Rematches

I'm sure it's happened to you many times before: you look for a battle on the Shoddy Battle ladder, only to find that your opponent is the same as before. Although rematches are usually an annoyance, they cause battles to play out in different and, in some cases, more interesting ways.

Rematches have several effects on how the battle turns out, most of which come from the fact that both players know each others' teams. One effect is that luring usually fails. If one has used a lure in the earlier match, ones opponent will know about it and avoid switching in the Pokemon that the lure can usually beat but the standard set cannot. This makes it more difficult for the lure user to eliminate his or her main sweeper's counters and get a sweep. Another effect is that scouting Pokemon and moves are less useful. While using U-turn to scout in a normal match is a good strategy early-game, it is not as good a strategy in a rematch because the benefit from forcing a switch is less. What type of team benefits the most in the "rematch metagame?" Definitely stall. Stall teams rarely use lures or scouting Pokemon, and are the main targets for lures' surprise kills.

A third effect on how a match plays out is that predictions become much more important and generally more risky. In a non-rematch, most players are inclined to predict conservatively early-game and use the moves that do the most damage on average. But in a rematch, a player knows what damages his or her opponent's team the most, and this might not be the same move as the conservative move from earlier. Also, both players know what Pokemon their opponents switched into conservatively-picked moves in the first match, and are more likely to pick more focused moves or switch in different Pokemon from before. In rematches, prediction goes to more levels.

How does one benefit from the changes in play when playing a rematch? Knowledge of ones opponent's team is very powerful if your opponent does not know yours. On the lesser-played ladders, it is a good strategy to have multiple teams and to switch to a different team after each match. If your opponent uses the same team as before, you will immediately have an advantage. One can also change ones team in minor ways between matches, switching sets to surprise ones opponent and KO the main threats to ones team. As mentioned earlier, these techniques are only useful on ladders other than the main OU ladder.

What are your experiences with rematches? What techniques do you use to win them? In what other ways does the "rematch metagame" differ from the normal metagame?
 
i just play the same as always as if i didn't know their team. you have to bet that the other player will play to outpredict you, so just play like normal and youll end up having the opponent overpredict. that being said, its extremely helpful to know exactly what is waiting for you this game, and to build a strategy early off of that.
 
Rematches are much more competitive than normal matches because neither side can rely on surprise gimmicks or even hidden lategame sweepers anymore. If you know they have a lucario waiting in the wings you're going to do your damn best to keep you Gliscor, whereas without that knowledge you might be more willing to sac it for some other advantage. You and your opponent are also going to be aware of each other's playstyles and skill levels, making prediction easier.
This is why most tournaments in other games are "best of x games" rather than single elimination (something which I think we need to change...)
 
I despise rematches, I usually wait a while before clicking the Find Match button again, even going as far as waiting for my previous opponent to enter another battle first.

That said, in most rematches I try to remember whatever it was that gave my team trouble before, and then do my utmost to keep my counter healthy. I pull a lot of double switches and am sometimes liable to overpredict. I even surprise my opponents by using moves or switches that I didn't use before. Once an opponent thinks they've got you all figured out, that's when opportunity's ripe to pull off the biggest upset.
 
In my experience, unless there is a large CRE difference, I usually split rematches (the winner of the first match loses the second). I guess the reason would be that the loser tries to play differently in order to get around the obstacles they failed to beat in the first match, while the winner tends to play the same to recreate the same win condition.

@Fatecrashers: I do the exact same things to avoid rematches. They tend to be characterized by overpredictions and are therefore less fun. I also play all three tiers and switch between them after every match just to decrease the chance of rematches. This of course increases my chance of bringing my UU team to Ubers, but that is a risk I am willing to take.
 
I despise rematches, I usually wait a while before clicking the Find Match button again, even going as far as waiting for my previous opponent to enter another battle first.

That said, in most rematches I try to remember whatever it was that gave my team trouble before, and then do my utmost to keep my counter healthy. I pull a lot of double switches and am sometimes liable to overpredict. I even surprise my opponents by using moves or switches that I didn't use before. Once an opponent thinks they've got you all figured out, that's when opportunity's ripe to pull off the biggest upset.

This.

Usually when I get the same opponent, I try to outpredict them but must not over predict. Lots of different events occur from the first match, since we would know each other's moves, though overpredicting this switch usually gets me into a bad sitchuation.
 
Brief Off-topic: The ladder needs to have some sort of modification that prevents excessive rematches. I had four matches against one guy earlier today.

Anyways, rematches are generally better battles for me. There's zero gimmick effect, so if a set is truly effective, it will be viable the second time around. Prediction battles and mindgames are more prevalent, sometimes working against the player who tries to play those games if someone feigns ignorance of a team. You'll know directly how much damage an attack will do in a certain situation, so you can make better informed decisions that in turn make a better battle.
 
I mix up my gameplay, as in at times I will do what I did in the previous match, and then later not do what I did, so it keeps them guessing as always. It really depends on the first few moves. U-Turn makes rematches hell.
 
I think rematches usually make for some really wicked predictions. If you look at like half the uber warstorys there so good because of all the wicked predictions due to both players having intimate knowledge of each others teams.
 
Sometimes it makes for better battles because of the added layer of uncertainty and strategy; will they overpredict with the knowledge they have of your team, or will they do what they would've normally done had they not known?

But sometimes your opponent can get predictable if he's bad at mixing it up, which can make for a boring match...
 
If I end up rematching someone, I play as if I didn't know the opponent's team, but I usually do what Fatecrashers does and wait a while before finding another match.
 
i reckon names should be hidden so you don't know who you are battling so u wont know its a rematch unless u remember their teams
 
well its kinda funny cause on Ubers this happens a lot. me and Twink (on shoddy) would battle each other and then (simply because I guess we had more than one uber team) we would throw on another team and get matched up again due to the small number of Uber players on the ladder. In this senerio there were way more predictions as although we knew that we were running different teams, we each knew each others style of play and what type of player they were (eg conservative, takes risked etc etc). I love rematchs most of the time however if I keep getting outclassed by an opponent I will concede defeat and give the ladder a rest for a while.
 
This is one of the reasons why stall is so strong. They play the same every time.

But seriously guys, calling prediction and overprediction strategy? It's glorified guess work. When I play rematches, when I have a decision that can go one way or another in a rematch, I flip a coin. Regardless of the outcome, you save time not having to think meaning you have more time for laddering.
 
i just play the same as always as if i didn't know their team. you have to bet that the other player will play to outpredict you, so just play like normal and youll end up having the opponent overpredict. that being said, its extremely helpful to know exactly what is waiting for you this game, and to build a strategy early off of that.
This is what I do when I get a rematch, the overprediction will usually hurt the other player badly.

This is one of the reasons why stall is so strong. They play the same every time.

But seriously guys, calling prediction and overprediction strategy? It's glorified guess work. When I play rematches, when I have a decision that can go one way or another in a rematch, I flip a coin. Regardless of the outcome, you save time not having to think meaning you have more time for laddering.
Glorified guess work? Don't be stupid, your reason for using a coinflip is to save time but since you aren't actually thinking about what the opponent will do you'll end up losing more matches than winning and "more time for ladder" won't matter because of the amount of losses you will gain by relying on a coinflip.
 
why do you assume I end up losing more matches than winning? I split my rematches if the team is as strong as mine. That ratio is a lot better than people who try to overthink things.

Lets take a situation. I have a LO starmie out. It's at 60% life. It has hydro pump and thunderbolt. My opponent has a gyrados out. Because it is a rematch I know that this gyrados is a DD LO with stone edge. Both me and my opponent have more pokemon alive. I also know he has a choice scarf tyranitar waiting in the wings at around 70% life. What are you going to do? 4 things are going to happen here. starmie thunderbolts, he stays in and loses gyarados. You thunderbolt, he switches in tyranitar you lose starmie. you hydro pump he switches in tyranitar he loses tyranitar. you hydro pump, he stays in and DD's you lose starmie next turn to stone edge.

What are you going to do? Are you going to tell me anything you do here isn't a guess? Because all 4 options, with the data I've given you are equally likely to happen. Sure sure, if you could perform a psychological profile on your opponent and do a game theory analysis in the next 5 minutes, then that would not be a guess, but then I respond by saying, you just did a psychological profile and a complete analysis of a decision chart in 5 minutes. WHY ARE YOU PLAYING POKEMON AND NOT WORKING FOR THE GOVERNMENT?

That's the thing with rematches. If your team and your opponents team are equal in strength, its all going to come down basically to a coin flip. And again why stall is so strong at higher skill levels: because their playstyle does not have as many similar situations.

All you're doing is doing a glorified guess. don't be so full of yourself.
 
I don't really like rematches, as I would prefer to be up against a different opponent where I don't overpredict and he doesn't know as much about my team.

Prediction requires guessing. It's not so much knowing what your opponent will do, but considering what he might do, and acting accordingly. You can't precisely predict what your opponent will do even if you both know each others' teams exactly. I regard prediction as the opposite of conservative playing, with more risk but more reward, and that's definitely more present in rematches.
 
Poker has shown that mindgames are a perfectly reasonable competitive sport.

I never said it wasn't. But pokemon not so much. Poker is way more complicated than pokemon as well.
I have 2 friends who are professional poker players. They're good at poker not because of mindgames, but because they eliminate having to make guesses. Similiar to stall players at the top of the ladder, who play stall to eliminate having to guess
 
I like rematches as they're typically harder than normal ladder matches. Obviously, a lot more prediction is needed and so mindgames ensure.

I personally don't quit them and just play. Mostly the other person quits but I've had some really fun battles that are rematches, too.
 
Stall definitely gains an advantage in rematches, mostly because of what you mentioned: lures. They just don't work as well the second time around. Stall is just so much more consistent and relies almost entirely on being unsurprising. I remember I once played 4 times in a row with the same person. I lost the first match due to a crit right off the bat to make it 6-5. Thus my necessary answer to his Jirachi was gone, and I was Iron Headed to death. The next match I was rather outpredicted and MixApe'd to death though I survived the Jirachi assault due to my overvaluation of Blissey against his team. The next two matches I dominated due to my knowledge of threatening sweepers and which of my pokemon were most relevant to answer his assaults, even when I was outpredicted. Moral: stall is more consistent but doesn't necessarily help you against unknown teams.

I love rematches. They are the most fun, when both players take risks to see what happens with full knowledge of their opponent's team.
 
Just talk smack to everyone you play, then when the rematch occurs they'll know how inferior they are ahead of time. If they don't instantly rage quit, you get the satisfaction of reassuring them all over again!

Warning: May backfire horribly leaving you feeling slightly worse about yourself. Beware ;)
 
why do you assume I end up losing more matches than winning? I split my rematches if the team is as strong as mine. That ratio is a lot better than people who try to overthink things. I obviously assume this because you coin flip instead of thinking the situation through. Then again it is ladder and the majority of opponents are not the smartest so it might actually work.

Lets take a situation. I have a LO starmie out. It's at 60% life. It has hydro pump and thunderbolt. My opponent has a gyrados out. Because it is a rematch I know that this gyrados is a DD LO with stone edge. Both me and my opponent have more pokemon alive. I also know he has a choice scarf tyranitar waiting in the wings at around 70% life. What are you going to do? 4 things are going to happen here. starmie thunderbolts, he stays in and loses gyarados. You thunderbolt, he switches in tyranitar you lose starmie. you hydro pump he switches in tyranitar he loses tyranitar. you hydro pump, he stays in and DD's you lose starmie next turn to stone edge.

What are you going to do? Are you going to tell me anything you do here isn't a guess? Because all 4 options, with the data I've given you are equally likely to happen. Sure sure, if you could perform a psychological profile on your opponent and do a game theory analysis in the next 5 minutes, then that would not be a guess, but then I respond by saying, you just did a psychological profile and a complete analysis of a decision chart in 5 minutes. WHY ARE YOU PLAYING POKEMON AND NOT WORKING FOR THE GOVERNMENT? What I would do here isn't a guess, in a guess you don't really think about consequences or what will help in the long run like what you do with prediction. The amount of data you have given also isn't all I would have in a battle, what do I have to possibly double switch to? Is Stealth Rock up? How much HP does Gyarados have? What did I do in the last game and what did my opponent do in the last game? There are more things to consider here than just what you had come up with.

That's the thing with rematches. If your team and your opponents team are equal in strength, its all going to come down basically to a coin flip. And again why stall is so strong at higher skill levels: because their playstyle does not have as many similar situations. This is ladder, your team and your opponent's team will often not by equal in strength. Team matchups are very big in this generation and can decide matches themselves.

All you're doing is doing a glorified guess. don't be so full of yourself. lol?
 
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