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NP: UU - Silent Night

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I would like to note that to suggest a BL Pokemon to be re-tested, evidence must be give of significant metagame shift that would explain why a Pokemon previously considered too powerful no longer is--some good example of changes in the metagame that affect a Pokemon would be the presence of Rhyperior and Donphan, neither of which were in UU when Crobat was voted out, and the absence of Cresselia, which was present in the metagame when Porygon-Z was voted out. Of course, the more powerful a Pokemon was when it was a Suspect, the harder I would expect it to be a assemble a convincing argument to re-test it. For what it's worth, I consider Abomasnow, Cresselia, Shaymin, Staraptor, and Yanmega so powerful that it would be extremely difficult to convince me to re-test any of them (to say nothing of what JabbaTheGriffin might think of other BL Pokemon). The ordinary nomination thread will be up shortly, so I thought it would be wise to mention this aspect of the nominating procedure.
 
I'd love to see P-Z retested, I always thought it got a shit deal since people were so prepared for cress they left themselves open to a Porygon obliteration. Seriously, dump Umbreon and P-Z back down to UU and we'll have a much more enjoyable round by far.
 
I would like to note that to suggest a BL Pokemon to be re-tested, evidence must be give of significant metagame shift that would explain why a Pokemon previously considered too powerful no longer is--some good example of changes in the metagame that affect a Pokemon would be the presence of Rhyperior and Donphan, neither of which were in UU when Crobat was voted out, and the absence of Cresselia, which was present in the metagame when Porygon-Z was voted out. Of course, the more powerful a Pokemon was when it was a Suspect, the harder I would expect it to be a assemble a convincing argument to re-test it. For what it's worth, I consider Abomasnow, Cresselia, Shaymin, Staraptor, and Yanmega so powerful that it would be extremely difficult to convince me to re-test any of them (to say nothing of what JabbaTheGriffin might think of other BL Pokemon). The ordinary nomination thread will be up shortly, so I thought it would be wise to mention this aspect of the nominating procedure.

Does that mean that we can nominate ___ Pokemon to be retested in that nomination thread?

And man, I completely forgot the round was ending >_<
 
i truly believe that crobat will bring the perfect balance of this metagame with all the latest additions lingering in the tier now. we have to be careful what we bring down though because we'll only make situations much worse by taking a step back in this long process. crobat will be an interesting re-test, though i fear it will still classify as a bl due to its ability to simply shut down teams with taunt + brave bird. (theorymoning) high speed and amazing typing pukes on its downfall -- Stealth Rock weakness. with that said, crobat will give this tier mixed feelings but i feel like we need this one pokemon to shake up the tier (hopefully in a good way).
 
I like the idea of testing Crobat. Even though, like franky, I think it would end up BL again, the new metagame is more anti-Crobat-ish (drop of Rhyperior, Aggron's and Rotom's rise in usage, no Shaymin); thus making it worth of a new test.
 
i truly believe that crobat will bring the perfect balance of this metagame with all the latest additions lingering in the tier now. we have to be careful what we bring down though because we'll only make situations much worse by taking a step back in this long process. crobat will be an interesting re-test, though i fear it will still classify as a bl due to its ability to simply shut down teams with taunt + brave bird. (theorymoning) high speed and amazing typing pukes on its downfall -- Stealth Rock weakness. with that said, crobat will give this tier mixed feelings but i feel like we need this one pokemon to shake up the tier (hopefully in a good way).

I basically agree with this. Not to mention with the onslaught of grass types that are all ridiculously versatile and overpowered as heck, i feel we need this check to nerf them. I don't class Weezing as a blanket check to grass types either considering sp.def Weezing gets OHKO'd by SD LO Leafeon with Double-Edge with just a small amount of residual damage and if you go physical defensive Leaf Storms destroy you, nor do i class anything else as a blanket check as they all have their own problems with getting overpowered by one or another. So all in all i hope Crobat will balance them out without overpowering near everything else too.

Its not as if Crobat doesn't have checks either, there are a heck of a lot of Pokemon who can switch in without fear. The only doubts im having about it is Superfang, but still it has to drop a move for it. Most probably U-Turn which harms its scouting ability greatly. Either way i cant just theorymon here all day, still at least he is worth retesting with this much support from people.

If Superfang or w/e is found to be broken then i really wish we could implement something like this, but i doubt that will happen lol.
 
Ok, I honestly think that we're moving backwards by retesting anything. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for shaking things up, but why do that with the pokemon we loved to hate previously? Abomosnow is just gonna shit all over venusaur/milotic ans possibly leech seed stall those fire types. It's defenses aren't that bad, especially with that unique typing. With all the water types running around that can't break its subs or run in fear, it's just going to run or stall through everything, but that's just theorymon. Also, Crobat actually sounds "ok", but I'm a bit weary of letting something back in that can both check lots of things and sweep. I mean, that's just asking for yet another terrible round. I like the fact that I can constantly handle venusaur and whatever other grass type, but at what cost?
 
Abomasnow doesn't shake things up enough, though. If you've ever wanted to make a hail team, you used Snover anyway. Replacing Snover with Abomasnow just means hail teams get a bit of a better lead, and that's it. We should drop Abomasnow and something else, although Crobat seems way too good with Super Fang. You guys are talking about how Rhyperior and Aggron handle it, but they lose half their HP via Super Fang and have no way to recover it back. Also, susceptible to Roost stalling maybe?
I think you're seriously underrating Abomasnow's offensive abilities. With Hail, Leech Seed and possibly Toxic Spikes, you're losing a ton of health easily and Aboma has great typing and other things for SubSeeding ( STAB Blizzard for Grasses, Hail, and Focus Punch). A simple set of
-Leech Seed
-Substitute
-Blizzard
-Focus Punch
would wreck (and DID wreck) many teams.

And Crobat is definitely a force to be reckoned with with Super Fang. I recently fought one with my OU team and realized how easily it could mow through it's counters. With Super Fang and something like Milotic, Rhyperior can only switch in so many times.
 
About Rhyperior, Aggron and friends: well, some smart ass guy can use Nasty Plot Crobat and easily KO those.
Although it isn't even close of being good as the standard one, it still a option to consider (mainly because of the speed).
 
I've never even played with Crobat before but I don't see it destroying this metagame. Sure it gives stall teams a hard time, but it can't even touch the likes of Aggron, Rhyperior, Regirock, Registeel and other common pokemon that can potentially take it down.

That speed is insane though. Base 130 makes it the second fastest pokemon in the whole tier... (possible increase in Electrode to check it?)

Edit: Super fang seems annoying as hell, but I guess it'll come at the cost of one of it's moves due to 4MSS
(Assuming: Taunt, Brave Bird, Roost, U-turn)
 
I've never even played with Crobat before but I don't see it destroying this metagame. Sure it gives stall teams a hard time, but it can't even touch the likes of Aggron, Rhyperior, Regirock, Registeel and other common pokemon that can potentially take it down.

That speed is insane though. Base 130 makes it the second fastest pokemon in the whole tier... (possible increase in Electrode to check it?)

Crobat actually shits on Registeel, Taunt + Brave Bird shuts it down completely. Regirock is also susceptible to Roost stalling if it lacks Earthquake. Crobat is a sexily balanced poke, and if re-tested it would probably end up back in BL, although conditions are less favoured towards it. The tier is pretty stagnant atm, and as franky said it'd be nice to shake things up. Not to mention it provides us with a more offensive 100 percent counter to Venusaur.
 
here's why i think crobat is a bad idea:

1.) Demeaning past suspect tests - We came to a supermajority that Crobat was BL and by our own rules, once that happens, the Pokemon stays in BL. If we are just gonna bring down stuff again just for the sake of retesting it to see if its still as strong as before (especially when a lot of people are already saying it will be banned again anyway), then why are we having these suspect tests and nominations? It casts doubt over the whole process and makes it seem its really just a free for all. Had we addressed bringing back a pokemon earlier because of apparant metagame shifts, fine, but after everything thats been done, we are moving forward in uu with a positive light. Look at the 2 most recent nomination threads, no suspects dominated the last one and its definitely dominating this one. The metagame has balance, people are happy, and talk of "not enough people are playing" is silly, there are more than enough to have diverse games, all of that silliness of testing gimmicks has basically worn off, and we have a stable foundation for uu. Sure, unbanning Crobat might bring back a few players immediately, but they will likely just leave after a few days of testing and we are stuck with another broken mon and more bitching.

2.) Crobat is still going to be the same exact problem it was before; A Pokemon that can act as fast sweeper, defensive stronghold, and all around momentum stealer in any game it plays. It is able to fight and defend a large number of Pokemon (with the same set). Take a look at the top 10 UU Pokemon:

Venusaur - Crobat is a top 5 counter, maybe not number 1 because of being susceptible to Sleep Powder. Crobat is going to Brave Bird / Roost up all day vs Venusuar.

Milotic - Crobat doesn't win but it doesn't really lose either to one of the best walls in the game. It can Taunt it's recover and then just U-Turn out to a Venusaur, Chansey, etc., causing Milotic to not be able to regain health and have to lose more to Stealth Rock / Spikes. If Milotic is Toxiced, Crobat can come out on top here.

Mismagius - Has to Sub/Tbolt the switch-in, Brave Bird is doing a ton, defensive Missy is shut down by Taunt/Roost/BB. Missy isn't the worst Pokemon to fight Crobat with, but being slower really sucks. Crobat is an excellent check to Missy though.

Spiritomb - Does even worse than Missy, Crobat's Taunt shuts down healing/status, while you can Roost vs Sucker Punches or weak Shadow Sneaks. I would just U-Turn or switch out afterwards, assuming he doesn't switch.

Registeel - Regi's only hope to actually win is Explosion, otherwise, Crobat is just going to Taunt, Roost, and U-Turn to a better match-up. Ice Punch/Earthquake could damage Crobat but that is just a bad moveslot desicion for Registeel. Registeel just can't do enough and so Crobat acts as an excellent check.

Arcanine - Arcanine is a pretty big threat to Crobat, and both take 25% from SR. I'd argue that Arcanine is the safest Pokemon to bring in so far, although it can be pretty risky.

Uxie - Crobat can Taunt/Roost/U-Turn > better match-up, in the meantime damaging a valuable wall. Uxie can hit pretty hard though.

Alakazam - Crobat outspeeds and OHKOs. Crobat can also switch in on 3 of its attacks (yes, even sub as it can just u-turn out to pursuiter). Crobat checks him perfectly (just don't be stupid and come in on Psychic).

Rhyperior - Crobat loses 100% straight up, but you have to think this through. Let's assume early Player A has Venusaur, B has Crobat. Player A is going to switch, the threat of Brave Bird or Taunt is going to force Venusaur's hand. Player B just wants to scout the team for now, having other methods of winning if Venusaur somehow stayed in. A brings out Rhyperior, B U-Turns, out comes counter, no momentum lost and the pressure is back onto A. This sort of pressure is commonplace with Crobat, whos healing, Speed, bulk, typing, etc make it almost impossible to take down until much later in the game.

Houndoom - Neither should switch into the other, but Crobat wins with Brave Bird and faster Speed.

Crobat loses straight up to 1 of them - Rhyperior
Crobat basically ties vs 3 - Arcanine, Milotic, Uxie
Crobat wins or acts as a perfect check vs 6 - Venusaur, Mismagius, Spiritomb, Alakazam, Houndoom, Registeel

Against the 4 you either lose or tie with, weaknesses to Toxic and Taunt plague them. If you can get Toxic Spikes on the field and then keep Toxic Spikes absorber at bay with Crobat, you can virtually stall out most of the game. Toxic Spikes absorbers include Venusaur, Toxicroak, and Drapion - standard sets are not beating Crobat.

Crobat has counters, yes. Any Pokemon does - but Crobat can basically force their counter's hand early by being such a threat to other Pokemon and still U-Turn out when the counters come in. I really don't want to lose to Crobat because my "check" or "counter" got toxiced by like a Registeel or something. That shouldn't happen, but Crobat's unique stats allow it to. Finally, add in Crobat's defensive prowess here along with the fact that it can just sweep a large amount of Pokemon thanks to Brave Bird and 130 Speed while checking many more (moltres, blaziken, clefable, etc) thanks to Roost, Taunt, and Brave Bird, and you can see why I'm very much against allowing Crobat back in.
 
If Crobat runs U-turn then it loses Super Fang, now Aggron/Rhyperior/Regirock/Steelix can switch into it all day.

To use Super Fang effectively you have to use it ON THE SWITCH IN, or else you're just going to be OHKO'd by a rock move. Also, Crobat isn't as effective as a lead now because offensive Mesprit leads are so popular, that it threatens to OHKO, TrickScarf Uxie will also become popular, which will screw over Crobat.

And I don't see how Crobat is a decent check to Mismagius at all (unless it's horribly weakened), it will either be behind a Sub or just attack/Will-o-Wisp on the switch. Same with Zam. All he has to do to decimate the tier is spam Psychic unless the opponent has a Steel- or Dark-type and we all know that Crobat isn't switching in on that. Also, if you want to run U-turn to "check" SubZam (hello? Zam can predict that and just Sub again as you u-turn), you lose out on Super Fang.

So no, Crobat isn't the dominant force it used to be, there are many more ways of handling it now than there were back then.
 
IIRC many Registeel began to run Thunder instead of Thunder Wave during the Crobat/Shaymin test period because it could paralyze and do damage to Crobat, and it couldn't be Taunted. Registeel can be a decent check to Crobat, just not with the typical SR/Twave/Iron Head/SToss set.

Crobat isn't going to be running U-turn any more, not when Super Fang is infinitely more useful. Sure, U-turn can take advantage of switches and do some situational things like break Alakazam's Sub, but doing 50% to hard counters is much more deserving of a slot.

Basically Super Fang is the one reason I'm hesitant to support this. Without it, Crobat has plenty of solid checks in UU - Steelix, Rock-types, Rotom, Slowbro, Arcanine, etc. But I would still be in favor of a retest.

One thing that hasn't been brought up is one of Crobat's more annoying sets. Something like Sub/Toxic/Whirlwind/Roost I believe. Maybe Taunt or Brave Bird over one of those moves, I can't remember. But it was harder to deal with than the standard set, and it did pretty handily beat the aforementioned checks. Something to consider.
 
If Crobat runs U-turn then it loses Super Fang, now Aggron/Rhyperior/Regirock/Steelix can switch into it all day.

i'd argue super fang is incredibly overrated, and it shouldn't be the main on crobat, not when bb is 2hkoing everything of importance anyway and you can't gain those momentum shifts. taking 50% off rhyperior or aggron is nice, but you have to be able to do it on the switch-in, and in actual battle, you won't be just randomly spouting off super fang, when you can just ko with bb or scout with u-turn, or taunt/roost. i may be wrong about this if crobat was retested (please god no) but i think u-turn would still be more popular because it eases having to use prediction of whats coming in and just gives you control of the battle.

To use Super Fang effectively you have to use it ON THE SWITCH IN, or else you're just going to be OHKO'd by a rock move. Also, Crobat isn't as effective as a lead now because offensive Mesprit leads are so popular, that it threatens to OHKO, TrickScarf Uxie will also become popular, which will screw over Crobat.

agreed, i would expect crobat to be of a more "come in later to counter/check" kind of mon. it leading earlier was just to help fight off against froslass and ambipom who dominated the lead slot in early uu.

And I don't see how Crobat is a decent check to Mismagius at all (unless it's horribly weakened), it will either be behind a Sub or just attack/Will-o-Wisp on the switch. Same with Zam. All he has to do to decimate the tier is spam Psychic unless the opponent has a Steel- or Dark-type and we all know that Crobat isn't switching in on that. Also, if you want to run U-turn to "check" SubZam (hello? Zam can predict that and just Sub again as you u-turn), you lose out on Super Fang.

the same reason it was an excellent check to missy the first time - higher speed, ability to survive shadow ball switching in, and taunt. not a counter, just a really great check who has to be weary of tbolt or sub if its switching in, and the rare wisp. you make it sound so easy lol - with steels rising with crobat being reintroduced and dark-types carrying PURSUIT, zam is not spamming psychic anywhere haha. anyone who does that would have to be moronic, because you are just asking for drapion to come in with no damage from blast, and take a pursuit. zam is more likely going to start by subbing, encore, or focus blast if the occasion calls for it, unless there is absolute certainty that hes safe - otherwise, hes asking for pursuit bait. not to be pedantic but the crobat user can "hello? predict this and brave bird, then u-turn out" which is why that can be useless. crobat also makes a great revenge killer which is why i list it as beating zam, as well as being able to switch-in to most of its attacks.

So no, Crobat isn't the dominant force it used to be, there are many more ways of handling it now than there were back then.

aggron (who was always around but definitely got better) and rhyperior are the only "many more ways". the rest were around and were used during crobat's reign more than right now such as se/eq regirock or gball steelix - crobat was still found to be too much of a threat.

One thing that hasn't been brought up is one of Crobat's more annoying sets. Something like Sub/Toxic/Whirlwind/Roost I believe. Maybe Taunt or Brave Bird over one of those moves, I can't remember. But it was harder to deal with than the standard set, and it did pretty handily beat the aforementioned checks. Something to consider.

another really good set that i remember, but i dont think it gained popularity until close to crobat ban anyway. it certainly can be just as annoying. you might even run super fang over ww on this set though, simply because you can just sub vs many pokemon as they switch to a counter, superfang, and then toxic.

edit: agree completely with flareblitz for the first part, although i don't agree with any retests. regardless, anyone suggesting crobat should read about just how dominant this thing was in old uu threads.
 
I absolutely do not support a re-test of Crobat, and anyone who does either wasn't here when it was UU or wasn't paying attention. The addition of Rhyperior to the tier is literally the only negative change as far as Crobat is concerned, and that's not enough to outweigh its overwhelming ability to completely shut down all kinds of teams with just Taunt/Roost/Brave Bird/U-Turn or Toxic. You can literally build a team with Crobat, something to pursuit scarfers, and 4 other Pokemon that hard counter Rhyperior/Aggron and win the majority of your games. No, Crobat definitely doesn't deserve to be down here, the only reason it's even acceptable in OU is because of the things it can Taunt can actually hit it back really fucking hard, unlike in UU where the only common wall that can reasonably beat it is Milotic.

tldr I don't support a re-test of Crobat. The only BL Pokemon I think we were a bit too hasty with were PG-Z and Honchkrow, and those are the only ones I would like to see back in the tier for another go.
 
I absolutely do not support a re-test of Crobat, and anyone who does either wasn't here when it was UU or wasn't paying attention. The addition of Rhyperior to the tier is literally the only negative change as far as Crobat is concerned, and that's not enough to outweigh its overwhelming ability to completely shut down all kinds of teams with just Taunt/Roost/Brave Bird/U-Turn or Toxic. You can literally build a team with Crobat, something to pursuit scarfers, and 4 other Pokemon that hard counter Rhyperior/Aggron and win the majority of your games. No, Crobat definitely doesn't deserve to be down here, the only reason it's even acceptable in OU is because of the things it can Taunt can actually hit it back really fucking hard, unlike in UU where the only common wall that can reasonably beat it is Milotic.

tldr I don't support a re-test of Crobat. The only BL Pokemon I think we were a bit too hasty with were PG-Z and Honchkrow, and those are the only ones I would like to see back in the tier for another go.

So I must be one of those people that doesn't pay attention right? You didn't play when Crobat was around if I remember correctly, did you?

Donphan also got moved down, and all you need to do is run Stone Edge as a move to have another counter to Crobat. Steelix always did amazing against Crobat with the combination of Gyro Ball and Earthquake. Rhyperior is on almost every bulky offensive team and absolutely maims all of Crobat's sets. As Thund said, you need to Super Fang the switch if you choose to use it, but of course Super Fang is an inferior option IMO especially because of the momentum U-Turn gives Crobat and the overall team. And by the way, Rotom stops Crobat completely too, and it wasn't used at all back when Crobat and Shaymin were around.

tldr there's many more things that handle Crobat this time, and saying that Crobat is comparable to back then when UU was relatively new and undiscovered is preposterous.
 
tldr I don't support a re-test of Crobat. The only BL Pokemon I think we were a bit too hasty with were PG-Z and Honchkrow, and those are the only ones I would like to see back in the tier for another go.

I'd want to see PG-Z in UU again but definitely not Honchkrow. There are few things that resist Flying in UU that aren't dispatched of Superpower. Plus, it was unanimously voted BL. I think it's broken.
 
@ToF

As you pointed out, Steelix and Rotom were still around when Crobat was deemed BL, so the only relevant considerations are Rhyperior and Donphan, and while they do beat Crobat my entire point is that it's not enough justification to where we can say "okay so it shits on 90% of the tier but these two pokemon, who are easily u-turned out of and beaten by the first and second most common pokemon in the tier, check it now SO IT MUST BE FINE". And as far as U-Turners go this isn't Scyther we're talking about, with the 4x SR weak and (relatively) shitty typing (and no Taunt). How many times are you going to be able to switch in Donphan/Rhyperior/Steelix/Rotom on Crobat when it can come in on so many things in the tier, taunt to shut down momentum, roost off any damage, and just u-turn out again?

It seems you forgot the entire reason why Crobat was banned. It was not because there weren't a solid number of Pokemon that could check its offensive ability or kill it immediately, because there were. It was because those Pokemon often occupied one slot on a team, and a quick U-Turn on them can completely reverse the momentum of a game.
 
I'd definitely support a P-Z retest. Crobat, I'm ambivalent on: I wasn't around for that metagame so I don't what kind of game it was, so I have no experience(I would say that Donphan's Ice Shard would seem like a good counter though). The other pokemon I could see, what about Gallade? I came in 2 metas after he left, but on paper he doesn't look too incredibly good.
 
Crobat voted BL on: July 28, 2009
FlareBlitz joined: September 2009

I don't want to single you out like this, but can you please stop saying things like "you weren't around when it was UU" or "you must have forgotten why it was banned", please?

Several factors make UU less favorable to Crobat. The loss of Shaymin, the addition of Rhyperior + Donphan + Head Smash Aggron + Morning Sun Arcanine, and the increased prevelance of Rotom mainly. This seems like it at least warrants a retest, even with the possibility (likelyhood?) of a quick boot.
 
Ehh... I have no idea when FlareBlitz started playing, but just because he wasn't registered on Smogon by then doesn't mean he didn't play at that same time or that he didn't have access to the community's most common topics (I myself just registered 1 month after I started playing), so that means nothing.
 
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