-
Smogon Premier League is here and the team collection is now available. Support your team!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2025 Smog Awards!
The UU Viablity Rankings topic.
- Thread starter PK Gaming
- Start date
No you're not! I support you!
Elsewise I still think Uxie should go to S; it can just do too much too reliably. Also I think it's a bit ridiculous to rank rain sweepers. With rain up Kabutops and Ludicolo are ten times more dangerous than Raikou and Moltres for obvious reasons. In fact with rain up Kabutops and Ludicolo can hold their own in OU easily, maybe even Ubers (see the analysis page on Kabutops). If you're going to rank them when rain is up then they are well above Suspect tier. I think it's just better to rank them without rain.
@Heysup above - why is beating rain teams that important? Rain is one part of the playstyle ... saying if a Pokemon beats rain then it should move up seems rather like saying that since Chansey walls special attackers it should move up.
I certainly agree with Heysup on those though. Maybe not for the exact same reasons, but the two of them are very fearsome sweepers, and I have seen both of them breaking Stall and Offensive teams much more than top tiered pokémons (I'd go as far as saying they are two of the most reliable pokés to do so). They are, as Heysup said, great pokés to face the rain surge as well, as Absol can take lots of sweepers out with Sucker Punch and Torterra can take things like Kabutops and Qwilfish with no boosts.
I find RP Pokemon in general to be underwhelming. Yeah, it helps with their shitty speed, but it doesn't boost their power. I know they all have >100 base Attack, but without a boost, they usually won't be able to OHKO all the things that will OHKO back.
Absol should be moved up. Good Swords Dancer, good Scarfer, good movepool, good ability, good base attack, good everything.
I personally think Umbreon should be moved up. I once thought I had a game in the bag when I was up 4-1 until a Wishing Umbreon started setting un-phazable Curses. Once my Venomoth was dead, I knew I had no other way of taking it down and lost. As this shows, when you combine Curse and great Sp. Def, you get a stalling monster on your hands that will eventually dismantle your team with boosted Paybacks. You can also run Sucker Punch for surprise factor and to annoy revenge killers. It also gets Heal Bell for getting rid of status on your team, which has great synergy with Synchronize, allowing it to be a great status absorber while inflicting it back at your opponent. It also has Baton Pass for passing away the Curses and Wish for some team healing.
Absol should be moved up. Good Swords Dancer, good Scarfer, good movepool, good ability, good base attack, good everything.
I personally think Umbreon should be moved up. I once thought I had a game in the bag when I was up 4-1 until a Wishing Umbreon started setting un-phazable Curses. Once my Venomoth was dead, I knew I had no other way of taking it down and lost. As this shows, when you combine Curse and great Sp. Def, you get a stalling monster on your hands that will eventually dismantle your team with boosted Paybacks. You can also run Sucker Punch for surprise factor and to annoy revenge killers. It also gets Heal Bell for getting rid of status on your team, which has great synergy with Synchronize, allowing it to be a great status absorber while inflicting it back at your opponent. It also has Baton Pass for passing away the Curses and Wish for some team healing.
Although Jynx has Stealth Rock weaknesses and a lot of weaknesses, her capability to Perish Trap and Calm Mind Sweep makes her worth to be out of E tier into C tier, IMHO.
Once it's up and running it's hard to beat but to get there they'll have to sacrifice alot of HP. Sub takes away 25% directly. Stealth rock and Spikes is everywhere and if you haven't spinned away those it'll be at 25% when it has setted up. From 25&HP your chances of succesfully pulling of a nice sweep is small. Of course everyone hasn't 3 layers of Spikes up but it'll still peak at 50% HP.
This whole "once it's up and running" thing irks me somewhat. Once Pokemon set up, they are significantly harder to take down, this is true of all Pokemon. The difference is how EASILY they set up. That's the difference between Raikou, who has the bulk to come in on a neutral attack, Sub on the switch, and go from there, and Raichu, who really needs to come in on quite a weak/resisted attack.
This is pretty interesting.
The only two inconsistencies are Swellow and Ambipom for Alakazam and Hitmontop.
To me, Hitmontop would seem like it would be used less than Donphan due to lower attack and relying on a Fighting-type STAB. Alakazam is good, but Swellow is faster and hits harder (without set up).
Anyway, I found it interesting that both of our top 14s are pretty close to being identical.
our rankings said:
march stats said:
The only two inconsistencies are Swellow and Ambipom for Alakazam and Hitmontop.
To me, Hitmontop would seem like it would be used less than Donphan due to lower attack and relying on a Fighting-type STAB. Alakazam is good, but Swellow is faster and hits harder (without set up).
Anyway, I found it interesting that both of our top 14s are pretty close to being identical.
About Hitmontop: it is because Hitmontop isn't limited to the spinning job (which, by the way, it does really well) like Donphan. It also serves as a revenge killer, and even as a bulky sweeper (Bulk Up sets with Mach Punch).
Of course, Donphan is more powerful.
It can't do all of those at once, if it's a dedicated Spinner, it's a dedicated Spinner and nothing much else. So yea I fail to see how that would make up for the power that Donphan has.
And Hitmontop usually is a dedicated Spinner:
Code:
| Hitmontop | Move | Rapid Spin | 68.5 |Yeah,it can't.
But when we consider those sets Hitmontop can use, it's usage surpasses that of Donphan.
Hence why Hitmontop is more common than Donphan.
Since you said in your post that Hitmontop would seem like it would be used less than Donphan, i just posted my thoughts of why Top is more used than Donphan.
Not that one is better than another. Understand?
I feel that swellow should move up to S-tier and mismagius to be moved down to B.
Swellow is relatively easy to set up, and ohkos so many things that its not even funny. With three layers of spikes down (easy due to froslass), counters are hard to come by. I personally run quick attack over protect, which lets swellow get in a relatively big hit against priority users not using sucker punch, and outright destroys those with it (disables SP).
Mismagius's power is pretty underwhelming, as it fails to OHKO pretty much any special wall. Raikou does subCM a lot better, while the nasty plot set is bait to swellow. Even other pokemon such as scyther (risks speed tie), raikou and dugtrio can outspeed and heavily damage.
Super Rain Dancers
Kabutops
Luddicolo
Suspect Rank
Moltres
Froslass
Raikou
S Rank
Registeel
Venusaur
Rhyperior
MiloticArcanine
A rank
Mismagius
Uxie
Qwilfish (Rain)
Gorebyss (Rain)
Omastar (Rain)
Donphan
Spiritomb
Ambipom
Swellow
B Rank
Scyther
Blaziken
Omastar
Alakazam
Houndoom- Down to C. It can't even 2hko 252 hp/200 spdef milotic without the use of a super effective hidden power. Also countered by arcanine, and too slow to do much.
Absol
Rotom
Umbreon
Hitmontop
Dugtrio
Toxicroak
Clefable
Azumarill
Torterra
Feraligatr
Slowbro
Slowking
C Rank
Altaria
Steelix
Drapion
Sceptile
Chansey
Lanturn
Nidoking
Cloyster
Mesprit
Tangrowth- Could be moved up to B. Very good at countering multiple threats, almost no physical threats can kill it.
Aggron
Charizard
Poliwrath
Blastoise
Magmortar
Golduck
Typhlosion
Jumpluff
D Rank
Claydol
Drifblim
Nidoqueen
E rank
Venomoth
Jynx
Alternatives
Raichu
Parasect
Pikachu
Swellow is relatively easy to set up, and ohkos so many things that its not even funny. With three layers of spikes down (easy due to froslass), counters are hard to come by. I personally run quick attack over protect, which lets swellow get in a relatively big hit against priority users not using sucker punch, and outright destroys those with it (disables SP).
Mismagius's power is pretty underwhelming, as it fails to OHKO pretty much any special wall. Raikou does subCM a lot better, while the nasty plot set is bait to swellow. Even other pokemon such as scyther (risks speed tie), raikou and dugtrio can outspeed and heavily damage.
Super Rain Dancers
Kabutops
Luddicolo
Suspect Rank
Moltres
Froslass
Raikou
S Rank
Registeel
Venusaur
Rhyperior
MiloticArcanine
A rank
Mismagius
Uxie
Qwilfish (Rain)
Gorebyss (Rain)
Omastar (Rain)
Donphan
Spiritomb
Ambipom
Swellow
B Rank
Scyther
Blaziken
Omastar
Alakazam
Houndoom- Down to C. It can't even 2hko 252 hp/200 spdef milotic without the use of a super effective hidden power. Also countered by arcanine, and too slow to do much.
Absol
Rotom
Umbreon
Hitmontop
Dugtrio
Toxicroak
Clefable
Azumarill
Torterra
Feraligatr
Slowbro
Slowking
C Rank
Altaria
Steelix
Drapion
Sceptile
Chansey
Lanturn
Nidoking
Cloyster
Mesprit
Tangrowth- Could be moved up to B. Very good at countering multiple threats, almost no physical threats can kill it.
Aggron
Charizard
Poliwrath
Blastoise
Magmortar
Golduck
Typhlosion
Jumpluff
D Rank
Claydol
Drifblim
Nidoqueen
E rank
Venomoth
Jynx
Alternatives
Raichu
Parasect
Pikachu
Sweet activity!
Heysup, I am proud that we managed to form a rankings list that is extremely similar to the usage charts. Had I created this topic after the update, It surely been discarded.
The problem with using Swellow is that it's relatively frail, has an extremely short life span, and has a Stealth Rock weakness. Even if you DO remove your opponents Registeel (assuming you switched and U-turned on Registeel, in once + Toxic Orb+Stealth Rocks) You are already at 69%.
Mismagius should never be underestimated. I know, I have underestimated it before and regret it to this day. It makes Chansey cry but setting up on it (sub CM is untouched by Chansey) And you makes dealing with Chansey a none factor. It's also extremely versatile too. Running support sets, Perish Trapping etc.
My own suggestions:
Raichu to E tier. His Nasty plot set is quite powerful, and he can actually get past Registeel (OHKO with 1 layer of spikes from 2+ Focus Blast) and it's sad to see him place with Pikachu and Parasect. J Franky can attest to it's usefulness. (I will expand on this later)
Leafeon in B tier: It's a fantastic sweeper. With an SD under it's belt, you'll be hard pressed to find a counter as Moltres is almost always OHKO by 2+ Return. It's quite fast, (base 95 speed) outspeeds a good portion of the metagame. It's Baton Pass sets are quite useful. Passing SD's to something like Torterra or Rhyperior can be quite scary when the Rock polish. I can also attest that it's physical wall set is quite useful, providing useful wish support and outright wall a good portion of the physical metagame.
Heysup, I am proud that we managed to form a rankings list that is extremely similar to the usage charts. Had I created this topic after the update, It surely been discarded.
It's pretty underrated but C tier?!? It's Perish trapping and Calm mind sets are outclassed by Mismagius and Raikou respectively. Flareblitz's new age *Luna* set is it's best set. Maybe D tier?
The problem with using Swellow is that it's relatively frail, has an extremely short life span, and has a Stealth Rock weakness. Even if you DO remove your opponents Registeel (assuming you switched and U-turned on Registeel, in once + Toxic Orb+Stealth Rocks) You are already at 69%.
Mismagius should never be underestimated. I know, I have underestimated it before and regret it to this day. It makes Chansey cry but setting up on it (sub CM is untouched by Chansey) And you makes dealing with Chansey a none factor. It's also extremely versatile too. Running support sets, Perish Trapping etc.
My own suggestions:
Raichu to E tier. His Nasty plot set is quite powerful, and he can actually get past Registeel (OHKO with 1 layer of spikes from 2+ Focus Blast) and it's sad to see him place with Pikachu and Parasect. J Franky can attest to it's usefulness. (I will expand on this later)
Leafeon in B tier: It's a fantastic sweeper. With an SD under it's belt, you'll be hard pressed to find a counter as Moltres is almost always OHKO by 2+ Return. It's quite fast, (base 95 speed) outspeeds a good portion of the metagame. It's Baton Pass sets are quite useful. Passing SD's to something like Torterra or Rhyperior can be quite scary when the Rock polish. I can also attest that it's physical wall set is quite useful, providing useful wish support and outright wall a good portion of the physical metagame.
Well, the same could be said for moltres. You switch in, fire blast against a milotic, hp grass, then get revenge killed, yet it is S tier.
You should always use a rapid spinner with swellow (personally, I use donphan with assurance to kill ghosts without recoil from BB) So instead of 69%, it will be at 94%.
You should always use a rapid spinner with swellow (personally, I use donphan with assurance to kill ghosts without recoil from BB) So instead of 69%, it will be at 94%.
True. Moltres can reliably heal, far more bulkier and is resistant to most forms of priority.
Swellow is quite powerful, but I feel that S tier should be the best of the best.
(which is why I question why Arcanine is up there. He's good, but S tier material!?!)
U rank:
Kabutops Rain
Ludicolo Rain
Moltres
Froslass
Raikou
S rank:
Registeel
Venusaur
Rhyperior
Milotic
Swellow
A rank:
Qwilfish Rain
Gorebyss Rain
Omastar Rain
Uxie
Mismagius
Arcanine
Donphan
Spiritomb
Ambipom
B rank:
Scyther
Blaziken
Omastar
Alakazam
Absol
Rotom
Umbreon
Leafeon
Hitmontop
Dugtrio
Toxicroak
Clefable
Azumarill
Torterra
Tangrowth
Feraligatr
Slowbro
Slowking
C rank:
Altaria
Steelix
Drapion
Sceptile
Chansey
Lanturn
Nidoking
Cloyster
Mesprit
Aggron
Charizard
Poliwrath
Blastoise
Magmortar
Houndoom
Typhlosion
Jumpluff
Golduck
D rank:
Claydol
Drifblim
Nidoqueen
Jynx
E rank:
Raichu
Venomoth
Alternatives:
Pikachu
Parasect
Kabutops Rain
Ludicolo Rain
Moltres
Froslass
Raikou
S rank:
Registeel
Venusaur
Rhyperior
Milotic
Swellow
A rank:
Qwilfish Rain
Gorebyss Rain
Omastar Rain
Uxie
Mismagius
Arcanine
Donphan
Spiritomb
Ambipom
B rank:
Scyther
Blaziken
Omastar
Alakazam
Absol
Rotom
Umbreon
Leafeon
Hitmontop
Dugtrio
Toxicroak
Clefable
Azumarill
Torterra
Tangrowth
Feraligatr
Slowbro
Slowking
C rank:
Altaria
Steelix
Drapion
Sceptile
Chansey
Lanturn
Nidoking
Cloyster
Mesprit
Aggron
Charizard
Poliwrath
Blastoise
Magmortar
Houndoom
Typhlosion
Jumpluff
Golduck
D rank:
Claydol
Drifblim
Nidoqueen
Jynx
E rank:
Raichu
Venomoth
Alternatives:
Pikachu
Parasect
What the fuck is U Rank?
While Swellow is good, in no way at all is it S Rank. A Rank is fine.
Arcanine should be S Rank. For gods sake, it has the highest BST of any UU or NU besides legendaries and psuedo-legendaries. It has STAB Flare Blitz coming off of an 110 base Attack. It has a base 95 Speed, which is very good for UU, and priority in Extremespeed. It has Morning Sun to heal off Life Orb or Flare Blitz damage, which is pretty reliable in UU with very little other weather (except for rain, but it's still much less common than Sandstorm in OU). It can also go mixed with an 100 base Sp. Atk. It can hit one of the best physical walls in UU, Steelix, with a SE Flare Blitz. In conclusion, Arcanine deserves to be S Rank.
While Swellow is good, in no way at all is it S Rank. A Rank is fine.
Arcanine should be S Rank. For gods sake, it has the highest BST of any UU or NU besides legendaries and psuedo-legendaries. It has STAB Flare Blitz coming off of an 110 base Attack. It has a base 95 Speed, which is very good for UU, and priority in Extremespeed. It has Morning Sun to heal off Life Orb or Flare Blitz damage, which is pretty reliable in UU with very little other weather (except for rain, but it's still much less common than Sandstorm in OU). It can also go mixed with an 100 base Sp. Atk. It can hit one of the best physical walls in UU, Steelix, with a SE Flare Blitz. In conclusion, Arcanine deserves to be S Rank.
No idea...
Meh, my bad on Arcanine. It's extremely versatile in the amount of sets it can run, and is excellent on all kinds of teams. Yes, Offense, Stall and Balance.
I think U tier means Uber tier (it's... kind of wrong for me actually).
PS: i think you should include Skuntank somewhere. It's one of the best Pursuit if not the best users out there, a strong priority attack and Explosion. Nu is filled with Skuntanks everywhere: that's because it's good, i believe.
Maybe D rank.
PS: i think you should include Skuntank somewhere. It's one of the best Pursuit if not the best users out there, a strong priority attack and Explosion. Nu is filled with Skuntanks everywhere: that's because it's good, i believe.
Maybe D rank.
NU=/=UU.
Skuntank is actually pretty awesome so I'll let that slide :P.
Seriously though, if you want a strong pursuiter/priority, Skuntank is the man (Skunk?) for you.
D rank seems fine.