-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
NP: UU - Silent Night
- Thread starter reachzero
- Start date
- Status
Yes, and in those very same posts, I've stated over and over again that "obscure" and "impractical" are mutually exclusive. Unlike Porygon-2, Shuca Berry Lantern, or other bullshit of that nature, you can use OU tanks to beat an OU Pokemon, using methods that work very well for things other than just beating that Pokemon.
We're getting a little off track here, but my original argument was that if you are completely incapable of countering something with conventional, and more importantly, practical methods, then you have the right to complain that Pokemon is too overpowered for the tier. That doesn't apply to Gengar because it has a good number of viable checks AND counters to get by. That's all I'm saying.
Dude, that's exactly what an Uber Pokemon is. If you can bring a Pokemon in on something it will kill, and has a good chance of killing almost anything else you bring in to stop it, that's an Uber (or in this context, BL).
Yeah, let's not get into counter/check semantics here.
And Aggron also got rid of a potential threat (Swellow is very fast and can be dangerous after all). If your team hates Swellow/Scyther Aggron did the job. If not.. . well, probably the offense gets the benefit. It really depends on the team.
Aggron still has his best trait IMO (switching in on Choiced pokes), and Choiced pokes are somewhat common on offense teams. Thus warranting at least one more switch in on most teams (provided that attack isn't Leaf Storm, Fire Blast or something like that of course).
Also, Lead Ambipom (commonly seen on offense teams) does not carry Low Kick that often anymore. And there's Arcanine as well. And Spiritomb who's completely walled by it (yes, Spiritomb is seen on offense). There's others, but hey.
Also, take your chances: prepare for CB Aggron, and you can meet RP Aggron instead which can be devastating. Again, it depends of your team.
Though all that i'm stating does not imply Aggron is hard to take down (because... it isn't) or nothing like that: and indeed Aggron (CB one) is a lot more valuable against balanced/stall teams.
I'm sorry cape, but I don't want misunderstandings to possibly change the outcome of a vote (Even though it might already have):
Unfortunately, the definitions of an Uber does not say "A Pokemon is Uber if, no Pokemon can switch it under common battle conditions safely". The Characteristics of an Uber does not say this, and does not imply it, otherwise, you'd be banning about 3x the amount of Pokemon we are banning now. Okay, for those of you pissed off with me using OU comparisons, let's make a few closer to home. How about something like CB Ursaring?? With CB attached, it is perfectly capable of 2HKOing everything on your team with its huge power and great coverage. It is bulky enough to take one or two neutral hits too. There are no "counters" in the strictest definition of the word for Ursaring. I don't think we're banning Ursaring any time soon. Hell, even take Dragonair. Mixed Dragonair serves the same purpose as MixMence, and nothing is a "counter" in the strictest sense of the word. We're not banning Dragonair any time soon either.
Unfortunately, the definitions of an Uber does not say "A Pokemon is Uber if, no Pokemon can switch it under common battle conditions safely". The Characteristics of an Uber does not say this, and does not imply it, otherwise, you'd be banning about 3x the amount of Pokemon we are banning now. Okay, for those of you pissed off with me using OU comparisons, let's make a few closer to home. How about something like CB Ursaring?? With CB attached, it is perfectly capable of 2HKOing everything on your team with its huge power and great coverage. It is bulky enough to take one or two neutral hits too. There are no "counters" in the strictest definition of the word for Ursaring. I don't think we're banning Ursaring any time soon. Hell, even take Dragonair. Mixed Dragonair serves the same purpose as MixMence, and nothing is a "counter" in the strictest sense of the word. We're not banning Dragonair any time soon either.
Shrang, CB Urasaring was a terrible choice for your argument. On top of it granting a shitload of free switch-ins thanks to the numerous immunities of Earthquake/Return/Close Combat/Fire Punch, it's locked into one move AND has no Speed behind it. I've mentioned numerous times that it's Alakazam's all around performance that makes it broken. It doesn't have to rely on choice sets to get KO's, it has enough power to get by. And that Speed is just there as the cherry on top.
I don't care about the details of "Oh, Kazam has higher Speed". As if Speed is everything. The point is that nothing is a "safe switch-in" to Ursaring, and SJC was saying if you can't counter it, it should be banned. This is similar to the Breloom vs Venusaur thing too. I don't care if Breloom has less Speed and can't go mixed. It still does the same thing Venusaur is proposed "broken" to do, which is Sleeping things and punching (no pun intended) big holes into the opposition. The stuff like stats are irrelevant to me, what they end up doing is what I'm concerned with. I will agree Alakazam is definitely a whole different level from CB Ursaring, but that wasn't my point.
EDIT: So yeah, I picked that "horrible example" for a purpose, hopefully you guys can see what that purpose was
EDIT: So yeah, I picked that "horrible example" for a purpose, hopefully you guys can see what that purpose was
There are plenty of things the Uber characteristics does not account for, and the whole "no counters deal" is most likely why we've had to ban Latias under the Support Characteristic, even though we know that it just plain outsped, out-muscled, and out-bulked the entire tier. Salamence didn't even have a defined characteristic and we sent it packing. Garchomp was around before we even had the Uber characteristics and we banned it simply because there was no way to stop it once it was in. Manaphy is in the same boat.
It's been stated time and time again the that Uber characteristics are mere guidelines and always have been. Simply put, we've been judging on the basis of 'no counters' for a while now, and it's perfectly rational: if you can't stop a Pokemon once it's in, despite your best efforts, while the rest of the tier can safely be countered, then why should we continue allowing that Pokemon in the standard metagame? I don't see anything wrong with banning something for overpowering the tier if it genuinely overpowers the tier.
I'm tired of repeating myself, so I'm just going to quote a post I made in another thread:
On that note Dragonair is not powerful, so it's really not going to kill anything (not to mention Altaria is better in every way). CB Ursaring has Spiritomb, Hitmontop, Rock types, and Steel types to deal with, each of which can come in on 2-3 of its four moves, force it out, and pivot if necessary. It may be powerful, but it's incredibly slow, not that bulky, and Normal STAB really isn't all that threatening, so you can't say it's going to force a lot of switches either. Basically, it's a generic powerhouse in a tier where other things do it way better and still aren't broken.
Again, 100% counters is not important. If a Pokemon has a weak list of checks and no counters to boot (Honch, Staraptor, Yanmega, etc.), it's at least worth looking into whether or not they might be bannable material (which I might add is often the case). Please stop taking my arguments out of context and look at the big picture for once.
This is the key here. The Uber characteristics imply this much more than "No counters = Ban". I fully agree that if it is too hard to stop, not "hard to find a safe switch-in", then it is perfectly bannable. Having to "sacrifice a Pokemon" in order to guarantee that you stop it does not fit this "too hard to stop" situation. Essentially, you're trading kills. Glad we came to a consensus.
Ok I really won't go through this load of posts that has appeared, nor will I try to counter every argument that says Alakazam / Leafeon / Venusaur /Aggron are BL because they most likely won't even be deemed suspects; so I'll just make something clear. CB Rampardos hits like a fucking truck, but it's NU. Point is, it might hit stuff with enough power to kill them 2 times, that doesn't make a pokémon BL. Loads of things have to be considered when pointing out something is broken (like the facts Aggron is 4x weak to Fighting and Ground, some of the most common PHYSICAL moves in the tier, that it has such a shitty special defense that anything with a STAB and a decent SpAtk will either OHKO or severely hurt it; and that outside of Head Smash, a move with unreliable accuracy and 8 scarce PP, Aggron isn't going to do shit to bulkier mons that don't bear weaknesses to one of his coverage moves).
thund where the fuck are you bringing in alakazam more than once? okay, come in on a will o wisp once and encore it. that's 37% of your health gone with stealth rocks up. and another 22% if you attack. totaling 59%. toxic does 6 + 12 + 18 + 10 + 12 = 58%. thunder wave obviously cripples you. alakazam needs to come in on a sacrificing, and its not like it will always get a kill once it is in. mispredict, forced out (psychicing a registeel, focus blasting a milotic, spiritomb, uxie, psychicing a mesprit, signal beaming an arcanine, etc). you have no arguement.
You're assuming I'm coming into a status move when I'm not? Zam can come in on double switches (all variants), support moves, set-up moves, and U-turn support (Uxie/Mesprit are great for this, and for more offensive teams Scyther and Swellow, who actually love Zam's ability to fuck their counters).
The whole point is that Substitute or Encore throw the entire "prediction" argument out the window.
The big problem I have with people comparing OU Pokemon to UU suspects is that there is a significant difference in the power level between the tiers. In UU, we don't have shit like Zapdos, Wish Jirachi, Blissey, and Tyranitar to stop threats without being gimmick options or completely unreliable. Back when Roserade was UU I used Wormadam to stop it because it was such a fucking pain, but in OU you have shit like Skarm, Bronzong, Blissey, etc that aren't dead weight against anything else. It isn't that hard to understand.
Sacrificing a Pokemon does not guarantee you stop it, it just means your Pokemon died. From there, I have the advantage and can do anything I want (like...switch). If said Pokemon indeed does not have counters, you can still bring it back in and repeat that scenario. BLs/Ubers do this already, and that's why they're banned.
Alakazam doesn't necessarily perpetuate this scenario because it's really hard for it to switch in and won't be able to take out anything bulky and not weak to its moves. You need MASSIVE prediction to get him to work. A player like Thund might have it, but it really does need a lot of support to do what it does.
As a matter of fact, I think the idea of "trading kills" actually has some merit when you apply it to Alakazam. It doesn't just kill stuff "for free", you have to put the work in for that Sub/Encore, etc. Even then, you can't always pull it off.
But if it does, that EDIT: shouldn't be an argument for a ban. A good example would have been saccing Pokemon X into LO Raikou, watch it get killed and then trapping it with Dugtrio. Problem with Raikou was that Duggy didn't always stop it, lol, ShucaKou said hi.
The difference between Venusaur and any other sleeper is versatility: you have to ensure that you can check physical and special variants as well as handle sleep. Other Pokemon, such as Ninetales and Yanmega, are extremely one-dimensional.
As for the other suspects, I think it's near-pointless to draw comparisons with other Pokemon to prove that X or Y is broken or not. If something is truly broken (or not), shouldn't you be able to explain why it is based on its merits alone? That, and comparing Pokemon to other Pokemon in order to prove a point usually just degenerates into debates over whether or not the Pokemon can be directly compared at all.
From a few pages back: move base power doesn't mean more than Atk. Double your Atk, double your damage. Double your base power, double your damage. The only difference is that differences in the base power of moves are easily more dramatic/significant than differences between Atk values (EVs are just 63 points, which is not even 50% of a stat like 200).
@SJCrew: Without intention to offend: please stop asserting your defintion of an Uber/BL as the standard one. If you have an issue with banning rules and the Uber characteristics etc., take it up with policy review. Otherwise, fit your argument into the context of the characteristics. A Pokemon having no counters does not imply that it is BL.
@Thund a few pages back: Usage stats for Skuntank don't matter. Just because a potential counter for Alakazam isn't being used doesn't mean Alakazam doesn't have to worry about that counter with regard to BL status. Unless of course the Pokemon is not generally viable and is too Alakazam-specific.
@SJCrew: Without intention to offend: please stop asserting your defintion of an Uber/BL as the standard one. If you have an issue with banning rules and the Uber characteristics etc., take it up with policy review. Otherwise, fit your argument into the context of the characteristics. A Pokemon having no counters does not imply that it is BL.
@Thund a few pages back: Usage stats for Skuntank don't matter. Just because a potential counter for Alakazam isn't being used doesn't mean Alakazam doesn't have to worry about that counter with regard to BL status. Unless of course the Pokemon is not generally viable and is too Alakazam-specific.
Yea i don't like comparisons as an argument by itself, especially if the other pokemon is on another metagame. Let's face it, people who try to prove something to be suspect worthy based on another pokemon from another metagame (OU) will never have a legit reasoning.
I know Venusaur is not going to get the support it wants but people really need to understand how it's suspect worthy. Thoughts on other suspects since i'm bored and want to kill time before I go somewhere:
aggron
let's be serious here now; it hits hard with head smash, yes. unfortunately that's not sufficient amount of proof to tell us that it can consistently open up oppurtunities for another pokemon to sweep. you can't just nominate something because it breaks down walls, you have to prove that he can consistently do it. can he really do it? not really. base 50 speed, lack of good typing in this metagame (water and grass are the best imo) discourages it from switching in attacks. with that said, it simply does not fit the smogon's standards of support charactersitc for the simple fact of not having to consistently do it.
damp rock
this one is obviously very close to my heart since i brought it up way back then. i hated it to the guts. it is true damp rock is a suspect candidate, but unfortunately, it willl not gain a sufficient amount of support to be considered a suspect. i definitely want to keep this style of play quiet. it was really only destructive when it made noise in the mega thread, but otherwise its been a silent killer. when the metagame trend actually sees more rain uses, maybe i'll nominate it again but it's been pretty rare for it to merit a vote.
leafeon
another vote by DA. honestly, it is strong yes. however can it really sweep the metagame with little effort? we must take these characteristics and take it literally. the damage output looks promising once it gets the boost. but let's be serious, how easy is it to set up Swords Dance? especially in common battle conditions. with the current metagame, it is difficult to set up, maybe milotic? but it really can't switch in as it takes 70% from ice beam as it attempts to set up. other pokemon will not give it a chance to set up. with that said, it really can't sweep teams with little effort. without a boost, leafeon is quite weak with lead blade as a stab and double-edge as a secondary. not to mention it is walled by registeel, so the little effort section does not apply here. it WILL sweep with effort if your team does not have a check, but that does not apply in common battle conditions.
alakazam
a suspect by thund. similar to leafeon, it cannot sweet teams with very little effort. it really does have some hard checks, namely spiritomb who is gaining rise in usage, which ultimately makes alakazam sweeps more difficult. can it really sweep by itself with little effort? not really, you need lures, heavy support to look at the entire team, etc. before you actually need to have that sweep. though this applies to most pokemon anyway. the fact of the matter is, alakazam will not sweep by itself with little effort, especially not with the omnipresent priority around + dedicated special walls to check it. it is powerful, but i just don't think it needs to be suspect.
I know Venusaur is not going to get the support it wants but people really need to understand how it's suspect worthy. Thoughts on other suspects since i'm bored and want to kill time before I go somewhere:
aggron
let's be serious here now; it hits hard with head smash, yes. unfortunately that's not sufficient amount of proof to tell us that it can consistently open up oppurtunities for another pokemon to sweep. you can't just nominate something because it breaks down walls, you have to prove that he can consistently do it. can he really do it? not really. base 50 speed, lack of good typing in this metagame (water and grass are the best imo) discourages it from switching in attacks. with that said, it simply does not fit the smogon's standards of support charactersitc for the simple fact of not having to consistently do it.
damp rock
this one is obviously very close to my heart since i brought it up way back then. i hated it to the guts. it is true damp rock is a suspect candidate, but unfortunately, it willl not gain a sufficient amount of support to be considered a suspect. i definitely want to keep this style of play quiet. it was really only destructive when it made noise in the mega thread, but otherwise its been a silent killer. when the metagame trend actually sees more rain uses, maybe i'll nominate it again but it's been pretty rare for it to merit a vote.
leafeon
another vote by DA. honestly, it is strong yes. however can it really sweep the metagame with little effort? we must take these characteristics and take it literally. the damage output looks promising once it gets the boost. but let's be serious, how easy is it to set up Swords Dance? especially in common battle conditions. with the current metagame, it is difficult to set up, maybe milotic? but it really can't switch in as it takes 70% from ice beam as it attempts to set up. other pokemon will not give it a chance to set up. with that said, it really can't sweep teams with little effort. without a boost, leafeon is quite weak with lead blade as a stab and double-edge as a secondary. not to mention it is walled by registeel, so the little effort section does not apply here. it WILL sweep with effort if your team does not have a check, but that does not apply in common battle conditions.
alakazam
a suspect by thund. similar to leafeon, it cannot sweet teams with very little effort. it really does have some hard checks, namely spiritomb who is gaining rise in usage, which ultimately makes alakazam sweeps more difficult. can it really sweep by itself with little effort? not really, you need lures, heavy support to look at the entire team, etc. before you actually need to have that sweep. though this applies to most pokemon anyway. the fact of the matter is, alakazam will not sweep by itself with little effort, especially not with the omnipresent priority around + dedicated special walls to check it. it is powerful, but i just don't think it needs to be suspect.
heading out, will expand more later but i just want to say, i don't think any pokemon is suspect, but venusaur is as close as you get. i think aggron, leafeon, zam, etc nominations are a lot like my medicham one from a while ago which, yes they are strong, but have sufficient counters and methods of being stopped.
it hurts to diss myself and medicham but it must be done =[
it hurts to diss myself and medicham but it must be done =[
taking prediction out? you are using prediction to get in on said set up / support move. "what if" venusaur decides to power whip instead of swords dance? you can't say that you can predict your way in without taking damage...but the opponent is a robot.
u turn support is faulty. common mesprit uxie switch ins: spiritomb, registeel. and registeel and milotic love coming in on scyther; registeel hard walls swellow, and spiritomb can come in on facade/u turn and sucker punch ohko. alakazam is not suspect.
and you can't come in more than once with a double switch. like i said, your opponent isnt a robot. and alakazam can't have sub/encore/focus blast/psychic/signal beam/grass knot/calm mind @ life orb/leftovers. pick a set.
u turn support is faulty. common mesprit uxie switch ins: spiritomb, registeel. and registeel and milotic love coming in on scyther; registeel hard walls swellow, and spiritomb can come in on facade/u turn and sucker punch ohko. alakazam is not suspect.
and you can't come in more than once with a double switch. like i said, your opponent isnt a robot. and alakazam can't have sub/encore/focus blast/psychic/signal beam/grass knot/calm mind @ life orb/leftovers. pick a set.
There are a lot of bad UU players out there and even a lot of good UU players don't pay a lot of attention sometimes. This may have exaggerated the effectiveness of some of the more dangerous UUs.
Hell, look at Smurf and how many people he owned with a Nasty Plot Porygon-Z in the lead position a few months ago. Good players, even. But no one used that as an argument for Porygon-Z being BL afaik.
Hell, look at Smurf and how many people he owned with a Nasty Plot Porygon-Z in the lead position a few months ago. Good players, even. But no one used that as an argument for Porygon-Z being BL afaik.
And Venusaur can't have a set of SD/Power Whip/Sludge Bomb/Sleep Powder/Leaf Storm/Earthquake/Synthesis, if you wanna play it that way.
And Zam can do upwards of 48% to Bold Milo and 60+ to Registeel, so yeah I'd say those two Pokes love having Zam as a teammate.
It's a bit late but I have a problem with one of Thund's statements. You said that Alakazam only has one counter, but how can you disregard Chansey? Alakazam has no hope of breaking through Chansey and don't say it can dispose of it with trick because according to you, Zam's strongest sets are subbed. Chansey takes
(38.1% - 44.9%) from Focus Blast, a clear 3HKO.
Also, Focus Blast has a 54% chance of landing twice in a row, so Alakazam can't really beat down it's checks at least half of the time due to it's shoddy accuracy.
(38.1% - 44.9%) from Focus Blast, a clear 3HKO.
Also, Focus Blast has a 54% chance of landing twice in a row, so Alakazam can't really beat down it's checks at least half of the time due to it's shoddy accuracy.
Chansey is 2HKO'd by Modest LO FB and by +1 Timid FB, how is that a counter.
If you want to take accuracy into account, I can just say CB Rhyperior is much essayer to switch into now because of Stone Edge's shoddy accuracy.
I don't think it's quite comparable because of the chance of landing SE twice in a row is significantly higher than 54% (enough to make a difference)
LO Modest technically doesn't 2HKO (41.8% - 49.3%) but I guess you have a decent chance of 2HKO with entry hazards. I don't know why your so hung up on Modest because that speed cut hurts Alakazam badly anyway. Tying with Missy, Scyther and Manectric, and straight up losing to Dugtrio (Dugtrio should just EQ Zam) and Sceptile is not worth the potential chance of 2HKO Chansey with Focus Blast.
- Status