That's more because Specszard is just freaking powerful, and everyone thinks that Flamethrower is it's main attack. (Hint hint Charizard should always lead with Airslash or Sub if it is BD.). And because of the (almost broken) overpoweredness that Specs Overheat has. (Mother of GOD that attack hurts.)
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NU Discussion Thread (Mark II)
- Thread starter twash
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That's more because Specszard is just freaking powerful, and everyone thinks that Flamethrower is it's main attack. (Hint hint Charizard should always lead with Airslash or Sub if it is BD.). And because of the (almost broken) overpoweredness that Specs Overheat has. (Mother of GOD that attack hurts.)
Manetric does the subcharge better, since it has higher SAtk and Speed. I always expected Thunderbolt to fail to 2HKO so I never risked it. =/ It also fails to 2HKO bulky Gardevoir most of the time. Besides the fact that 2HKOs aren't good enough when it can just Paralyze you, and when setting up is incredibly difficult, and the two-move coverage he gets is sorta awful. Its not going to ever switch in to Manetric though, for fear of Switcheroo.
Charizard allways runs + Spd. There are also Ninetales, Miltank, Entei, Regigigas and Dodrio to worry about. Yes, all of those are common. And there's Rapidash that Manetric ties with. Five pretty important Pokemon.
And yes, they are gimmicks. Why would I use either? Miltank gets beaten by Thunderbolt or Speed ties, and Volt Tackle hits water types....which you already beat.
You talked about SubCharge. 4-Attacks LO/Specs gets excellent coverage. SubCharge is very good too, since Flamer beats most Ground types that HP Grass would, except Quaggy, and that's still good. Raichu gets to pick between Quagsire and Grass types.
Charizard allways runs + Spd. There are also Ninetales, Miltank, Entei, Regigigas and Dodrio to worry about. Yes, all of those are common. And there's Rapidash that Manetric ties with. Five pretty important Pokemon.
And yes, they are gimmicks. Why would I use either? Miltank gets beaten by Thunderbolt or Speed ties, and Volt Tackle hits water types....which you already beat.
You talked about SubCharge. 4-Attacks LO/Specs gets excellent coverage. SubCharge is very good too, since Flamer beats most Ground types that HP Grass would, except Quaggy, and that's still good. Raichu gets to pick between Quagsire and Grass types.
Well sure, he does Sub charge better but who is he going to setup on? Bulky waters?!? This is why Sub Charge sucks. 1+ Manectric is just as easily countered by pokemon who counter 2+ Raichu. CB isn't reliable and Manectric can't just sit there and CB. I'd rather use subNP Raichu who boasts a lot more power and beats grounds with Grass Knot. (Flamethrower DOESN'T beat grounds, especially if you haven't boosted)
Raichu's coverage is a lot better than Manectric. You state that Gardy can't switch into Manectric? She can't always switch into Raichu either on the account that Raichu might be physical. (Volt Tackle is a clean OHKO)
Quagsire also laughs at you.
Are you joking? Regigigas/Miltank/Entei alnost NEVER run max speed. And Dodrio and Ninetails are nowhere near common.
Volt Tackle is for physical Raichu (something Manectric can't do) and phys Raichu has entirely different counters.
The point is, I overestimate Raichu, you underestimate it. We need to find some middle ground here.
Also a good amount of pros (Manectryic being dangerous behind a sub) and cons (walled by Gardy and friends)is applicable to Raichu. This is why running the 2 of them together (like double fighting) is a good idea.
The beauty of SubCharge is that you do set up on shit. To beat it, I'll switch shit like Sandslash into Manetric's Thunderbolt and force it out, eventually sacing something o get a faster Pokemon in, or forcing it to Switcheroo and KO it after an attack. That being said, if I switch Sandslash into SubCharge Manetric, it gets a sub. Then it notices that the Manetric is not Choiced, and then CAN hit it for SE damage. It switches out to say Gardevoir. It gets hit by Charge Beam, and SAtk rises. Now you are free to 2HKO with Charge Beam + Thunderbolt, getting to +2. Or, you can be risky, and try to predict statuses and set up another sub. Revenges something, sets up a sub, and then is forced to NP to get decent power, while something breaks it sub and proceeds to kill it next turn. Basically, you know that Raichu is Encore or Sub + NP becuase Manetric does everything else better, and physical is poor. (Honestly I don't think I can think of a physical wall that you don't get utterly raped by) Manetric sets up SubCharge excellently, because its uncommon. And it works well on rematches too, meaning its not a gimmick.
FYI +1 Flamethrower hurts Grounds more than +0 HP Grass. (slightly more, but yeah)
I'll ignore the Quagsire thing, since I gave you that and explained that it needs to be removed.
Ninetales is common, and Dodrio is sure to be common. Were you paying attention at all last couple pages?
And if I were to run double Electric, I'd use SubMagneton > Raichu.
FYI +1 Flamethrower hurts Grounds more than +0 HP Grass. (slightly more, but yeah)
I'll ignore the Quagsire thing, since I gave you that and explained that it needs to be removed.
Ninetales is common, and Dodrio is sure to be common. Were you paying attention at all last couple pages?
And if I were to run double Electric, I'd use SubMagneton > Raichu.
What are you talking about? Sandslash should never switch out from sub manectric because it DOESN't carry a SE attack. Hell, Sandslash is never OHKO by anything Manectric throws at it. Your strat still isn't impressive my any means because once I realize your subcharge, your plan doesn't work. Your hypothetical situation is to advantageous for Manectric.
Physical Raichu IS good. It has the surprise factor (like you outline) and is only stop by Sandskash or Quagsire. IfbRaichu runs Grass knot (boah style) he wins
Ah, that explains why, I checked with the person I played after reading this post, and the Miltank wasn't Max/Max. It was a Cursetank, and thus, ran Sp.Def, to aid in taking Special Hits.
52% with SR is a VERY slim chance of a 2HKO with rocks down. It's so small it's negligable, however, you'd basically need max damage twice.
Anyway, played a bit more with my team, and due to the large amount of Mid-Game SR users, I might change one of my team for Sandslash, probobly Gligar. Having a spinner makes Floatzel less needed as well.
I know Swords Dannce Victreebel is strong, go back in the thread, and you'll see me raving about it, and how Skuntank was basically the only counter, back at the start. Swords Dance Cacturne, however, has a far stronger Sucker Punch, and can switch in on Espeon. Encore is fun too, but Victreebel gets that as well.
Both Victreebel and Cacturne have pros and cons. Victreebel fairs better against Fighting-types, and on Sun teams. It also has Sleep Powder. Back in the day, STAB Sludge Bomb, even with 0 EV's [Albeit, with Life Orb] was a OHKO on Leafeon as well, although it was more common on Sunny Day sets. Victreebel also has Leaf Blade, which is better than Seed Bomb.
Cacturne has STAB on Sucker Punch, fairs better against Skuntank and Espeon, and, as we all know, is a pain on Sand teams.
It's really down to what you want to handle better, and the rest of your team. My team lacks a Psychic resist, so I use Cacturne. I also don't want be to revenged by Skuntank every single time.
I've been seeing more Dodrio recently. Aside from my own. Most are Choice Band right now, by the looks of things.
A combination of the fact that the Metagame is Flying-weak, Dodrio's high Attack and Speed, and the fact it seems to be commonly Banded, makes Persuit very useful on Life Orb sets. I've scored a fair few kills on things which see Dodrio, and switch out.
Also, although I'm unsure about the EV's of the Sandslash, Return 2HKO's it, meaning Sandslash can't switch in, and Stone Edge you.
Then, again, it must have been based on the EV's/Nature. I certainly recall dealing 52% to the Sandslash, but, as I mentioned, I didn't know about what the EV's and Nature of the Sandslash were, it might have invested in HP and attack, or Defense and Attack.
I take it your caculations were based on +Nature Max/Max.
I take it your caculations were based on +Nature Max/Max.
Doesn't it infuriate you guys that Quagsire doesn't learn Steal Rocks? It's a pretty damn useful pokemon but I have trouble fitting it on my team because it *doesn't learn Stealth Rocks*
All ranting aside, I'm using NU's version of "Double birds" (see Heysup's most famous teams) in which I am utilizing Dodrio and Charizard. Dodrio punches holes in opponents teams while Charizard sets up and sweeps. (DD Varient) I have to resort to tossing Quagsire because it doesn't learn Stealth rocks, but I'm trying to bend my team around using it.
All ranting aside, I'm using NU's version of "Double birds" (see Heysup's most famous teams) in which I am utilizing Dodrio and Charizard. Dodrio punches holes in opponents teams while Charizard sets up and sweeps. (DD Varient) I have to resort to tossing Quagsire because it doesn't learn Stealth rocks, but I'm trying to bend my team around using it.
How come when we argue, you always assume whatever Pokemon is used to counter the one that I'm talking about has perfect prediction, knows exactly what set I'm running, and how I'm running it? You did the same thing with Skuntank. I could be running Sub+3Attacks, or HP Ice or Flamethrower. Why would you risk me OHKOing your Sandslash, on the chance I don't carry HP Ice/Grass? Flamethrower 2HKOs you anyways.
Don't give me this shit about being walled by only Sandslash and Quagsire. Grass Knot/Sub/Volt Tackle/Focus Punch is the only decent set he can run with his Attack movepool. Not only are Volt Tackle + Sub counterproductive, you fail to OHKO anything with out a boost of any sort, since 90 Attack is not scary. Focus Punch doesn't even 2HKO bulky Miltank, and that's the only thing in the tier that doesn't suck and takes SE damage from it, and its just set-up bait for Curse. Volt Tackle doesn't have a 100% chance to 2HKO Slowking. Grass Knot doesn't 3HKO Sandslash with Leftovers. For fucks sake you get walled by VICTREEBEL!! And that's all assuming he can get a sub up. I mean, if he doesn't he loses to everything in the tier that doesn't take SE damage from Volt Tackle.
The surprise factor doesn't even work, since Raichu runs sub a lot. What am I going to switch into Raichu, that is going to get surprised by a Focus Punch? Regice? The second I realize that you are physical I win, becuase its so goddamn easy to wall. The second you realize that Manetric is SubCharge, you have a +1 Manetric behind a sub to worry about.
To be honest, while doubling up is a good idea, I don't think Dodrio and Charizard are the best pair to do this. Their weakness to Rock severely limits the team - there are a few things about Heysup's Free Bird team that make it viable:
1) Both Swellow and Moltres hit incredibly hard, without setup.
2) Swellow can create opportunities for Moltres to come in, for example by U-Turning off a Registeel.
Doubling up works best with Fighting-types in NU, IMO.
Because Sandslash is rarely OHKO by anything Manectric can throw at it. Seriously, it only comes close to being OHKO by Specs HP Grass. If I see a Manectric, I'm staying in. I'm not going to late it try something funny with Switcheroo. That free specs HP Grass will give me perfect time to setup with DD Charizard.
That's why you have Leftovers to boost your HP (I like Expert belt). Meh, so what if if it 2HKO's. It's a decent 3HKO. (Maybe running Focus Punch is a bad idea?
Miltank shouldn't even be setting up on Raichu on threat of encore.
Your trolling on the last point. Slowking is always OHKO by Voltackle. (even it ran a modest amount of physical bulk, it would be KOed by entry hazards)
Okay? I get walled by Victreebel. That makes sense since Raichu is an electric type with grass moves so... I'd switch out at this point. (can't take em all) You REALLY underestimate Volt Tackles power. It's really denting anything that doesn't outright resist it. With Raichu (and pretty much every frail attacker) is that you shouldn't be a hero. If you can't KO something you should back out. (words of wisdom by smogon)
How do you know that? Raichu running sub a lot? Your assuming again because I've rarely seen Raichu's other than me and a few others. And even then said people didn't even run sub... heck some ran Rain!
I see your point about being easy to wall, but sub-punch is only in a collection of movesets. The surprise factor DOES work because I get a free switch in on whatever you switch in. Say you switch in your bulky gardevoir as I sub, your literally out one pokemon because your playing a risky game of staying in or switching out. Yeah, once the surprises up it's not THAT good, but it's better than nothing. It's just as "viable" as your Sub Charge Manectric set.
Sorry but you overrate Sub Charge Manectric to extreme levels. I've actually used Sub Charge Manectric and let me tell you that it blows.
It's moveset consists of
-Sub
-Charge Beam
-T-bolt
-Flamethrower
Correct?
Charge beam on something that can't tank hits is utterly terrible. Your hard walled by pretty much every ground type in the tier. Ground/Rocks don't care, and your *surprise* can be stopped pretty easily. (according to you)
A 1+ Manectric is a lot weaker than a 2+ Raichu. It's still stopped cold by pretty much every special wall in the tier, and has crap coverage.
Raichu can run a nearly identical set but with Grass Knot over Flamethrower to beat ground's and rocks. (Flamethrower only helps Manectric beat grass types, which are a lot less common than they used to be in NU)
Your argument for subcharge is basically using Manectric's reputation as a Specs user to abuse it.
Seriously I find it funny how are arguments sorta *mirror* each other in a way. I go for Raichu's Subpunch vs your Manectric's Subcharge set. They are both Electric types with the same BST, and they are both in NU.
YES!!
But that is one of the main reasons people don't use him in UU ( enosaur withstanding) or maybe OU (not sayin that its good, but swampert - defense + recovery is pretty nice)
About Raichu VS. Manetric arguement.
I have used both of these sets and found that either raichu doesn't get any boosts or if it does it is killed by the multitudes of faster pokes and scarfers, or if physical dies with one hit after recoil (IMO 60 hp with Sub and recoil is not very good)
And if you really want a Sub charge set use Maggy or Amphy as they both have more "bulk" (or in Maggy's typing that seems bulky)
Hurray, a fellow brother. I love how pokemon like Blissey get Stealth Rocks while Quagsire is left out to dry. (live and learn)
Seriously this *outsped* by faster pokemon stuff is SO overdone. It's literally applicable to every non speed boosting sweeper and get's kinda of annoying. Sweet, I've setup Swords Dance with Charizard/Meganium! Time to sweep. OH NOES, SCARFER ALERT.
You know what, I might just revamp the physical set if it anger's people so.
I don't understand WHY you would want to run sub charge on anything but Rotom but to each one's own...
That is standard, but id rather run flamethrower over thunderbolt since more and more magneton are popping up these days, and a harder hit against grass types is nice. It leaves you a sitting duck if some fire type comes in and wants to set up and you don't have any boosts yet, but w/e
But you lose out on reliable stab and you can't hurt waters as much.
but but but... Tropius can use DD!
Without Leaf Blade, but it can.
In fact, the only NU with DD and a recovery move (not, Shelgon isn't as useful).
Also, it can use the Leech Seed set and it won't be ouclassed (Fly/Air Slash picks off grass pokes).
No need to use Sun for Tropius (which then it's outclassed by many pokes, like said Exeggutor).
Without Leaf Blade, but it can.
In fact, the only NU with DD and a recovery move (not, Shelgon isn't as useful).
Also, it can use the Leech Seed set and it won't be ouclassed (Fly/Air Slash picks off grass pokes).
No need to use Sun for Tropius (which then it's outclassed by many pokes, like said Exeggutor).
Yeah, I still had curses from Miltank's calc on Slwoking. That part surprised me too. Doesn't stop the fact Raichu is a terrible pokemon that should never be used. :) And you ignored a couple other pon
It OHKO's if the Sandslash has taken a minor amount of damage. Its a bulky pokemon, so chances are its switching into an attack.
If I see you subing and then using physical moves, I'm going to be setting up on you, whith a physically bulky Pokemon. You've already said GK was better. Your only other option with it is REturn and Iron Tail for physical.
You should be doing a lot of damage to a pokemon with defenses as bad as Victreebel, with a 120 BP STAB attack, even if it is resisted.
Because most of the Raichu I've seen that worked run sub. Raichu cannot set up without sub or Encore. Its too frail.
No. Its not. You get a free switch. Is that worth wasting a team slot for? Is that worth wasting 25% HP for? It wont work next time you face that person.
...You are accusing me of overrating something? LOL
Flamer Vs Sandslash: 69.1% - 81.7%
HP Ice vs Sandslash: 102.3% - 120.9%
Cool Walling. Tell me about the last time you saw a Golem, and maybe I might take that point seriously.
Then you still have the Thunderbolts from a good SAtk and Spd to deal with. Electric is the best Special Attacking type in the tier. It hurts things, with or without boosts.
Wrong. It beats the most common one, and set up subs on the Thunder Waves and statuses of the others. Raichu can do that that too, but Manetric does it better. 105/105 > 90/100.
Yes. It is. And when you know is ChargeBeam, now what are you going to do? You can't play around it as easily and it hits just as hard. Firing off an attack to revenge a Charizard or something isn't that hard. Its quite a bit easier than setting up a Nasty Plot.
It OHKO's if the Sandslash has taken a minor amount of damage. Its a bulky pokemon, so chances are its switching into an attack.
If I see you subing and then using physical moves, I'm going to be setting up on you, whith a physically bulky Pokemon. You've already said GK was better. Your only other option with it is REturn and Iron Tail for physical.
You should be doing a lot of damage to a pokemon with defenses as bad as Victreebel, with a 120 BP STAB attack, even if it is resisted.
Because most of the Raichu I've seen that worked run sub. Raichu cannot set up without sub or Encore. Its too frail.
No. Its not. You get a free switch. Is that worth wasting a team slot for? Is that worth wasting 25% HP for? It wont work next time you face that person.
...You are accusing me of overrating something? LOL
Flamer Vs Sandslash: 69.1% - 81.7%
HP Ice vs Sandslash: 102.3% - 120.9%
Cool Walling. Tell me about the last time you saw a Golem, and maybe I might take that point seriously.
Then you still have the Thunderbolts from a good SAtk and Spd to deal with. Electric is the best Special Attacking type in the tier. It hurts things, with or without boosts.
Wrong. It beats the most common one, and set up subs on the Thunder Waves and statuses of the others. Raichu can do that that too, but Manetric does it better. 105/105 > 90/100.
Yes. It is. And when you know is ChargeBeam, now what are you going to do? You can't play around it as easily and it hits just as hard. Firing off an attack to revenge a Charizard or something isn't that hard. Its quite a bit easier than setting up a Nasty Plot.
(Mobile again)
Should be common sense really, a 120 physical electric attack is going to OHKO Slowking.
Giving up on the subpunch argument... for now.
Those calcs are highly illogical. They are assuming that Manectric has picked up boost from the opponent THEN takes on Sandsladh. Seriously, wouldn't they switch in first?
Yeah you do realize Raichu is almost as frail as Manectric (and it it's even bulkier specially)
I don't understand, you keep ignoring that Raichu can pull of the boost set too.
-Thunderbolt
-Sub
-HP Ice / Grass Knot
-Nasty plot
You can beat what Manectric can, and sub on status. Raichu is even more reliable because Charge Beam can Miss OR not boost it's stats. What if they switch intp Quagsire? No boost for you wheres Nasty plot doesn't have such limitations.
Guaranteed 2+ > Probable 1+
Realky Manectrics advantages when using a Sub booster set are:
More speed (yay)
More SpA initially
More physical bulk
Raichu's are:
More reliability
More power
More Special bulk
1+ T-bolt from Manectric doesn't OHKO Slowking while 2+ will.
Still I do concede that Manectric is better overall simply because switch specs rocks. Crippling a special wall yes please.
Its not more reliable. Firing off an attack is easier than setting up a sub and then setting up a Nasty Plot. I said that. Manetric can deal 30% to something. most of the time someone will just sac that weakened Pokemon, rather that switch, because, if they mispredict the switch they are down a lot. Raichu has to switch into something that can't hurt it (doesn't exist) or something that it threatens, and force a switch. It can't come in on something weakened and grab a boost that way. You have to have far more dedicated a team to use Raichu, than Manetric, because its easier to set up. Nobody gives a damn how good Raichu is at +2, because its so hard to get it there. Actually I've realized that Charizard is Manetric's best set up bait, since people don't want to risk losing it if SR isn't on the field and don't want to switch out if it is. (Raichu can't since it speed ties)
Second Physical bulk matters more since the random priority is physical, and the faster Special threats (Espeon, Scarflosion, etc) is OHKOing you.
I'm not addressing the Quagsire thing, because I explained it, and then told you how I already addressed that point already. lol Besides, you ignore some of my points. Why can't I?
Whishcash is pretty beast. Its a little slow for my taste, but I really like that the BP of GK against it is really low.
Second Physical bulk matters more since the random priority is physical, and the faster Special threats (Espeon, Scarflosion, etc) is OHKOing you.
I'm not addressing the Quagsire thing, because I explained it, and then told you how I already addressed that point already. lol Besides, you ignore some of my points. Why can't I?
Whishcash is pretty beast. Its a little slow for my taste, but I really like that the BP of GK against it is really low.
I Can't adress all points on a mobile now can I? You mention that you can fire off a weak Charge beam for a quick boost but most Manectrics counters don't really care about 1+ boost. You still can't touch Quagsire, and Sandslash beats you anyday.
Nasty plotting first is still a good strat. If they switch a weakened pokemon theny you can easily kill it next turn. (unless you want to sac something fast/scarfer?!?)
If your going to attack first whats the sub for? Status only?
Don't forget that Charge beam isn't always reliable. What happens if you miss (and you die from said move) or you don't pick up a boost?
Oh and you keep staking a huge part of your argument on Zard. Seriously, it's a nice advantage but so is beating Quagsire/Sandslash most of the time.
And Manectric is frail too, stop forgetting that. There isn't something that doesn't hurt it either. And the SpD could be useful for taking a hit from a special wall. (1+ T-bolt doesn't OHKO Slowking while Surf deals :ike 60+ back) Raichu isn't even OHKO by Espeon's psychicbwhile Manectric is.
You know what? You can keep using Subcharge Manectric. Me, i'm sticking to Raichu (and Specs Manectric)
Whiscash?!? No idea never used it.
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