The thing I hate about Motor Drive and Volt Absorb the most is that they seem like attempts at fixing what we did wrong in the Typing polls (i.e. not vote for Ground). So we didn't vote for Ground, and now people are realising that that was a mistake. Let's fix the mistake by slapping on Motor Drive or Volt Absorb! That's not cool, seriously.
I don't support Skill Link only on a technicality. Skill Link encourages multi-hit moves, however, with that, it encourages usage of the Focus Sash glitch on shoddy (where multi hit moves that OHKO a Pokemon OHKO regardless of Focus Sash, unlike in-game where Focus Sash would make the Pokemon survive every hit).
Perhaps... But how is Shockproof really all that different in this regard? It may not be doing as much as Volt Absorb/Motor Drive, but nonetheless, if voting for those is "regretting not picking Ground in the type polls" then I don't see how Shockproof isn't "regretting not picking Grass or Electric in the Type polls." In both cases though, I don't believe it's that simple though; instead, it's pretty much as Myrmidon said--we can't do everything we want through the typing alone, so the Ability makes up for some of those things we weren't able to do in Typing. In other words, it's about doing something that a type-combination alone would be impossible to solve by itself--the typing takes care of certain aspects, while the ability takes care of others.The thing I hate about Motor Drive and Volt Absorb the most is that they seem like attempts at fixing what we did wrong in the Typing polls (i.e. not vote for Ground). So we didn't vote for Ground, and now people are realising that that was a mistake. Let's fix the mistake by slapping on Motor Drive or Volt Absorb! That's not cool, seriously.
That doesn't really answer (or it could be how I'm really not understanding what you're trying to say about the Ice-weakness thing) how Shockproof/Motor Drive makes CAP11 too much of a Gyarados partner, but Shockproof doesn't, though. In other words, why is going down from an immunity to a resistance make it something that Togekiss is still interested in, but Gyarados suddenly doesn't find it appealing at all, unless the typing really isn't enough by itself after all?I want to defend ShockProof against Motor Drive and Volt Absorb.
The Motor Drive will make more CAP11+Gyarados than our original plan and unlike Togekiss, Gyarados doesn't have Ice weakness which would cover everything with Motor Drive CAP11.
CAP11 is going be faster than Zapdos which makes Jolteon the only STAB Thunderbolter who is fast enough and takes normal damage from STAB Pursuit(Which the CAP11 is going to have.)
No need to overkill it ShockProof is enough and CAP11 is supposed to be Good-not-great Pokemon, pay attention to the plan we all agreed on!
"The good-but-not-great" Pokemon is the Pokemon that we're supposed to be helping; in other words, Togekiss. Whether CAP11 itself ("the perfect teammate") is supposed to be great or not is not specified in the concept at all, but since it's called "the perfect teammate", I'd lean more towards making it great at its job than deliberately trying to make it lacking.Pick a good-but-not-great OU pokemon, and design the perfect teammate for it, similar to the way Celebi & Heatran, or Blissey & Skarmory complement each other so well on competitive teams.
No clue what you're talking about here; what does Jolteon not resisting Rock attacks have to do with how well CAP11 and Gyarados work as partners? And if you meant Gyarados, I'm still not sure what you're point is, as either way CAP11 will resist Rock, while Gyarados and Togekiss are weak to it; Volt Absorb has nothing to do with that.Volt Absorb will also make many CAP11+Gyarados since CAP11 resist Rock attacks which Jolteon doesn't. Think about it!
No clue what you're talking about here; what does Jolteon not resisting Rock attacks have to do with how well CAP11 and Gyarados work as partners? And if you meant Gyarados, I'm still not sure what you're point is, as either way CAP11 will resist Rock, while Gyarados and Togekiss are weak to it; Volt Absorb has nothing to do with that.
I think it's less "I should've voted for ground", and more "I want something that's immune to electric, but resistant to rock, and without an ice weakness"...arguably something that would pair well, in theory, with Togekiss, but it really seems like "I want all of the good with none of the bad".
But Motor Drive does make it Great Pokemon even without Togekiss! That's my point!and design the perfect teammate for it
No clue what you're talking about here; what does Jolteon not resisting Rock attacks have to do with how well CAP11 and Gyarados work as partners? And if you meant Gyarados, I'm still not sure what you're point is, as either way CAP11 will resist Rock, while Gyarados and Togekiss are weak to it; Volt Absorb has nothing to do with that.
But Motor Drive does make it Great Pokemon even without Togekiss! That's my point!
ShockProof doesn't take Electivires and Jolteons place in Gyarados' heart!
I meant that Jolteon and Electivire can get killed by Stone Edge while CAP11 just barely get scratched. Motor Drive CAP11 will not only take Gyarados as perfect partner, it will also eliminate the few uses of Electivire and Jolteon
ShockProof will get little damage by Electric attacks, but not gain from them. That makes Electivire and Jolteon better choices as Gyarados' teammates and Togekiss can keep CAP11 for herself at most.
Maybe I'm too active on this Project...
All calcs are tested against standard Smogon sets.
[I]
[B]+0 Aura Sphere vs. All forms of Tyranitar: [COLOR=Red]OHKO[/COLOR][/B]
[B]+0 Aura Sphere vs. All forms of Lucario: [COLOR=Red]OHKO[/COLOR][/B]
+0 Aura Sphere vs. Lead Empoleon: [COLOR=DarkOrange]94.8% - 112.1%[/COLOR]
+0 Aura Sphere vs. Defensive Penguin Empoleon (most defensive set): [COLOR=DarkOrchid]72.6% - 86%[/COLOR]
[B]+0 Aura Sphere vs. Physically Based MixApe (this will be around the same for all types of Infernape): [COLOR=DarkOrchid]83.3% - 98.3%[/COLOR][/B]
+0 Aura Sphere vs. Scarf Heatran: [COLOR=Red]107.7% - 126.9%[/COLOR]
+0 Aura Sphere vs. SubSeed Breloom: [COLOR=DarkOrchid]77.8% - 91.9%[/COLOR]
+0 Aura Sphere vs. RestTalk Heatran: [COLOR=DarkOrchid]68.6% - 81%[/COLOR]
+0 Aura Sphere vs. Physically Defensive Forretress: [COLOR=DarkOrchid]70.1% - 83.1%[/COLOR]
[B]+0 Aura Sphere vs. Specially Defensive Forretress: 45.8% - 54.2%
+0 Aura Sphere vs. Spiker Skarmory: [COLOR=DarkOrchid]65.9% - 78.1%[/COLOR][/B]
[B]+0 Aura Sphere vs. CB Scizor: [COLOR=DarkOrchid]57.7% - 68.2%[/COLOR][/B]
+0 Aura Sphere vs. Scarf Metagross: [COLOR=DarkOrchid]58.8% - 69.5%[/COLOR]
+0 Aura Sphere vs. AgiliGross: [COLOR=DarkOrchid]55% - 65%[/COLOR]
+0 Aura Sphere vs. Lead Metagross: [COLOR=Blue]49.9% - 59%[/COLOR]
[B]+0 Aura Sphere vs. Specially Defensive Skarmory: 48.5% - 57.5%[/B]
+0 Aura Sphere vs. MixPert Lead Swampert: 44.8% - 53%
+0 Aura Sphere vs. CursePert Swampert: 32.7% - 38.6%
[B]+0 Aura Sphere vs. AntiLead Machamp: 44% - 51.8%
+0 Aura Sphere vs. RestTalker Machamp: 49.2% - 58.1%[/B]
+0 Aura Sphere vs. Physical Wall Hippowdon: 46% - 54.3%
+0 Aura Sphere vs. Dual Screen Bronzong: 39.9% - 47%
+0 Aura Sphere vs. SubRoost Aerodactyl: [COLOR=Blue]55.2% - 65.4%[/COLOR]
+0 Aura Sphere vs. Lead Aerodactyl: [COLOR=DarkOrchid]69.5% - 81.8%[/COLOR]
+0 Aura Sphere vs. Standard Wish Vaporeon: 38.4% - 45.5%
+0 Aura Sphere vs. CroCune: 35.9% - 42.6%
[B]+0 Aura Sphere vs. CurseLax: 45.7% - 54.1%[/B]
+0 Aura Sphere vs. SubDD Kingdra: [COLOR=DarkOrchid]58.8% - 69.4%[/COLOR]
+0 Aura Sphere vs. RestTalk DD Kingdra: 48.6% - 57.6%
[B]+0 Aura Sphere vs. Specs Jolteon: [COLOR=DarkOrchid]63.1% - 74.5%[/COLOR][/B]
[B]+0 Aura Sphere vs. Scarf Jirachi: 48.4% - 57.2%[/B]
+0 Aura Sphere vs. Wish Support Jirachi: 38.2% - 44.9%
+0 Aura Sphere vs. Dual Screen Jirachi: 31.9% - 37.9%
[B]+0 Aura Sphere vs. Wish Blissey: 35.6% - 42.3%
+0 Aura Sphere vs. NP Sweeper Togekiss: 38.8% - 46%
+0 Aura Sphere vs. Flinch Togekiss: 28.9% - 34%[/B]
[B]+0 Dark Pulse vs. All forms of Starmie: [COLOR=Red]OHKO[/COLOR]
+0 Dark Pulse vs. All forms of Gengar: [COLOR=red]OHKO[/COLOR]
+0 Dark Pulse vs. Scarf Rotom-A: [COLOR=Red]114.5% - 135.3%[/COLOR][/B]
[B]+0 Dark Pulse vs. Specially Defensive Zapdos: 30.5% - 36%
+0 Dark Pulse vs. SubRoost Zapdos: 43.4% - 51.5%
+0 Dark Pulse vs. Offensive Zapdos: [COLOR=Blue]49.8% - 59.2%[/COLOR][/B]
+0 Dark Pulse vs. TSpiker Tentacruel: 28% - 33%
+0 Dark Pulse vs. RestTalk Rotom-A (most defensive): [COLOR=DarkOrchid]73.7% - 87.5%[/COLOR]
[B]+0 Dark Pulse vs. Offensive DD Gyarados: 43.8% - 52%
+0 Dark Pulse vs. RestTalk Gyarados: 36.9% - 43.8%[/B]
+0 Dark Pulse vs. Tank Dusknoir: [COLOR=DarkOrchid]76.2% - 90.5%[/COLOR]
[B]+0 Dark Pulse vs. Defensive Celebi: [COLOR=DarkOrchid]71.8% - 85.1%[/COLOR]
+0 Dark Pulse vs. DD Dragonite: 37.6% - 44.6%
+0 Dark Pulse vs. RestTalk Spiritomb: 36.8% - 43.8%[/B]
[B]+0 Close Combat vs. Wish Blissey: [COLOR=DarkOrchid]74.2% - 87.7%[/COLOR][/B]
[B]+0 Hidden Power Ice vs. DD Dragonite: [COLOR=DarkOrange]88.1% - 104.7%[/COLOR][/B]
[/I]
That's a good thing. You don't want to make a Pokemon that's completely and utterly useless without its partner. That's simply not feasible.Con's - Do you know how common Thunderbolt is? This thing would be a great partner to pretty much every water in the game, especially Gyarados.
Ah; that makes more sense. But even in that case, that really goes without saying, as most of the Pokemon that tend to use Electric attacks don't have a Rock-attack--Zapdos, Rotom-A, Gengar, Jolteon, Electivire, Vaporeon, Magnezone, and Starmie all rarely, if ever, run Rock-typed moves. Volt Absorb, Shockproof or neither, and Fighting-type or none, there really isn't any worry about a Rock-type attack from these Pokemon anyway.I think what he's trying to say is that you will be able to switch into CAP 11 into an electric move straight from Gyarados without fear of a rock type move like Stone Edge.
Why Intimidate though? Most of the Pokemon that Togekiss has problems with are Special--Zapdos, Jolteon, Rotom-A, Starmie, and Gengar, to name a few. There are also Pokemon that Togekiss has problems with that are Physical, yes, but the ones that give it the most trouble tend to use Special Attacks more.I propose than any ability that absorbs/utilizes Electric attacks is more useful to Gyarados than Togekiss.
The ability should focus on something that Togekiss could benefit from, but not Gyarados, which is I support Intimidate. It could save Togekiss from crippling hits on the switch that would greatly increase its usefullness in supporting and hurting CAP11's counters that it has been designated to be able to handle. Also, most Pokemon looking to hurt Gyarados would not mind their Attack being lowered, as they already have to be able to counter Gyara through one Intimidate.
Why Intimidate though? Most of the Pokemon that Togekiss has problems with are Special--Zapdos, Jolteon, Rotom-A, Starmie, and Gengar, to name a few. There are also Pokemon that Togekiss has problems with that are Physical, yes, but the ones that give it the most trouble tend to use Special Attacks more.
Now, if someone were to propose and get a "Special Intimidate" checked out with Fuzznip and he accepted it, then I might be able to understand people getting behind something like that. But just normal Intimidate doesn't seem useful enough in stopping Togekiss's primary counters to me.
And while it works for Gyarados, it also works for Togekiss, which is the important thing--Togekiss and Gyarados share the same weaknesses bar one, so if we focus on making CAP11 not like to come in on the type of attacks that bother Gyarados, it also won't be able to come in on the ones that bother Kiss, and that's no good for this project. So, all we can do is focus more on the users of the moves, or in other words, the counters of Togekiss, instead of those of Gyarados.
If the project fails even then, and it still becomes a perfect-Gyarados partner instead of a Togekiss one, being seen loads more with the former than the latter, then it's pretty much just as (I believe) Objection's been saying: in that case, it really just says a lot about Togekiss's viability (or rather, the lack there of) in OU if we design something as the perfect partner for it, but it ends up being used with a different Pokemon instead, which has some of the same weakpoints (or in other words, that Togekiss simply isn't as viable as Gyarados, and because it shares the same weapoints as it, it was going to wind up being used more with Gyarados since the beginning, and the project was thus a failure ever since we picked a Pokemon with a common set of weaknesses like Togekiss, instead of something with a more unique set, like Armaldo).
With Fuzznip's permission:
Instead of Volt Absorb or Motor Drive, we could go with something a bit less powerful.
For example, something like Electric-type Heatproof. The Pokemon is dealt 50% less damage from Electric attacks. If you remember, I had already suggested such an ability for another CAP, and we had tentatitively called it Shockproof.
Since Heatproof also lowers Burn damage by half (a Heatproof Pokemon takes 1/16 of its HP as Burn damage rather than 1/8), we could do something similar for Paralysis as well. I have two options: either
1) Paralysis Speed loss is halved (meaning, the Pokemon has 50% of its Speed instead of 25% of its Speed when paralysed).
2) Chance of being fully-paralysed is halved (meaning, the Pokemon has a 12.5% chance of being fully paralysed instead of the usual 25%).
Of course, we could just choose for the Pokemon to take 50% less damage from Electric attacks and that's it.
I see Motor Drive and Volt Absorb as being simply too powerful. I prefer something like this.
| Gengar | Move | Shadow Ball | 95.9 |
| Gengar | Move | Focus Blast | 74.1 |
| Gengar | Move | Thunderbolt | 49.0 |
| Gengar | Move | Substitute | 36.6 |
| Gengar | Item | Life Orb | 45.1 |
| Gengar | Item | Leftovers | 16.1 |
| Gengar | Item | Choice Scarf | 15.0 |
But Motor Drive does make it Great Pokemon even without Togekiss! That's my point!
ShockProof doesn't take Electivires and Jolteons place in Gyarados' heart!
I meant that Jolteon and Electivire can get killed by Stone Edge while CAP11 just barely get scratched. Motor Drive CAP11 will not only take Gyarados as perfect partner, it will also eliminate the few uses of Electivire and Jolteon.
ShockProof will get little damage by Electric attacks, but not gain from them. That makes Electivire and Jolteon better choices as Gyarados' teammates and Togekiss can keep CAP11 for herself at most.
Maybe I'm too active on this Project...
OH WAIT. GYARADOS?
Seriously. You have a Gyarados, who STILL FAILS TO ROTOM, GENGAR, STARMIE AND ZAPDOS.
Guess what? You've now wasted a Team slot attempting to get CAP11 a free speed boost. Since Gyarados is not breaking the walls that can stop CAP11, nor it CAP11 aiding Gyarados' sweep as effectively since you're not killing Cune or Swampert. Also guess what - we have base 105 SpA maximum. Good luck even TRYING to sweep whole teams without Togekiss' Nasty Plot Boost. You now have a really fast Pokemon that can't 2HKO anything. Want a medal?
I support Scrappy.
All the hype about Electric-negating abilities is getting boring and doesn't really help. Besides, either Shockproof or Volt Absorb (Motor Drive is just ridiculous) really won't help with Gengar, who typically carries Focus Blast.
Those calc are rather scary. But.
After CAP 11 kills something, in switches a pokemon capable of taking a hit and OHKOing (and there are several). CAP 11 is OHKOing Tyranitar, Lucario, Starmie, and Gengar (and two other things or something).
Those scary calcs show 2HKOs or 3HKOes or less for, like, far more than those OHKOes (which are frail pokemon or pokemon with weaknesses, anyway). CAP 11 cannot sweep without a NP Pass from Kiss.
Holy shit, bro. You need to relax and maybe take a break from your real-fake metagames.Rage Incarnate.