The First Smogon Council - Salamence

[Stylish Interval]

Oh I don't think Heatran will be the same way Salamence is but I just have a feeling that if Mence goes he will become more so of a problem.

I'm not sure why you think that? Salamence couldn't beat Heatran, so with the same Pokemon and possibly more to check / counter Heatran, why would it be more of a problem?

Related to the ladders, I'm seeing a ton more SubTrans on Suspect than Standard. None really are using Toxic, though, which I find odd.

 

[Jaxx]

I'm just saying the suspect ladder shows an increase in usage of Heatran. I was just asking if anyone would think he would become a problem. It was just a feeling geez.

 

[Rhiehn]

If you get outpredicted, it kills something. That's not exactly exclusive to Mence. Play around Mence, don't give him the chance to come in for free, if you play your cards right, he won't, Saying "if my opponent outplays me and gets mence in with no damage he almost always gets a kill if he outpredicts me" doesn't exactly sound very uber worthy to me.

 

[Boondocker]

Now with the shitstorm out of the way, I guess I'll tell the experience I enjoyed in the suspect metagame.

Cleric Dragon Dance Dragonite is currently my favorite set. Heal bell, and that special bulk made it somewhat easy to get a few Dragon Dances out of its belt, then proceed to sweep, It also acts as a useful teammate, curing problematic status out of the way for both itself and other fellow teammate. The only thing I found somewhat annoying was that it was unable to get past roarers like Skarmory, but other than that its still a very fun set. Winning many games for me.

Regarding Shaymin, I'm glad it has the chance to shine in this environment. Life Orb Seed Flare hurts a ton, particularly when backed up by a growth. Although the rise of Heatran and Infernape is doing no favors, you can back that up with a bulky water or Starmie. I have yet to test out any Shaymin set other than my own through.

Yeah dragonites a dick. I had one suvive my flygons outrage and ko me earlier with dragon claw. Also i run sub seed shaymin and it gets a decent amount of kos/ragequits.

 

[Revolution.Z]

Oh I don't think Heatran will be the same way Salamence is but I just have a feeling that if Mence goes he will become more so of a problem.

Maybe but it doesn't pose quite the same movepool as mence and also speed is the main difference between these two.

 

[RaikouLover]

I realized I never fully explained why I don't believe Salamence is uber. Let me put this shitfest to bed once and for all!!!!

Okay, so going back to the Uber characteristics:

Offensively.. a pokemon must sweep the majority of the metagame with little or no effort. This implies that by Salamence entering the field, it will sweep you or take down 2-3 pokemon on your team easily and consistently. Does Salamence do this? A lot will argue yes he does but he doesn't for a few reasons I'll even break it down by his set!

Mixmence: Very fast and threatening.. however, Draco Meteor can get you one kill before you have no special attack left to kill Bronzong / Skarmory with Flamethrower. Also, Mixmence is outsped in OU by Aerodactyl, Jolteon, Weavile, Starmie, Azelf, Gengar, and Infernape and for all intents and purposes, lets add Flygon to that list since its only OU set ever used is Choice Scarf. What do all of these pokemon have in common besides being faster than Salamence? They all can do serious damage to cripple and knock out Salamence. Don't believe me? Lets do some calcs:

Aerodactyl: Rock Slide, 76.7% min damage (OHKO with SR)
Jolteon: Specs Thunderbolt, 83.4% min damage (OHKO with SR)
Jolteon: LO Thunderbolt, 72.5% min damage (80% OHKO with SR)
Jolteon: Hidden Power Ice, 100% min damage
Weavile: LOL.
Starmie: LO Ice Beam, 182% min damage (uhhh OHKO?)
Azelf: LO Psychic, 75% min damage (OHKO with SR)
Azelf: Explosion, 158% min damage
Gengar: LO Shadow Ball, 69.2% min damage (53% OHKO with SR)
Gengar: LO Explosion, 100% min damage
Infernape: LO Stone Edge, 88% min damage (OHKO with SR)
Inernape: LO HP Ice, 100% min damage
Flygon: LOL

So due to the dominance of faster threats, Mixmence won't be sweeping through the vast majority of the metagame with relative ease.

But hes a great wall-breaker? No, Salamence is a tempo pusher and a tank destroyer, not a wall breaker.. Mixmence requires incredible prediction to break walls and even then it STILL can't break through a stall team. I know this because I've used mixmence for a long time and while he is good at punishing tanks, he does NOT defeat dedicated walls that have recovery.

Say you want to SPAM Draco Meteor against a stall team? You will be met with Blissey every time. If you try to beat her with Outrage, you will end up meeting a Skarm to stall you out, or Forretress to just explode on you. Draco Meteor + Outrage while it can remove one threat it leaves Salamence defeated and useless for the game. While you are stuck into Outrage either getting stalled out, losing 17% per turn thanks to Life Orb and Sandstorm, or met with the next pokemon coming in, who will not be the benign tumor on your finger.

So what about DDMence?

What the fuck about him? Dragon Dance Salamence has a dilemma. Dragon Claw lets him sweep better, but loses a lot of power. 6 out of the top 20 pokemon are steels, and the #1 pokemon on 27% of teams can take an Outrage and retaliate for AT LEAST 59% damage!!! How do you Outrage through steels before confusion sets in long enough to sweep most of a team? Lets look at the steels:

Scizor: Bullet Punch, 59% minimum damage, can take an Outrage at +1 (so he 2HKOs you on revenge)
Heatran: Dragon Pulse, 79.8% minimum damage (OHKO with SR), can take an Outrage.
Heatran: Explosion, 100% minimum damage
Jirachi: Not only can he take an Outrage, but he could be faster than you and just Ice Punch you for 100% minmum damage before you can attack!
Metagross: Explosion... not to mention Shucca Berry lets it survive Earthquake. Also has Meteor Mash + Bullet Punch which does.. 93.1% minimum damage.
Lucario: cannot take an outrage, but LO Extremespeed does 40.5% minimum damage so keep your health high!
Bronzong: Explosion.. 100% minimum damage.
Bronzong: Gyro Ball... 58.9% minimum damage (41% OHKO with SR thanks to LO), (100% OHKO with Sandstorm, LO)
Skarmory: Whirlwind last resort.

With that being said, since EVERY team has a steel (Doug can probably make a statistic on that) its hard to see Salamence just blasting through the metagame, especially when ALL of the top 20 steels have a way of threatening mence.


So what about the Support characteristic? Does Salamence aid in helping others sweep?

Well of course it does, but not more than any other pokemon because it requires prediction and strategy to do this. Using Salamence and Gyarados together with Salamence Draco Meteoring Porygon2 while Gyarados sweeps is not Salamence being uber!!!! Its called a lure!!! Salamence would be Uber if it had an ability that prevented walls from doing anything and guarrentees (I know the spelling is wrong, sue me) their elimination COUGH COUGH COUGH WOB.. or your team has a significant team disadvantage just by facing him (if you want to use that as an argument, I suggest you read up on the Smogon tutoring program.)


What about the defensive characteristic?

With a 4Xs Ice and 2Xs Stealth Rock weakness and mediocre defensive stats, Salamence isn't walling the vast majority of the metagame. I think that is something we ALL can agree on!

Salamence is guarenteed a kill!!!!

No, hes not. He is just a very deadly unpredictable pokemon. The same can be said about any pokemon that can has more than one set with two different counters. Admittedly, Salamence two sets are evenly split, but that does not mean other pokemon don't have sets that have completely different counters. Mixape is countered by Vaporeon, Tentacruel, and Gyarados, all of whom get absolutely steamrolled by Swords Dance ape. Lucario is countered by Gliscor, Salamence, and Gyarados, all of whom can be switching into a Specs Hidden Power. Gengar hates Blissey, who can be switching directly into an Explosion or a Focus Punch... That is just the nature of mixed pokemon... While Salamence may be more ideal than the others for this on OU, he certainly does not have enough umph to be uber based on this surprise alone.

 

[broodjekebab]

I like how you say Flygon is only ever used with a scarf, yet take Azelf and even Aerodactyl as viable pokemon to threaten mixMence.

 

[RaikouLover]

Just because people are too ignorant to use Azelf and Aerodactyl as anything other than SR death fodder doesn't mean they can't be legit checks. That has nothing to do with Salamence's uberness. Apparently we should be nominating Scizor, since he nerfs them...

With a bit of EV tinkering and Sandstream Support Aerodactyl can actually switch in and stall out Salamence's Draco Meteor

 

[blasphemy1]

RaikouLover, the main problem with your theory is that Salamence threatens all of its checks with just Draco Meteor / Earthquake / Fire Blast / Outrage and Life Orb, or it can threaten your entire team with a DD set. No other Pokemon boasts this, and in comparison to Salamence we can say Infernape, Lucario, and even Gengar, all have four move slot syndrome. I'm not leaning one way or another, but that argument is entirely flawed. If there were a Dragon-type that matched Salamence's speed and power, then it would probably be up for suspect as well. However, by virtue of Salamence being the only one, he is compared to Infernape and Gengar, whose STAB's are great but nothing close to dragon.

 

[Aura Guardian]

Please, can we get back to experiences on the ladders?

BTW, I tried Mence on OU and Dragonite in Suspect, and Dragonite actually did better (though my OU team was not my best work.)

 

[blasphemy1]

Please, can we get back to experiences on the ladders?

BTW, I tried Mence on OU and Dragonite in Suspect, and Dragonite actually did better (though my OU team was not my best work.)

I've noticed the same, actually. I don't know if it has to do with players simply not preparing for a powerful dragon, or if Dragonite is just able to thrive when Pokemon like Flygon, Jirachi, etc, aren't running Choice Scarfs to outrun Salamence.

 

[SubVersion]

One interesting thing to note about the May statistics released a few days ago (which are kind of tainted by the fact that Salamence wasn't the only thing removed, but whatever) is that the only Pokemon that seems to have actually "become viable" is Shaymin. Pretty much all the other Pokemon are the same, aside from coming in at different places. Funny how removing not one, but two supposedly overpowered, dominating, centralizing forces has made exactly one new Pokemon viable!

I think we're starting to see tentative proof that people are getting confused between what is actually viable, and things that still aren't viable but aren't quite as bad as they used to be. Any claims to the Suspect ladder being more diverse, with more viable Pokemon, are starting to look pretty unfounded.

Do I think Salamence is good for the metagame? According to the stats, a metagame with Salamence has six more Pokemon than a metagame without him (or four more if the loss of Salamence and Latias is not counted), so yes, I do think that's a good thing.

 

[SJCrew]

No, it's just that nobody gives a shit about Dragonite. I don't even prepare for it, since it's slower than the world and usually gets swept along with everything else on the team. Not having Intimidate dampens its ability to do anything at all about physical threats, and it's really not even bulky enough to survive much more than Salamence without.

 

[blasphemy1]

One interesting thing to note about the May statistics released a few days ago (which are kind of tainted by the fact that Salamence wasn't the only thing removed, but whatever) is that the only Pokemon that seems to have actually "become viable" is Shaymin. Pretty much all the other Pokemon are the same, aside from coming in at different places. Funny how removing not one, but two supposedly overpowered, dominating, centralizing forces has made exactly one new Pokemon viable!

I think we're starting to see tentative proof that people are getting confused between what is actually viable, and things that still aren't viable but aren't quite as bad as they used to be. Any claims to the Suspect ladder being more diverse, with more viable Pokemon, are starting to look pretty unfounded.

Do I think Salamence is good for the metagame? According to the stats, a metagame with Salamence has six more Pokemon than a metagame without him (or four more if the loss of Salamence and Latias is not counted), so yes, I do think that's a good thing.

We won't see any substantial effects of the removal of Latias for the months to come. Same thing with Salamence on the suspect ladder.

 

[SubVersion]

We won't see any substantial effects of the removal of Latias for the months to come. Same thing with Salamence on the suspect ladder.

What? We've already seen substantial effects of the removal of Latias/Salamence. There are six fewer Pokemon in OU after only one month!

 

[RaikouLover]

RaikouLover, the main problem with your theory is that Salamence threatens all of its checks with just Draco Meteor / Earthquake / Fire Blast / Outrage and Life Orb, or it can threaten your entire team with a DD set.

A check threatens out a pokemon. A check does not have to switch in to anything.. that is why it is a check.

No, it's just that nobody gives a shit about Dragonite. I don't even prepare for it, since it's slower than the world and usually gets swept along with everything else on the team. Not having Intimidate dampens its ability to do anything at all about physical threats, and it's really not even bulky enough to survive much more than Salamence without.

I fail to see how a pokemon with the same base stat total, a larger movepool and only 20 less speed is so much less of a threat than Salamence. Dragonite will still sweep ur ass with Dragon Dance.. 2HKO anything with Choice Band.. and Stallbreak with Draco / Fire move / Superpower (what Salamence wish it could have).. so I don't see how hes "not a threat to prepare for" Also, your making Dragonite with his 91 / 95 / 100 defenses sound frail.. Okay so he doesn't exactly counter Lucario but that is really the only time Intimidate matters when your using him as a fucking DDer. "Intimidate lets him set up easier." <-- Yeah "base 80 def and no EVs lets him get revenged by Bullet Punch easier" ..............................

 

[xdevo13]

What? We've already seen substantial effects of the removal of Latias/Salamence. There are six fewer Pokemon in OU after only one month!

That is most likely caused by the lack of N00bs on the suspect ladder, the constant battling of lower CRE members is likely what keeps Electivire, Weavile, Dusknoir and co. in OU.



People please don't restart this shitstorm.

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

Lol uh what? Salamence doesn't do shit to stop Heatran. Salamence gets 2HKO'd by Fire Blast with SR down alone. If you're using old MixMence, you can't even OKHO it before getting killed, unless you wanna try to stall it out of Fire Blasts lol (or you outright lose if you didn't think it was a ScarfHeatran).

Not to mention if they're using SubHeatran, your Heatran/Salamence switch in is fucked anyways. Water switch in, you're going to have to worry about potential Explosion, which opens up so many other sweeps, which would then put Heatran in the same boat as Salamence right now.

 

[SJCrew]

Even though there are plenty of common situations a Salamence will find itself in where it can't really do much at all?

lol, "plenty of common situations". If you have a wall on your team that isn't Blissey, a slower sweeper, or any choiced Pokemon with a move Salamence resists, MixMence can get in and do damage.

Okay, but aren't you the same person who has been advocating that "Salamence always gets a kill", that you have to "predict like a god [to not get beaten by him", etc? Even though there are plenty of common situations a Salamence will find itself in where it can't really do much at all?

Dude, Draco Meteor and Outrage are some strong ass moves on a strong ass Pokemon only resisted by one type, who basically gets to cover everything else. If I come in on a physical wall, I can generally expect to get a kill right then and there unless you also happen to have Scarfed Steel type like Jirachi or Heatran. But keep in mind that once I know you have them, that's probably the only time they're coming in safely.

In a more likely scenario, however, you're bringing in a slower Steel or Blissey to take the Draco Meteor. Salamence has a follow-up attack to beat both of them. Then you switch to something that will take the likely follow up attack, racking up both attack and residual damage for your team while Salamence is still in there laughing at you. If you manage to have everything the doctor ordered, and get all of your predictions right, you can successfuly force Salamence out; however, Salamence is not dead, so that means you have to keep doing this until it is. Classic Mixmence will basically dump on you since it has Roost and can use it on any predicted switch.

And then, funnily enough, all of those scenarios are ruined if Salamence uses Dragon Dance instead. From where I stand, that sounds like at least two kills, and possibly the end of the game.

If you want to talk about real matches, look no further than the above examples. And to be honest, it's nothing short of ridiculous. Do you really have to do all that shit to counter Infernape or Dragonite? Nope. Neither of them have half the switch-in potential, Dragonite is slower, threatens less, can't stop most physical sweepers, and can't get past two of Salamence's common DD checks. And I can pretty much hit the LOL BULKY WATER button to take out Infernape.

Seriously, "rocks probably isn't up because my lead beats yours"? Did you even stop to think about that nonsense before you posted it?

It's called playing experience. I use Aerodactyl on almost all of my teams now because it's effective as both a lead and anti-lead. Most users attack Aero right away, knowing that it has Taunt and a majority of the players using it will do so mindlessly. However, if I take the initiative to strike right away as well, both of our sashes are broken and I have the advantage because I'm faster. My opponent will usually switch and wait for another opportunity, allowing me an opportunity to either hit the switch-in or SR myself. Either way, they don't get SR.

If I'm facing Aerodactyl or Metagross, that's when shit gets tricky and I usually have a backup plan for it. I can either SR or Taunt on the first turn, and usually SR is the better idea, though keep in mind I still have the option of ensuring my foe doesn't get rocks up by assuming I'll switch right away and can get Aero out of there to Heatran or Infernape before it gets hit with Bullet Punch.

Again, there is no such thing as perfect prediction, so Aerodactyl obviously isn't autopreventing SR. But still, if I'm using a fast Taunt lead and you're not, I generally have the momentum advantage and you probably won't have time to SR for a while. Salamence can come in at any point and Draco Meteor your face before it has to deal with Stealth Rock.

 

[KurashiDragon]

I realized I never fully explained why I don't believe Salamence is uber. Let me put this shitfest to bed once and for all!!!!

Okay, so going back to the Uber characteristics:

Offensively.. a pokemon must sweep the majority of the metagame with little or no effort. This implies that by Salamence entering the field, it will sweep you or take down 2-3 pokemon on your team easily and consistently. Does Salamence do this? A lot will argue yes he does but he doesn't for a few reasons I'll even break it down by his set!

Mixmence: Very fast and threatening.. however, Draco Meteor can get you one kill before you have no special attack left to kill Bronzong / Skarmory with Flamethrower. Also, Mixmence is outsped in OU by Aerodactyl, Jolteon, Weavile, Starmie, Azelf, Gengar, and Infernape and for all intents and purposes, lets add Flygon to that list since its only OU set ever used is Choice Scarf. What do all of these pokemon have in common besides being faster than Salamence? They all can do serious damage to cripple and knock out Salamence. Don't believe me? Lets do some calcs:

Aerodactyl: Rock Slide, 76.7% min damage (OHKO with SR)
Jolteon: Specs Thunderbolt, 83.4% min damage (OHKO with SR)
Jolteon: LO Thunderbolt, 72.5% min damage (80% OHKO with SR)
Jolteon: Hidden Power Ice, 100% min damage
Weavile: LOL.
Starmie: LO Ice Beam, 182% min damage (uhhh OHKO?)
Azelf: LO Psychic, 75% min damage (OHKO with SR)
Azelf: Explosion, 158% min damage
Gengar: LO Shadow Ball, 69.2% min damage (53% OHKO with SR)
Gengar: LO Explosion, 100% min damage
Infernape: LO Stone Edge, 88% min damage (OHKO with SR)
Inernape: LO HP Ice, 100% min damage
Flygon: LOL

So due to the dominance of faster threats, Mixmence won't be sweeping through the vast majority of the metagame with relative ease.

The main problem with these pokes is that they can't come in on a salemence without getting hit and either becoming fodder or getting killed, unless something is killed before they do in which case mixmence has done its job already. Also it can just switch out to the bane of "most" of these pokes, scizor/t-tar.


But hes a great wall-breaker? No, Salamence is a tempo pusher and a tank destroyer, not a wall breaker.. Mixmence requires incredible prediction to break walls and even then it STILL can't break through a stall team. I know this because I've used mixmence for a long time and while he is good at punishing tanks, he does NOT defeat dedicated walls that have recovery.

Say you want to SPAM Draco Meteor against a stall team? You will be met with Blissey every time. If you try to beat her with Outrage, you will end up meeting a Skarm to stall you out, or Forretress to just explode on you. Draco Meteor + Outrage while it can remove one threat it leaves Salamence defeated and useless for the game. While you are stuck into Outrage either getting stalled out, losing 17% per turn thanks to Life Orb and Sandstorm, or met with the next pokemon coming in, who will not be the benign tumor on your finger.

So what about DDMence?

What the fuck about him? Dragon Dance Salamence has a dilemma. Dragon Claw lets him sweep better, but loses a lot of power. 6 out of the top 20 pokemon are steels, and the #1 pokemon on 27% of teams can take an Outrage and retaliate for AT LEAST 59% damage!!! How do you Outrage through steels before confusion sets in long enough to sweep most of a team? Lets look at the steels:

Scizor: Bullet Punch, 59% minimum damage, can take an Outrage at +1 (so he 2HKOs you on revenge)
Heatran: Dragon Pulse, 79.8% minimum damage (OHKO with SR), can take an Outrage.
Heatran: Explosion, 100% minimum damage
Jirachi: Not only can he take an Outrage, but he could be faster than you and just Ice Punch you for 100% minmum damage before you can attack!
Metagross: Explosion... not to mention Shucca Berry lets it survive Earthquake. Also has Meteor Mash + Bullet Punch which does.. 93.1% minimum damage.
Lucario: cannot take an outrage, but LO Extremespeed does 40.5% minimum damage so keep your health high!
Bronzong: Explosion.. 100% minimum damage.
Bronzong: Gyro Ball... 58.9% minimum damage (41% OHKO with SR thanks to LO), (100% OHKO with Sandstorm, LO)
Skarmory: Whirlwind last resort.

With that being said, since EVERY team has a steel (Doug can probably make a statistic on that) its hard to see Salamence just blasting through the metagame, especially when ALL of the top 20 steels have a way of threatening mence.

I semi agree in this case. This is pretty much a perfect senario which would make you a hypocrite if you ever said to someone that they were doing a perfect senario. (If you didn't disreguard that.) The thing about this though is that not only should someone with even the most basic knoledge of set up sweepers bring in their salamence late when this stuff has been taken care off, but also that salamence would have earthquake to take care of alot of those threats and a rare fire blast ddmence would take care of the rest.

So what about the Support characteristic? Does Salamence aid in helping others sweep?

Well of course it does, but not more than any other pokemon because it requires prediction and strategy to do this. Using Salamence and Gyarados together with Salamence Draco Meteoring Porygon2 while Gyarados sweeps is not Salamence being uber!!!! Its called a lure!!! Salamence would be Uber if it had an ability that prevented walls from doing anything and guarrentees (I know the spelling is wrong, sue me) their elimination COUGH COUGH COUGH WOB.. or your team has a significant team disadvantage just by facing him (if you want to use that as an argument, I suggest you read up on the Smogon tutoring program.)

I won't say that is guarentes a kill every game but mixmence's job is to punch holes through the opponent's team and with that coverage combined with just a little more speed than dragonite makes the mixmence set broken to the point of filling the support category.

What about the defensive characteristic?

With a 4Xs Ice and 2Xs Stealth Rock weakness and mediocre defensive stats, Salamence isn't walling the vast majority of the metagame. I think that is something we ALL can agree on!

Agreed.

Salamence is guarenteed a kill!!!!

No, hes not. He is just a very deadly unpredictable pokemon. The same can be said about any pokemon that can has more than one set with two different counters. Admittedly, Salamence two sets are evenly split, but that does not mean other pokemon don't have sets that have completely different counters. Mixape is countered by Vaporeon, Tentacruel, and Gyarados, all of whom get absolutely steamrolled by Swords Dance ape. Lucario is countered by Gliscor, Salamence, and Gyarados, all of whom can be switching into a Specs Hidden Power. Gengar hates Blissey, who can be switching directly into an Explosion or a Focus Punch... That is just the nature of mixed pokemon... While Salamence may be more ideal than the others for this on OU, he certainly does not have enough umph to be uber based on this surprise alone.

The thing about those examples is they're all incredebly frail. Mence can boast high defensive stats along with pretty much the same mixed capabilities all your examples has.

I could've sworn haunter said that this back and forth argument is getting repetitive and needs to stop. I didn't like your post which is why I had to respond to it.

Back on the topic we're supposed to be discussing. The suspect meta and how it's going without salamence.


To the few who were wondering a few pages back about lanturn's stead in the suspect enviorment, I've done a few battles with it and I can honostly say this.

It's outclassed by alot of bulky waters. I ran a wish vaporeon set before changing to special defensive lanturn and I had a much harder time with lanturn than with vaporeon. Mostly because without a good recovery I can never keep lanturn in on things that vaporeon would be capable of walling. I'm gonna keep testing lanturn but I would like more opinions on lanturn if anyone would care to test it in the suspect meta.

 

[Tayla]

That's because the Lanturn set Jonathan created, and the set that was mentioned before, is meant to gain boosts from Charge Beam and attack from behind subs. It's not meant to necessarily wall things, but still has decent bulk behind it to come in on bulky waters, Jolteons, etc.

 

[PK Gaming]

And I can pretty much hit the LOL BULKY WATER button to take out Infernape.

Watch it dude. NP Ape OHKO's standard Vaporeon, Crocune (with Hazards) and Gyarados takes some serious damage from GK. (OHKO with Hazards unless specially bulky)

Carry on though.

 

[SJCrew]

That's where Infernape's massive movepool works against it; it has to have a different set to beat each of its counters, and there's a lower chance to encounter that set because usage is dispersed between all of them. Once you see SD or NP rather than the usual mixed, you can switch straight to the counter for that set. And by "counter", I mean Gengar/Starmie. It's also pretty disheartening to attempt a sweep with a 70% accuracy move, but I suppose some people like taking the risk.

 

[SubVersion]

That is most likely caused by the lack of N00bs on the suspect ladder, the constant battling of lower CRE members is likely what keeps Electivire, Weavile, Dusknoir and co. in OU.

Not only is this completely unsubstantiated - how do you know that there are less "n00bs" on the Suspect ladder? What is it that makes a person a "n00b" in the first place? - it is also says more about the OU game than it does about Suspect. If noobs are the only reason that the pool of OU Pokemon is such a healthy size - as opposed to being barely any bigger than Ubers - then that suggests that there's a lot more wrong with Standard OU than just Salamence.

It's called playing experience. I use Aerodactyl on almost all of my teams now because it's effective as both a lead and anti-lead. Most users attack Aero right away, knowing that it has Taunt and a majority of the players using it will do so mindlessly. However, if I take the initiative to strike right away as well, both of our sashes are broken and I have the advantage because I'm faster. My opponent will usually switch and wait for another opportunity, allowing me an opportunity to either hit the switch-in or SR myself. Either way, they don't get SR.

You're seriously trying to bust out theorymon'd prediction wars to support your case? And you want me to take this seriously? Okay, if you predict your opponent's prediction, and they don't predict your prediction of their prediction, etc etc etc, then they don't get Stealth Rock up. What if they just use Stealth Rock while you attack, though?

You're right in saying that Aero isn't automatic SR prevention. But you're absolutely wrong in saying that SR "probably isn't up". To prevent Stealth Rock with Aerodactyl (without saccing him, and without losing your own ability to set up SR, either case being a better result for your opponent than it is for you), you have to predict "100% perfectly". According to you, predicting 100% perfectly is completely unreasonable when dealing with Salamence... So why do you take your own perfect prediction more or less for granted here? There's no "probably" about this; Your faster Taunt lead might stop SR, or it might not. No guarantee, no particularly increased probability. It just "might". Factor SR out of the equation at your own peril, because I guarantee your arguments won't be representative of common battle conditions (ie. the conditions most important to the Characteristics of an Uber) without it.

 

[Vratix]

If I'm facing Aerodactyl or Metagross, that's when shit gets tricky and I usually have a backup plan for it. I can either SR or Taunt on the first turn, and usually SR is the better idea, though keep in mind I still have the option of ensuring my foe doesn't get rocks up by assuming I'll switch right away and can get Aero out of there to Heatran or Infernape before it gets hit with Bullet Punch.

Again, there is no such thing as perfect prediction, so Aerodactyl obviously isn't autopreventing SR. But still, if I'm using a fast Taunt lead and you're not, I generally have the momentum advantage and you probably won't have time to SR for a while. Salamence can come in at any point and Draco Meteor your face before it has to deal with Stealth Rock.

You mention Metagross as a bulky Standard lead but not Swampert? Who will 2HKO with your Sash. Even if you do taunt it, like you said most people will just attack expecting the Taunt in the first place leaving you to either suicide SR and leave his lead at full health or do laughable damage as he (barring flinch hax from Rock Slide) wrecks your Aerodactyl?

Why did people stop mentioning Swampert as a Sala-check? Last I checked they were almost all running Ice Beam or Avalanche anyway and can switch in against the DD variation. Granted he'll take a boatload of damage from LO Draco Meteor, but really most any non-Steel will.