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The First Smogon Council - Salamence
- Thread starter Aeolus
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I don' think this topic is about how effective Salamence would be in uber, the topic is about whether or not Salemence is broken in OU, and whether should be banned.
I personally don't think Salamence should be uber, and here is why. Firstly, how many teams do you see that run a stealth rock lead? A very high amount I am sure, and Salemence takes a fairly large 25% from this, meaning that he struggles to switch in more than once or twice, and he is further crippled by Sand Stream, tyranitar being in 21% of teams. All this added with LO for the standard DD set make him a very powerful yet frail sweeper. Not to mention the abundance of Scizor's who easily take down Salamence after SR damage.
The Choice Specs set fairs slightly differently, it cannot function as well as probably wanted, because Draco Meteor nearly always means you will have to switch out again, not good when you take 25% from SR.
Salamence is like MANY other pokemon, in that it has the potential to destroy teams, and kill nearly anything that switches into it, however there are pokemon that can take him on effectively. I mean if you predict a Dragon Dance, you can go to Gyarados, anything with Intimidate, or even your own dragon type to lure him into an outrage, quickly followed by a quick set up for anything you want, be it SD Scizor, Agiligross.
Salamence should not be uber, the current metagame makes it a somewhat frail pokemon, and can be taken care of by numerous pokemon. And in all honesty, if you don't have a counter to salamence, then you are kind of silly, by countering Salamence you are also countering several other potent sweepers such as Gyarados [to some extent] and Dragonite
I personally don't think Salamence should be uber, and here is why. Firstly, how many teams do you see that run a stealth rock lead? A very high amount I am sure, and Salemence takes a fairly large 25% from this, meaning that he struggles to switch in more than once or twice, and he is further crippled by Sand Stream, tyranitar being in 21% of teams. All this added with LO for the standard DD set make him a very powerful yet frail sweeper. Not to mention the abundance of Scizor's who easily take down Salamence after SR damage.
The Choice Specs set fairs slightly differently, it cannot function as well as probably wanted, because Draco Meteor nearly always means you will have to switch out again, not good when you take 25% from SR.
Salamence is like MANY other pokemon, in that it has the potential to destroy teams, and kill nearly anything that switches into it, however there are pokemon that can take him on effectively. I mean if you predict a Dragon Dance, you can go to Gyarados, anything with Intimidate, or even your own dragon type to lure him into an outrage, quickly followed by a quick set up for anything you want, be it SD Scizor, Agiligross.
Salamence should not be uber, the current metagame makes it a somewhat frail pokemon, and can be taken care of by numerous pokemon. And in all honesty, if you don't have a counter to salamence, then you are kind of silly, by countering Salamence you are also countering several other potent sweepers such as Gyarados [to some extent] and Dragonite
When I first heard about this test I was excited. I thought it would be refreshing to play without having to worry about what appeared to be the most dangerous threat of the metagame. I've always despised Salamence since Platinum released, and thought the metagame would improve without it. I feel I was wrong.
Without the premier sweeper and wallbreaker, stall has taken over. Every match I have played, with maybe 3 exceptions, has been a race to see who can run the other guy out of Recover/Roost PP the fastest. There's no room for balanced teams in the slightest anymore. It's either stall or all out offense to break said stall. While there are a few noteworthy wallbreakers, namely Lucario and Infernape, they are easier to check than Salamence. It's easier for stall to get set-up and get into it's rhythm without Salamence breathing down their necks. The very threat of it's presence forced a different style of play, one I find more enjoyable. Now, it's about slower, bulky offense and heavy defense, which is much less fun and creates for slower, longer games.
People talk about how many more choices there are in the new metagame. The thrill of new choices has many happy. However, when the dust settles there will be just as much centralization around the common threats as there is now. Just because something is big and dangerous does not make it Uber. In a past debate about the possible brokenness of Stealth Rock I made a statement about SR that applies here; that like it or not, it's a necessary factor to keep metagame in check. While the removal of Salamence might allow stall to rise, it stifles the game in other aspects. The game devolves into a less dynamic game of walls and wall breaking. While this makes users of stall teams happy, I feel users of balanced and, to a lesser extent, offensive teams, suffer for it.
As I play more I'll post any different impressions I get, as I'll admit I have not played a great deal on the suspect ladder, or at least as much as I'd like to form a full opinion. However, the trends have emerged quickly, and between my first impressions and the multitudes of posts here I feel I am not the only one to notice these trends and have these feelings.
Without the premier sweeper and wallbreaker, stall has taken over. Every match I have played, with maybe 3 exceptions, has been a race to see who can run the other guy out of Recover/Roost PP the fastest. There's no room for balanced teams in the slightest anymore. It's either stall or all out offense to break said stall. While there are a few noteworthy wallbreakers, namely Lucario and Infernape, they are easier to check than Salamence. It's easier for stall to get set-up and get into it's rhythm without Salamence breathing down their necks. The very threat of it's presence forced a different style of play, one I find more enjoyable. Now, it's about slower, bulky offense and heavy defense, which is much less fun and creates for slower, longer games.
People talk about how many more choices there are in the new metagame. The thrill of new choices has many happy. However, when the dust settles there will be just as much centralization around the common threats as there is now. Just because something is big and dangerous does not make it Uber. In a past debate about the possible brokenness of Stealth Rock I made a statement about SR that applies here; that like it or not, it's a necessary factor to keep metagame in check. While the removal of Salamence might allow stall to rise, it stifles the game in other aspects. The game devolves into a less dynamic game of walls and wall breaking. While this makes users of stall teams happy, I feel users of balanced and, to a lesser extent, offensive teams, suffer for it.
As I play more I'll post any different impressions I get, as I'll admit I have not played a great deal on the suspect ladder, or at least as much as I'd like to form a full opinion. However, the trends have emerged quickly, and between my first impressions and the multitudes of posts here I feel I am not the only one to notice these trends and have these feelings.
Does anyone here feel that the Suspect metagame is a lot like the UU metagame? What with everyone running Celebi, Vappy, Heatran, Dragonite as opposed to Venusaur, Milotic, Arcanine, Altaria... Offensive teams are also similar, with the Infernapes, Lucarios, Gyarados over Blazikens, Sceptiles, Ferligatrs...
Note: The following is my opinion of the experiences I've had on the ladders and which metagame I prefer
I have been playing on both ladders (I didn't play pre Latias so this is new territory for me in a way) and I was pretty suprised at which ladder was actually more centralizing. The suspect ladder was far more centralizing from what I saw, revolving almost completely around fire water grass cores, with insurance against the opponents fire water grass core *breakers* thrown in e.g. blissey so Starmie/Zapdos don't wreck them. Sure, on the Standard ladder these sort of balance teams were more common than when Latias was on the ladder, but with Salamence's presence there, you had a solid way to get past the cookie cutter fire water grass core. I agree that Salamence is absolutely a top tier poke, and hard to defend against, but I don't think it centralizes the metagame, unlike Latias, who through resistances and sheer bulk forced centralization around steel/dragon. Salamence is too frail (not that it can't take a hit) to force this kind of centralization that excluded Celebi, Shaymin, Vaporeon etc. etc. from the game like Latias did. Salamence is just something you have to account for in team building and although as a threat is huge, I do not believe that it requires anywhere near as drastic team changes as Latias.
'Salamence is not as uber as Latias' isn't a reason not to make Salamence uber though. I just wanted to give some thoughts and ideas.
On paper Salamence looks hard to overcome, access to amazing stab moves, reliable recovery in the form of roost, stat boosts...these are things sweepers dream about, but it just always seems...'manageable' to me.
It is really easy to have a check for Mence, nobody can deny that, it simply isn't hard at all, albeit its a different story after a DD, it is still not the most impossible thing that just wrecks team building as alot of people have implied in this thread.
Actually, I'd say it isn't even the 'guesswork' you have to do when you first see a Salamence that would make it uber if indeed it is uber, I'd say it is 80% Mixmence that WOULD be uber (just making clear that I don't think it is). It has large similarities to Latias' choice specs set which was one Latias' most contributing sets to it being voted uber, except: you aren't pursuit bait, you can switch moves, you attack from both sides of the spectrum and you have pretty much no chance of getting set up on. Add to this a very viable alternative (I always use this :P) fourth moveslot in the form of Roost and you have yourself a stall killer that can also hold its weight against other play styles.
In conclusion, I think Mence is a necessary threat for a more stable metagame, however strange some of you may think that sounds. The suspect ladder is leaning far too heavily towards stall and the metagame seems more stale in general.
In what way does Salamence really centralize the metagame? From what I see, a variety of special attacking pokes are springing up left, right and centre as they are just so much more viable now Latias is gone, as she was both an answer to them AND did most of their offensive jobs better. Who would replace Salamence? It isn't stopping any other poke from fulfilling its designated role in such a way that should Salamence be banned, that particular poke would raise immensely in popularity. The exception to this is FWG stall doesn't dominate the tier with Salamence around. You can get past stall teams, no matter how well built they are, so don't take this as me saying stall is just so hard to beat...but it just isn't fun to run into team after team of Gyarados/Heatran/Blissey (Balance teams).
Really quick summary of my thoughts:
-Salamence keeps FWG heavily defensive/ stall teams in check
-Salamence doesn't heavily affect team building, however, it must certainly be taken into account in regards to how you can check it
-Salamence is like many other pokes, in that when played right, it will fulfil its role.
-I'd call Draco Meteor the most impacting factor in Salamence being judged.
Edit:@ chess discussion...they are completely different games, one is Chess, one is Pokemon. Some aspects can be seen as similar such as you want to clear certain pieces from your opponents team so that they can be exploited by the rest of your team. But yeah..they are different games.
I have been playing on both ladders (I didn't play pre Latias so this is new territory for me in a way) and I was pretty suprised at which ladder was actually more centralizing. The suspect ladder was far more centralizing from what I saw, revolving almost completely around fire water grass cores, with insurance against the opponents fire water grass core *breakers* thrown in e.g. blissey so Starmie/Zapdos don't wreck them. Sure, on the Standard ladder these sort of balance teams were more common than when Latias was on the ladder, but with Salamence's presence there, you had a solid way to get past the cookie cutter fire water grass core. I agree that Salamence is absolutely a top tier poke, and hard to defend against, but I don't think it centralizes the metagame, unlike Latias, who through resistances and sheer bulk forced centralization around steel/dragon. Salamence is too frail (not that it can't take a hit) to force this kind of centralization that excluded Celebi, Shaymin, Vaporeon etc. etc. from the game like Latias did. Salamence is just something you have to account for in team building and although as a threat is huge, I do not believe that it requires anywhere near as drastic team changes as Latias.
'Salamence is not as uber as Latias' isn't a reason not to make Salamence uber though. I just wanted to give some thoughts and ideas.
On paper Salamence looks hard to overcome, access to amazing stab moves, reliable recovery in the form of roost, stat boosts...these are things sweepers dream about, but it just always seems...'manageable' to me.
It is really easy to have a check for Mence, nobody can deny that, it simply isn't hard at all, albeit its a different story after a DD, it is still not the most impossible thing that just wrecks team building as alot of people have implied in this thread.
Actually, I'd say it isn't even the 'guesswork' you have to do when you first see a Salamence that would make it uber if indeed it is uber, I'd say it is 80% Mixmence that WOULD be uber (just making clear that I don't think it is). It has large similarities to Latias' choice specs set which was one Latias' most contributing sets to it being voted uber, except: you aren't pursuit bait, you can switch moves, you attack from both sides of the spectrum and you have pretty much no chance of getting set up on. Add to this a very viable alternative (I always use this :P) fourth moveslot in the form of Roost and you have yourself a stall killer that can also hold its weight against other play styles.
In conclusion, I think Mence is a necessary threat for a more stable metagame, however strange some of you may think that sounds. The suspect ladder is leaning far too heavily towards stall and the metagame seems more stale in general.
In what way does Salamence really centralize the metagame? From what I see, a variety of special attacking pokes are springing up left, right and centre as they are just so much more viable now Latias is gone, as she was both an answer to them AND did most of their offensive jobs better. Who would replace Salamence? It isn't stopping any other poke from fulfilling its designated role in such a way that should Salamence be banned, that particular poke would raise immensely in popularity. The exception to this is FWG stall doesn't dominate the tier with Salamence around. You can get past stall teams, no matter how well built they are, so don't take this as me saying stall is just so hard to beat...but it just isn't fun to run into team after team of Gyarados/Heatran/Blissey (Balance teams).
Really quick summary of my thoughts:
-Salamence keeps FWG heavily defensive/ stall teams in check
-Salamence doesn't heavily affect team building, however, it must certainly be taken into account in regards to how you can check it
-Salamence is like many other pokes, in that when played right, it will fulfil its role.
-I'd call Draco Meteor the most impacting factor in Salamence being judged.
Edit:@ chess discussion...they are completely different games, one is Chess, one is Pokemon. Some aspects can be seen as similar such as you want to clear certain pieces from your opponents team so that they can be exploited by the rest of your team. But yeah..they are different games.
kokoloco said:
Can you not post like you're being antagonized for a second? Chess and Pokémon aren't "completely different" games, and even if they were, the fundamental connection that I was trying to make with the analogy holds. I wasn't trying to say, "Salamence is like the queen, therefore it's OU." I was merely saying that it was an interesting comparison. They're both easily the most powerful "pieces" in their metagames, but more importantly they both play roles for their metagames beyond that. Being "easily the best" is not an argument for Salamence being Uber; there are other, better arguments for both sides of the debate.
If you think about it, the queen has the same "you basically have to sac somebody" quality that Salamence does. The difference, of course, is that queen-countering strategies are easy to see, where as with Salamence it's not so easy much of the time due to imperfect information. If that difference makes Salamence Uber, so be it. Suffice to say that the analogy helps to contextualize some of these arguments at worst, and potentially even helps the Uber arguments at best. The analogy puts to the forefront what Aeroblacktyl said earlier and others have since echoed. I think that his point was a very important one, whether you agree with it or not.
As an aside, Pokémon (well, ADV, at least) has been compared to chess before, not in how good/deep they are but in the similar aspects.
ugh... wall of text....
You will probably see in several people's sigs.
Uber status is not determined by power in ubers.
Your arguments are frail and misguided. You do not need a dragon type on your team. I'm also fairly certain that latias and mence shared alot of team spots over the past few months.I know I didn't have much to add. Don't really feel it is necessary but that was godawful to read.
So, from my experience, I've been having some fun with the new meta. Still running my old hail stall team, the one I was irritated way back when the Smog had basically a carbon copy of it in it.
Luring out ape is easy, with the addition of Skarmory to my team over Gliscor. I then Brave Bird on the Nasty Plot. Problem solved. If they just FBd, in comes Starmie to finish it off. Given, I had to move EVs to Speed, but it's still just as easy.
Or, I just make the switch to Starmie. No risk whatsoever, because it's sash is useless, if it had one.
The absence of both Latias and Salamence removes two of the main threats to my team, though Salamence was much less so. Now, the only major problem my team has is Zapdos and Scizor, the latter only for lack of a fire move. With usage down a bit, I'm having less trouble.
Aside from ape, I'm generally able to get TSpikes up with Forretress easier, with less fear of getting OHKO'd.
Whoa, useless long post.
Anyways, in my experience, the metagame has shifted to accomodate stall better, with one of the best wall breakers gone, and one of the old ones returning.
I'm waiting for Dugtrio to make a return.
Luring out ape is easy, with the addition of Skarmory to my team over Gliscor. I then Brave Bird on the Nasty Plot. Problem solved. If they just FBd, in comes Starmie to finish it off. Given, I had to move EVs to Speed, but it's still just as easy.
Or, I just make the switch to Starmie. No risk whatsoever, because it's sash is useless, if it had one.
The absence of both Latias and Salamence removes two of the main threats to my team, though Salamence was much less so. Now, the only major problem my team has is Zapdos and Scizor, the latter only for lack of a fire move. With usage down a bit, I'm having less trouble.
Aside from ape, I'm generally able to get TSpikes up with Forretress easier, with less fear of getting OHKO'd.
Whoa, useless long post.
Anyways, in my experience, the metagame has shifted to accomodate stall better, with one of the best wall breakers gone, and one of the old ones returning.
I'm waiting for Dugtrio to make a return.
Wouldn't this make your team Lucario weak, as in insta 6-0ed? I'm pretty sure Gliscor is key for successful hail teams, assuming you have a restalk rotom > scarf.
...Or skarmory dies for essentially no reason as nothing is keeping the user in vs a Starmie.
On another note, Salamence looks like a flying pancake in the animé. (To all artists: Please make me a Salamence | Pancake fusion!)
I'm back! OK! let's talk mence.wait, oh yea I just remembered to say trainer Capefeather I look forward to a pokemon battle against you! alright lets see here salamence...one of the twelve dragon pokemon in the game. let's look at his stats starting with speeed, 328 max trained and beneficial. out classes dragonite,altaria,kingdra,dialga,rayquaza,and giratina.WOW! therefore he can pretty much Ko them, however there is an exception for dragonite which now has the rare attack extreme speed(for those of you who didn't know) this means a deffensive dragonite,let's say relaxed max 386 hp 317 deffense will take the outrage and ice beam him, what if mence has sash or choice scarf,extreme speed finish red eybrows off.all kingdras I use have haban berry(one weakness one weaken berry) weaken meteor or outrage,get that rain started and you know what happens then.anyway instead let's put mence up against other non-dragon pokemon. Hmmm, Heatran, one earthquake but he might have shuca berry and hidden power Ice(like my 394 heatran). Not to make this subject to long but this is how I figure out which pokemon ard bannedable and who aren't. step by step evalution between the pokemon and how it fairs in various situatins between other popular pokemon in singles format!
I am not posting as if I'm being antagonized; maybe I come off as an asshole because I've always been very nonchalant about the way I speak. If I came off as an asshole, I apologize - however my opinions about the analogy stand true.
The fact is, just because Salamence and the queen have some elements in common doesn't mean they are similar - this is because the environments in which they play are vastly different. In chess, sacrifice is embedded into every basic strategy while in Pokemon, one should not be forced to sacrifice something just because the opposing team runs Salamence. Besides, if you're playing chess, you know were your opponent's queen is, and is capable of at all times; while when you see Salamence you have no idea what it's going to do.
I realize I sound repetitive, but that's because the best argument for Salamence becoming Uber is the fact that he is the only pokemon in the metagame who can force a sacrifice every single game - just to find out which set he's running. That is a quality only held by him in OU, and a quality which makes him not belong.
And since I know someone is going to say "Salamence doesn't fit into the Offensive Characteristic of an Uber because getting one kill per game is not 'sweeping through a significant portion of the metagame!'" I'll just say this: Since most of us agree that you have to consistently make a sacrifice to Salamence when you see him, we also agree that he rips apart your defensive core. Now, a pokemon who is guaranteed to do this fits into the Support Characteristic. Salamence is that pokemon.
What makes Salamence different from other pokemon who break down defensive cores is the efficiency and consistency with which he does it. No other pokemon is guaranteed to do the same - courtesy of having solid counters, while Mence, does not.
It may just be me but it seems all you have done is described an effective wallbreaker...
Why does Salamence instantly require a sacrifice? Why can't you use intelligence to make educated assumptions about the set (as multiple people have said e.g. mence comes in on a 70% Swampert...what is he going to do...). Why is it that you can predict around Infernape and not Salamence? Some may say Infernape has hard counters and that is why Salamence is more threatening, but what is a hard counter when it has a 4 x weakness that Infernape could just choose to muscle through(Gyara)? Or when another can be set up on easily by multiple threatening pokes (e.g.Breloom on Vaporeon).
Let's touch on this.
What is it that makes Salamence much more deadly than Infernape? Infernape can run even more sets that can be potentially just as threatening (I'd say more threatening).
Have we simply developed a hatred of Steel/Dragon centralization and want a change of scenery, even if heavy centralization remains?
Because of the recent Latias ban, are we just assuming Salamence poses a similar threat?
I for one have not been convinced that Salamence poses a significantly larger threat than other top sweepers in the tier.
Is it the fact that you have to predict against Salamence alot of the time, is this what is getting to people? Perhaps the haters just predict wrong alot of the time?
Does Salamence give a representation of the skill level of both players using it (on a larger scale than the average poke)... I do agree that it punishes misplays/mispredictions more than alot of the tier, but is this a valid enough reason for Uber?
It seems as if as of late, everyone and their brother whines about how any Dragon type with an attacking stat of 100+ and with good speed should be Uber. Salamence should remain where it is, being that there good checks to it ready, and most teams should have a counter to it as it is. Unfortunately, this isn't always the case sadly.
Unfortunately, This will get you flamed. At best, only DD has surefire 'counters', yes you can predict for mixmence but those aren't called counters. Brings me onto my next point.....Do most people know how to play against Salamence....does it require you to up your game to the point where you don't think you should have to work that hard?
There are no reliable counters to Salamence, otherwise there would be no problem.
No. Just no.
If you read the rest of my posts, instead of singling out just one part of the argument, you would know that that is not the point I'm trying to make.
Besides, why did Latias get banned? Because she constantly and reliably tore open holes in the opposing team, due to not having many safe switch-ins. I wonder who else shares this quality? -_-
Actually, I had noticed exactly that. The suspect ladder is insanely boring. I wouldn't be surprised if there are less that 15 Pokemon with more than 0.1% usage (hyperbole, perhaps. Go yourself and see). For a Pokemon that "over centralizes the meta-game" so badly it leaves an even more centralized game in its absence.
I think I have seen 6 unique* "sweepers" and 8 unique "stallers" in about 65 matches. Maybe it's just bad luck on my part and I run into the same douchey teams over and over but it certainly does not feel that way.
*by unique I mean national pokedex number-wise and not interesting or uncommon builds
Mence isn't "unpredictable". The overwhelming majority of Mence sets have Outrage, EQ and Fire Blast, the only thing you don't know is if it's got Meteor or DD. Mence can't magically get a free kill just by coming out, Mence needs to do just as much prediction as his opponents, if you outplay your opponent, Mence won't kill something, if he outplays you, then he will. That's how the game works, more accurately, how any game works.
Ok, so I've been trying a couple of teams that can work well on both ladders, and I thought I'd post my experiences here.
1.) Specs Kingdra + OTR Bronzong is a lethal combination for opposing teams. The common factor between the two teams that I've been using is this combination, and they go together like soap and water.
Modest Specs Kingdra hits 317 Special Attack, which is just 2 less than Timid Specs Latias. However, I personally find it easier to switch in, provided you use the spread 100 HP/252 SpA/156 Spe. This gives Kingdra lots of bulk for a choice user, and Kingdra's 4x resists (Fire/Water) are held on VERY common pokemon such as Heatran, Suicune, Vaporeon, and many more. In addition, Kingdra doesn't need to come in multiple times in the match to do its job, and with just 1 weakness (Dragon), not much is going to be KOing him in one shot; in fact, it takes a lot of power to outright 2HKO him.
Kingdra really destroys the Steels that try to switch into its Draco Meteor, even moreso than Latias did with her Specs set. The Water STAB, and even Hydro Pump is a big contributing factor. Empoleon is pretty much the only Steel that can't avoid a 2HKO, and even he still takes a lot. You won't believe how many Skarmories have come in suspecting a DD set just to get an epic facial so nasty that he can't help but faint.
For those of you complaining about Stall in the Suspect metagame, you really shouldn't be complaining if you haven't tried Specs Kingdra. Blissey is literally the only thing that can take a big hit from Blissey, though she still loses a nice chunk from Draco Meteor. Specs Kingdra goes so well with OTR Bronzong because he Kingdra takes out Rotom-A, Forretress, Suicune, Swampert, and basically any of the bulky Waters that would give Bronzong any trouble. Even a full health Blissey WILL be OHKOed by Draco Meteor if Kingdra gets a Sniper CH (low chance, but still possible).
OTR Bronzong (Offensive Trick Room for those who don't know of the set), on the other hand, not only wrecks offensive teams, but is just generally great at cleaning up the mess. As one of the bulkiest and "fastest" sweepers in the game, this thing is quite a threat to any team, provided bulky Waters, Skarmory, Rotom-A, and other Bronzong are gone. If you read what I said about Specs Kingdra though, you'd know that he rips all of those things apart.
The great thing about OTR Bronzong is that he's not only really easy to set up with his great defenses and single weakness, but it's that by just slapping a Macho Brace (no Life Orb recoil xD) on it, you're packing a 150 BP STAB move on anything with 185 Speed or higher (base 75s with no investment), which spells pretty much all of OU. And it has 100% accuracy on top of that! This means that you can pull off a lot of "guaranteed" sweeps at the end of the game, especially with Explosion in hand as well.
Against Stall teams, it still contributes quite a bit, because although it doesn't do it to the extent of Specs Kingdra, it still tears through certain members. For instance, Gliscor and Blissey are easily 2HKOed after Stealth Rock by Gyro Ball, and Tyranitar is OHKOed. Don't forget that he also has Explosion, which can easily take out a vital member of your opponent's team. On a stall team, losing even one member can mean losing a lot of the synergy in your defensive core, leaving them open to a lot more threats.
OTR Bronzong can also support Kingdra with his Trick Room, though he often uses it for himself. It's not advised to make Kingdra have low Speed and all that stuff that you might do when you think of Trick Room. Just keep in mind that you should only do this when the opposing team is stuff that Bronzong can't beat, but Kingdra can. That goes for any kind of Trick Room thing, but I thought I'd just point that out.
2.) Offensive Spike-stacking is really bad for offensive and stall teams alike. On my offensive hazards team, which has gotten extremely high on the suspect leaderboard through an alt, I use Froslass and Heatran as my hazard stackers, and then I watch the fun unfold.
Froslass is a very good lead Spiker (I've tried it as a non-lead, and I can't use it that way for the life of me), setting up at least 2 layers against a large amount of leads. Heatran is a good Stealth Rocker because his typing complements Froslass's perfectly.
Once the entry hazards are set up, Stall isn't going to be switching around nearly as much. Blissey is destroyed by my Heatran since it's a Modest Taunt/LO variant with Fire Blast and Earth Power as its attacks. Specs Kingdra is also on this team, and if you thought things couldn't switch into it before, it's somehow become even harder now. Some Salamence try to switch into Heatran's Fire Blast, only to realize that if Fire Blast actually hits them, they've only got something like 25% of their health left thanks to the SR damage.
Even Offensive Rotom-A is really good on one of these kinds of teams, because a lot of the stuff that likes to switch into it is grounded or weak to SR. This means that they're going to have a lot of trouble taking those STABs. For example, Heatran, who seems to love switching into Rotom-A to try and take a Will-O-Wisp, is dead after 2 Thunderbolts.
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To be honest, I'm not really sure which ladder I prefer. However, I do like that the suspect ladder has basically no Skarmories, because I absolutely hate that pokemon and think it should go mysteriously extinct when B/W comes out. :]
1.) Specs Kingdra + OTR Bronzong is a lethal combination for opposing teams. The common factor between the two teams that I've been using is this combination, and they go together like soap and water.
Modest Specs Kingdra hits 317 Special Attack, which is just 2 less than Timid Specs Latias. However, I personally find it easier to switch in, provided you use the spread 100 HP/252 SpA/156 Spe. This gives Kingdra lots of bulk for a choice user, and Kingdra's 4x resists (Fire/Water) are held on VERY common pokemon such as Heatran, Suicune, Vaporeon, and many more. In addition, Kingdra doesn't need to come in multiple times in the match to do its job, and with just 1 weakness (Dragon), not much is going to be KOing him in one shot; in fact, it takes a lot of power to outright 2HKO him.
Kingdra really destroys the Steels that try to switch into its Draco Meteor, even moreso than Latias did with her Specs set. The Water STAB, and even Hydro Pump is a big contributing factor. Empoleon is pretty much the only Steel that can't avoid a 2HKO, and even he still takes a lot. You won't believe how many Skarmories have come in suspecting a DD set just to get an epic facial so nasty that he can't help but faint.
For those of you complaining about Stall in the Suspect metagame, you really shouldn't be complaining if you haven't tried Specs Kingdra. Blissey is literally the only thing that can take a big hit from Blissey, though she still loses a nice chunk from Draco Meteor. Specs Kingdra goes so well with OTR Bronzong because he Kingdra takes out Rotom-A, Forretress, Suicune, Swampert, and basically any of the bulky Waters that would give Bronzong any trouble. Even a full health Blissey WILL be OHKOed by Draco Meteor if Kingdra gets a Sniper CH (low chance, but still possible).
OTR Bronzong (Offensive Trick Room for those who don't know of the set), on the other hand, not only wrecks offensive teams, but is just generally great at cleaning up the mess. As one of the bulkiest and "fastest" sweepers in the game, this thing is quite a threat to any team, provided bulky Waters, Skarmory, Rotom-A, and other Bronzong are gone. If you read what I said about Specs Kingdra though, you'd know that he rips all of those things apart.
The great thing about OTR Bronzong is that he's not only really easy to set up with his great defenses and single weakness, but it's that by just slapping a Macho Brace (no Life Orb recoil xD) on it, you're packing a 150 BP STAB move on anything with 185 Speed or higher (base 75s with no investment), which spells pretty much all of OU. And it has 100% accuracy on top of that! This means that you can pull off a lot of "guaranteed" sweeps at the end of the game, especially with Explosion in hand as well.
Against Stall teams, it still contributes quite a bit, because although it doesn't do it to the extent of Specs Kingdra, it still tears through certain members. For instance, Gliscor and Blissey are easily 2HKOed after Stealth Rock by Gyro Ball, and Tyranitar is OHKOed. Don't forget that he also has Explosion, which can easily take out a vital member of your opponent's team. On a stall team, losing even one member can mean losing a lot of the synergy in your defensive core, leaving them open to a lot more threats.
OTR Bronzong can also support Kingdra with his Trick Room, though he often uses it for himself. It's not advised to make Kingdra have low Speed and all that stuff that you might do when you think of Trick Room. Just keep in mind that you should only do this when the opposing team is stuff that Bronzong can't beat, but Kingdra can. That goes for any kind of Trick Room thing, but I thought I'd just point that out.
2.) Offensive Spike-stacking is really bad for offensive and stall teams alike. On my offensive hazards team, which has gotten extremely high on the suspect leaderboard through an alt, I use Froslass and Heatran as my hazard stackers, and then I watch the fun unfold.
Froslass is a very good lead Spiker (I've tried it as a non-lead, and I can't use it that way for the life of me), setting up at least 2 layers against a large amount of leads. Heatran is a good Stealth Rocker because his typing complements Froslass's perfectly.
Once the entry hazards are set up, Stall isn't going to be switching around nearly as much. Blissey is destroyed by my Heatran since it's a Modest Taunt/LO variant with Fire Blast and Earth Power as its attacks. Specs Kingdra is also on this team, and if you thought things couldn't switch into it before, it's somehow become even harder now. Some Salamence try to switch into Heatran's Fire Blast, only to realize that if Fire Blast actually hits them, they've only got something like 25% of their health left thanks to the SR damage.
Even Offensive Rotom-A is really good on one of these kinds of teams, because a lot of the stuff that likes to switch into it is grounded or weak to SR. This means that they're going to have a lot of trouble taking those STABs. For example, Heatran, who seems to love switching into Rotom-A to try and take a Will-O-Wisp, is dead after 2 Thunderbolts.
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To be honest, I'm not really sure which ladder I prefer. However, I do like that the suspect ladder has basically no Skarmories, because I absolutely hate that pokemon and think it should go mysteriously extinct when B/W comes out. :]
Originally Posted by Fat kokoloko
Making assumptions like that is what good Salamence players rely on. You immediately assume that I'm going to Draco Meteor just because I came in on a weakened Swampert so you switch out, allowing for a free DD. Besides, even if I do Draco Meteor and you bring in lets say, Jirachi, I weakened the shit out of it and will kill it with EQ unless you win the speed tie. What else can you bring in thats relatively safe from any of Salamence's sets? Nothing.
This is exactly my point, you're being forced to either play a crazy guessing "prediction" game which eventually boils down to a 50-50 shot because I can just as easily outpredict you.
Good Salamence players don't rely on their opponents playing like that, and there is no guarantee that the Swampert user would switch out meaning a dead Mence most likely, but tbh reasoning like you've provided (not that I can even see much reasoning in your post) doesn't prove anything. ''omg someone can predict something and they could get punished if they are wrong'', this is true with SOOOO many things. I have already said in my first post that sure, if you mispredict then you can get punished, albeit moreso than if you mispredicted against a less offensive threat, but that doesn't change the fact that MISPREDICTIONS CAUSE BAD SHIT, you can name any number of things that can seriously hurt you if you mispredict. Why is this down to Salamence??? If anything, this is the fault of the player. You haven't addressed why predicting against Salamence is so 50/50 as you say. It isn't 50/50 at all unless you fail to take into account the battle so far.
Originally Posted by Fat kokoloko
The thing is, you don't have to predict around Infernape. Yes infernape can specialize to beat some of its counters, but then it leaves itself open to other, potentially more dangerious, counters. Salamence doesn't even have to specialize to beat anything, that's the problem.
Physical Mixape with Close Combat, Overheat, ThunderPunch, Mach Punch is certainly not over specializing to beat Gyarados, this is a GOOD moveset for a standard physical ape. Please give names of these COUNTERS because you are just throwing that phrase about when it comes to Infernape without saying what these oh so good counters are. What is Infernape more open to in running that set? Heck, CC,Overheat,TPunch & Uturn is more than acceptable as an alternative and this walks all over every 'counter' that is at the forefront of my mind.
Infernape doesn't have to specialize, it merely has to run another one of its completely viable sets. Give me some examples like I said.
Originally Posted by Fat kokoloko
While I do agree that, in terms of versatility alone, Infernape is far more dangerous than Salamence, you have to consider the fact that Infernape hits nowhere near as hard as Salamence. This gives you a hell of a lot more breathing room to counter / play around it, since none of your pokemon are in immediate danger of dying.
Contradiction much. You say that Infernape is far more dangerous in terms of versatility yet you have more room to play around it? Actually you say 'hell of a lot more'. Why aren't things in immediate danger with Infernapes impressive movepool? Picture this: Infernape vs Swampert , this is no different than your Salamence on Swampert theory of swampert switching out. Infernape could full well being carrying grass knot, no doubt it is a popular move. You want to conserve Swampert so you switch out, but the Infernape user predicting this nasty plots/swords dance, whatever, and then proceeds to sweep you clean. That is what you are saying can very well happen with Salamence vs Swampert, so why not the same with Infernape? Why is it that because Salamence could do this, it is UBER where Infernape can do the same yet it is certainly not uber?
Originally Posted by Fat kokoloko
As a matter of fact, I don't mind the heavy centralization around Dragons and Steels. What I do mind mind though, is having to tiptoe around motherfucking Salamence every single time shows his face - and even that not being enough.
Well I don't know about your experience on the current Standard ladder (please enlighten me) but from what I have seen it is far from the centralized metagame pre Lati ban. In fact, it is more BALANCED than the Salamence less ladder. I gave reasons for this in my first post. Why do you tiptoe around it so much more than other threats such as Infernape, Suicune, Zapdos etc. You have made clear you have trouble with Salamence, but WHY does that mean it is broken? You could be under preparing for it, I don't know, but the fact is not everyone has trouble against it, which means it can't be this unstoppable wrecking ball you make it out to be.
Originally Posted by Fat kokoloko
Nah, we don't have to predict a lot of the time - try every single time.
it shouldn't matter if people predict right or wrong - its the fact that they are forced to do so every single time, just to try and keep their team members alive, and the fact that only Salamence has this effect that makes him Uber.
Give me proof you have to predict every single time. Give me proof that ONLY Salamence has this apparent effect. Heck, give some proof that he is Uber.
I think one of the main reasons Salamence should be considered Uber is the move Roost. This elevates it beyond the reaches of threats such as Infernape or Tyranitar. If Tyranitar had something like Slack Off (that also halved its fighting weakness at the same time) I think it would be Ttar that would be considered uber.
Couple this with Salamence having moves like Draco Meteor and Outrage that even its checks and counters fear you have a poke that is extremely hard to counter (especially more than once).
Obviously when a Salamence appears on the field you don't think game over but you will have a definite way to attempt to deal with Salamence (if you don't that's pretty stupid) and the fact that you have to have a certain playstyle and it is almost impossible to play around makes it Uber.
I hate to say this because I actually prefer the Latias-free Salamence inclusive metagame and I'm too new to competitive pokemon to have experienced it before.
However, it seems strange that before Latias came along Salamence was not considered Uber, so I think people should let the metagame with Salamence gain stability before making their minds up completely, even if there is only 3 or so months left.
Couple this with Salamence having moves like Draco Meteor and Outrage that even its checks and counters fear you have a poke that is extremely hard to counter (especially more than once).
Obviously when a Salamence appears on the field you don't think game over but you will have a definite way to attempt to deal with Salamence (if you don't that's pretty stupid) and the fact that you have to have a certain playstyle and it is almost impossible to play around makes it Uber.
I hate to say this because I actually prefer the Latias-free Salamence inclusive metagame and I'm too new to competitive pokemon to have experienced it before.
However, it seems strange that before Latias came along Salamence was not considered Uber, so I think people should let the metagame with Salamence gain stability before making their minds up completely, even if there is only 3 or so months left.
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This isn't about Latias, and it's not the cheaters tier, if anything, using Latias in OU is more like cheating hahaha.
Though, Latias kind of kept Mence in check since it could switch in on EQ's and Fire Blasts and absolutely destroy mence on turn 2. :/
This isn't about Latias, and it's not the cheaters tier, if anything, using Latias in OU is more like cheating hahaha.
Though, Latias kind of kept Mence in check since it could switch in on EQ's and Fire Blasts and absolutely destroy mence on turn 2. :/
Well, before I knew that salamance was even put on the suspect, I had fights normally on shoddy. Whenever DDmence would come or any other set, I usually had no problem taking him out. Using Rotom-H, Gliscor, and Metagross resisting most of his attacks, coming on brick breaks and etc. It really was fine, but I have never felt that salamance is threat that keeps breaking my team, if i have to i come in on a draco meteor with blissey, and counter with a nice ice beam.
I don't think Salamance is that bad, its not that hard to deal with, but if people are having trouble (a good amount btw) then maybe he should be uber.
But if its really a nuisance to people, take him out, I really don't mind. Although why make him uber? It seems smarter just to leave him be, but do whatever is necessary
I don't think Salamance is that bad, its not that hard to deal with, but if people are having trouble (a good amount btw) then maybe he should be uber.
But if its really a nuisance to people, take him out, I really don't mind. Although why make him uber? It seems smarter just to leave him be, but do whatever is necessary
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