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CAP 11 CAP 11 - Main Typing Discussion

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I am intrigued by familyguyman's Fire suggestion. Fire indeed hits neutral for a lot and lures eqs. weakness to stealth rock is a letdown but we might be able to cover that later.

Im going to say Steel is my official suggestion. It resists ice and rock as well as being neutral to thunderbolts aimed at Togihax. It can lure earthquakes to give kiss a free switch in. Steel just seems like the most well rounded type to me, with good synergy, and descent stab moves, I can see it working well with kiss.
 
In response to smallvizier:

I do therefore change my vote (again) from Poison to Steel, because Poison likely only works with Steel, while Steel may also work with Ghost. I refuse to vote for another Steel/Psychic. Been there done that.

Both of the Steel dual-types I would vote for would have only one weakness that needs to be worried about: Fire, a type that everyone fears using without first scouting for Heatran.
 
Like stated in the Concept Assessment, as Togekiss has a huge special defense bias, we can't assume that its real weaknesses, in the current metagame, match those of its typing.

We should not look at what can hit him super effectiveley, but directly at what can kill him. It doesn't fear unboosted BoltBeams but is hit really hard by strong physical attackers, especially fighters. Bug is irrelevant, as he won't be switching into Scizor and Signal Beam is, well, Signal Beam.

Weak to : Stone Edge, Fighting and Electric mons, Physical hard hitters and Status
Semi-Weak to : Ice (only CB Weavile Ice Punch counters it)
Immune to : Ground, Choiced Ghost attacks
Resists : Grass

While it is true that Steel is immune to toxic, it shares Togekiss' virtual Fighting weakness and would be better with any other flying type than with Togekiss. We can counter Toxic with both abilities and movepool, so I don't think a Fighting weakness is worth a native poison immunity. Flying secondary is obviously bad and Psychic and Poison (lol) don't synergize at all with Togekiss. Ghost/Steel is okay defensively, but has horrible offensive synergy with Flying. This is the main typing discussion topic, but we can't choose a type because we expect its main weakness to be neutralized when no secondary typing can do that and still be effective.

Another important issue with Steel is that it is such a great typing that it will irremediably become a great defensive pokemon, that can work with any ground or fire resist... Since it should also beat Rotom-A, Gengar and Zapdos, it would become Gyarados' perfect mate, and we really don't want that to happen

Furthermore, since Steel CAP11 needs to be neutral to Fighting, it would effectively counter Togekiss... But not Gyarados. Therefore, we run the risk of getting the opposite of the desired effect : shutting down Togekiss, centralizing even more the metagame around steeels and pushing Gyarados even higher.

I don't like Psychic either because, despite being immune to Ghost-typed attacks, Togekiss is countered by Rotom-A and (to a lesser extent) Gengar, so a perfect mate should be able to beat them.

Electric is fine, but it doesn't have enough to offer for a main typing.

Here are my three favorites :

Ground : it's the most obvious way to benefit from Togekiss' weaknesses to Electric and Thunder Wave, and with resistance to Rock is very welcome, as well as SE STAB against Steels, Rock and Electric, it has great defensive and offensive synergy. Poor Special Attacking options is not an issue, since Togekiss should pass him Nasty Plots. Weaknesses to Grass and Water is great, as it lets Togekiss come in easily (apart from strong Waterfalls) and prevents him from being Gyarados' perfect mate. Togekiss doesn't need help against celebi and bulky waters, but Gyarados needs it.
Even though Ice weakness is the least of Togekiss' weaknesses, I can see it be a problem, as there are no good secondary typing choice resisting it. I still think it is a solid option, as T-Wave immunity frees up a slot for Thick Fat, maybe ?


Fighting : My personal favorite. It resists Togekiss' main weakness as well as Stealth Rock and has great synergy with Flying. No wonder Togekiss always run Aura Sphere to complement Air Slash ! Even a specially oriented Fighting mon has many options to beat Blissey, and obviously destroys both TTar and Snorlax. Ice and Electric neutrality for a main typing are good enough, and beating ghosts only takes a SE move. Furthermore, the lack of Fighting-type special attacking options means that it will need NP from Togekiss in order to sweep,while still being a good supporter without it (just like Togekiss with 75 BP Air Slash). Being countered by Celebi is a bonus.
 
After reading all the comments being made so far I have to say that support the following types for CAP11' s main typing: Electric, Fighting, Poison, or Ground. Most of what I want to say about each type has already been said just better worded but I'll give my opinion about them anyway since people feel the need to voices individual reasons. Electric and Rock allows more chances for Togekiss to switch in via attracting Ground moves as well as giving CAP11 a useful STAB to use. Ground is explained beautiful by Rising_Dusk so I don't really need to go into detail about it. Fighting give the duo something that's resisted to Dark (Pursuit), Rock (Stealth Rock), and Bug (U-turn) as well as give a very nice offensive prowess. The only problem with Fighting is the inability to handle ghost types like Rotom - A without nerfing an important resistance Fighting has however it doesn't mean we can't use it now. All in all these four types are nearly perfect for the project and I hope at least one of them wins it.
 
smallvizier said:
bugmaniacbob, you say your favourite type is Rock. Yet Rock also covers none of Togekiss' weaknesses - and it is weak to Fighting, another big problem for Togekiss. It also has weaknesses to Steel and Water, and Togekiss doesn't cover them either. In all we would have SIX types that caused our pairing problems: Electric, Ice, Rock, Fighting, Steel and Water.

Also, you say you think Steel has little synergy with Togekiss. Perhaps you didn't notice resistance to Ice and (crucially) Rock. On top of that, Steel's most dangerous weakness is Ground (all those Earthquakes)... and Togekiss is immune to Ground! That sounds like synergy to me. It gets even better when you consider potential secondary typings, where we're spoilt for choice. Steel/Poison resists Rock and Ice, but is 4x weak to Ground. Steel/Psychic shares Steel's resistances, and also gets STAB to the special-type Psychic attacks, which would be boosted by Nasty Plot. Steel/Ghost is immune to Fighting! Seriously, Steel 'just works.'
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Did you read my post properly? I chose Rock as a typing because it is the strongest offensive complement to Togekiss that there is AND because it is countered by the very Pokemon that Togekiss loves to deal with - bulky Ground-types.

Steel isn't helping us at all because I could take literally any Pokemon in OU and say that it has defensive synergy. We are trying to make a Pokemon that partners more with Togekiss than anything else - this is the point that a lot of you are missing. Steel has no offensive presence, and gives us quite enough deadly weaknesses to be getting on with. Defensive complements are all very well but they mean literally nothing if there is no offensive presence to back them up.

And on the subject of Ground - Resisting two thirds of weaknesses good, shared weakness very, very bad. And to Ice-type moves, of all things. I don't want this combination to run into such a massive problem so early into the build stage, where we've got so much leighway to work with. Ground doesn't really support Togekiss that much - most of what is switching in on Earthquake, Togekiss isn't going to like either. Thunder Wave immunity and Stealth Rock resistance is all very well, but they aren't really top reasons to pair with Togekiss above any other Pokemon.

We should really be focusing on arguments that take the symbiosis of the relationship into account here, rather than most of what I have seen so far, where we just have reasons such as "this helps Togekiss because of X" or "Togekiss can support it with X". The primary type should be able to give a mutual benefit to both parties, where the weaknesses are covered and its strengths guarding for both, which I haven't really seen any conclusive arguments for yet. I'm still waiting there.
 
Interestingly, Gothic Togekiss, of the 6 possible type-combinations of your 4 preferred types, only one has been done before. And I am a big proponent of a new type combination.

I think that Poison/Electric would be the most intriguing combination, as the 4x weakness to Ground is not important (Unless a Dugtrio traps it). Thus the only weakness is Psychic, an attack type not used very much in OU due to the large numbers of Steels as well as Tyranitar.

It would also be able to spread Toxic Poison, Paralysis, and possibly Burn.
 
smallvizier said:
petrie911, Psychic does not cover any of Togekiss' three weaknesses. I understand that there is more to typing than weaknesses and as you mentioned, Fighting is a big concern - but still, Psychic would need to be paired with a type such as Steel to be effective. And if that's not the case, why not just pick Steel for the primary type and consider Psychic as an option in the next thread?
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What does Steel do for Togekiss that it doesn't do for Zapdos? Zapdos actually resists Fighting, unlike Togekiss. Steel covers all of Zapdos' weaknesses, but only 2 of Togekiss'. Steel makes CaP11 into a perfect partner of any number of flying types, not just a perfect partner to Togekiss.

The key things that distinguish Togekiss, typing-wise, from other flyers is its lack of Fighting resistance and its immunity to Ghost. CaP11 should build off that, with a type that is weak to Ghost but resistant to Fighting. Psychic fits the bill, as does Ghost, actually. We should look to them for primary typings, then worry about the other weaknesses at secondary typing.

Psychic also doesn't need Steel. Psychic/Electric and Psychic/Ground have very good type synergy with Togekiss. For Ghost, Ghost/Ground and Ghost/Rock are also intriguing options.
 
petrie, while I do support Psychic, I think everyone'd like to know how Togekiss is supposed to deal with the Ghost once he switches in, because depending on the Ghost being choiced is a poor idea.
 
Poison/Electric is great typing for a number of reasons.

1. It's immunity to toxic is very helpful considering that most Togekiss are Bulky.

2.As srk1214 said, 4X weakness to ground is not important unless of coyrse, dugtrio is there, but hes not exactly the most common OU pokemon. With Togekiss, the Ground Weakness is rendered useless.

3. One of the worries is that togekiss despite being neutral is still weak to fighting. The Poison typing renders this argument uselss, as it resists fighting.

4.Electric is great stab and helps offset poisons poor stab, plus electric can take out the annoying bulky waters.

4. Finally, the only type this is weak to is psychic, which as srk1214 said is not a common type.
 
bugmaniacbob said:
Did you read my post properly? I chose Rock as a typing because it is the strongest offensive complement to Togekiss that there is AND because it is countered by the very Pokemon that Togekiss loves to deal with - bulky Ground-types.
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Sure, you had some very good reasons to pick Rock. I'm just pointing out that there are six very good reasons not to pick Rock, too, in uncovered or shared weaknesses.

Now, this definitely doesn't mean I'm disagreeing with your points. But to bring the discussion forward, I'm mentioning new points that you didn't get around to. Overall I think that the defensive problems of Rock are more severe than the advantages it brings in attack.

bugmaniacbob said:
And on the subject of Ground - Resisting two thirds of weaknesses good, shared weakness very, very bad. And to Ice-type moves, of all things.
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Actually, Togekiss can take Ice attacks quite well. Firstly, they're usually Special moves, and Togekiss has great special defense. Secondly, most of the pokemon using Ice attacks don't get STAB. So it's not as much of a problem as Electric or Rock.

bugmaniacbob said:
We should really be focusing on arguments that take the symbiosis of the relationship into account here [...] The primary type should be able to give a mutual benefit to both parties.
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Example: Ground:

Defensively, Ground is immune to Electric and resistant to Rock - Togekiss' two most important weaknesses. On the other hand, Togekiss is resistant to Grass (which hits Ground hard) and neutral to Water. The only problem is Ice... but as I said, Togekiss can cope with ice, and there area always secondary types to fix that.

Offensively, Ground is an amazing attack to get STAB on. It will take out Electrics and Rocks, which both pose huge threats to Togekiss. It also wrecks Steels, which Togekiss otherwise has no way of taking down. Meanwhile Togekiss can combine Air Slash, flinchhax and Roost to take down... well, everything that isn't Electric, Rock or Steel. That looks like some pretty good synergy to me.

But wait, it gets better! Because Togekiss has to go first to flinch, it can't take paralysis. Lo and behold, Ground pokemon are immune to Thunder Wave.

Basically, there's lots of back-and-forth going on here. Still, Ground is far from the only option... you just have to read the rest of the thread to see that.

petrie911 said:
What does Steel do for Togekiss that it doesn't do for Zapdos?
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Clearly, Zapdos has one of the best part-flying typings with Flying's weakness to Electric and Electric's weakness to Ground both mitigated. It's true that the only typing advantage that Togekiss has over it is the Ghost Immunity.

That gives us two choices. One is to pick a primary typing for CaP11 which is weak to Ghost... Ghost or Psychic. But the other is simply to make choices later which stop Zapdos from working so well with CaP11. This is only the first stage of the process, after all. Making a pokemon which spreads and benefits from Paralysis, and is a special attacker to make use of Togekiss' Nasty Plots, would do a lot to move the focus away from Zapdos.

NARFNra said:
petrie, while I do support Psychic, I think everyone'd like to know how Togekiss is supposed to deal with the Ghost once he switches in, because depending on the Ghost being choiced is a poor idea.
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It's quite possible that Togekiss' movesets would change in response to CaP11. Indeed, it would be a bit odd if they didn't. If CaP11 is Psychic, then Togekiss could start running Shadow Ball more often, and Ghosts would be (a bit) less of a problem.
 
NARFNra said:
petrie, while I do support Psychic, I think everyone'd like to know how Togekiss is supposed to deal with the Ghost once he switches in, because depending on the Ghost being choiced is a poor idea.
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Offensive Rotom-A are nearly always choiced, so obviously their Shadow Balls are not particularly concerning.

Defensive Rotom-A don't actually have that much power. Even STAB, SE Thunderbolt is doing ~50% to Togekiss. Togekiss can Paralyze it, then start regaining HP with Roost and Flinch hax it to death. Resttalk variants usually only 1 STAB attack, so either Togekiss or CaP11 should be able to take it on, depending on which it is. Not to mention Togekiss learns Shadow Ball itself, and may actually be faster than defensive Rotom-A even without paralysis. Oh, and then there's the fun of Encore, which also helps if you accidentally switch into a Tricked Scarf.

Gengar is troublesome, but Psychic-typed CaP11 has STAB Psychic attacks, which Gengar will not like coming in on. Also, only half of Gengar actually carry Thunderbolt, which is good for Togekiss.
 
lets just do water as the primary typing - it lures in grass attacks, is neutral to sr, shares only the electric weakness which the secondary typing/ability can handle, and resists ice. in the meantime, water-type's main problems are breaking through those bulky grass-types and other water pokemon - togekiss can handle this well enough. a combination of surf/air slash, both stabbed, gives a lot of offensive power as nothing really stands up to it. this water should also in theory be able to beat rotom but still have trouble with strong grass-types and fighting-types.

to be honest, im not a fan of any single primary typing but since its not combined with a secondary yet, im obviously not worried. i'll defend my water-typing to the end - to the end i say
 
Really I think we should avoid Ground-typing for the simple reason that 'Soil is already a monster of a Ground-type and partner for Togekiss. What we should do is go for something a little bit different, like Poison-typing. While it gives no inherent advantages (immunity to Thunder Wave, doesn't resist types Togekiss is weak to,) it does give no disadvantages. Thunderbolt is run on a few pokemon who usually do have a way of breaking Ground-types anyway, whether it be through Hidden Power (read: Zapdos, Magnezone) or whether they carry STAB Water-type attacks themselves (see: Starmie, Lanturn) if this CAP can't switch in on these repeated attacks over and over then it isn't going to be very helpful to Togekiss. The reason why I like Poison so much is becuase it's two weaknesses: Ground and Psychic, can be seen from a mile away and Togekiss can switch into them with little harm to itself. Poison-typing also is resistant to strong Fighting-type attacks which Togekiss takes neutral damage from, which can result in a KO.
 
I support Steel for the following reasons-

Excellent type synergy
Resistance to Rock, and to a lesser extent, Ice, is essential. It also draws out Earthquake users and Infernape, which Togekiss handles well. An interesting secondary type would be Fighting or Psychic or Electric or Ghost, which maintain those resistances (Electric gains one) while gaining a useful stab. Fighting takes care of Ttar, Weavile, etc, while Ghost could counter Gengar and Rotom-A which Togekiss has problems with.

Resists Stealth Rock
Vital for safe switching between CAP11 and Togekiss.

Many possibilities for dual typing
As mentioned before, most of the suggested types can pair well with style, in addition to types that might not work well on their own. This trait makes for an interesting CAP, making up for the cliche of a slow, bulky, Steel.

Also, hey. I'm new.
Edit: Another Steel/Ghost CAP might be a little much in hindsight, but my point still stands.
 
I am going to have to go with Ground or Ground/Ghost.

Ground-typing can take hits from many of Togekiss' weaknesses, absorbs Thunder Wave, and is a great offensive typing when paired up with Togekiss, able to take out many of it's threats.

Ghost-typing, while not having as good defensive synergy with 'Kiss than Ground, allows it to better hit Rotom-A, Gengar, etc...which can potentially threaten Kiss before it sets up.


I definitely would like to see other great ideas from everyone else.
 
As with most things, we can fulfill some of the characteristics we seek, but not all of them.

I still stand by my suggestion of poison, but in so doing, resisting stealth rock can only be done with a secondary type of fighting, ground, or steel. The former two are already represented (though I'm not sure how important precedent is in determining that), so on that reasoning it leaves poison/steel. That typing is interesting in that it would really lure in ground attacks but it would have very little offensive use. Being stuck with STAB poison and steel attacks is rather crippling. However, I don't think there are any other ways to resist both fighting and rock. It would be handy if those conditions could be met. I still like the defensive options poison offers though.
 
a rock pokemon seems like the best choice to me here.

It attracts ground and grass. BOTH things that togekiss would love to come in on.


The problem here is that it ALSO attracts fighting pokemon and that rock types commonly attract water pokemon which tend to pack powerful ice attacks which can ruin togekiss. so whatever we choose for its second typing and/or its ability would need to compensate for this. bug and psychic both come to mind there as nifty ways to dissuade fighting, at least.




oh and none of these things cover a weakness to electricity. . . unless the pokemon has motor drive as an ability.... which would be sweet.
 
Sorry but Togekiss doesn't really handle infernape well, it'll probably get CC'd on the switch and unless you're running scarfkiss you're going to die next turn. Steel/Ghost takes care of the general fighting problem but then you're just going to eat some harsh overheat damage.

I think we should really be looking at either Electric/Rock, Electric/Fighting or, hilariously enough, Electric/Ground. CAP 11 should be able to switch fairly freely with Togekiss and there are few types that can lure ground attacks so easily (mainly Electric/Rock) and still resist Stealth Rocks. That and electric can easily paralyze anything that's not ground for Togekiss to proceed to destroy with flinchhax :/

(Though this still leaves us with the fighting problem, but like I said before, fidgit is ALSO a great Togekiss partner with the ability to absorb T-Waves and Toxic as well as resisting fighting type attacks, stealth rocks and being able to spin and set up Toxic Spikes which aids Togekiss' pseudostall intensely)
 
KingEmpoleon, you're right. And I was mistaken to say that poison/steel resists fighting; it is merely neutral to it. This is proving to be much more challenging than I thought.
 
Quilph said:
However, I don't think there are any other ways to resist both fighting and rock. It would be handy if those conditions could be met. I still like the defensive options poison offers though.
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Psychic/Ground does that handily, while also being immune to Electric.

Actually, come to think of it, so do Ghost/Fighting, Ghost/Ground, Ghost/Steel, Poison/Ground, Poison/Fighting, and Psychic/Fighting. Interesting to see that 3 of those are CaP Pokemon types.
 
Psychic/Ground leaves our duo with a pretty glaring weakness to Tyranitar and Weavile though, but I guess as long as the Psychic/Ground pokemon switches into Stone Edge then he could threaten TTar but I'd say there are better options.
 
Scicky said:
Sorry but Togekiss doesn't really handle infernape well, it'll probably get CC'd on the switch and unless you're running scarfkiss you're going to die next turn. Steel/Ghost takes care of the general fighting problem but then you're just going to eat some harsh overheat damage.
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I guess I assumed that CAP11 would be physicall defensive, so much that Infernape would opt for Fire Blast instead, allowing Togekiss to succesfully switch in. And I just ran calcs that say that's not a good idea anyway.

Quilph said:
As with most things, we can fulfill some of the characteristics we seek, but not all of them.

I still stand by my suggestion of poison, but in so doing, resisting stealth rock can only be done with a secondary type of fighting, ground, or steel.
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I think it's more important for the primary type to fulfill characteristics such as resisting Stealth Rock, and at least one other major weakness. While IMO Poison would be a good secondary type, it doesn't really help Togekiss on its own.
 
Poison is an interesting case, similar to electric defensively but has a very nice Fighting resist, as well as a Toxic immunity, and since it will be working with Togekiss, the rarely seen phychic attack is it's only weakness. The problem is it's kind of a one way street - Togekiss covers it's weakness, but it doesn't cover Togekiss's. The cap should really resist rock and at least one of electric and ice, if not both. Unfortunately, the only types that do this are Ground and Steel. With Steel you lose the fighting resist which is kind of crucial to the poison type defensively, and Poison/Ground makes it kind of similar to Fidget, although Poison/Ground does do most of the jobs Tokekiss needs done.

Not to get too carried away with that, I think Fighting is probably the top option mentioned so far, it resists Rock, and unlike Ground you aren't sharing a weakness with Kiss and unlike Steel you aren't gaining a Fighting weakness.
 
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