The difference with Biberal is nearly unresisted STABS and the ability to, with 1 Agility and 1 SD, get 4+ attack and speed. Which is a lot, even considering the low BST.
-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
NU Discussion Thread (Mark II)
- Thread starter twash
- Start date
- Status
I meant Sparce especially because of Serene Grace. But yeah you're pretty much right.
Well skuntank is more threatening to espeon than cacturne, so hp ground> signal beam almost always. If it wants to run both, than it has to choose between calm mind and substitute and to sweep it generally needs both of those moves.
Yeah, the best Espeon is Sub+3 attacks Espeon with Spikes support, but without it it has major trouble with slowking. Obviously, spikes are almost unbearably annoying to set up in NU, but when you can (CCAT is working on it) this thing is the best sweeper in the whole tier, requiring 1/2 turn of set up (1/2 turn is defined as a turn that can be used to set up or just attack outright, and still be effective either way) Though sub is generally the best option.
So, basically, if Espeon lacks HP Ground, Skuntank can check it. If it lacks Signal Beam, Cacturne can check it.
Cacturne's a major threat to Espeon. It can't hurt it without Signal Beam, and is OHKO'ed. If it swithes out, it risks Cacturne getting a Swords Dance under it's belt, and THAT will be GG right there, because if hardly anything [In my experiance] can take Victreebel's +2 Sucker Punch, with STAB, it'll decimate most of the teir. Cacturne's as dangerous, if not more, against Espeon, than Skuntank. Sure, no Persuit, but Espeon won't switch out for fear of Cacturne getting a sub up, or an SD.
Now we need to find something that can check a Sub 3 Attack set with Signal Beam and HP Ground...
Cacturne's a major threat to Espeon. It can't hurt it without Signal Beam, and is OHKO'ed. If it swithes out, it risks Cacturne getting a Swords Dance under it's belt, and THAT will be GG right there, because if hardly anything [In my experiance] can take Victreebel's +2 Sucker Punch, with STAB, it'll decimate most of the teir. Cacturne's as dangerous, if not more, against Espeon, than Skuntank. Sure, no Persuit, but Espeon won't switch out for fear of Cacturne getting a sub up, or an SD.
Now we need to find something that can check a Sub 3 Attack set with Signal Beam and HP Ground...
No wait, Wormadam-S. Or special defensive Xatu / Sableye. Or Lickilicky/Munchlax.
Honestly, everyone knows that Espeon is capable of being walled by walls. But I think Raikaria was looking for something more offensive in the Skuntank or Cacturne mold that can either dispatch Espeon with ease or take advantage of it by setting up and sweeping, thus turning it into fodder. Walls obviously can't do that, and they have no use on offense teams anyway.
That's the thing about Sub + 3 Attacks Espeon. Lacking a way to boost or the destructive power of Specs, it can even be walled by Slowking. This is why Sub + 3 Espy needs hazard support. IMO, Sub + 3 and CM + 3 are the best sets.
The problem with Cacturne is that, unlike Victreebel, it is weak to Bug and Fighting, so Primeape easily revenges it.
The problem with Cacturne is that, unlike Victreebel, it is weak to Bug and Fighting, so Primeape easily revenges it.
Yeah I agree people assume Regive just sits there...Awhile ago a ran a simple Max HP Max S.Attack set with BoltBeam, T-Wave, and Explosion. Was still bulky enough to switch in on most Special threats(not fire types obviously), and then could cause some serious damage or paralyze a threat. No recovery was fine cause I didn't actually play him as a wall, but as bulky attacker instead.
Primpare Revenge kills are the reason why I run Subsitute on my Cacturne.
Anyway, I've managed to get a few games in, albeit, against... less stanard teams [No Skuntank or Espeon, or Magmortar or Slowking... but I did run into Miltank]
My team needs a few tweaks, my Ampherous I was using generally just dies, aheiving nothing.
Despite this, I've been winning quite a few games. And noticed a few things:
1: The metagame is very flying-weak. My Specszard ran through a team because they failed to get SR down, their priority couldn't kill me fast enough [Hitmonchan and Sneasel], and their whole team either couldn't hurt 'Zard, or was OHKO'ed by Air Slash.
To put the teir's flying weakness into perspective, the most common Flying Resist is Manetric, sitting at #23 in useage. This makes Air Slash a brilliant move to just spam with Specszard. Also makes Dordio's Flying-type all the more attractive for cleaning.
2: Cacturne is powerful, provided it sets up. However, THAT'S the hard bit.
3: Dodrio is good at late-game cleaning, although, I'm more using it to punch holes in defences, with a Life-Orbed STAB Brave Bird, which takes about 70~80% off from even Miltank. I might change BB to Drill Peck to be able to clean better without killing myself. As mentioned, the meta being Flying-weak [I CANNOT get over that fact] means Dodrio can really tear stuff up.
I really do not understand how In March, Drodrio only have 1.47% useage.
Anyway, I've managed to get a few games in, albeit, against... less stanard teams [No Skuntank or Espeon, or Magmortar or Slowking... but I did run into Miltank]
My team needs a few tweaks, my Ampherous I was using generally just dies, aheiving nothing.
Despite this, I've been winning quite a few games. And noticed a few things:
1: The metagame is very flying-weak. My Specszard ran through a team because they failed to get SR down, their priority couldn't kill me fast enough [Hitmonchan and Sneasel], and their whole team either couldn't hurt 'Zard, or was OHKO'ed by Air Slash.
To put the teir's flying weakness into perspective, the most common Flying Resist is Manetric, sitting at #23 in useage. This makes Air Slash a brilliant move to just spam with Specszard. Also makes Dordio's Flying-type all the more attractive for cleaning.
2: Cacturne is powerful, provided it sets up. However, THAT'S the hard bit.
3: Dodrio is good at late-game cleaning, although, I'm more using it to punch holes in defences, with a Life-Orbed STAB Brave Bird, which takes about 70~80% off from even Miltank. I might change BB to Drill Peck to be able to clean better without killing myself. As mentioned, the meta being Flying-weak [I CANNOT get over that fact] means Dodrio can really tear stuff up.
I really do not understand how In March, Drodrio only have 1.47% useage.
Well... too bad only 2 pokes can use Brave Bird here in NU (Dodrio and Pidgeot).
And there's only 2 Air Slash users with decent sp.atk (Charizard and... Mothim. Maybe Solar Power Tropius as well).
Ok, it's little, but Dodrio is enough to tear some teams apart.
And Pidgeot still has U-Turn.
I want some opinions on this poke:
Tropius. We can do much things with it.
Solar Power Leaf Storm/Air Slash
Chlorophyll SD
DD Tropius
Leech Seed Tropius (and with Fly to stall a little more).
Curse Tropius
As well as having decent/good defenisve stats.
And there's only 2 Air Slash users with decent sp.atk (Charizard and... Mothim. Maybe Solar Power Tropius as well).
Ok, it's little, but Dodrio is enough to tear some teams apart.
And Pidgeot still has U-Turn.
I want some opinions on this poke:
Tropius. We can do much things with it.
Solar Power Leaf Storm/Air Slash
Chlorophyll SD
DD Tropius
Leech Seed Tropius (and with Fly to stall a little more).
Curse Tropius
As well as having decent/good defenisve stats.
The same reason why Raichu is 81, miles behind Manectric. Ignore them, you'll just have to brat them down until they start using other pokemon. NU teams aren't even full teams, it's like 5+ Skuntank.
Just a few things.
-Magneton 4X resists you so be careful.
-Ampharos isn't that good tbh. It's far to slow and using something like BoahChu(Raichu) is often the preffered route.
Ampharos is, like i said a time ago:
-A slow, bulky hard hitter (ideal for Specs/LOwith Wish support , not for sweeping... )
-A tank that abuses para from many ways (Static, Discharge or Thunder Wave).
If you use it as a boah or something, you're doing it wrong IMO.
It's a somewhat easy poke to use. If you want something that hits really hard or try and paralize as many threats from many possible ways, Ampharos is your poke.
Now i want some opinions on Tropius... please?
-A slow, bulky hard hitter (ideal for Specs/LOwith Wish support , not for sweeping... )
-A tank that abuses para from many ways (Static, Discharge or Thunder Wave).
If you use it as a boah or something, you're doing it wrong IMO.
It's a somewhat easy poke to use. If you want something that hits really hard or try and paralize as many threats from many possible ways, Ampharos is your poke.
Now i want some opinions on Tropius... please?
Do you ever shut up about Raichu? It's your favourite Pokemon; we get it. Besides, Manectric is used more because it's better. Simple.
Raichu sucks. Get that through your head. Jesus every single goddam post you post is a spamfest of Raichu fanboyness. >_>
Ampharos and Raichu play differently. Ampharos is a bulky attacker, meaning its gonna be taking a hit (and it can do that). I'd much rather use Ampharos as a wall breaker since it can switch into things and then proceed to beat all the walls in the tier. (Though I'd much rather use Magmortar or something instead) Speed doesn't matter, since Ampharos is still faster than them anyways. Raichu fails at beating some bulky that it doesn't have an SE attack again and can't 2HKO since it gets buttraped if it takes an attack. Raichu is a bad Manetric with NP and Encore, get over it.
Well...its special sets are outclassed by every Chlorophyll Pokemon out there (even Sunflora) so it can go physical with SwordsDance and LeafBlade. No other Grass-type in NU can use that set as good. Victreebel can use that set but it lacks good physical moves so Tropius stands on top. It gets Earthquake and AerialAce so it can hurt an amount of Pokemon.
Dodrio's LO Brave Bird to Max/Max Impish Miltank: 44.2% - 52%. No 2HKO - even with Stealth Rock, you're looking at a pretty low chance accounting for Leftovers recovery (not to mention that you're going to be pretty much KOing yourself with recoil in the process.
Swords Dance Victreebel is really strong in Sun - it gets Sucker Punch, which is something.
Swords Dance Victreebel is really strong in Sun - it gets Sucker Punch, which is something.
Oh yeah? If that's true how come I've beaten you nearly every time we've played? I was just reffering to Ampharos on general offense. Speed does matter when you face something like Sandslash who is FASTER. Base 55 speed is TERRIBLE for a wall breaker, i'm sorry but that's true. I've used Ampharos (unlike you who's never even touched Raichu before) It's got bulk and power, but it's speed is it's greatest downfall. It's sad when you go AFTER the walls you are supposed to break. (I think the only walls it outspeeds are Dusclops and Slowking)
It seems to me that your just making some stuff about Raichu on the second part. Care to be specific? Oh and NP and Encore are pretty powerful moves, but Raichu still has access to Volt Tackle and Grass Knot too allowing him to play more roles. (Physical, special support)
Manetric is often reduced to being choiced in some way because it's boosting sets suck when compared to Raichu's (Charge beam<Nasty plot)
Troll-less.
No, it's used more because it's more popular. Raichu is a relatively unknown pokemon in the NU community. People underestimate it all of the time, and (even though taking advantage of that is fun) it's get boring from time to time.
And yeah you've pretty much declared:
For the record, I have used Encore/NP/Thunderbolt/GK Raichu. I find that Encore is too predictable to be used viably. It gives too many switches. I also hated Charziard speed ties and got pissed off by being walled by anything with decent SDef, even after an NP. (Crap like Gardevoir and Magneton) With Manetic I threatened Switcheroo. I scrapped the team cause it was bad. I think I'll try again, except with sub>Encore this time.
Yeah, because you haven't. *points to sig* I need to update that.
Troll-less.
@Tropius: I think Exegutor, or even Vileplume or Shiftry are just better, when it comes to sun sweeping. Tropius's offensive stats are really bad. I think SD/EQ/LeafBlade/Synthesis in the sun with Solar Power and Leftovers might be pretty good. Nothing else does the bulky Physical sun attacker better. Thats a pretty specific niche though, lol.
Yeah, because you haven't. *points to sig* I need to update that.
162 HP / 252 SAtk / 84 Spd Modest gets Ampharos faster than every wall in the tier besides Miltank and Gardevoir. Don't counter this by telling me that it fails because it can't outspeed crap like Xatu. And then there's the fact that Magmortar and Medicham are better than both.
SubCharge is pretty rape actually. Manetric is incredibly dangerous to begin with because of its excellent coverage (which is why it doesn't need to use gimmicks like Focus Blast and Volt Tackle). When it has a chance to beat Pokemon like ScarfApe, it just gets better. You need a Quagsire-lure though. EBelt Charizard works. Or even LO. (If I had a nickel for every time someone revenged Charizard with Quagsire, after they knew it had an LO and then got raped by HP Grass, I'd have enough for a decent internet connection by now)
Troll-less.
@Tropius: I think Exegutor, or even Vileplume or Shiftry are just better, when it comes to sun sweeping. Tropius's offensive stats are really bad. I think SD/EQ/LeafBlade/Synthesis in the sun with Solar Power and Leftovers might be pretty good. Nothing else does the bulky Physical sun attacker better. Thats a pretty specific niche though, lol.
Sadly, Solar Power only effects Special Attack, so it still isn't that good...
Oh. I guess Chlorophyll will have to do. Tropius's Speed is pitiful though. It would be hard getting the decent bulk and speed the to be a threat. I guess you can go for 104 HP / 252 Atk / 152 Spd to beat Espeon, but thats really slow for a Chllorophyller.
(on mobile)
Isn't sub charge applicable to Raichu? Instead of CB you gain Nasty Plot. (I can see Sub/NP/Grass Knot or HP iceb/T-Bolt working)
Excellent coverage my ass. You waste coverage with Charge beam and sub, You NEED T-bolt and you need to rely one extra move (flamethrower) thats hardly excellent. Sub charge on someyhing as frail as Manectric doesn't impress. I'd much rather use Specs for more reliability and coverage.
Raichu outspeeds most Charizards (most run neutral) and Typhlosion is usually scarfed. Other than that Raichu's inferior speed (when compared to Manectric) is downplayed.
Also gimme a break. Magneton is OHKO by 2+ T-bolt with SR, and Gardy is 2HKO. Unlike Manectric Raichu has to SpD to take one psychic.
My bad on the Ampharos but I used the subpunch set.
Your calling VT and Focus Blast gimmicks?
Revenging a special fire type with Quagsire is stupid. Unless they are choiced, 99% of tge time tgey have HP grass. Now beating down Quagsire with Grass Knot is priceless.
And I HAVE beaten you. I wouldn't have mistaken such an easy name.(I did lose once)
- Status