The First Smogon Council - Salamence

[Heartgold]

Outrage is not needed for the first kill, Draco Meteor + Fire Blast/EQ does fine, and that also means he isn't always going to use Outrage right afterwards. Maybe your team was created so that Salamence is easily handled by your team, that could be why you don't fear it, but thats centralising the metagame, and still an argument for uber status.

Not really, guess my team happens to be mence free trouble,however saying that mence is a pokemon to look out for and fear of.

Exactly my point, mence had the draco meteor + fireblast/earthquake combo pre-platinum, yet no one complained and happily accepted mence in OU. It took you guys 3 years to say mence was broken, outrage is a fantastic move, but does have its drawbacks. I'm not seeing mence uber with it.

 

[Quantumpencil]

While I'm not informed enough to contribute to this thread a great deal, I do think that the "grandfathering clause" argument seems a little dubious at best, because pre-platinum was an extremely different meta-game. For the majority of the D/P days no one complained about Salamence because:

I - Salamence was overshadowed by a much more powerful threat, in Garchomp, who was both better at mence's job than mence, and capable of revenging mence without relying on a speed tie.

II - Salamence didn't get Outrage, and this made the dragon dancing set much less destructive.

III - Cresselia was much more viable, and was a top-notch answer to Salamence (Especially, before it got Outrage)

 

[SubVersion]

Yes you did, you COMPELETELY DISREGARDED EVERY DECISION FOR MENCE BECOMING UBER. You/some said that you can't make x pokemon uber just because x pokemon can do what others cannot, we have listed many reasons that Salamence should be uber, and now you are saying that you can't just ban him because he has no VIABLE COUNTERS, and can switch in rather easily with decent defesnses + resists + intimidate.

Holy fuck you are immeasurably stupid. I didn't say any of this. The other people who responded to my post understood it perfectly, why the fuck can't you? It seriously isn't hard: I specifically said that Salamence possessing a unique trait does not make him broken unless the trait itself is broken. Saying that having "no viable counters" makes him broken is a fine argument; Saying he's broken just by virtue of being unique is not.

If you still don't understand then don't even bother responding because I'm not going to continue arguing with someone who lacks even a basic understanding of simple logic.

Moving on...

Ok, but that's not what I said, I was responding to weak arguments like "sacrifice something weak to get your check in".

Okay, but aren't you the same person who has been advocating that "Salamence always gets a kill", that you have to "predict like a god [to not get beaten by him", etc? Even though there are plenty of common situations a Salamence will find itself in where it can't really do much at all?

Then again, it probably isn't because my lead beats yours. See how easy this is?

"It probably isn't" is a pretty stupid thing to say considering that there are only two fast Taunt leads that see common usage and they don't even necessarily beat the other common leads anyway. In fact, taking a turn to Taunt most likely means that you either don't get Rocks up yourself (against prioty or Scarf leads, Metagross comes to mind) or you do, but at the expense of your own lead and without even breaking my lead's Sash. Seriously, "rocks probably isn't up because my lead beats yours"? Did you even stop to think about that nonsense before you posted it?

(And what if my SR user isn't my lead...?)

SR is a common battle condition, like it or not. If you don't want to factor it in to your arguments, then you're only hurting your own chances of being taken seriously.

it's about the fact that Salamence makes this prediction game worse than any other OU because:

The question you're glossing over entirely is why the fuck should this matter? Proving that he makes prediction "worse" than other OUs does not prove that "making prediction worse" is itself a broken quality. You're trying to tell me that Salamence should be Uber just because he does a particular thing better than his OU peers, and that's... dumb.

This question is even more pressing considering your use of the word "worse" is entirely subjective. While you might hate the prediction games that Salamence forces, others might enjoy it, and they certainly wouldn't describe it as "worse". You haven't given any supportive arguments for it actually being "worse" rather than perhaps "more challenging" (and pretend all you want, but you're not relying on pot luck/russian roulette against Salamence. I've already had this discussion a bunch of times and I'm not going to bother having it again with you, so look at my previous posts if you care what my arguments have been).

So to summarise: Showing that Salamence can do something other OUs can't - in your case, "make predictions worse" - isn't actually an argument for Salamence being Uber, its an argument for Salamence being different. You're free to start explaining why this difference is broken at any time... And just maybe you'll come up with something a little more convincing than the dull logic you offered me here.

 

[Heartgold]

While I'm not informed enough to contribute to this thread a great deal, I do think that the "grandfathering clause" argument seems a little dubious at best, because pre-platinum was an extremely different meta-game. For the majority of the D/P days no one complained about Salamence because:

I - Salamence was overshadowed by a much more powerful threat, in Garchomp, who was both better at mence's job than mence, and capable of revenging mence without relying on a speed tie.

II - Salamence didn't get Outrage, and this made the dragon dancing set much less destructive.

III - Cresselia was much more viable, and was a top-notch answer to Salamence (Especially, before it got Outrage)

Here we go Outrage, Outrage, Outrage....well if you think mence gaining outrage has made it uber, I wouldn't think so, its a type of moves that traps mence and kills it, yeah you may get a kill on your opponent with that nice 180BP move only resisted by steel, your mence is going down too cuz there's no way you can switch out, is there now?

Garchomp I do agree with. I still stand by Garchomp in OU, but that's another matter.

Cresselia, well it was okay-ish, I wouldn't think it was used all that often or didn't work too well, with T-tar running around it wasn't a great counter for mence to start off it.

 

[Shizzle]

Immeasurably stupid am I?

Just as an aside...

The "no other Pokemon can do X" argument is not a viable argument. A Pokemon being unique in any respect just means that the Pokemon is unique, not that it is broken. So saying that "no other Pokemon can do what Salamence can do" is just as much an argument for his banning as "no other Pokemon can do what Smeargle does" would be for banning Smeargle. You need to show that the things Salamence does make him too good for OU; Simply showing that he is the only one who can do them proves nothing.

Not aimed at anyone in particular, just the thread in general, since this argument seems to keep cropping up even though it really shouldn't.

Im fairly sure that disregards nearly every thing presented for him being Uber, we [pro uber for mence] are showing why he should be uber!

>STAB Moves + Coverage, extremely powerful moveset
>Stats zZzz
>Nothing can come in safely to take a hit
>If wrong set is predicted it can be GG right there, although this is somewhat similar to other sweepers, but not to the extent of MixMence and DDmence.

We are showing why he should be uber, you pointing out that 'no other Pokemon can do X' is not what we are even on about >.>

 

[Shock Trooper]

Immeasurably stupid am I?


Im fairly sure that disregards nearly every thing presented for him being Uber, we [pro uber for mence] are showing why he should be uber!

>STAB Moves + Coverage, extremely powerful moveset Of course.
>Stats zZzz Yea.
>Nothing can come in safely to take a hit Uhhh
>If wrong set is predicted it can be GG right there, although this is somewhat similar to other sweepers, but not to the extent of MixMence and DDmence. Uhh

We are showing why he should be uber, you pointing out that 'no other Pokemon can do X' is not what we are even on about >.>

I really don't like how prediction consistently comes up in everybody's arguments on either side. Prediction is not a valid argument to use because it can go either way. Mence still has to predict even though it is very powerful. I can think of several situations where this can occur, such as Mence deal with a Specially Defensive Gyarados which is attempting to lure an Outrage, but there's a steel type looming in the back wings, or coming in on a Foretress with the mixed set, but having to predict whether a Scarf Heatran may come in to take the predicted Fire Blast and force Mence out. There's a lot of situations like these, so please stop using prediction as an argument.

One thing that hasn't really been discussed is how much residual damage Mence is taking every battle. First, I want to point attention to the teammate statistics of Salamence, as well as the May stats. Tyranitar is not only Salamence's most common teammate, but the third most common Pokemon used in standard play. This accounts for Sandstorm damage that Mence will be taking in a lot of battles it participates in. Second, Stealth rock needs to be taking into account, because it is on almost every single team out there. Mence will be taking 25% every time it switches in. Third, there's Life Orb to be accounted for once Salamence attacks. This means the following:

25% Stealth Rock entry
7% Sandstorm
10% Life Orb Recoil

This amounts to 42% that Mence has lost just by coming in and attacking once. This allows it to get a lot of priority checks, Scizor being the most notable. Residual damage is really one of Salamence's crippling points. Enough to bring it down from suspect status? Not really, Mence still has all of that power behind it. However, Residual damage is one of the key things that I feel is keeping Mence from leaving OU for good.

 

[Shizzle]

@Shock Trooper, I 100% agree, thats the main thing IMO holding it back, however as long as it is still alive, its going to be hurting, a lot, and rapid spinners are not too uncommon, what with Salamence and Gyarados around, also Sand Storm allows Salamence to meet easier 2HKOs on those who attempt to wall it. ie. 252 HP / 252 Def Suicune, did the calcs a few pages back, DM + Outrage would be like 100% kill if DM on the switch and Outrage next turn.

@SushiOnToast, thanks for the input, you are a true comedian, and a really cool kid, teach me sometime how to be cool like you, yeah?

 

[Misa]

25% Stealth Rock entry
7% Sandstorm
10% Life Orb Recoil

This amounts to 42% that Mence has lost just by coming in and attacking once. This allows it to get a lot of priority checks, Scizor being the most notable. Residual damage is really one of Salamence's crippling points. Enough to bring it down from suspect status? Not really, Mence still has all of that power behind it. However, Residual damage is one of the key things that I feel is keeping Mence from leaving OU for good.

As stated a couple pages back, SR and Life Orb recoil is a huge deal for Mence, since he takes a chunk of damage when he switches in due to Life Orb + SR weakness. Heck, this refers to how most people thought Skymin was OU even though it was a hell of a lot more dangerous compared to Mence.

and yes, Stealth Rock will be up most of the time. The argument "my lead is faster than yours" doesn't cut it since I could be carrying an Aerodactyl (which is the fastest lead in OU), and set up Stealth Rocks from there.

Also, the argument about predicting things do not count for Mence being uber or not since one wrong move could potentially cause Mence's demise. This goes for almost all sweepers as well. For example, Bronzong and Metagross could predict a Mence outrage and OHKO him, while CS heatran could come in on a Fire Blast and OHKO him from there. Salamence is a powerful sweeper, but it just does not have the "o I can spam draco meteor to 2HKO stuff" mentality like everyone is stating.

 

[Boondocker]

I really don't like how prediction consistently comes up in everybody's arguments on either side. Prediction is not a valid argument to use because it can go either way. Mence still has to predict even though it is very powerful. I can think of several situations where this can occur, such as Mence deal with a Specially Defensive Gyarados which is attempting to lure an Outrage, but there's a steel type looming in the back wings, or coming in on a Foretress with the mixed set, but having to predict whether a Scarf Heatran may come in to take the predicted Fire Blast and force Mence out. There's a lot of situations like these, so please stop using prediction as an argument.

One thing that hasn't really been discussed is how much residual damage Mence is taking every battle. First, I want to point attention to the teammate statistics of Salamence, as well as the May stats. Tyranitar is not only Salamence's most common teammate, but the third most common Pokemon used in standard play. This accounts for Sandstorm damage that Mence will be taking in a lot of battles it participates in. Second, Stealth rock needs to be taking into account, because it is on almost every single team out there. Mence will be taking 25% every time it switches in. Third, there's Life Orb to be accounted for once Salamence attacks. This means the following:

25% Stealth Rock entry
7% Sandstorm
10% Life Orb Recoil

This amounts to 42% that Mence has lost just by coming in and attacking once. This allows it to get a lot of priority checks, Scizor being the most notable. Residual damage is really one of Salamence's crippling points. Enough to bring it down from suspect status? Not really, Mence still has all of that power behind it. However, Residual damage is one of the key things that I feel is keeping Mence from leaving OU for good.

Can someone please explain to me how if residual damage is a valid arguement ho-oh is still uber?

 

[Objection]

Can someone please explain to me how if residual damage is a valid arguement ho-oh is still uber?

Residual damage is not automatically invalid just because a 4x SR weak pokemon is Uber. In that case, the residual damage argument is simply not strong enough to beat the pro-Uber arguments because those arguments are very strong.

 

[Misa]

Can someone please explain to me how if residual damage is a valid arguement ho-oh is still uber?

Overall stats/defenses and statistics. Ho-oh takes neutral hits way better compared to Mence, which makes Ho-oh more durable.

 

[Vratix]

On another note: I have recently changed my opinion on the Suspect ladder. It is fun because my Regigigas is quite viable in it's stall-centric environment. The only thing that would make me like it better is if Articuno started popping up.

So, I would like to retract my previous statement that the Suspect ladder does not make more Pokemon useable. It certainly has done that, the problem is that not enough people are using them yet. This realization has actually moved me from being opposed to the Salamence ban to being more neutral concerning ol' Sally. I am not sure, nor do I think I ever will be sure, that Salamence's possible ban is justified. However, everyone's complacency with it removed from the picture there are many fun opportunities to exploit on the people with the 'I can relax and be a Stall-douche because Mence isn't here" mentality.

-Edit-

Can someone please explain to me how if residual damage is a valid arguement ho-oh is still uber?

Overall stats/defenses and statistics. Ho-oh takes neutral hits way better compared to Mence, which makes Ho-oh more durable.

Also, it is easier to change the weather conditions the crap away from SS in Ubers with Groudon/Kyogre in Ho-oh's (who more than likely not be taking LO recoil either) favor cutting the residual damage to almost only SR. Plus if you are using a Ho-oh you will more than likely have a spinner to help with SR whereas Mence does not necessarily justify one.

 

[haunter]

Please stop all the insults and flames going on in this thread. Insulting others won't make your points stronger.

At this point it seems pretty clear that an argument can be made for both sides: Salamence has stats, typing and learnset that make it hardly counterable in OU, but ot the other hand its SR weakness and the residual damage from life orb and SS - which can be assumed as "standard battle conditions" - give it usually no more than 2 switch ins.

Please just use this thread to share your thoughts and experiences on the ladder, and try to keep the discussion on the tracks of civility and politeness. Failing to follow these simple guidelines will automatically result into an infraction.

 

[xdevo13]

(thank you Haunter)
Shaymin has had a large boost in usage thanks to the lack of Salamence and Latias.
What set do people use? I've used a Leech Seed offensive set (no Sub).
EDIT oh yay 99th post!

 

[Baldafor]

i didnt know salamence DDs and OUTRAGES in the same turn, so bringing in swampert on a DD and than ice beaming mence isnt a counter? and like RL said, no competent player is going to blind outrage with DD MENCE without a damn DD unless its absolutely needed to win a game

I am saying that I personally never use Dragon Dance. I understand that most people generally use Life Orb, but I choose to use Band. If I think you have a Swampert to get me on the Dragon Dance, I choose either Dragon Claw or Outrage depending on how much residual damage you may have. If I remove Swampert, the rest of my team has a much easier time winning, so job accomplished.

So, no, Salamence doesn't need to DD at all to beat Swampert. +zero (no Dragon Dances) Salamence with Life Orb (I personally use Choice Band) 2HKO's Swampert without sandstorm with rocks >98% of the time. If you switch in a steel after the first Outrage, which is really too late at that point as Swampert is toast later, I have a 50% chance on the second Outrage to snap out of it, and freely switch out.

Edit: Okay, let's stop yaking and play, I'll show you that Salamence being gone is the best thing.

 

[Game Freak201]

Okay, I have a question to ask. What makes Salamence Uber? If you're going to use the prediction argument, I'll just point out it can go both ways. If you're going to use the "OMG Wall Breaker Kills Stuff" argument, I'll point you towards a better wall breaker. I'm not blindly advocating that Salamence should never get banned. I would gladly switch sides if a good enough, logical reason is given to me to take this stance.

 

[Stylish Interval]

(thank you Haunter)
Shaymin has had a large boost in usage thanks to the lack of Salamence and Latias.
What set do people use? I've used a Leech Seed offensive set (no Sub).
EDIT oh yay 99th post!

I was testing out some Grass types on my team and I went through Shaymin, Sceptile, and Breloom and I found Shaymin (SubSeed) to be the best. I tried Life Orb but I really didn't like Seed Flare missing or Heatran switching in, and I like using Leech Seed to force switches (or heal my own Pokemon!). It's also good for when people switch in Scarf Heatran and I get to Earth Power. (I run it > HP Fire because I can handle Scizor already and they aren't as common anymore!) I don't really see a reason that Shaymin wasn't used before (maybe Scizor + Latias was keeping usage down?) but I like it on my team and I might try it out in Standard and see how it fares there in comparison.

 

[xdevo13]

I used a Leftovers viariant on the Offensive set (Seed Flare, Earth Power, Hp Fire, and Leech Seed). It worked really well with all the Lefties Heatran around. Dragonite always switch in on him but, still pretty good. I really love Leech Seeding Blissey and then getting the secial def. drop, hehe.

 

[Toaster]

Now with the shitstorm out of the way, I guess I'll tell the experience I enjoyed in the suspect metagame.

Cleric Dragon Dance Dragonite is currently my favorite set. Heal bell, and that special bulk made it somewhat easy to get a few Dragon Dances out of its belt, then proceed to sweep, It also acts as a useful teammate, curing problematic status out of the way for both itself and other fellow teammate. The only thing I found somewhat annoying was that it was unable to get past roarers like Skarmory, but other than that its still a very fun set. Winning many games for me.

Regarding Shaymin, I'm glad it has the chance to shine in this environment. Life Orb Seed Flare hurts a ton, particularly when backed up by a growth. Although the rise of Heatran and Infernape is doing no favors, you can back that up with a bulky water or Starmie. I have yet to test out any Shaymin set other than my own through.

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

Uh.....grass types were always good. Latias was the only limiting them, not Salamence...

Latias limits them in the way that more people felt inclined to use Scizor to stop so grass types had to waste it's Hidden Power slot on being slower and using Fire. The regular OU ladder doesn't have nearly as much Scizor so it's not a result of Salamence.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Adding on Aeroblacktyl's post:

We will be asking for information relating to your rating and deviation on both the suspect and standard ladders in addition to inquiring about any recent and relevant tournament success/participation.

...Which means everyone posting about their experiences on Suspect ladder (a Menceless, Latiasless metagame) should also post about their games on the Standard ladder (only Latiasless). We've had the two dragons together for a year and a half, coming now and saying Suspect is so much better because Scizor dropped down and Shaymin's finally shining shows you're kinda off the track on this whole testing.

 

[nesan]

(thank you Haunter)
Shaymin has had a large boost in usage thanks to the lack of Salamence and Latias.
What set do people use? I've used a Leech Seed offensive set (no Sub).
EDIT oh yay 99th post!

I've been using a set with See Flare, Hidden Power Fire, Psychic and Earth Power! It has been working out great without Salamence and Latias! IMO the lack of Salamence can really help the BL Pokemon get in to OU!

 

[Jaxx]

I can see Heatran becoming a problem if Salamence goes. I mean the increase in usage is crazy. No surprise though. Heatran is a beast. Who else thinks Heatran might become more of a problem?

 

[Obsessed]

I can see Heatran becoming a problem if Salamence goes. I mean the increase in usage is crazy. No surprise though. Heatran is a beast. Who else thinks Heatran might become more of a problem?

Heatran isn't a problem in the same way Salamence is though (not saying Mence is Uber).

Heatran usage is high because a lot of people are using the Celetran + Water defensive core on their stall teams.

 

[Jaxx]

Oh I don't think Heatran will be the same way Salamence is but I just have a feeling that if Mence goes he will become more so of a problem.