Bye bye Latias! Bring in the apes...

[blasphemy1]

Tell me I've made a mistake here somewhere:

+2 LO Naive Infernape Focus Blast vs 4/252 Calm Blissey: 78.22% - 92.02%

Now I don't see all that many reasons to run Close Combat any more... Especially since that blob is OHKO'd after two SR switch-ins.

You run the risk of getting paralyzed if you miss, but other than that Focus Blast is generally preferred. A lot of players are running NP / Focus Blast / Fire Blast / Vacuum Wave, which leaves Dragonite to set up on it. I wouldn't be surprised if we start to see NP / Focus Blast / Vacuum Wave / HP Ice because Focus Blast pretty much annihilates any steels (107.9% minimum to 252 HP / 0 SpD Jirachi), while HP Ice covers Celebi for the most part (84.2%-99% to 252 HP / 0 SpD). This is assuming a Nasty Plot boost and Life Orb, of course. I can't really see any use for Fire Blast anymore (on the NP set), unless you don't plan on getting the boost.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Tell me I've made a mistake here somewhere:

+2 LO Naive Infernape Focus Blast vs 4/252 Calm Blissey: 78.22% - 92.02%

Now I don't see all that many reasons to run Close Combat any more... Especially since that blob is OHKO'd after two SR switch-ins.

Frankly, Nasty Plot Infernape kinda sucks. No one is switching Blissey INTO infernape.

108 is great speed for a Wall Breaker, but it is beat out by a huge percentage of OU's offensive pokemon, including Gengar, Starmie, Azelf, Jolteon, etc. Then in add in ALL the scarf and priority users, and Infernape really isn't pulling simultaneous kills.

It's a terrific wall-breaker, but it's not going on a multi-kill sweep any time soon because unboosted 108 speed is just too damn easy to revenge kill, especially with those crap-happy defensive stats.

Instead of taking the time to N-Plot, giving my opponent the time to switch in something that would force me out and waste my advantage, I'd rather just spam Overheat or Close Combat (or even fire blast I guess). Plus add in HP Ice's great utility as a reliable move that kills Salamence/Dnite, and N-Plot just seems silly. Even if Salamence were to be banned, I'd still find one of: Thunderpunch (Gyara/Tentacruel), Stone Edge (Gyara/DNight), Mach Punch (Scarftar/Luke), or U-Turn more useful than Nasty Plot.

Looking at the special sponges Blissey, Snorlax and TTar,

as well as the physical Skarmory, Scizor and Forry,

It's clear that Special Fire + Physical Fight is the most efficient way to go.

If I were to run a +2 boost move, I'd rather have Swords Dance, as unlike special, Infernape can achieve near-perfect coverage with just 2 moves (Close Combat + Stone Edge). Even on such a set though, I'd still be running Overheat over Flare Blitz.

 

[shrang]

Boy, I am seeing Shaymin everywhere. Even more than Celebi. The thing is a total ass as well. I am also seeing a whole bunch of random stuff. Would we expect a much larger OU tier next tiering shift??

 

[Chou Toshio]

What do you mean "the next tier shift?"

4th gen will only be the main pokemon gen for 3 more months, because in september pokemon black/white comes out and all the tiers will have to be re-evaluated from the top-down by the council.

 

[shrang]

Yeh, I guess, we should still have one more Gen 4 Tiering shift before 5th gen comes out. I mean, tiering would occur in early September, probably just before 5th gen comes out. Still, we won't be able to accurately get data for 5th gen for quite some time anyway (Unless Shoddy is updated in like 3 weeks or something, which isn't going to happen although we should be able to start playing it on a simulator reasonably soon)

 

[Lucalibur]

What do you mean "the next tier shift?"

4th gen will only be the main pokemon gen for 3 more months, because in september pokemon black/white comes out and all the tiers will have to be re-evaluated from the top-down by the council.

i doubt shoddy will update anything anymore, it will be probably done in shoddy 2, where EVERYTHING will be fixed and added, there is enough time for a last tier change though.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Doug and the other Shoddy guys have it down to a science. I think you will be surprised as to how quickly all the 5th gen stuff will be uploaded onto shoddy once 5th gen comes out (the demand for a 5th gen simulator will be huge).

I give it Nov. 1st at the LATEST that we have a working B&W simulator.

Ok, so I guess we get 1 more round of 4th gen OU. Woo-hoo, that makes this discussion just that much more significant. :P

Sorry for the tough-tsukkomi

 

[pyrzi]

I haven't been to Smogon in a while, but I guess Heracross will be climbing out of its hole now that Cresselia seems to get more popular. Cress is also beat by Tyranitar, who's beat by 'Nape... Who's beat by Cresselia :p

 

[master3669]

Cresselia definitely deserves a push now that latias is banned(and hopefully tyranitar/scizor usage goes down). With a more offensive set, it could beat a lot of the top threats, including infernape(psychic), swampert(grass knot), scizor/skarmory(HP fire), gengar(psychic), salamence and other dragons(ice beam), it could even beat tyranitar with good predictability as a grass knot could actually 2KO with max SP.A EVs + SR support. Now without a competition, Cresselia could shine and maybe even have her seat back in OU.

 

[mtr]

Cresselia faces serious competition with Latias for a teamslot, and now that Latias is gone, Cress is more viable.

I played a few matches on the Suspect ladder, and the new OU seriously resembles UU, with the Dragon/Steel shitfest that was the Latias metagame nowhere to be found, replaced instead by Grass/Fire/Water cores.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Cresselia faces serious competition with Latias for a teamslot, and now that Latias is gone, Cress is more viable.

I played a few matches on the Suspect ladder, and the new OU seriously resembles UU, with the Dragon/Steel shitfest that was the Latias metagame nowhere to be found, replaced instead by Grass/Fire/Water cores.

This rings true to me, as pre-Platinum (and thus pre-latias inclusion), the meta was mostly dominated by bulky offense based on Heatran/Celebi/Zapdos (though I guess Rotom-A fits in here too now)/Bulky Water (generally Vappy, Swamp or Suicune). When Platinum came out, this was reinforced by Bullet Punch Scizor's new presence until Latias came out.

Heatran was #1 on the ladder, for beating other heatran and balancing well with most bulky-offensive line ups.

 

[bubbly]

Togekiss should really be getting a boost in use with Latias gone, and with Salamence looking like being promoted to Ubers soon as well. I love running Encore on it as a surprise, or even BPassing occasionally, just to abuse its versatility and because almost everyone expects either TWave-Slash or NPlot.
Since I'm a diehard Toge fan, I'm hoping that Black and White brings some new improvements for it.

By the way, has anyone seen the newest Corocoro leaks? There's a weird looking psychic type, a desert crocodile with Intimidate and something called Earthquake Spiral which boost attack on a knock out, a chinchilla, and a p9igeon. Plus the legends got confirmed as fire/ and electric/dragon.

 

[c.falcon-arrgh]

now that latias is gone i'm just going to stick with shitty starmie and hope it doesn't roll over and die from a fire blast.

Or maybe i will get a cresselia soon. These are the only 2 counters that i can think of that aren't completely useless otherwise. (slowking/slowbro does the job decently but who the heck uses them...)

 

[The Pokemon Pimp]

IMO NP Infernape isn't bad at all. However, that may be because I run NP/Fire Blast/Grass Knot/Close Combat, so it's more of a wallbreaker.

I really like the use of Shaymin shooting up, I'm not really sure where it's been this whole time :P Might try it out, who knows?

 

[Ice-eyes]

Nasty Plot Infernape isn't that good against offense, but Stall has few answers to it. HP Electric could be used > Fire Blast to hit Gyara and Tentacruel, finishing stall off completely.

 

[The Pokemon Pimp]

I would but I really want that STAB option. And you're right, Nape can get easily outsped by stuff like Starmie in particular. But I love Infernape when it comes to non-scarf Rotom that think they can outspeed. Haha

 

[Ice-eyes]

Oh, TPP, I wasn't talking to you.

I was referring to the NP/Fire Blast/Focus Blast/VacWave set.

 

[Calm Pokemaster]

The above set is gaining popularity in use as a LEAD, substituting Focus Blast for SR. It counters to an extent Heatran and TTar leads, if you are foolish enough to stay and try a KO with Earth Power, which leaves Ape with 4% on standard LeadTran.

Of course, you can predict VacWave and switch to Gengar/Rotom. Or even Dusknoir, which can then KO with Shadow Sneak.


I dont see Ape getting banned though. Its power depends on your lead.

 

[Ericcc]

Yea, like many others on this thread, I've been seeing a LOT more Shaymin now that Latias has been banned.
It's a pain to take out as well, because I never know if it will use Leech Seed, or Rest.

However, once its Seed Flares are all gone, it's a pretty easy hedgehog to take down

 

[Chou Toshio]

IMO NP Infernape isn't bad at all. However, that may be because I run NP/Fire Blast/Grass Knot/Close Combat, so it's more of a wallbreaker.

I really like the use of Shaymin shooting up, I'm not really sure where it's been this whole time :P Might try it out, who knows?

No, nasty plot is bad because it is just dead weight half the time. Infernape doesn't have the bulk to easily set it up, and it's natural speed is not enough to keep it ahead of all the priority users and scarfers (not to mention pokemon who are simply faster). Ice/Electric coverage or U-Turn (or even Equake for Tentacruel I guess) are much more useful to it as a wall breaker. Or else what do you plan to do when Dragonite switches in?

Heck, I'd even find Mach Punch more useful than Nasty Plot I think. The point is Infernape will simply be forced out without the chance to use the boost effectively more often than not-- and no matter how powerful it gets it still can't get over it's issues with speed and bulk making it easily revenged.

Even in late-game sweeping, there are often still scarfers around (as they become even more valuable late game), especially Flygon who owns infernape no matter which STAB Flygon's trying to sweep with. With a plethora of pokemon who do the late-game sweeping better (like LUCARIO), why would I choose Nasty Plot on my infernape? I'd rather make Infernape better at wall breaking.

 

[sora13]

Got this Togekiss from my RMT, it is a Togekiss set i use often.

Togekiss @ Lum Berry
Modest
160 HP / 252 Def / 96 Sp. Atk
-Thunder Wave
-Air Slash
-Fire Blast
-Roost

Well, this clearly isn’t your run of the mill suicide lead, isn’t it? The best way to start a game with flich hax :P. But all kidding aside, I am convinced that this is the best lead in the game currently. Never have I seen something that beats so many leads, gets the ball rolling so effectively and so fast, and survives so long even when in the lead position. In my mind, this only primarily fails to beat Gliscor (Air Slash does 40%), Dragonite(they still get air slashed) , Aerodactyl (damn Taunt), Tyranitar (switch to Torterra) and Trick Scarfers. That’s IT. ALL variants of Metagross leads, with or without occa, are easily 2HKOed by Fire Blast, and Togekiss is faster than standard versions. With the defensive EVs, Meteor Mash will never 2HKO without a attack raise. If they SR, all the better for me. With almost every other lead, I paralyze and proceed to kill with Air Slash flinch hax. Another point I need to reinforce about Togekiss is that it simply does not die. With Roost, I am able to recover from most attacks as well as get rid of my weaknesses, which is the main reason Togekiss survives so long. It can even paraflinch Rotom effectively due to Roost’s effect of negating T-Bolt’s effectiveness! Walls are almost helpess against this guy. Air Slash is decently powerful to take care of most nonresist pokes in around 2-5 hits. Thunder Wave is standard on most Togekiss for a reason, and I have tried Body Slam before, but it was too unreliable for my liking. Fire Blast is really nice for Togekiss, as it 2KOes most Jirachi, Bronzongs, Metagrosses and OHKOes Foretress, Skarmory, and Scizor. Roost is the obligatory recovery move for Togekiss. Lum Berry is really nice, as a lot of people rely on paralyzing Togekiss to stop it, but Lum Berry throws a wrench in there. It also allows it to beat Roserade and Smeargle. This is the Togekiss I used throughout platinum. It easily beats the current trend, Machamp leads.

Some Damage Calcs to demonstrate it’s survivablity:

Defensive Rotom Thunderbolt: 53.6% - 63.8%

Lead Aerodactyl Rock Slide: 49.6% - 58.7%

Lead Metagross Meteor Mash: 42.7% - 50.4%

Lead Metagross Bullet Punch: 17.1% - 20.5%

Togekiss’s Fire Blast against said Metagross(without Occa): 72.5% - 85.7%

New MixMence Draco Meteor: 66.1% - 78.1%

New MixMence Outrage: 51.6% - 61%

Choice Band Scizor Bullet Punch: 37.9% - 44.7%

LO Starmie Hydro Pump: 53.8% - 63.5%

LO Starmie Ice Beam/ Thunderbolt: 57% - 67.2%

 

[mtr]

Shaymin has always been a solid Pokemon, a more offensive counterpart to the defensively played Celebi. The problem with it simply was that it got totally countered by Latias.

 

[1059860]

So what about Grumpig? Thick Fat + Psychic Type.

 

[Bogmire]

dunno if its been mentioned yet (sorry if it has) but LO Zapdos is pretty good right now. max/max timid with tbolt/hp grass/heat wave/roost is a lot harder to wall with latias out of the picture. heat wave can actually 2HKO max hp Rotom and Gliscor too.

 

[Lucalibur]

i tried LO zapdos before, its actually kinda good but snorlax, t-tar, bliss and latias(banned now) walled him to death.