and Fake Out are egg moves, so you can't get both on the same Toxi. Cross Chop is from breeding w/ Machamp, and Fake Out from Haryama/Sableye.
I would love to help w/ your RD team, but I'm not sure how to fix it because I don't have too much experience w/ rain (or using Kyogre, I haven't made a Rain team w/ ubers).
Max speed T-Tar w/ a beneficial nature hits 243 speed.
Max Speed Ludicolo w/ a neutral nature hits 239 speed outside of rain.
Max Speed Scizor w/ a beneficial nature hits 251 and neutral nature hits 229 speed.
Max Speed Toxicroak w/ a neutral nature hits 269 speed.
Max Speed Shiftry w/ a neutral nature hits 259 speed outside of sun.
Max Speed Exeggutor w/ a neutral nature hits 209 and w/ a beneficial nature 229 speed outside of the sun.
Tyranitar w/ 232 attack EVs, no item, and a neutral nature hits 362 attack meaning it deals:
Crunch on 0HP / 0Defense Mewtwo w/ a neutral nature = 81.6-96.9%
Crunch on 252HP / 0Defense Lugia w/ a neutral nature = 48.1-56.7%
Crunch on 4HP / 252 Defense Blissey w/ a neutral nature = 40.2-47.4%
Rock Slide on 4HP / 252 Defense Blissey w/ a neutral Nature = 37.7-44.3%
Rock Slide on 252HP / 20 Defense Togekiss w/ a neutral nature = 67.9-80.2%
Rock Slide on 252HP / 4 Defense Jumpluff w/ a neutral nature = 93.8-110.7%
EQ on 252HP / 0 Defense Dialga w/ a neutral nature = 47-55.4%
EQ on 4HP / 0 Defense Toxicroak w/ a neutral nature = 101.9-120.1% (as I said, not the bulkiest Pokemon)
EQ on 252HP / 224 Defense Metagross w/ a neutral nature = 40.1-47.8%
EQ on 252HP / 0 Defense Metagross w/ a neutral nature = 48.4-57.1%
I can't look up too much stuff right now because something funny is going on w/ my computer...but those are some calculations. These calculations are just estimates to give you an idea and help you EV and pick a nature and item for your T-Tar. The Rock Slide calculations don't factor in Rock Slide's power reduction. Because it hits both enemies, it's power is split (I can't remember how much). It shouldn't make too much of a difference, though.
There are Blissey, but they aren't as common as they are in OU. They have been replaced by Clefable and Togekiss because of Clef's and Toge's larger supporting move pool. Double Sub's sounds good.....But you have to be careful of Taunt Mewtwo and T-Tar breaking both Subs w/ Rock Slide, and if Smeargle is the enemy's lead, then Blissey won't be able to set up Sub in time. She has a base speed of 55. I can imagine Blissey's subs are enormous.
According to Bulbapedia, Toxicroak is a Poison and Fighting type, so he gets STAB for Fighting attacks (like Low Kick and Cross Chop). It also says he learns Sucker Punch at Level 31 (after he evolves from Croagunk, so you may need to use a Heart Scale). Cross Chop and Fake Out are egg moves, so you can't get both on the same Toxi. Cross Chop is from breeding w/ Machamp, and Fake Out from Haryama/Sableye.
I would love to help w/ your RD team, but I'm not sure how to fix it because I don't have too much experience w/ rain (or using Kyogre, I haven't made a Rain team w/ ubers).
Yeah, it's really between whether I want a ridiculous sub in Blissey or being able to get it out first with Togekiss/Clefable. Though, if I see a Smeargle (if his other lead doesn't have a Fake Out user, I haven't seen a Smeargle/FO lead yet), I can just go right after it with one of my guys, depending on whom I really need the sub for.
I could run a pretty damaging team with Toge/Lugia and Mewtwo and Weavile in the back. Palkia could work, but without rain help, I dunno what it will do more than Mewtwo (and it lacks Grass Knot, I believe, which Mewtwo does not lack).
Mewtwo will probably serve a better role on this new team because, as I mentioned earlier in this thread (I do realize I say that way to much), Mewtwo does an excellent job of tying a team together w/ his enormous move pool. But if your getting rid of Palkia and adding Togekiss, watch out for the uncommon-in-VGC T-Tar, as all of your Pokemon are either weak to Crunch or Rock Slide. Lugia should be able to take a Rock Slide, but it's still something to watch out for, especially if Lugia is weakened.
The choice between Mewtwo and Palkia usually depends on:
a) The type of team your running and who else is on it.
b) The effects that you expect to be on the feild (sun, rain, gravity, SS, etc)
c) If Dragons and SS is a problem, then Palkia is a better choice. Also, Mewtwo can cause some pain to Groudon, while Palkia can't hurt him outside of Dragon attacks when the sun is up.
The choice between Mewtwo and Palkia usually depends on:
a) The type of team your running and who else is on it.
b) The effects that you expect to be on the feild (sun, rain, gravity, SS, etc)
c) If Dragons and SS is a problem, then Palkia is a better choice. Also, Mewtwo can cause some pain to Groudon, while Palkia can't hurt him outside of Dragon attacks when the sun is up.
True that, but like you said, pretty uncommon. Still, if Toge and Lugia both get up Subs in time, they'll be able to at least use the turn after to deal with him (unless he drops the sub immediately, which, now that I think about it, could likely happen).
It seems like worth the risk. And double-subs is something I'm looking to try out. It seems like a fun thing to dabble with.
Stopping Tyranitar should be as easy as putting Aura Sphere on Togekiss. Mewtwo has Grass Knot, which should cause some damage (I'll do calculations in a few minutes).
OK, here are some calculations:
These are all T-Tar holding expert belt (when I changed the EVs and nature, I forgot to change the item)
252 Attack Neutral Nature T-Tar will take away 55.3-65.6% to 252 HP / 60 Defense neutral nature Lugia when using Rock Slide.
The same Tyranitar does 82.6-98.1% to 252 HP / 20 Defense neutral nature Togekiss when using rock slide.
The same T-Tar deals 99.7-118.1% to 0 Defense / 4 HP Mewtwo when using Crunch.
The same T-Tar also deals 58.7-69.7% to 252 HP/ 60 Defense neutral nature Lugia.
OK, here is the fixed calculations (w/o the Expert Belt):
252 Attack Neutral Nature T-Tar will take away 46.2-54.8% to 252 HP / 60 Defense neutral nature Lugia when using Rock Slide.
The same Tyranitar does 69-81.8% to 252 HP / 20 Defense neutral nature Togekiss when using rock slide.
The same T-Tar does 122.3-145% to 40 HP / 0 Defense neutral nature Weavile.
The same T-Tar deals 83.1-98.3% to 0 Defense / 4 HP Mewtwo when using Crunch.
The same T-Tar also deals 49-58.2% to 252 HP/ 60 Defense neutral nature Lugia using Crunch.
As long as the Tyranitar has over 230 attack and a neutral nature, it will deal over 50% to most of your Pokemon except Lugia, which it will need max attack and a benificial nature to deal more then half (these calculations don't include the damage reduction Rock Slide recieves from hitting both Pokemon, but the numbers will still be pretty similar).
Tyranitar is still uncommon, so he isn't the biggest of threats as long as you carry a move that can hurt him.
OK, here are some calculations:
These are all T-Tar holding expert belt (when I changed the EVs and nature, I forgot to change the item)
252 Attack Neutral Nature T-Tar will take away 55.3-65.6% to 252 HP / 60 Defense neutral nature Lugia when using Rock Slide.
The same Tyranitar does 82.6-98.1% to 252 HP / 20 Defense neutral nature Togekiss when using rock slide.
The same T-Tar deals 99.7-118.1% to 0 Defense / 4 HP Mewtwo when using Crunch.
The same T-Tar also deals 58.7-69.7% to 252 HP/ 60 Defense neutral nature Lugia.
OK, here is the fixed calculations (w/o the Expert Belt):
252 Attack Neutral Nature T-Tar will take away 46.2-54.8% to 252 HP / 60 Defense neutral nature Lugia when using Rock Slide.
The same Tyranitar does 69-81.8% to 252 HP / 20 Defense neutral nature Togekiss when using rock slide.
The same T-Tar does 122.3-145% to 40 HP / 0 Defense neutral nature Weavile.
The same T-Tar deals 83.1-98.3% to 0 Defense / 4 HP Mewtwo when using Crunch.
The same T-Tar also deals 49-58.2% to 252 HP/ 60 Defense neutral nature Lugia using Crunch.
As long as the Tyranitar has over 230 attack and a neutral nature, it will deal over 50% to most of your Pokemon except Lugia, which it will need max attack and a benificial nature to deal more then half (these calculations don't include the damage reduction Rock Slide recieves from hitting both Pokemon, but the numbers will still be pretty similar).
Tyranitar is still uncommon, so he isn't the biggest of threats as long as you carry a move that can hurt him.
That also means that Trick Room is at a large disadvantage because its Pokemon will be considerably weaker in most cases. It'll be very hard to OHKO in this meta and I'm pretty sure most Ubers have an advantage over normal pokemon type-wise and with their movepools (although I haven't researched that yet, so don't quote me on it).
Anyone else remember how chaotic the team planning in this thread was when the rules were first announced and before everyone could do enough research on the new meta? I remember calling it a rock-paper-scissors format but at least now that the initial hype has worn off we can properly analyze it.
Trick Room teams only using one [Dialga] or even no Ubers would be quite bizzarre, but I don't think any with no Ubers at all will do any good because of how fragile Dusknoir is going to be. The mind trio types in general aren't going to be any good at this VGC widely because of Mewtwo picking off everything but the Dark types left to Toxicroak, who you know is going to end up in quite a few places.
DERP DERP I'M BLISSEY THE FAT PINK WHORE!
Blissey's usefulness comes from its ability to completely and totally wall Special attackers. However, because it's possible to focus your fire and gang up in Doubles, and because the meta is much too fast to allow for recovery on most Pokemon, Blissey won't do so well. This is also a large part of the reason why you aren't seeing Lugia and Giratina being discussed much, if at all. Pokemon need to be able to fire off huge attacks. Sure, Blissey and Lugia are going to last longer than other Pokemon, but they won't be accomplishing much during their stay.
I remember facing a Calm Mind Giratina in a test match that used Rest/Chesto [and I would've won that battle if I hadn't gone with a -Speed Latios instead of getting off my ass and getting a real one to test]. While it stayed for a long time, it never actually did anything to me because it needed time to set up and after that it didn't have time to launch any worthwhile attacks. You could get some effectiveness out of having a wall next to a sweeper and equipping the wall with obnoxious status moves, but it's still fairly simple to counter for most teams and is a risky strategy.
He said Sub, not CM. And if the sub is bulky enough, CM can be of some use because he will have a chance to set up. Although...I do agree that CM is risky. If you really need to run a stat move, it's usually better to run one that gives +2, like RP Groudon. Lugia will rarely have any problem setting up a Sub considering the fact that he's faster than all the ubers except Mewtwo (Base Speed = 110).
Because of Dialga's resistances (and the fact his longevity is extended even further because it's usually protected by a Follow Me wall) he can usually survive 4 turns. And if he doesn't, than that shouldn't be a problem because, as with all weather, you should have a backup plan and be using Pokemon who can work with or without TR up. Cresselia is still an option to set up TR, also.
People use Aqua Tail on Palkia, and it usually works even though he has 100 Base Attack. I would think Metagross's Meteor Mash should hurt just as much because it's hitting of a Base Attack of 135, which is obviously pretty high when compared to Palkia's.
I've also seen a lot of people use Giratina (-0) on TR teams. He is one of the examples of a good Pokemon weather his field effect is up or not. Here is a movie I found of someone doing good w/ TR:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy4DYEwjtBk&feature=related
I've seen other videos, but I can't remember/find the links.
That team is extremely interesting, especially with Weavile leading a Trick Room team. That whole team was just bizarre. I'm going to need to study those battles a lot.
Having Fake Out isn't a requirement....But having Fake Out + Sub might have more success then having them both set up at the same time. Double sub could still be used, but you would have to send out Toge/Lugia later on when the conditions are just right.
The only reason they used Weavile in that video is because they wanted to keep the enemy guessing. They also probably gave Weavile Iron Ball, that way they could be slow for TR, and then be able to launch a 130 BP dark attack when it ended. It isn't that great an example of a TR team, but I don't have any examples right now.
The only reason they used Weavile in that video is because they wanted to keep the enemy guessing. They also probably gave Weavile Iron Ball, that way they could be slow for TR, and then be able to launch a 130 BP dark attack when it ended. It isn't that great an example of a TR team, but I don't have any examples right now.
Normally, the nature of Adamant or Jolly is up to preference, but in this case Jolly is almost a requirement. W/o Jolly, running max speed on T-Tar doesn't mean much because he really can't outrun anything else w/o the boost from Jolly, as you saw in the post I typed earlier on this page. Even w/ a beneficial he is slow, but that beneficial nature will allow him to outrun at least a few Pokemon (max Ludi outside of rain, Exeggutor outside of sun, and Adamant Scizor) that 252 EVs falls just barely short of accomplishing on it's own, and Jolly usually pushes it up that 5 or 6 points needed.
In OU and UU, there are a wide variety of Pokemon to out-speed and overpower, and not too many Pokemon run max speed. They usually only carry enough speed to outrun counters, and there are a wider variety of speed stats (over half of the Pokemon being used in the VGC are between the speeds of 90 and 100). In the VGC, though, it looks like a Pokemon either has max speed or no speed. Because of this, T-Tar can't afford to trade the extra speed for power as easily because unless it's in TR, it has trouble keeping up (as opposed to in OU, where not everything is maxed out).
In OU and UU, there are a wide variety of Pokemon to out-speed and overpower, and not too many Pokemon run max speed. They usually only carry enough speed to outrun counters, and there are a wider variety of speed stats (over half of the Pokemon being used in the VGC are between the speeds of 90 and 100). In the VGC, though, it looks like a Pokemon either has max speed or no speed. Because of this, T-Tar can't afford to trade the extra speed for power as easily because unless it's in TR, it has trouble keeping up (as opposed to in OU, where not everything is maxed out).
I've been doing a lot of thinking about Weavile recently. What exactly can outspeed a jolly 252 speed Weavile? Sans Ludicolo in rain, because I'm using one anyway. I was thinking about double fake out leads to break any sashes/mess around with set ups.
I'm trying very hard not to worry about TR teams this year, I've just slapped on some STAB priority moves in the hopes of TR not working as well as some people are hoping. I'm completely more worried about crazy fast mewtwos, even more so than waterspouting kyogres.
I'm trying very hard not to worry about TR teams this year, I've just slapped on some STAB priority moves in the hopes of TR not working as well as some people are hoping. I'm completely more worried about crazy fast mewtwos, even more so than waterspouting kyogres.
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