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np: UU - Rain Drops Keep Falling on my Head
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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Why not? It's much easier to set up Stealth Rock then it is Spikes. How many leads/Pokemon are dedicated to this? Uxie, Mesprit, Steelix, Regirock, Registeel, Kabutops etc.. And I can run a spin blocker just like my opponent, so if his Spikes stay up so can my rocks. The point is is that Froslass will have difficulty switching into a spinner after it has suffered SR damage just once.
@Heysup - I think you should write all that in your nomination, or at least your paragraph, because that makes it a much better argument that Froslass is BL. Right now many nominations have said that Froslass can set up Spikes easily (OK) that she can block Rapid Spin (obviously, she's a Ghost), that Spikes makes some sweepers that much harder to handle (yes, same with all entry hazards), and so on. But they haven't addressed the counterarguments. Saying you can Taunt Foresight is one such example, because it implies that for some reason the only thing Hitmontop can do to Froslass is Foresight -> Rapid Spin, except of course Hitmontop can do other things like Stone Edge and Bullet Punch.
Like I said I still think Froslass isn't BL, but then it's up to the voters to decide.
PS: I think Thund91 makes very good points.
PPS: LO Ambipom with Pursuit does beat Froslass, I do think. I haven't run the calcs, but it does have Taunt to stop Spikes from getting up as well as stop Froslass from using Pain Split. Right?
Er it's support Venusaur, so it's not going to get OHKO'ed. And although it's not very effective, if you've used it Raikou will be forced out eventually (that's assuming you don't get fully swept first) and some of your Pokemon might now be able to avoid 2HKOes because of it. Not saying that Leech Seed is the be-all-end-all counter to Raikou, but it's better than nothing.
I say no, because if your argument applied before the metagame shifted towards Venusaur, and the metagame shifts towards Venusaur anyway, then the only logical conclusion would be that most people don't think your argument applied and weren't afraid of using Venusaur even though it ostensibly leaves a Froslass weakness. I think what you're saying looks pretty inconsistent, to be honest.
@Leman - That's not the point (it's also debatable, but I won't do it here). It's that Moltres doesn't have the highest special attack in the tier. It may be the strongest special attacker, but it doesn't have the highest special attack.
Like I said I still think Froslass isn't BL, but then it's up to the voters to decide.
PS: I think Thund91 makes very good points.
PPS: LO Ambipom with Pursuit does beat Froslass, I do think. I haven't run the calcs, but it does have Taunt to stop Spikes from getting up as well as stop Froslass from using Pain Split. Right?
Heysup said:
Er it's support Venusaur, so it's not going to get OHKO'ed. And although it's not very effective, if you've used it Raikou will be forced out eventually (that's assuming you don't get fully swept first) and some of your Pokemon might now be able to avoid 2HKOes because of it. Not saying that Leech Seed is the be-all-end-all counter to Raikou, but it's better than nothing.
Heysup said:
I say no, because if your argument applied before the metagame shifted towards Venusaur, and the metagame shifts towards Venusaur anyway, then the only logical conclusion would be that most people don't think your argument applied and weren't afraid of using Venusaur even though it ostensibly leaves a Froslass weakness. I think what you're saying looks pretty inconsistent, to be honest.
@Leman - That's not the point (it's also debatable, but I won't do it here). It's that Moltres doesn't have the highest special attack in the tier. It may be the strongest special attacker, but it doesn't have the highest special attack.
Technitop that pack Rapid Spin usually also use Pursuit so they can do something if the ghost switch in.Most people don't predict a spin coming though if they see top lack intimidate.I've tested this kind of Technitop and it work reasonably well for me (although a spin cost LO damage...)
But its Fire Blast isn't more powerful than Glacion's Blizzard or Typhlosion's Eruption. If you want to get pedantic, it knows Overheat, but a low-HP Typhlosion beats that out too. That's just getting stupid, though. Just say "one of the best".
I probably should have said reliable, but that's debatable too, and its a technicality that doesn't really matter.
(@ bolded: I don't mean to act like a dick/MoP, but I just went like 6-0 against you with my Bulky Froslass team yesterday, assuming you are Chocolate Lopunny. It was with Dekzeh watching if you remember.)
Anyway, by the time you'd have managed to get your Spinner in for the what, 3rd time (?), it's far too late. Common bulky Rapid Spinners cannot really afford to to switch into any of the common Spikes abusers (as I outlined in another section in my paragraphs). None of them have recovery, you're only going to be able to check/counter Moltres so many times (read: once at best) before you cannot even switch it in anymore.
Remember, every time your Spinner fails, you get that much closer to losing.
"OMG SUPER EFFECTIVE MOVE IT MUST LIKE OHKO OR SOME SHIT!!"
34.4% - 40.8% without Life Orb. Pain Split heals though it even with Life Orb (you just need to use Pain Split on the first turn which is easy because you can tell if it has Bullet Punch by whether or not it has a Life Orb), but Life Orb Spinners definitely don't last very long.
The irony here, is that you've seen me use Head Smash Donphan to beat Froslass.
Have you missed the calculations? Stone Edge does not OHKO. Stone Edge + Bullet Punch - I laughed at how stupid this is getting when I considered this possibility - is not going to help you much because you lose an immense amount of Pokemon that you force out. Good job, you can now take out Froslass with perfect prediction, but sadly you cannot even get the chance to do so because you no longer force any Pokemon out. If the Rapid Spinner manages to Spin as it faints, and Froslass is healthy, those Spikes are coming right back up and you know it.
Now LO Ambipom runs Taunt? LO Taunt Fake Out Pursuit and U-turn. That's going to work (not really).
My point was that if you let Raikou set up Calm Minds with the reasoning "Oh I hit it with Leech Seed I'm ok now", you're still going to lose because Raikou will still beat Venusaur and will only take Life Orb damage as it OHKOes your Pokemon.
I will give you that it helps a bit, and is better than nothing, but it is no way stopping Raikou from demolishing your team.
Banedon said:
So you're going to ignore my post completely and do the same thing that I explained was not my argument. Maybe you just didn't get it, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
Let me make this as simple as possible:
That if you assume Froslass was able to set up Spikes before, it is still able to now because we just have more Venusaur (a Pokemon that Froslass sets up on quite easily).
X sets up Spikes easily on Y but not on Z in one metagame. In the next metagame, there are far more Y's then any Z's. Therefore, by simple logic, in the second metagame X can set up Spikes > the amount it set up in the first metagame.
Even if you want to go down your current path of "misunderstanding" the reason why I brought this up, you're metagame analysis is still flawed because you leave out the possibility that Venusaur is needed to check Pokemon like Raikou. That's why I'm not saying anything about the reasons why the metagame changed, but what happens now that it has.
I really needed to learn how to multi-quote. <_<
@Heysup:Why would you be a dick if you said that?? Lmao anyways yes I am Chocolate Lopunny and that's my alt where I use my fun teams + troll ubers (and it still wins most of the time, which depresses me). My main team can rip through Prolass but the Suicide Lead can get annoying. And you were one of the people who used Head Smash Donphan?? Lmfao I don't remember but it was used against me once and I was like O_o. And it seems I've made a mistake, Froslass would have 62% left not 56%.
Anyways my spinner didn't have to switch in 3 times. It only had to switch in once. I'm probably explaining it in a confusing way, but it's supposed to go down like this:
Froslass switches into something it can set up against easily, it takes SR damage and uses Spikes on the switch. I send in my counter this turn which forces it out. You have one layer. Now when I switch my spinner in and Froslass wants to switch in it's going to eat SR damage again (and assuming lefties, it'd be left with 62%) AND have to take the hit. At that point Stone Edge/Assurance will do enough to finish it off. And Assurance does KO, unless I did the damage calc incorrectly. So yes, Froslass users can enjoy switching into people who spam Rapid Spin but I'd like to think there are at least a few people out there who don't play like robots.
@Heysup:Why would you be a dick if you said that?? Lmao anyways yes I am Chocolate Lopunny and that's my alt where I use my fun teams + troll ubers (and it still wins most of the time, which depresses me). My main team can rip through Prolass but the Suicide Lead can get annoying. And you were one of the people who used Head Smash Donphan?? Lmfao I don't remember but it was used against me once and I was like O_o. And it seems I've made a mistake, Froslass would have 62% left not 56%.
Anyways my spinner didn't have to switch in 3 times. It only had to switch in once. I'm probably explaining it in a confusing way, but it's supposed to go down like this:
Froslass switches into something it can set up against easily, it takes SR damage and uses Spikes on the switch. I send in my counter this turn which forces it out. You have one layer. Now when I switch my spinner in and Froslass wants to switch in it's going to eat SR damage again (and assuming lefties, it'd be left with 62%) AND have to take the hit. At that point Stone Edge/Assurance will do enough to finish it off. And Assurance does KO, unless I did the damage calc incorrectly. So yes, Froslass users can enjoy switching into people who spam Rapid Spin but I'd like to think there are at least a few people out there who don't play like robots.
Proslass isn't even it's most deadly set. Try taking the thing down in Hail and to multi-quote I just open multiple tabs with the quote and copy and paste it
Just about Raikou, who's tried out Regice as a counter?? A +1 LO Timid Raikou's Thunderbolt doesn't 2HKO after SR if Regice has Leftovers. Regice can also use Seismic Toss to stop Subbers and/or Thunder Wave to stop pure attacking Raikou. Unlike Registeel and Chansey, Regice isn't going to be easily removed with Dugtrio.
You're right, Duggy doesn't eliminate him. The rest of the tier does.
I played with a sweeper Regice for a bit. You can't switch in, and if it gets an CMs in, you're kinda screwed. Might work better running toxic or whatever, but the only reason to run Regice in the first place is to get a Rock Polish off, grab a couple boosts with Charge Beam, then laugh with your opponent as you realize that Regi took out half his team.
Which is awesome when it happens, because it very rarely does.
Which is awesome when it happens, because it very rarely does.
What's your Spinner coming in on? I mean, it's not like Donphan can really come in on the most common Spikes abusers such as Moltres.
And, since you're using Donphan, will Stealth Rock even be up if you don't come in and take damage? See without Donphan, this example doesn't work out because Hitmontop and Blastoise don't KO, but clearly it is a double-edged sword. Donphan will have to set up Stealth Rock at some point and take Spikes damage (and then you're giving Froslass another switch-in on Stealth Rock, so it can set up even another layer). So you're really taking more damage then you seem to be including in your example.
I guess you don't "need" to run Stealth Rock on Donphan, but my first point still applies: Donphan isn't that easy to bring in against offense, especially SpikeStack offense.
On an unrelated note: I would lol if I saw a Rock Polish Psych Up Regice for fucking with Raikou.
Lol I'm doing this to help you improve your nominations / paragraphs, if you think I shouldn't, or if you think I'm not helping, that's fine with me. Just say so and I'll stop posting on this.
If X sets up Spikes on Y but not on Z in one metagame, and in the next there are far more Y's, that yes, it means that in the second metagame X sets up spikes much more often / reliably than in the first. But it also means that the second metagame doesn't perceive X (or Spikes) to be dangerous, because they didn't mind the fact that X sets up Spikes more reliably and continue to use more Y's than Z's.
Let me try rephrasing. Say X sets up Spikes on Y but not on Z, and that the Spikes, once they get up, often leads to the player using X winning. Logically then, stopping X from setting up Spikes is an important goal. However, the metagame continues to see far more Y's than Z's. What does that imply? It seems pretty clear to me that the players in the metagame don't perceive X to be enough of a threat to run more Z's. More concrete example: Linoone sets up on Froslass. If Linoone sets up, it often leads to the player using Linoone winning. Logically then, stopping Linoone from setting up is an important goal. However, the metagame continues to see plenty of Froslasses. If we apply your argument, then the fact that Linoone sets up on Froslass, coupled with the fact that there are lots of Froslasses in the metagame, proves that Linoone is BL. Of course Linoone also sets up on some Venusaur sets (assuming team support, sleep clause in effect, etc), and there are other dangerous sweepers that set up on Froslass as well (e.g. Raikou), so the argument can be extended. Obviously Linoone isn't BL, so there's some other factor I think you should mention.
You do address what this line of reasoning is all about in the last paragraph of your post, but I think not only do you need to expand on it more in your nomination / paragraph, you also need to consider some implications from saying that Venusaur's needed to check Raikou. If you claim that Venusaur is needed to check Raikou and therefore sees more use even though it's weak to Froslass, you'd be implying that Raikou is more worthy of BL status than Froslass, because leaving a weakness to Raikou (by not using Venusaur) is more dangerous than leaving a weakness to Froslass (by using Venusaur). You'd also be implying that if Raikou gets sent to BL but Froslass stays, there will be less Venusaurs around. Unfortunately we don't have a metagame to test this, so I can't comment further.
I'm not arguing that Froslass isn't BL here, I'm arguing that logically speaking your nomination leaves flaws. If you'd rather argue that Froslass is BL, then we should probably use the Froslass thread.
He stops Raikou cold. But think about it. If SR are in play, Regice loses about 25% of it's HP unpon switching it.
An un-boosted T-bolt deals about 30% to standard Regice. (Less if they actually invest in SpD)
Anywho, Raikou is forced to switch while I bring out my Regice counter.
If I force out Regice, out, it can't even counter Raikou anymore because it's at 20%. (assuming SR)
This is why Regice fails as a wall. (No healing too?!?) and why I think Nintendo NEEDS TO BUFF ICE TYPES DEFENSIVELY!!!
See, I was assuming you were genuinely misunderstanding me but I can't really tell now.
Banedon said:
The bolded is literally the only relevant part of your post. I never once said, "Froslass is causing the metagame shift", in fact I specifically said that it wasn't. Yet, you keep on going on about how the metagame has changed because people don't think Froslass is a threat. Do you genuinely not understand how your responses to of my one sentence in my nomination is not relevant? If I thought this was a reason for Froslass being BL, I would have used it. But I don't, because it isn't, and therefore I only said "Froslass can still do what it could before".
So if you truly want to help, go ahead, but seriously stop taking my sentence out of context and analyzing it out of context while responding with even more irrelevant "attacks" on my non-existent argument. If you want to help, this is not how you do it.
Thanks :)
Erazor said:
It was explained to me, by Reach, that if you were one of the people who has thought Raikou to be BL all along you can actually explain why you think the UU voters have made a mistake or overlooked something.
Yeah, and it's probably a result of the Torterra spike. Thankfully, I planned ahead and brought a Moltres along with Torterra. They make really good partners, actually. 
Yup. I use houndoom with weezing, which is nice for firing off powerful fire blasts and whatnot.
Three have also been an increase in hitmonlee usage i have found
All Pokemon which are severely underrated....Glad people have finally seen the light. :)
Luckily while I was testing SubSeed Torterra for QC I noticed Weezing everywhere. Subbed on a Weezing's WoW like 9 times in 20 matches and proceeded to stall it out heh.
Torterra is really underrated, especially the SubSeed set and the Sub + 3 Attack set. Of course, the RP set is deadly as ever. I do think Rhyperior is a better RPer though.
Base 56 Speed is actually a pretty convenient number.
Torterra is really underrated, especially the SubSeed set and the Sub + 3 Attack set. Of course, the RP set is deadly as ever. I do think Rhyperior is a better RPer though.
Base 56 Speed is actually a pretty convenient number.
I never got why people Will-O-Wisp when you're better off just Flamethrowering or Fire Blasting threats like Torterra. Oh well.
Speaking of Torterra, I and a few others would talk about him ever since Donphan and Dugtrio dropped, but it would always be ignored. How many months has it been??? Lol well better late then never.
Also a tip for everyone out there that continues to Aerial Ace Venusaur/Hariyama/Hitmontop with Dugtrio, Earthquake does more! :/
If Froslass can still do what it could before, and if Froslass setting up Spikes is so dangerous, why hasn't the metagame evolved to stop Froslass from setting up Spikes?
Example: if Lucario drops to UU from OU, the metagame will shift and jerk violently between using Lucario and using Lucario counters. It will, because you either do it or die. I've already seen something similar happen once actually, in the Pokemon TCG. There was one point when Neo Genesis Feraligatr was THE dominant archetype in the game, and the metagame shifted to decks that are based around Feraligatr, and decks that are built to counter Feraligatr. It's not like Froslass has no counters; it's not like there aren't Pokemon that can set up on Froslass / stop Froslass from setting up. If Froslass is so dangerous, why hasn't the metagame evolved to stop Froslass from setting up Spikes?
I think you're better off leaving that line out of the nomination entirely. If I'm still missing the point, then yes I'm not understanding what you're talking about, so you might want to edit your nomination to be clearer.
@PK Gaming - not going to happen to be honest, Ice simply isn't cut out to be a defensive type. Compare Ice to Steel for example ... Steel has so many resistances, what does Ice have? 1 resist and 4 weaknesses? How do you make a good wall out of that?
It has. Why do your think Pokemon like Kabutops, Cloyster, Hariyama, Spiritomb, Moltres, Scarf Venusaur hell even Sneasel is being used as a lead now?? To prevent Froslass spamming Spikes everywhere. Yet she still manages to get at least 2 layers up a lot of the time, which possibly indicates that she's probably a little too good for this metagame.
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