CAP 11 CAP 11 - Part 7a - Secondary Ability Discussion

[Fuzznip]

Discuss possible secondary abilities for this CAP. Don't suggest random abilities too please, back up your suggestions with competitive reasons. Keep it clean, don't hurt anyone, etc.

Our CAP so far:

Name: Perfect Mate

General Description: Pick a good-but-not-great OU pokemon, and design the perfect teammate for it, similar to the way Celebi & Heatran, or Blissey & Skarmory complement each other so well on competitive teams.

Justification:
This would allow us to explore in detail how synergy between two pokemon can be achieved, because currently there are only a few perfect teammates in OU. And depending on the base pokemon we choose to give a "perfect mate", we can open a new niche in the metagame based around the efficient pairing.
The niche we create will be inherently tied to an existing pokemon in the metagame, which should provide a natural limitation to prevent this concept from being broken or "too different" from standard OU.

Questions To Be Answered:

• Is the base pokemon's usefulness (and usage) in the metagame increased as a result of having a "perfect mate"?
• What strategies are more effective for the base pokemon, as a result of having a perfect teammate?
• What are the most effective aspects of the new pokemon, for purposes of making a great teammate with the base pokemon?
• Is the new pokemon viable in the metagame without the base pokemon as a teammate

Typing: Fighting/Dark
Stat Spread: 90 HP / 85 Atk / 80 Def / 105 SpA / 80 SpD / 110 Spe
Primary Ability: Volt Absorb

My post regarding custom abilities.

The Rules:

• Do not polljump. Suggesting that there are possibilities that CAP 9 got x move is fine, but suggesting that it should get x move is not.
• Threadhogging -- don't do it. Get your point across, defend it, and move on. I shouldn't see the same people posting the same stuff over and over again.
• Keep the discussion fresh. Don't discuss the same thing over and over again. If you have something new to post, post it. If not, think a little bit harder on your post, and make sure you are not threadhogging. In other words, don't bandwagon.
• If you're going to pm me with a custom ability, back it up with justification. Don't just suggest one. Explain why we should make a new ability, what it has to offer for the concept/metagame, and why an already existing ability can't perform adequately.

Have a good one.

 

[doominic77]

I think a good secondary ability would be No Guard. Missing can be a major game changer and with No Guard CAP 11 would get STAB Unmissable Focus Blasts which can punch a hole through any (non Ghost) enemy.

(Awsome first post)

 

[Naxte]

CAP11 is probably good with just Volt Absorb, IMO. However, if we do end up going with one, I'd like to bring Thick Fat back up. The key reason I'm interested is this ability is naturally the Ice-resistance. While Togekiss might not have as much of a problem with Ice-attacks as it does Electric ones, it is still weak to them, and it doesn't help that CAP11 is neutral to them.

In addition to just adding additional defensive-synergy, it adds a level of mindgame to the opponent. Right now, with just Volt Absorb, the Togekiss+CAP11 combo can work well against Pokemon like Starmie and Electivire if they use Thunderbolt/ThunderPunch, respectfully. However, as naturally people will know about this combo, once it's made, they'll just switch to using Ice Beam/Ice Punch more, neither of which the CAP11+Kiss combo like taking (and it doesn't help that Starmie's Ice Beam is just as powerful as its Tbolt). If CAP11 gets Thick Fat though, the opponent couldn't be sure which ability CAP11 would be running, which would make the combo more effective--with Thick Fat, CAP11 could cover either of Kiss's weaknesses, depending on which you are worried about more, and make it so that neither move is a generally safe option against the CAP11+Kiss combo.

Beyond that, the Ice-resistance that Thick Fat offers just in general is helpful for giving CAP11 another good method of achieving defensive synergy with Togekiss, creating mindgames with Pokemon that like to use the BoltBeam combo (that Togekiss is weak to both ways), making it so that they aren't safe with either choice. It's also helpful to stop Kiss counters like Rotom-H trying to create a large hole in the duo with stuff like Overheat and also helps CAP11 to fare better against stuff like Weavile, so I'd definitely support Thick Fat for a secondary ability.

 

[Ice-eyes]

But how does it specifically help the combo with Togekiss? No Guard does synergise well with Aura Sphere, though.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

No Secondary Ability

Perhaps this will come as a shock to some of you. Perhaps it won’t. Just let me explain. There is not really all that much of a reason for another ability. We already have an excellent ability in the form of Volt Absorb, which does everything we could want of it – Most importantly, it improves synergy with Togekiss, mainly defensively, which was considerably lacking from the typing. “Another option” is not really a justification – my reasoning follows thus:

If you will forgive me for making a pre-emptive judgement, there has been a tendency in recent CAPs to give an excellent ability that defines the concept perfectly, then in the secondary ability poll, we appear to give way to a swathe of other abilities that are only loosely justified by the concept. Look at Kitsunoh and Limber, or Krilowatt and Magic Guard. Both abilities have barely any relevance yet on the face of it are much more useful, but deviate to an unacceptable extent from the concept. I have a very cynical inkling of what is about to be suggested – Mold Breaker, Limber, and all sorts of abilities that only make the Pokemon better rather than the partnership. I want CAP11 to stay true to the concept, and we already have a fantastic ability that gives us everything we need. For flavour or otherwise, there are only two possibilities that can come of another ability – either we choose a less useful ability such as Thick Fat, which will see little use and we might as well have no secondary ability whatsoever, or we choose another ability, just as good if not better, but like I have already said, we already have the perfect ability for the concept. So our secondary ability will take CAP11 in a completely different direction, which is something I do not want to happen. This runs dangerously close to failing the concept, and I would prefer not to rely on the individual choice of people to make a Togekiss partner popular.

So as it stands, I can see no reason for another ability. If anybody can convince me that there is an ability out there that not only helps Togekiss as much as Volt Absorb, but does not exceed it in terms of utility, then I will gladly support it. I am open to suggestions, but as I have not found this ability myself, I remain doubtful of its existence.

 

[QuimicVital]

We need to resist Ice so I go with Thick Fat, to have an unpredictable sinergy.[/"extralargereasoning"]

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Lightningrod

Because it is as BMB said; CAP11 is good with just Volt Absorb. However, I'm not sold on NSA quite yet, because we can do something here that we've never done before: Give a CAP a useless competitive ability for flavor. Lightning Rod fits the flavor of already having Volt Absorb perfectly, and it might even be used on some bizarre doubles sets in SB2 whenever that comes out. I propose that we give this CAP Lightning Rod as a secondary ability so that we, like Gamefreak before us, can give a competitively-viable Pokemon a useless secondary ability.

Let's do it!

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Seeing as there isn't an "ice" equivalent to Volt Absorb, I'm having a harf time seeing any ability that works, defensively, even close to as effectively as Volt Absorb does. The closest we've got is thick fat, and that's not quite as good I don't think.


so that leaves the possibility of an OFFENSIVE ability, and I really don't see anything that synergizes super well with Togekiss unless an ability gets invented.


So.... I guess:
Thick fat or No Secondary Ability

 

[DetroitLolcat]

I would vote for No Secondary ability OR Lightning rod for lol reasons.

CAP11 is solely designed to be a perfect mate for Togekiss, and since it doesn't have to fill multiple roles, it doesn't need multiple abilities. Since Volt Absorb is good enough for CAP11's only role, we basically have a 'free space' for the secondary ability, so we can be fun and just throw in Lightningrod or some other useless ability.

We do not need two competitive abilities for a one-role pokemon.

 

[Leman]

I agree with No Secondary Ability/Lightning Rod. I don't see the point of Thick Fat. Yeah Togekiss has an Ice weakness, but Ice attacks are significantly weaker than Electric Attacks in OU. CAP11 can already eat most unSTABed Ice attacks anyways, and the Pokemon who do get STAB on it scared of Aura Sphere/AirSlash/Thunder Wave, so chances are they won't even be switching in to Togekiss.

 

[EdgeHead]

This may seem a little crazy, but I figure I'd at least throw it out there for discussion. What about Download for a secondary ability? The only pokemon that have access to it are the Porygon family, who really can't take advantage of it properly without physical attacking options and usually just go with Trace. Well, if CAP 11 gets Stone Edge (sorry if I'm poll-jumping) it could be just the edge (bad pun intended) needed to take on non-physically defensive Zapdos.

Don't flame too hard

 

[NTT]

I personally feel we need to keep any secondary ability centered towards furthering the concept. With this in mind, I propose Static:
-When initially discussing Togekiss' flaws, it's sub-par speed was routinely mentioned. CAP11 will be in switching into predicted Stone Edges and others oncoming stone edges and other physical attacks, Static can ease the reliance on TWave in terms of paralysis support.-
-It provides another way to punish Zapdos, who will no doubt begin to carry U-Turn in order to discern whether or not CAP11 is present on a team, or simply to flee while inflicting super effective damage.

Either that or I will support no secondary ability. I can't see any other ability (Aside from Thick Fat, see below) that's viable in the place of VA in terms of aiding the concept. I'm just worried if we give CAP11 something that increases it's viability too much in some other area aside from the intended core, it will end up like Krillowatt with it's intended purpose becoming a far inferior way of using it.

The other obvious choice is Thick Fat, which I don't like the idea of. The main reason we were addressing the electric weak in the primary ability was because of the harder hitting STAB users, since Rotom, Zapdos and Jolteon were always the focus of any proposed calcs. However there are only two OUs with ice typing- Mamoswine and Weavile. With their most powerful Ice STAB being ice fang and ice punch respectively, a pokemon with bulk comparable to machamp should not have a problem switching in on one of these attacks and either (excuse the poll jumping) outspeed and close combat or hit with a quad-strength vacuum wave (again respectively). Giving CAP11 an extra two resistances will only detract from the concept in my opinion.

That's the opinion of this insignificant newcomer anyway =P

 

[TubaKing]

Lightning Rod

Because it is as BMB said; CAP11 is good with just Volt Absorb. However, I'm not sold on NSA quite yet, because we can do something here that we've never done before: Give a CAP a useless competitive ability for flavor. Lightning Rod fits the flavor of already having Volt Absorb perfectly, and it might even be used on some bizarre doubles sets in SB2 whenever that comes out. I propose that we give this CAP Lightning Rod as a secondary ability so that we, like Gamefreak before us, can give a competitively-viable Pokemon a useless secondary ability.

Let's do it!

You do realize that Lightning Rod would give up CAP11's Electric immunity, right? That's much worse than having no secondary ability at all, in my opinion.

No Guard is a decent offensive option that, when paired with Dynamicpunch and/or Zap Cannon (which he may or may not get) could work well with Togekiss for the whole ParaFlinchUsion strategy, with CAP 11 using Dynamicpunch and Zap Cannon and Togekiss using Thunder Wave and Air Slash. I don't see how this idea in anyway makes CAP 11 a less viable partner with Togekiss, though this may grant him more independence, depending on which moves we give him.

Thick Fat is kinda of "meh" in my opinion. Resistance to Ice and Fire could be nice, but it's a really inferior option to Volt Absorb, seeing that most Ice Attacks are unSTABed and special, anyway. I would think that Thick Fat would make CAP 11 work better with Celebi than Togekiss, anyway.

I think that we should either go with no secondary ability or No Guard.
Volt Absorb is already perfect. No Guard would just be icing on the cake.

EDIT: 100% accurate Focus Blast is always nice too.

 

[FimPhym]

From what little I do know, I support no secondary ability.

Volt absorb is kind of a big deal, what a great ability! It is most likely a needless layer of incomplete information to give a pokemon with volt absorb another ability. Especially thickfat, which creates a fork of two types you should avoid. This isn't like levitate/heatproof bronzong where lack of levitate can be quite easily spotted and is a huge deal. A hypothetical thick fat/volt absorb mix would be potentially obnoxious.

Since I don't imagine CAP11 requires a guessing game on ability, I support no ability. A guessing game for the sake of a guessing game smacks of reflex buffing of the CAP. It is trivial to propose things that make a CAP stronger, it's harder to decide what is good enough to fulfill its role and no more.

If there is a particularly convincing reason to have another ability to specifically handle a troubling situation for togekiss, then I happily retract my stance.

 

[HeavyOctillery]

No secondary ability. Volt Absorb does everything necessary short of preventing Glare/Body Slam/Bounce hax (hence why I went with Shockproof to keep all paralysis at bay), so this thing really doesn't need anything else whatsoever. Adding Shockproof for a 2nd ability would be redundant at this point.

 

[toshimelonhead]

I support No Secondary Ability, as well. Togekiss can roost off basically any non-Electric attack thrown at it with little difficulty. With Volt Absorb taking care of that, there isn't much else that we need to cover ability wise. I don't want this to become another Krilowatt like other posters have said by putting another overpowered secondary ability on it.

 

[lati0s]

But how does it specifically help the combo with Togekiss? No Guard does synergise well with Aura Sphere, though.

Was this sarcasm? no guard has no synergy at all with aura sphere.

I think that No secondary ability would be good. Volt absorb already gives cap 11 a good way of dealing with electric types and most other things are already pretty well covered by the duo.

 

[Chameleon]

I support no secondary ability.
I know it's been done, but for this thread with commentary, some calcs for ice attackers faster than togekiss (because kiss can roost off its ice weakness):
vs. a 252/0/0 Neutral Natured Togekiss

252 Timid Starmie LO Ice Beam: 53.5% - 63.1%
---- Not too bad, because if starmie switches into a T-wave, it's ruined, into an air slash it will be 2HKOed (Modest, no sp.A EVs) with one LO recoil, or into a nasty plot in which case it takes 90.8% minimum from the next air slash (Modest, no sp.A EVs). Or kiss Baton Passes out if it has enough health. This is assuming standard LO starmie.

252 Timid Suicune LO Ice Beam: 49.7% - 58.8%
---- Barely a 2HKO with leftovers, but problematic without T-wave. Aren't bulky waters supposed to be a check for our duo (this is what I believe sets us apart from gyara's mate, if it matters)?

252 Jolly Weavile CB Ice Punch: 96.8% - 114.4%
252 Jolly Mamoswine CB Ice Fang: 88.8% - 104.8%
---- This is probably the most we are going to see, and they wreck us, even though they can't take much of a beating.

Weavile should be the only real trouble here, as it can 2HKO our duo with CB Ice Punch (which is easily walled by a ton of pokemon). Any priority fighting move can deal with him, and mamoswine is outsped by CAP11. I just think that Thick Fat adds overkill resistances and puts nearly every non-fighting check (even up to scarf Heatran) in trouble. The next most threatening Ice Beamers are the rare Jynx, Scarf Glaceon, and Porygon-Z.

I like static too because it passively spreads the paralysis togekiss loves, but I see both abilities falling into the position of Heatproof Bronzong: Rarely used and only used to feed off others using his better ability, making a one-shot surprise.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

You do realize that Lightning Rod would give up CAP11's Electric immunity, right? That's much worse than having no secondary ability at all, in my opinion.

You do realize that Lightningrod does absolutely nothing at all in singles, right?

 

[LeBron_James]

I support no secondary ability as Togekiss doesn't struggle too much with anything else and there is no real need for a secondary ability. Volt absorb does everything necessary and is such a great ability for this concept that most other abilities would never be used or not help togekiss.

 

[TubaKing]

You do realize that Lightningrod does absolutely nothing at all in singles, right?

Yes sir, but even in doubles I would think it to be more of a hindrance than anything.

We both realize that it's pretty useless, so why vote for it?

There are other abilities out there that have at least some use, though I'm sure we can both agree that everybody and his mother's dog is going to be using Volt Absorb. The vast majority thus far seems to be pulling for no secondary ability, anyway.

 

[Mektar]

I still support Marvel Scale. People keep forgetting that Toxic hinders Togekiss almost as much as Paralysis does! If we gave CAP11 Marvel Scale, it could take Toxics and get a passable (I think) defence boost to cover for one of Togekiss' most hindering stats. If Marvel Scale was chosen, it would also cover for Burn, Sleep, and Confusion, unlike Immunity.

 

[X-Act]

Any secondary ability would probably be overshadowed by Volt Absorb. Because of this, better than average abilities can be suggested and they still would probably not be used.

Because of this, I propose Wonder Guard. I'm sure people WILL use this over Volt Absorb!

Just kidding.

No secondary ability.

 

[Azule]

The only other type which needs covering majorly is Ice, and there isnt an ice typed Volt Absorb.Thick Fat is the closest it comes.

I dont want an offensive ability because it doesnt need it. So either Thick Fat or No Secondary Ability. I dont need to write a huge post on it, because its all stated above.

 

[Jebus McAzn]

I don't see a point in having a secondary ability to be honest, so I'll vote Lightningrod for flavor.