you forget that suicune has massive defense as well im sure suicune can take +2 outrage like a champion. Vaporeon is beat my pressure stall. Rest for 2 turns not sleep talking. = 6 pp gone for vaporeon and 1 for suicune. Blissey is pressure stalled too. Or we wait for the crit. it cant keep softboiling for long.
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Salamence is Uber.
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you forget that suicune has massive defense as well im sure suicune can take +2 outrage like a champion. Vaporeon is beat my pressure stall. Rest for 2 turns not sleep talking. = 6 pp gone for vaporeon and 1 for suicune. Blissey is pressure stalled too. Or we wait for the crit. it cant keep softboiling for long.
I replied to your post and if your thread got removed (as it should have), you probably didn't get to read it.
Basically what I said is that your thread was posted in the wrong place and that the OP was absolutely ridiculous. Raverish pretty much covered everything I had to say about your thread.
Because you are new to Smogon, I imagine you aren't used to using the search function, so I will post links to the discussion threads concerning Salamence's tiering in hope that it will further answer your questions regarding why Salamence is Uber.
Policy Review discussion: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64977
Stark Mountain discussion: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65012
allright, so what if im new to smogon? i have been playing pokemon since Red version, i know alot about this type of thing, and making Salamence, Latias and Garchomp ubers its just stupid in my opinion, if u read my last post that its in page 3, u will understand what i mean
I don't see my ignorance :/
And Salamence had plenty of counters, just depends upon your set. DD, I'll admit, can be a pain to take down, but after some good LO damage + SR a priority move takes it down.
Grass core? :/
Grass is one of the shittiest types in the game, Salamence or no. It's only real benefit is that it can (somewhat) deal with water types.
That said, water is the most powerful and dominant offensive typing after dragon (rather, it is the second best STAB type, even if most water pokemon are lacking in offensive stats). With Salamence gone, pokemon like Starmie, Kingdra and Gyarados will be more popular for those looking for STAB offensive with terrific neutral coverage. Meanwhile, pokemon like Vaporeon or Suicune will get more use simply to counter the rise of Gyarados (as sadly, one of the best OU answers to enemy water types is more water types).
I guess Grass pokemon could become more popular to deal with that spiraling upsurge, but really only Celebi (and possibly Shaymin) is up to the OU standard of power.
Really though, Grass will always be very "meh" because there are far too many OU pokemon (namely steels, flyers, and light pokemon like Rotom-A) who switch into grass moves far too easily, and without SR weak (save Gyara) there is nothing to stop most bulky water pokemon from switching out to come back later.
Let's just say that in the long-term battle of Water v. Grass, a water pokemon does a lot more overall harm to the enemy than a grass one does (this is discounting breloom since breloom, despite having great power, has no business trying to counter the majority of water types).
It's kinda like the weaklings who clung to the notion of trying to counter Salamence. Even if the counter is shitty (like grass type is shitty), they will use it because of their fearful style of play. Meanwhile, stronger players will think simply to abuse the power of water types themselves.
That is not to deny that Celebi (and shaymin to an extent) are not great pokemon-- they are-- but it is not their grass type that makes them great. Their strength has more to do with terrific base stats, ability (natural cure is great) and unique/good move pools. Still, being grass types (which is still not ideal typing), I see no reason why one should get into the top 10 for instance.
Grass is one of the shittiest types in the game, Salamence or no. It's only real benefit is that it can (somewhat) deal with water types.
That said, water is the most powerful and dominant offensive typing after dragon (rather, it is the second best STAB type, even if most water pokemon are lacking in offensive stats). With Salamence gone, pokemon like Starmie, Kingdra and Gyarados will be more popular for those looking for STAB offensive with terrific neutral coverage. Meanwhile, pokemon like Vaporeon or Suicune will get more use simply to counter the rise of Gyarados (as sadly, one of the best OU answers to enemy water types is more water types).
I guess Grass pokemon could become more popular to deal with that spiraling upsurge, but really only Celebi (and possibly Shaymin) is up to the OU standard of power.
Really though, Grass will always be very "meh" because there are far too many OU pokemon (namely steels, flyers, and light pokemon like Rotom-A) who switch into grass moves far too easily, and without SR weak (save Gyara) there is nothing to stop most bulky water pokemon from switching out to come back later.
Let's just say that in the long-term battle of Water v. Grass, a water pokemon does a lot more overall harm to the enemy than a grass one does (this is discounting breloom since breloom, despite having great power, has no business trying to counter the majority of water types).
It's kinda like the weaklings who clung to the notion of trying to counter Salamence. Even if the counter is shitty (like grass type is shitty), they will use it because of their fearful style of play. Meanwhile, stronger players will think simply to abuse the power of water types themselves.
That is not to deny that Celebi (and shaymin to an extent) are not great pokemon-- they are-- but it is not their grass type that makes them great. Their strength has more to do with terrific base stats, ability (natural cure is great) and unique/good move pools. Still, being grass types (which is still not ideal typing), I see no reason why one should get into the top 10 for instance.
The thing about Baton Pass strategies is that, as you will discover if you start using Shoddy Battle, that they are dismantled entirely by PHazing moves (such as Whirlwind and Roar), Taunt, and Perish Song.
Even your Rampardos is easily stopped by common priority moves such as Scizor and Lucario's Bullet Punch (145.2% - 171.4% and 75.6% - 89.3%, respectively), though most Lucario don't run Bullet Punch. Common Tanks and Walls can take even a +2 Head Smash and proceed to either PHaze you away or OHKO you because of Rampardo's rather unimpressive defenses.
The two good (as in leaderboard-making) Baton Pass teams that I've seen have had fast Taunt users in the lead-position and multiple Taunt abusers in the chain itself to try to mitigate the strategies I listed above, but even then they are entirely beatable and things like Ninjask are not going to be Uber anytime soon. In fact, most players I know laugh at the fact that Ninjask is even still OU!
EDIT: Also, the best recipients in Baton Pass teams are usually strong, bulky Steel types that aren't afraid of priority in the first place.
Well, now that Salamence is gone, it seems that Dragonite and Flygon will be the most viable dragon types in OU with Dragonite leading the way. Also the infamous SalaZone combo will switch to Magnenite or FlyZone. Anyways Mence leaving OU for the rest of gen 4 will allow more underated to pokes (like shaymin land form) to shine in OU. Since Mence was such a great stall breaker then might as well consider this as a viable stall breaker.
I definitely will see increase in Heatran, breloom, celebi, water types, and infernape usage; very similar to suspect ladder.
I definitely will see increase in Heatran, breloom, celebi, water types, and infernape usage; very similar to suspect ladder.
1.How will salamence's removal effect the metagame?
People are going to use non-steel walls a lot, but then when people start taking advantage of this by using Dragonite and CB Flygon, steels are gonna be back and then Dragonite will be suspect. Yes.
2.Will stall be a dominant force?
No, but I definitely think that it will be used more.
3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?
Dragonite.
4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal?
Slightly more effective than the other suspect tests, I guess.
5.How does Salamence do in ubers?
I think that a good player would be able to hit 1700 CRE with a Salamence team but that's about it.
6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?
Scizor.
7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?
Only Shaymin, but it's BL already.
8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?
We have less than a year until B/W, so no.
9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for ubers?
The guessing game that it produced made it a good candidate; it's easy to see why it was voted uber. You can't deny it.
10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?
Dragonite.
People are going to use non-steel walls a lot, but then when people start taking advantage of this by using Dragonite and CB Flygon, steels are gonna be back and then Dragonite will be suspect. Yes.
2.Will stall be a dominant force?
No, but I definitely think that it will be used more.
3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?
Dragonite.
4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal?
Slightly more effective than the other suspect tests, I guess.
5.How does Salamence do in ubers?
I think that a good player would be able to hit 1700 CRE with a Salamence team but that's about it.
6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?
Scizor.
7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?
Only Shaymin, but it's BL already.
8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?
We have less than a year until B/W, so no.
9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for ubers?
The guessing game that it produced made it a good candidate; it's easy to see why it was voted uber. You can't deny it.
10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?
Dragonite.
I use Infernape, EV and IV trained to Attack, it has Mach Punch to be almost the same as scizor, but without Choise Band, if i Baton Pass him with Swords Dance and Speed Boost, he cant be stoped, because he has Rock, Fighting, Fire and Electric moves
Here's the thing about flygon:
Strengths:
-Excellent STAB coverage
-Excellent Survivability (immune/resistant to SR, Spikes, T-Spikes and Sand)
-Immunity to Thunder Wave and Trick-Scarf (Flygon is usually scarf'd)
-Excellent resistances
Weaknesses:
-The thing is just too damn weak. Expect it to do upwards of 27% with STAB Outrage against Suicune. That's WEAK.
The thing really standing in Flygon's way is not steel types perse, it's the overall bulk/health of the enemy. You don't need to kill certain targets so much as you need to weaken the overall team.
If you want to set up a Flygon sweep, it's best to fight until late game, and using Spikes/SR is a much better way to support Flygon than Magnezone. If you get up spikes SR AND make sure the opponent's whole team is hit neutral by Outrage (take out steel types) or Earthquake (take out flyers/levitators), you are pretty much guaranteed to win.
The great thing about Flygon is he needs no turn to setup. You don't need Agility, Swords Dance or Dragon Dance, and you don't even need to worry about switching it in and out. As long as it doesn't take a direct attack, it will easily survive until late game with good health. You can fight normally, weaken the enemy team, and bam-- Flygon will secure the win. It's a totally different play style from any Salamence.
Strengths:
-Excellent STAB coverage
-Excellent Survivability (immune/resistant to SR, Spikes, T-Spikes and Sand)
-Immunity to Thunder Wave and Trick-Scarf (Flygon is usually scarf'd)
-Excellent resistances
Weaknesses:
-The thing is just too damn weak. Expect it to do upwards of 27% with STAB Outrage against Suicune. That's WEAK.
The thing really standing in Flygon's way is not steel types perse, it's the overall bulk/health of the enemy. You don't need to kill certain targets so much as you need to weaken the overall team.
If you want to set up a Flygon sweep, it's best to fight until late game, and using Spikes/SR is a much better way to support Flygon than Magnezone. If you get up spikes SR AND make sure the opponent's whole team is hit neutral by Outrage (take out steel types) or Earthquake (take out flyers/levitators), you are pretty much guaranteed to win.
The great thing about Flygon is he needs no turn to setup. You don't need Agility, Swords Dance or Dragon Dance, and you don't even need to worry about switching it in and out. As long as it doesn't take a direct attack, it will easily survive until late game with good health. You can fight normally, weaken the enemy team, and bam-- Flygon will secure the win. It's a totally different play style from any Salamence.
I'm new to Smogon, in fact this is my first post. And I too have been playing since I got my Red back in the day, surfing up and down the coast of Cinnabar island like every other 8 year old.
But Garchomp's slightly higher speed than base 100, combined with sand veil, it's great attack, and access to Outrage and Earthquake (both for STAB) make it an absolute tank. If you manage to pass a speed boost or dance then there's no stopping it, and even without that, it still destroys every OU pokemon without any setup.
Latias is mainly Uber due to Soul Dew. Without it, Latias couldn't compete with other Ubers near as efficiently.
And now Salamence. I don't really play Ubers, but I know Mence makes a great partner for Rayquaza, but more importantly, MixMence destroyed the OU game. There were very few ways of getting around it. When you have to carry a pokemon specifically for countering only 1 OU pokemon, you might want to re-evaluate that OU pokemon. It destroyed the OU tier, and it has a place in Ubers, so to Ubers it went.
Also, I just bred myself a DancingNite, and I'm very pleased that I get to use it now :P
dragonite's time as a power is upon us
dragonite is a pokemon that always lived in shadows in Gen 1 its attack was wasted because it only knew wing attack and normal attacks for physical moves no EQ whereas pokemon like Arbok and Charizard of types weak to that move learned in Gen 2 it became a Hazer to stop Curselax and Wing Attack was usable but there was also Kingdra who could Haze and was Water/Dragon so it lost its power in Gen 3 he got Dragon Dance and Earthquake which he always wanted but Salamence was also introduced and almost outclassed him with better offense stats then in Gen 4 he had a niche with Extremespeed and Superpower with Salamence banned Dragonite's long sought glory is now at hand he can now get that position he deserved in RBY
dragonite is a pokemon that always lived in shadows in Gen 1 its attack was wasted because it only knew wing attack and normal attacks for physical moves no EQ whereas pokemon like Arbok and Charizard of types weak to that move learned in Gen 2 it became a Hazer to stop Curselax and Wing Attack was usable but there was also Kingdra who could Haze and was Water/Dragon so it lost its power in Gen 3 he got Dragon Dance and Earthquake which he always wanted but Salamence was also introduced and almost outclassed him with better offense stats then in Gen 4 he had a niche with Extremespeed and Superpower with Salamence banned Dragonite's long sought glory is now at hand he can now get that position he deserved in RBY
Okay, first off, Dragonite still sucks. Flygon and Jirachi can revenge DDNite, and both can do with with a neutral Spe nature to put a bit more "oomph" into their attacks. Let's not forget that Mence's old "checks" can check Dragonite even better.
Secondly:
Secondly:
Heatran is now the best Pokemon in OU and I GUESS Lucario has a better chance at sweeping
Fuck. No. There are still viable methods of keeping stall under control; in better terms, we still have Infernape, SpecsTran, Lucario, and the like. Yes, Stall teams WILL become much more common, but they won't be overwhelmingly tough to beat.
Heatran and Lucario, who else? Oh yeah, Flygon has a new lease on life ^_^
Not bad, actually. As long as I don't have to wait two months in order to start building teams, it's a fine process; and the council members are sane for the most part.
Irrelevant, but it has its quirks over Rayquaza
If this one wasn't obvious, Scizor (haha, fuck you)
IMHO, Milotic and Claydol are the only UU Pokemon that I can see getting more usage with Mence's ban (unless people get start and start using Torterra <3)
With BW around the corner, I'd have to say no. Hell, we might actully start seeing Garchomp in OU again.
In order to prevent a "Mence isn't Uber/OU material" discussion, I plead the 5th
Jirachi. SubTWave is just... unfair =(
This is sort of? a pointless post, but I hope it doesn't get deleted...
I feel like I need to post SOMETHING on this huge topic, lol, ...
Tonight, millions across the globe will cry for Salamence.
Both for joy, and sadness.
My god, it's banished to Ubers.
I'm still soaking it in... x_____x
3)
Anyway, so Shaymin, Flygon, Dragonite, and many others will see rise.
I don't think stall is going to particularly rise... I mean there's still Ape d:
I feel like I need to post SOMETHING on this huge topic, lol, ...
Tonight, millions across the globe will cry for Salamence.
Both for joy, and sadness.
My god, it's banished to Ubers.
I'm still soaking it in... x_____x
3)
Anyway, so Shaymin, Flygon, Dragonite, and many others will see rise.
I don't think stall is going to particularly rise... I mean there's still Ape d:
Kingdra and Flygon are even better now, why would any team go WITHOUT a Steel-type to take hits from them .-.
im indifferent on its banning. It was really powerful but i never really had a problem with it. I do think the banning of salamence (from the time he was a suspect to his banning) was reallly quick.
Kingdra, Flygon and Dragonite in my opinion, aren't as threating as Latias, Salamence and Garchomp.
Is Steel a good type to have on your team? Yes, however due to the lower strength level of the remaining Dragon types, I think that you can get away with more team variation rather than stacking your teams with steels because of the harder hitting Dragon types I mentioned.
(Please don't even assume this paragraph is my supporting Salamence's banning, I honestly don't have an opinion on it, other than, it's removal, I think allows more metagame variation) :)
lol kingdra and dragonite are just as hard to switch into salamence.......wth are you talking about it
I think this ban was perfectly fine and justified. Go bash my opinion lol.
Thing is, it required you to at least have 2 Steel types in your team just to take his hits. Now there is more options since you have 1 threat you don't have to worry about. Sure FWG core is going to be more common, but what does it matter? It's easier to beat than Salamence.
Thing is, it required you to at least have 2 Steel types in your team just to take his hits. Now there is more options since you have 1 threat you don't have to worry about. Sure FWG core is going to be more common, but what does it matter? It's easier to beat than Salamence.
If that's true, if they are "just as hard to switch into as Salamence" why aren't they banned as well? :)
Here's the issue. Out of the two camps as far as "determining what deserves to be banned" is concerned, the "only ban broken things" camp completely dropped the ball a long time ago. Nobody has articulated why this community specifically shouldn't mercilessly ban every Pokemon that has an appropriately (i.e. "capable of being articulated in just about any way at all") negative impact on the metagame. It just hasn't been done.
So why should anyone be surprised that the "make a good metagame, who cares if we ban a lot of stuff" camp has gained such momentum? It's certainly appealing. I mean, everyone wants a "good metagame" (whatever that means), and many people even enjoy the lengthy testing process. It's also virtually unopposed, with most arguments amounting to halfhearted, insufficient reiterations of Sirlin articles, or worse-- people who hold the same "let's design a metagame" viewpoint, and merely have a different opinion of what that metagame should be. Those people are ultimately in complete philosophical agreement with all of Smogon's recent bans whether they know it or not, so I wouldn't even really classify them as "opposition" in the first place.
Anyway, I see this thread isn't really about Smogon's current banning philosophy, so I guess I'll stop there. Salamence was definitely an irritating, stressful Pokemon to deal with, and though none of that makes him "broken" by any stretch of the imagination, I'm excited that this change will likely result in much more manageable, skill-based individual games.