Can you not post like you're being antagonized for a second? Chess and Pokémon aren't "completely different" games, and even if they were, the fundamental connection that I was trying to make with the analogy holds. I wasn't trying to say, "Salamence is like the queen, therefore it's OU." I was merely saying that it was an interesting comparison. They're both easily the most powerful "pieces" in their metagames, but more importantly they both play roles for their metagames beyond that. Being "easily the best" is not an argument for Salamence being Uber; there are other, better arguments for both sides of the debate.kokoloco said:And I don't know who compared Salamence to the Queen, in chess, but that is probably one of the worse analogies you can make. Pokemon can never, ever, EVER, be compared to chess - they are two completely different games. Chess is a game of perfect information while Pokemon is not. When you see the Queen you know what it can do and you can prepare for it easily by setting up traps and/or obstacles. When you see Salamence you have no fucking clue what it's going to do. Go ahead, take a guess and be wrong 50% of the time. Its not fun to have to tiptoe around the fucker every single time you see him; what makes it worse is that even if you take every precaution in the world, you're still going to lose a pokemon - no matter what. No other pokemon in the game can do that and that's an indisputable fact.
ugh... wall of text....Salamence should be put is OU.Ever since latias is put in UBER, all of the OU dragon metagame has 4X weakness of all ice moves (except for kingdra). It has low defence and sp.defense, I think some online players have replaced Latias with salamence. If salamence is put in UBER then there is (not?)much option for them to replace salamence (to=with) other dragon pokemons. The fact that dragonite is very slow without dragon dance, unless they want to abuse its extreme speed and kingdra has moderate attack but has low movepools and it is usually paired with rain dance in the OU metagame.
Furthermore, there is already a dragon UBER tier, rayquaza. Although both of them gain access of dragon dance and salamence is faster but rayquaza can learn extreme speed and has higher stats than salamence (except speed). It has air lock which is extremely useful as most UBER teams carry groudon, kyogre or both.This clearly shows that salamence does not stand well in UBER battle at all.Thus i feel that salamence should be put in OU forever.
Wouldn't this make your team Lucario weak, as in insta 6-0ed? I'm pretty sure Gliscor is key for successful hail teams, assuming you have a restalk rotom > scarf.Luring out ape is easy, with the addition of Skarmory to my team over Gliscor. I then Brave Bird on the Nasty Plot.
I am not posting as if I'm being antagonized; maybe I come off as an asshole because I've always been very nonchalant about the way I speak. If I came off as an asshole, I apologize - however my opinions about the analogy stand true.Can you not post like you're being antagonized for a second? Chess and Pokémon aren't "completely different" games, and even if they were, the fundamental connection that I was trying to make with the analogy holds. I wasn't trying to say, "Salamence is like the queen, therefore it's OU." I was merely saying that it was an interesting comparison. They're both easily the most powerful "pieces" in their metagames, but more importantly they both play roles for their metagames beyond that. Being "easily the best" is not an argument for Salamence being Uber; there are other, better arguments for both sides of the debate.
If you think about it, the queen has the same "you basically have to sac somebody" quality that Salamence does. The difference, of course, is that queen-countering strategies are easy to see, where as with Salamence it's not so easy much of the time due to imperfect information. If that difference makes Salamence Uber, so be it. Suffice to say that the analogy helps to contextualize some of these arguments at worst, and potentially even helps the Uber arguments at best. The analogy puts to the forefront what Aeroblacktyl said earlier and others have since echoed. I think that his point was a very important one, whether you agree with it or not.
As an aside, Pokémon (well, ADV, at least) has been compared to chess before, not in how good/deep they are but in the similar aspects.
It may just be me but it seems all you have done is described an effective wallbreaker...Newest post by this person...
Unfortunately, This will get you flamed. At best, only DD has surefire 'counters', yes you can predict for mixmence but those aren't called counters. Brings me onto my next point.....Do most people know how to play against Salamence....does it require you to up your game to the point where you don't think you should have to work that hard?and most teams should have a counter to it as it is.
It may just be me but it seems all you have done is described an effective wallbreaker...
Why does Salamence instantly require a sacrifice? Why can't you use intelligence to make educated assumptions about the set (as multiple people have said e.g. mence comes in on a 70% Swampert...what is he going to do...).
Making assumptions like that is what good Salamence players rely on. You immediately assume that I'm going to Draco Meteor just because I came in on a weakened Swampert so you switch out, allowing for a free DD. Besides, even if I do Draco Meteor and you bring in lets say, Jirachi, I weakened the shit out of it and will kill it with EQ unless you win the speed tie. What else can you bring in thats relatively safe from any of Salamence's sets? Nothing.
This is exactly my point, you're being forced to either play a crazy guessing "prediction" game which eventually boils down to a 50-50 shot because I can just as easily outpredict you.
Why is it that you can predict around Infernape and not Salamence? Some may say Infernape has hard counters and that is why Salamence is more threatening, but what is a hard counter when it has a 4 x weakness that Infernape could just choose to muscle through(Gyara)? Or when another can be set up on easily by multiple threatening pokes (e.g.Breloom on Vaporeon).
The thing is, you don't have to predict around Infernape. Yes infernape can specialize to beat some of its counters, but then it leaves itself open to other, potentially more dangerious, counters. Salamence doesn't even have to specialize to beat anything, that's the problem.
Let's touch on this.
What is it that makes Salamence much more deadly than Infernape? Infernape can run even more sets that can be potentially just as threatening (I'd say more threatening).
While I do agree that, in terms of versatility alone, Infernape is far more dangerous than Salamence, you have to consider the fact that Infernape hits nowhere near as hard as Salamence. This gives you a hell of a lot more breathing room to counter / play around it, since none of your pokemon are in immediate danger of dying.
Have we simply developed a hatred of Steel/Dragon centralization and want a change of scenery, even if heavy centralization remains?
Because of the recent Latias ban, are we just assuming Salamence poses a similar threat?
As a matter of fact, I don't mind the heavy centralization around Dragons and Steels. What I do mind mind though, is having to tiptoe around motherfucking Salamence every single time shows his face - and even that not being enough.
I for one have not been convinced that Salamence poses a significantly larger threat than other top sweepers in the tier.
Is it the fact that you have to predict against Salamence alot of the time, is this what is getting to people? Perhaps the haters just predict wrong alot of the time?
Nah, we don't have to predict a lot of the time - try every single time.
it shouldn't matter if people predict right or wrong - its the fact that they are forced to do so every single time, just to try and keep their team members alive, and the fact that only Salamence has this effect that makes him Uber.
Does Salamence give a representation of the skill level of both players using it (on a larger scale than the average poke)... I do agree that it punishes misplays/mispredictions more than alot of the tier, but is this a valid enough reason for Uber?
Short answer? Yes.
There are no reliable counters to Salamence, otherwise there would be no problem.It seems as if as of late, everyone and their brother whines about how any Dragon type with an attacking stat of 100+ and with good speed should be Uber. Salamence should remain where it is, being that there good checks to it ready, and most teams should have a counter to it as it is. Unfortunately, this isn't always the case sadly.
No. Just no.I think I agree with SushiOnToast. I'm not convinced either that salamence is a larger threat sweeper than others. I mean in my opinion a timid adaptabilty porygon-z is sick,just the other day I tested the strategy. A timid adaptability porygon-Z with choice specs and hyper beam....took out a lot of poikemon(it was like it was using horn drill) I guess if porygon-z had a base speed stat of 100 or more, it would probably be banned to!
Since when did every poke have to have Hard counters? The concept of pokes needing counters was pretty much gone with the D/P metagame being established. Stop acting like having no hard counters is a easy way to become UbersThere are no reliable counters to Salamence, otherwise there would be no problem.
If you read the rest of my posts, instead of singling out just one part of the argument, you would know that that is not the point I'm trying to make.Since when did every poke have to have Hard counters? The concept of pokes needing counters was pretty much gone with the D/P metagame being established. Stop acting like having no hard counters is a easy way to become Ubers
Does anyone here feel that the Suspect metagame is a lot like the UU metagame? What with everyone running Celebi, Vappy, Heatran, Dragonite as opposed to Venusaur, Milotic, Arcanine, Altaria... Offensive teams are also similar, with the Infernapes, Lucarios, Gyarados over Blazikens, Sceptiles, Ferligatrs...
Good Salamence players don't rely on their opponents playing like that, and there is no guarantee that the Swampert user would switch out meaning a dead Mence most likely, but tbh reasoning like you've provided (not that I can even see much reasoning in your post) doesn't prove anything. ''omg someone can predict something and they could get punished if they are wrong'', this is true with SOOOO many things. I have already said in my first post that sure, if you mispredict then you can get punished, albeit moreso than if you mispredicted against a less offensive threat, but that doesn't change the fact that MISPREDICTIONS CAUSE BAD SHIT, you can name any number of things that can seriously hurt you if you mispredict. Why is this down to Salamence??? If anything, this is the fault of the player. You haven't addressed why predicting against Salamence is so 50/50 as you say. It isn't 50/50 at all unless you fail to take into account the battle so far.Originally Posted by Fat kokoloko
Making assumptions like that is what good Salamence players rely on. You immediately assume that I'm going to Draco Meteor just because I came in on a weakened Swampert so you switch out, allowing for a free DD. Besides, even if I do Draco Meteor and you bring in lets say, Jirachi, I weakened the shit out of it and will kill it with EQ unless you win the speed tie. What else can you bring in thats relatively safe from any of Salamence's sets? Nothing.
This is exactly my point, you're being forced to either play a crazy guessing "prediction" game which eventually boils down to a 50-50 shot because I can just as easily outpredict you.
Physical Mixape with Close Combat, Overheat, ThunderPunch, Mach Punch is certainly not over specializing to beat Gyarados, this is a GOOD moveset for a standard physical ape. Please give names of these COUNTERS because you are just throwing that phrase about when it comes to Infernape without saying what these oh so good counters are. What is Infernape more open to in running that set? Heck, CC,Overheat,TPunch & Uturn is more than acceptable as an alternative and this walks all over every 'counter' that is at the forefront of my mind.Originally Posted by Fat kokoloko
The thing is, you don't have to predict around Infernape. Yes infernape can specialize to beat some of its counters, but then it leaves itself open to other, potentially more dangerious, counters. Salamence doesn't even have to specialize to beat anything, that's the problem.
Contradiction much. You say that Infernape is far more dangerous in terms of versatility yet you have more room to play around it? Actually you say 'hell of a lot more'. Why aren't things in immediate danger with Infernapes impressive movepool? Picture this: Infernape vs Swampert , this is no different than your Salamence on Swampert theory of swampert switching out. Infernape could full well being carrying grass knot, no doubt it is a popular move. You want to conserve Swampert so you switch out, but the Infernape user predicting this nasty plots/swords dance, whatever, and then proceeds to sweep you clean. That is what you are saying can very well happen with Salamence vs Swampert, so why not the same with Infernape? Why is it that because Salamence could do this, it is UBER where Infernape can do the same yet it is certainly not uber?Originally Posted by Fat kokoloko
While I do agree that, in terms of versatility alone, Infernape is far more dangerous than Salamence, you have to consider the fact that Infernape hits nowhere near as hard as Salamence. This gives you a hell of a lot more breathing room to counter / play around it, since none of your pokemon are in immediate danger of dying.
Well I don't know about your experience on the current Standard ladder (please enlighten me) but from what I have seen it is far from the centralized metagame pre Lati ban. In fact, it is more BALANCED than the Salamence less ladder. I gave reasons for this in my first post. Why do you tiptoe around it so much more than other threats such as Infernape, Suicune, Zapdos etc. You have made clear you have trouble with Salamence, but WHY does that mean it is broken? You could be under preparing for it, I don't know, but the fact is not everyone has trouble against it, which means it can't be this unstoppable wrecking ball you make it out to be.
Give me proof you have to predict every single time. Give me proof that ONLY Salamence has this apparent effect. Heck, give some proof that he is Uber.Originally Posted by Fat kokoloko
Nah, we don't have to predict a lot of the time - try every single time.
it shouldn't matter if people predict right or wrong - its the fact that they are forced to do so every single time, just to try and keep their team members alive, and the fact that only Salamence has this effect that makes him Uber.