Salamence is Uber.

Salamence is absolutely overused, and so is Garchomp. If smogon wants to do this, then it pretty much has to retroactively ban Tauros from RB, ban Snorlax from GSC, and probably ban Tyranitar from ADV.

Being able to kill something because you have some brute force does not make something über, having a ridiculous statistic level or particular powers does (everything with 670+ statistics the former, stuff like Darkrai the latter and I guess Deoxys because of dual screens unfortunately; probably Manaphy thanks to Tail Glow).
 
I still don't understand why Salamence was moved up to the uber tier.

Even CBmence with a powerful move like Outrage could be countered by a variety of pokemon including: (wish+protect) vaporeon, (statue-inflicting orb) milotic, (ice shard) variants of hippowdown and I found success with cloyster as well.

All salamence ever was was a glorified dick statue that was easy to exploit.

EDIT: Forgot the featured questions

1.How will salamence's removal effect the metagame?

A. You can expect to see even less bulky water pokemon, the kind that used to be second nature to the 3rd generation OU game.

2.Will stall be a dominant force?

A. I doubt it, it's possible that salamence actually promoted more stalling as stealth rock, bulky ice-sharders and blissey+skarmory became prevalent as salamence cripplers.

3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?

A. Can't think of a lot, but not that salamence is gone there really isn't a lot of pokemon that would be able to counter CBheracross. Maybe gyarados.

4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal?

A. More stupid smogon shit, they used to do this stupid (BAN ME PLEASE)ry in the 3rd generation when they would make retarded rules nobody agreed with like promoting jirachi/celebi to ubers.

5.How does Salamence do in ubers?

A. Horribly? The smogon salamence analysis is dead wrong, salamence tanks in ubers under any condition.

6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?

A. Bulky water types that have been already unpopular in this generation

7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?

A. Theoretically, salamence's removing shouldn't affect the UU metagame.

8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?

A. No?

9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for ubers?

A. It wasn't because salamence can be countered by a dozen pokemon, ubers are usually only countered by other ubers.

10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?

A. The Uber tiers are fine as they are.


Sigh. I really miss pokerealm, they were 1000X more competent than smogon in terms of actual battling. They were retards though.
 
@CaptCombee: If we went to suspect test the old gens, then yes, that would be considered at the very least. But much less people care about suspect testing old gens, plus we don't hold the medium for those in our own hands anymore, so that's why we don't.
 
1.How will salamence's removal affect the metagame?

I think it'll shift the metagame from bulky offense to stall.

2.Will stall be a dominant force?


Maybe not dominant, but it will definitely be more common.

3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?


Dragonite definitely; maybe Flygon.

4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal?

5.How does Salamence do in ubers?

It won't - outclassed by Garchomp and Rayquaza. It could fare nicely against Choice Groudon, but Rayquaza outclasses Salamence.

6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?

Weavile and Mamoswine. They both go to BL.

7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?

8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?

Better late than never.

9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for ubers?

Reasons for: Deadly mixed sweeper; great stats overall; diverse physical, special, and support movepool; versatility; the fact that it generates fear in unprepared teams.

10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?

Hmmm, not sure. Maybe Jirachi, because it is just as versatile as Salamence, without the 25% switch-in loss.
 
Well this kills what little interest I still had in the Shoddy singles game, not that anyone cares.

My general opinion is that if people don't want to deal with 600 BST pseudolegendary dragons, then they should be playing UU. "We play the game that is given to us, not the game as we want it to be" is a farce now more than ever.

Here's hoping that B&W has a half-decent rules list for random wi-fi.
 
Precognition said:
Even CBmence with a powerful move like Outrage could be countered by a variety of pokemon including: (wish+protect) vaporeon, (statue-inflicting orb) milotic, (ice shard) variants of hippowdown and I found success with cloyster as well.
Click to expand...

Adamant CBmence Outrage calculations:

72.5% - 85.7% to standard Vaporeon
70.5% - 83.2% to standard Milotic
54.3% - 63.8% to standard Hippowdon
59.2% - 70.1% to support Cloyster
 
Blame Game said:
Here's the issue. Out of the two camps as far as "determining what deserves to be banned" is concerned, the "only ban broken things" camp completely dropped the ball a long time ago. Nobody has articulated why this community specifically shouldn't mercilessly ban every Pokemon that has an appropriately (i.e. "capable of being articulated in just about any way at all") negative impact on the metagame. It just hasn't been done.

So why should anyone be surprised that the "make a good metagame, who cares if we ban a lot of stuff" camp has gained such momentum? It's certainly appealing. I mean, everyone wants a "good metagame" (whatever that means), and many people even enjoy the lengthy testing process. It's also virtually unopposed, with most arguments amounting to halfhearted, insufficient reiterations of Sirlin articles, or worse-- people who hold the same "let's design a metagame" viewpoint, and merely have a different opinion of what that metagame should be. Those people are ultimately in complete philosophical agreement with all of Smogon's recent bans whether they know it or not, so I wouldn't even really classify them as "opposition" in the first place.

Anyway, I see this thread isn't really about Smogon's current banning philosophy, so I guess I'll stop there. Salamence was definitely an irritating, stressful Pokemon to deal with, and though none of that makes him "broken" by any stretch of the imagination, I'm excited that this change will likely result in much more manageable, skill-based individual games.
Click to expand...
I couldn't have said it better myself and have been thinking along the same lines for quite a while now. I myself am not exactly sure if Salamance was broken in OU, especially since I haven't played OU in forever, but it definitely seemed to have a negative influence on the metagame to me, and that's something that I believe should be just as strongly considered in tiering decisions as whether the Pokemon is actually broken or not. After all, the point in banning broken Pokemon in the first place is to make a healthy, stable metagame. Therefore, even if a Pokemon can't be considered to be broken, if it's nonetheless having an overwhelmingly negative effect on the metagame and preventing it from being stable and healthy, it should be banned all the same, so that we can reach that goal, as it makes no sense to prevent ourselves from reaching it by limiting ourselves to only certain methods and stipulations. As a result, whether or not Salamance could actually be considered to be broken, I'm quite happy with this result.
 
Curtains said:
Discussion for salamence to ubers-

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/salamence

1.How will salamence's removal effect the metagame?

You spelled affect wrong; people won't need to pack triple Steels.

2.Will stall be a dominant force?

In a metagame where Infernape thrives and Gliscor is popular even with Salamence around, why would it be?

3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?

Lucario.
4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal?

There was a process? All they did was make a Suspect ladder without it and then voted on it.

5.How does Salamence do in ubers?

How is this even relevant?

6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?

Bronzong / Mamoswine / Weavile, as well as Magnezone, who loses its best partner.

7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?

Dugtrio comes to mind, as it doesn't have to worry about being setup on once it gets locked into Earthquake and then being swept, as other things actually have hard counters.
8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?

Any time would be ... except during the Garchomp era. <_<

9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for ubers?

This seriously should have been banned before Latias. Scarf Latias sucks anyway. Salamence was just too pwnsome for us with its huge versatility.

10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?

None. The metagame is balanced.
Click to expand...
 
comatthew6 said:
1.How will salamence's removal affect the metagame?

I think it'll shift the metagame from bulky offense to stall.

2.Will stall be a dominant force?


Maybe not dominant, but it will definitely be more common.

3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?


Dragonite definitely; maybe Flygon.

4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal?

5.How does Salamence do in ubers?

It won't - outclassed by Garchomp and Rayquaza. It could fare nicely against Choice Groudon, but Rayquaza outclasses Salamence.

6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?

Weavile and Mamoswine. They both go to BL.

7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?

8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?

Better late than never.

9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for ubers?

Reasons for: Deadly mixed sweeper; great stats overall; diverse physical, special, and support movepool; versatility; the fact that it generates fear in unprepared teams.

10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?

Hmmm, not sure. Maybe Jirachi, because it is just as versatile as Salamence, without the 25% switch-in loss.
Click to expand...

I strongly disagree with you for Jirachi going to ubers. Was Salamance going to uber good? IMO yes. Salamence is a badass pokemon. I highly doubt it will thrive in Ubers, but it had to go.
 
Curtains said:
The way to become a voter was really pointless because if you don't/didn't have the name recognition then its no way you were going to vote no matter how good your shoddy rating was.
Click to expand...
I'm sorry, but have you SEEN some of the voters there? Obviously the people with name recognition are gonna vote because THEY'RE THE BEST PLAYERS WE HAVE. Why do we want a bunch of inexperienced players voting on something as important as Salamence's banning? We don't, so obviously the best players of this generation were chosen. Additionally, you forget that tournaments play a big role in this, and even someone as good as Philip7086 (phil bro) got rejected, and he's one of the best players we have.

Curtains said:
Hmm hypothetically infernape maybe , but nothing is really broken anymore.
Click to expand...
If nothing is broken anymore, then Smogon has done its job in creating a balanced metagame.

kapet said:
i dont know if its here or not but i realy need to ask the people that decide what pokemons are ubers or not this question:

Do you have ANYTHING agaisnt Dragon types?

Realy, normal pokemons like Garchomp and Salamence became ubers faster than, for example, the legendary trio, Suicune, Raikou and Entei, or Moltres, Articuno or Zapdos.

Whats next? Flygon? Altaria? give me a break...

If you hate Dragons, just make all of them ubers now

Do you hate Dragons that much? because the last pokemons you made ubers are dragons, Latias included that until now was only uber if people equiped it with Soul Dew.

Just answer me this
Click to expand...
I'll answer you. We have NOTHING against Dragon-types. The problem is their combination of STAB resisted only by one type and their sheer power. A Pokemon being legendary makes no impact upon its tiering. Notice how Pokemon like Articuno and Entei are both NU: They have massive weaknesses that don't allow them to perform well in the metagame (Stealth Rock). If we really had a problem against Dragon types, we would've banned them outright.

As for my opinion on Salamence, I'm neutral about it. It's a lot easier to make teams now because we don't have to worry about constantly checking Salamence, but I miss its power and versatility.
 
Curtains said:
Discussion for salamence to ubers-

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/salamence

1.How will salamence's removal effect the metagame?

2.Will stall be a dominant force?

3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?

4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal?

5.How does Salamence do in ubers?

6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?

7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?

8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?

9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for ubers?

10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?
Click to expand...

1. There will probably be slightly more stall teams around, but not enough to really make the metagame shift.

2.Like I siad, there will be more stall with mence banned, but it doesn't mean that stall will be dominant, as Infernape among others still function as great stallbreakers.

3. Heatran, which I'm sure has been mention a lot. It has more reason to spam Fire Blast or Earth Power; and it also doesn't need to run HP Ice or Dragon Pulse as often. Dragonite and Flygon will probably step up to fill in Mence's role, moreso Nite than Flygon, but that's simply because Flygon has other stuff to do.

6. Weavile usage will drop, as one of it's biggest boons was the ability to revenge Mence. Other revengers will fall in usage too, but not too much because there's still plenty of use for them.

10. I think we should give the metagame a while to readjust itself and the noobs to stop whining. But if there's one poke that should be banned, IMO it would be Machamp. One of the biggest problems with Mence was that it was hard to get a good switch-in to it partially because it's versatile, partly because it's freaking strong. Machamp on the other hand, has less versality, but there's a good chance that your counter fails outright has he OHKOs you; he only has two weakness, and both are hardly found in the OU metagame because they have poor coverage. Not to mention natural bulk, a fairly wide movepool and No Guard.
 
1.How will salamence's removal affect the metagame?

Stall is going to increase
2.Will stall be a dominant force?

Yes, that's not good
3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?

Bulky Pokemon and Heatran is already standing out. Scizor will decrease in power because of heatran

4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal?

Uneccessary
5.How does Salamence do in ubers?
It will the be heracross of OU. Meaning it will be shit

6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?

Ice Shards Porygon 2 and 100 base stat 252 evs in speed scarf(Rachi and Flygon)

7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?
Nothing

8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?

Fuck No, why would you ban something that is under control. Garchomp maybe because it 2HKOs to whole OU
9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for ubers?

Mence was under control. Scizor BP does around 65% to it. SR and life orb recoil= dead mence
10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?

Ubers is fine
 
1.How will salamence's removal effect the metagame?
A little to the stall side.
2.Will stall be a dominant force?
Not really.
3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?
Infernape IMO. Dragonite.
4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal?
I've no problem with it.
5.How does Salamence do in ubers?
We'll have to wait and see.
6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?
Swampert maybe.​
7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning? None.

8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?
Yes.
9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for Uber?
IMO the best mixed sweepers. Speed and power. It will do great in Uber IMO
10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?
Possibly Jirachi.
 
Oh well...gotta learn to forget that Sala was OU once (i think i'm one of the only people that has never used it... outside of monoteams o_O)

Let's go:

1.How will salamence's removal affect the metagame?

Dunno. I'll be able to tell once i begin playing this meta.

2.Will stall be a dominant force?

More common, yes. Dominant, no. Infernpe is still a huge problem for stall, always was. Maybe even more than Sala.

3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?

Grass pokes, Dragonite probably taking it's place, and i dare to say Heracross as well (not thriving.. but escaping the UU fate it is destined nowadays).

4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal?

Sincerely? Whatever. Sorry, but i couldn't care less about how Salamence got Uber status. Never used it, after all.

5.How does Salamence do in ubers?

Probably it will only be seen as a Rayquaza partner.

6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?

Weavile and Mamoswine probably.

7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?

Sceptile is the only one i can see getting promoted to OU, really.

8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?

Again: i don't care. Sorry again >_>

Same for QUESTION 9.

10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?

Hmm... no one.
 
nesan said:
5.How does Salamence do in ubers?
We'll have to wait and see.
Click to expand...
No we won't. salamence has been playable in ubers since ADV, and the fact that he is now banned in OU will not affect his playability in ubers one bit. Comments like this really piss me off as they are extremely common and show an absolute ignorance towards the tiering system. We already know how salamence performs in ubers. He is mostly overshadowed by rayquaza but is still powerful and can work for a double dragon strategy.
 
I find it weird how people say things like "Grass is a bad type". What is a good or bad type is dependent upon the metagame. Like in UU, Grass is quite a good type. Roserade, Shaymin and Venusaur have all been #1 on the UU ladder, for example.
 
1.How will salamence's removal effect the metagame?
Less Steel types
2.Will stall be a dominant force?
just a bit more not a lot
3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?
Breloom, Gyaraods, Lucario, most physical sweepers that hate having their attacks slashed intimidate. Dragonite finds itself not 95% outclassed now.
4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal?
Abysmal. Having a mere 9 people out of a community of hundreds of skilled battlers vote is only slightly more reliable than randomly drawing 9 pieces of paper labled 'Uber' or 'OU' out of a hat IMO. Its just not enough opinions.
5.How does Salamence do in ubers?
Never played ubers seriously enough to know.
6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?
Scizor, Magnezone, and Scarfrachi
​
7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning? I rarely play using UU pokes so its hard to say how they would fare
8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?
No.
9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for Uber?
It was never a problem for me. It was just another sweeper that was on a little bit higher level than the others, nothing more.
10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?
none. although I've always been curious to how Deoxys-D would fare in OU. its support movepool is VERY good but 50 base hp is really bad no matter how good your defenses are. psychic's also a horrible typing.
 
This NEVER EVER surprised me.
Weavile and Mamoswine's usage will drastically drop down and Heatran will no longer be needing HP ice for revenge killing. Though Heatran will be the next suspect.

I want to see some BL's and UU's go up to the standard metagame.
Can anyone provide a list of pokemons that have a chance to go up to OU?
 
Absolutely NOTHING changed until now by my eyes, Heatrans, Scizors, the same steels, the same old teams are still around. Salamence wasn't even that threatening after the mixmence set got common, lol.
Bulky offense is still the prefered choice for most players I faced.

It's pretty sad how the metagame is starting to get more and more boring. Seriously, when you have to resort to BL/UU to fill the role of previously OU Pokemon, something is wrong.
 
Just my opinons :P

1.How will salamence's removal effect the metagame?
There will be a lot more infernapes which will likely become the dominate force in metagame.
2.Will stall be a dominant force?
Infernape
3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?
Dragonite and Flygon of course since they will attempt to fill mence's place.
4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal?
I'm...okay with it. Mence's removal causing me to basically redesign my teams since some included mence while others now don't need to worry about it anymore. And I don't think it was wise to do this so close to black and white.
5.How does Salamence do in ubers?
Not sure myself
6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?
Weavile and Mamoswine, especially weavile
7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?
No clue though I do think now would be a good time to use Agility Blaziken.
8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?
Not at all. Black and white are coming soon
9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for ubers?

10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?
Tyranitar, even though I love using it :P
 
Curtains said:
Discussion for salamence to ubers-

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/salamence

1.How will salamence's removal effect the metagame?
Hopefully, Scizor will finally stop being number one. It's not that great.
2.Will stall be a dominant force?
No. Dragonite shatters stall like glass.
3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?
Dragonite. It can do pretty much everything Salamence did, maybe not as well, but it does other things as well.
4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal?
Pretty effective, and I must say the decision surprised me, but if it dethrones Scizor...
5.How does Salamence do in ubers?
I haven't played Ubers, but I've heard it's a great teammate for Rayquaza and outspeeds things Rayquaza can't for a fact.
6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?
Scizor, Mamoswine, Dragon Pulse Scarfran. Steel types in general might drop, and then maybe even Magnezone.
7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?
Sceptile, I hope. He's really underrated. Heck, maybe someone will bring in DDzard, although that WOULD fail.
8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?
It was becoming the dominant factor in the metagame. It probably would've reached Garchomp-esque power eventually, although I'm thinking Gen V could being Mence and maybe Garchomp down to OU again.
9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for ubers?
I'd have to say it wasn't, since it seems too much like Rayquaza to stand out. Gen V could very easily rebalance the metagame to bring Mence back down.
10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?
I'd ban Scizor just to get it out of the number one spot. But honestly, I can't say. Jirachi is pretty annoying, but not UBERS annoying. I think without Salamence there isn't really anything that threatening, other than Tyrannitar. An event Larvitar with some awesome moves could Uber it, I guess, but I just can't see that happening. I'm still a little sketchy on sending Salamence to Ubers in the first place. In the end... it's possible Dragonite will suddenly become grossly powerful, but I doubt it. We'll see.
Click to expand...
 
1.How will salamence's removal effect the metagame?

Salamence's removal won't change the metagame too much as it was more of a stall breaker and people can always use different ones. Also, most stall breakers can be revenge killed.
I think there will be more Grass Types like Shaymin and Celebi and even Breloom used without having to worry about Mence and this will form a bit of a Water/Fire/Grass Core on a lot more teams. Adding on to this losing a stall breaker adds a little more stall.

2.Will stall be a dominant force?

Stall will be used a bit more, but in no way will it be a "dominant force" as you are calling it.

6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?

Definitely Weavile and Mamoswine will see less usage. Otherwise I do not know.

7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?

Personally I would think that most things will stay the same other than some pokemon dropping and maybe Shaymin going up into OU.

8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?

Like they say, the greatest time for change is always in the present. You can't really say much else as it can have good things and bad things that go with it, it is hard to make a set in stone decision until this blows by for a while so we can look back on this.

10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?
Personally there aren't really things that should be Ubers right now, but if Scizor somehow gets even MORE usage then I would think it should definitely be a Suspect as without Salamence now you lost a great check to Scizor.
 
Glen ^^ said:
It's pretty sad how the metagame is starting to get more and more boring. Seriously, when you have to resort to BL/UU to fill the role of previously OU Pokemon, something is wrong.
Click to expand...

Charizard was in OU in Gen 3, and BL before that. Now he's a NU because of his typing. UU and even NU have plenty of good pokemon with good stats and potential roles they could fill, that aren't considered solely for the fact that one pokemon did it better than all of them, even if just only slightly. With Salamence gone, it's tough to predict what has potential to move up in the metagame, since it's not only overall stats that determine where a pokemon is ranked, but movesets and available roles on a team.

I fail to see how letting some slightly outclassed pokemon enjoy a chance to shine is boring. And resorting to BL and UU isn't a bad thing at all, all tiers of pokemon have good pokemon in them.
 
Just want to quickly address some recurring arguments I saw in the first couple of pages. For those people who feel the council process was unfair and that the council members were just the 'popular moderators', have a good read of this thread. Have a look at the effort put into the applications, and in particular take a look at the successful ones. Then ask yourself, do these users not have the credentials that entitle them to vote? These users are the among the best battlers smogon has to offer, as shown by the extensive tournament lists demanded of each. They are all respected users, and they have allowed us to have a quick and efficient suspect test that I far prefer to some of the messes we've got ourselves into in the past.

Those people who keep on saying that 'Gen 5 will be released in just a couple of months, why ban Mence now!?' need to realise that Gen 4 needs to be balanced regardless of whether or not a new gen is coming. Gen 4 has been incredibly popular and there will always be a largish number of people who will want to continue to play it. Also, while BW are being released quite soon, we have no idea what mechanics changes there will be, and so getting an accurate simulator up will definitely take many many more months after that. Even if there are no mechanics changes, simply adding new Pokemon, moves and abilities will take time. So really, there is definitely a point to striving towards this balanced gen 4 metagame.

Personally, I'm quite glad to see Salamence go. I was on the fence for a really long time because like most people I love the feel of the thing, but I think it really will increase metagame diversity. It is Salamence's Speed that broke it. The fact that it possessed such firepower is fair enough, but when it outsped or speedtied the vast majority of the metagame, it forced the metagame to adapt through a bottleneck in order to check it. Salamence probably had this coming for a long time. I had a proper 'holy shit' feeling the first time I used DD outrage mence after platinum's release, but the fact that it coincided almost perfectly with Garchomp's ban, Scizor's Bullet Punch, and all the Shaymin-S Latias and Stage-3 stuff, it kind of fell out of the limelight for a while. For those who feel they will miss mence too much though, you need to remember that Dragonite can play very similarly, but it is a much more fair pokemon I feel since it while it does pack a ton of destructive power it still allows for a much wider range of Pokemon to act as checks for it.

And Chou, if you've not done so already, I recommend you give LO Sceptile a try :D. It really lives up to all the hype it's been getting, and it fits your playstyle pretty perfectly. One seriously cool gecko right there :D.
 
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